| Author | Message | ||
| Speakeasy Registered user Username: Speakeasy Post Number: 102 Registered: 9-2002 |
Lydell,Collenn,Loneviking,melissa and ladylittle. This is very hard for me to say. All of you have been wonderfull. But I have at this time am stopping for a while posting. I am very confused and mixed up. I am more debating all of you rather than trying to learn. Thanks for you input and kindness and friendship on this forum. I am more confused now than I have ever been. And more confused and unsure of ever attaining God's forgivness than ever. My heart is like what the bible says about the Nation of Israel. that "Your heart has become hardend" and that is what has happened to me. I have a hardend heart. Thanks again for all of your input and postings that you did with me. I will return sometime in a few months. I will always keep reading almost all of the threads as always. You guys have been great and great mentors. speakeasy | ||
| Cindy Registered user Username: Cindy Post Number: 575 Registered: 7-2000 |
Speakeasy... I sense your struggle may be a very real spritual warfare for your mind and emotions! Paul in Ephesians 6 writes: "For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms." Be assured... you would not even desire to be a Christian if God were not drawing you to Him! You are trying so hard and seem so frustrated in your search. It is time to relax and rest more in Jesus' promises! As you read this, please realize that if you knew me in actuality you would know I struggle with deep depression at times. I surely don't have it all figured out! But I am realizing feelings are not necessarily facts. The fact is that JESUS is LORD! HE has all things under His care and control--even when I don't understand everything. Some things that help me are: 1. Each morning, to put on the whole armor of God (Ephesians 4) All of the "armor" is focused on Christ... trusting in the TRUTH, RIGHTEOUSNESS, PEACE, and FAITH that is in JESUS! 2. Ask the Holy Spirit to be in charge of ALL of me...my mind, will, emotions, and body! 3. Confess my sins of selfishness, pride, bitterness, and rebellion. 4. Live in forgivesnesss of others...and of myself!. These are never done perfectly... but I know my life rests in Jesus, in HIS perfection! grace always, cindy | ||
| Cindy Registered user Username: Cindy Post Number: 576 Registered: 7-2000 |
Speakeasy, I posted my comments above before seeing yours.... Re: "I have a hardened heart".... Remember always, God's promise is to GIVE us an UNDIVIDED HEART and to put a NEW spirit in us; to REMOVE our hearts of STONE and GIVE us hearts of FLESH! (see Ezekiel 11:19,20 and Ezekiel 36:26,27). This has been realized in JESUS! Only HE accomplished the impossible--a completely undivided heart of loyalty and devotion to God. His gift to us is a softened heart. The Holy Spirit of the living God lives not on tablets of stone---but on tablets of human hearts (2 Corinthians 3)! The Holy Spirit alone gives us the promised REST. (Hebrews) Many years ago, after so long chasing after other desires, St.Augustine wrote these words: "My HEART is restless until it RESTS in YOU." grace always, cindy | ||
| Lydell Registered user Username: Lydell Post Number: 613 Registered: 7-2000 |
Speakeasy, none of us can "attain" God's forgiveness. To "attain" something means we have done some work to earn something. God's forgiveness happens immediately when we receive Christ into our hearts. It happens immediately whenver we ask for forgiveness when we have messed up. You can not earn it, you can not deserve it. It is HIS work, not yours. We may have a problem forgiving ourselves, but HE has ALREADY forgiven us so completely that, to Him, it is as if what we did never happened. I pray God will grant you guidance in learning to know Him as a person. | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 103 Registered: 4-2000 |
Cindy, Thanks for sharing that excellent quote from St. Augustine. | ||
| Speakeasy Registered user Username: Speakeasy Post Number: 104 Registered: 9-2002 |
I have been reading the bible for a few months since I have last posted in June. Is there in the bible anybody that kept the law and did not have Jesus as there Messiah and that person will be saved? Can I be saved apart from Christ? Like Paul wrote "If the Law can save you Jesus died for nothing" Is this true? speakeasy | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 721 Registered: 12-2003 |
Speakeasy, no one since Jesus was on earth and the new covenant was given has been saved without having Jesus as their Messiah. Paul even said that if we take back the requirements of the law after having the grace of Jesus, we fall from grace. (Galatians 5:4) Before Jesus came, the Jews who honored tha law were saved by the grace of Jesus because by honoring the law, they were anticipating the arrival of Jesus the Messiah. Once he came, the law ceased to have significance. He became the object of honor and worship instead of the law. Now salvation is only by faith in Christ alone. Colleen | ||
| Speakeasy Registered user Username: Speakeasy Post Number: 105 Registered: 9-2002 |
Then you believe what Paul wrote. "That if the law can save you then Christ died in vain" Would you agree if I can show you in the bible that people were saved outside the Law then what Paul wrote is not true. speakeasy | ||
| Speakeasy Registered user Username: Speakeasy Post Number: 106 Registered: 9-2002 |
Please do not think I am only hear to argue and trap people. I have many many concerns. And if I am going to trust a G-d for salvation. Then I better be fully trustworthy of that doctrine and teachings of that G-d. I will have to be proved that what ever I am told is the truth and not realize after I die it was all a lie. Because after you die it is a little late to then figure out you have been lied to. Do you agree? This search I have been on has been for more than 10 years. Of studying and searching for the truth and I have a long way to go. But any input on my question would be great. speakeasy | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 488 Registered: 7-2003 |
Your question may be addressed to Colleen, but my personal premise is the Bible is correct and if there is something that seems to contradict, then it is my understanding. I think Paul's point is exactly what you said...that people are saved OUTSIDE the law. Without the law...in Christ alone. People are saved by grace through faith period. The deeds of the law saves no one. (Romans 3:20) The New Covenant is abundantly clear that we are not saved by works, but by grace through faith. It is not anything we earn or we can boast about it. You can't take one verse, study the whole of the New Covenant...it is very consistent on that point. Personally, I can't say one part of the scripture is wrong because that puts me in a place to figure out what is true and what is false. It is a package. Either it is all true, or it is unreliable as an authority and each can pick and choose their own passages to support their own religious desires. My personal take... I'd rather take all sccripture and admit my own ignorance in understanding than to be so seemingly arrogant as to say I know which scriptures are "right" and which are "wrong". It's either the word of God or it isn't. | ||
| Sabra Registered user Username: Sabra Post Number: 188 Registered: 10-2001 |
I just think Paul is saying, plainly that if anyone could have kept the law perfectly they could have saved themselves and then Jesus would have had no reason to die. Then His death would be in vain if law keeping perfectly were doable. We can not do it from birth to death without ever messing up. If we say we have no sin we are liars and the truth is not in us. It is impossible, that is all Paul meant. He was adressing the Pharisee types that said "they had kept all the law since their birth" Nope, they didn't or Jesus would have left them to it. | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 385 Registered: 7-2003 |
Speakeasy, there is a much more fundamental question that every single person must answer, "Who is Jesus of Nazareth?" The correct answer to this question is ultimately the correct answer to the question you pose above. Without answering this question first, everything else you posit just becomes an unprofitable dispute about the Law. We have been clearly warned by the Word of God to avoid this: "10 But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and strife and disputes about the Law, for they are unprofitable and worthless. 10 Reject a factious man after a first and second warning, 11 knowing that such a man is perverted and is sinning, being self-condemned." Titus 3:9-11 (NASB) You see Speakeasy, salvation comes not just by intellectual assent that someone named Jesus lived and died, but by putting our full trust in Him alone as the LORD YHWH, God and saviour. When we trust in the LORD Jesus, Immanuel, God with us, He sends us the Holy Spirit Who is able to explain all things to us and give us the very mind of Christ. Without bowing before Jesus as our Lord and God, even as Thomas did, a person will never comprehend the beauty of His grace and salvation, nor will they ever comprehend how ALL the Law not only pointed to Him, but was fulfilled in Him. So I ask you Speakeasy, do you accept Jesus of Nazareth as the LORD YHWH, God with us in the flesh? Your answer to this question is FAR, FAR more important than all the disputes about the Law that one could ever raise. Chris | ||
| Speakeasy Registered user Username: Speakeasy Post Number: 107 Registered: 9-2002 |
Chris This is what I except. Matthew 11 27"All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him. Matthew 24 36"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. Matthew 26 53And Jesus said; Do you think I cannot call on my Father Mark 10 18"Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good--except my Father" John 3 35The Father loves his Son and has placed everything in his hands Luke 23 46Jesus called out with a loud voice, "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit." 1 Corinthians 1 1 Paul called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, 1 Corinthians 1 3 Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ. 2 Corinthians 1 2 Grace be to you and peace from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ. 3 Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Isaiah 43:10 ì Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me." Deuteronomy 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one Isaiah 46:9 Remember the former things, those of long ago; I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me. I hope this helps you. If you need more verses I can send them. speakesy | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 386 Registered: 7-2003 |
Speakeasy, you have listed several very important texts that point out two very important truths about God that are taught in many parts of scripture. The truths these texts teach are as follows: 1) There is only one God. 2) There are eternal personal distinctions between the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit (i.e. God is defined by the eternal personal relationships that are intrinsic to Him). However, you have failed to interact with the many scriptures that teach a third major truth about God: 3) The Father is God, the Son is God, and the Spirit is God. You have not dealt with truth #3 and therefore you have failed to answer the central question. I say again, you will profit nothing from endless debates about the Law if you refuse to acknowledge the absolute sovereignty, authority, divinity, and all sufficiency of Jesus Christ and fail to give Him His proper place as Lord and God. Speakeasy, do you accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and God? Chris | ||
| Speakeasy Registered user Username: Speakeasy Post Number: 108 Registered: 9-2002 |
If you are asking me. Is Jesus the True and Only Messiah and he is the one that can and will save you from your sins if you ask him into heart. And that it is his shed blood that saves me from my sin record. Yes you must confess that Jesus is the Christ Just as Peter did and Paul stated. Yes!! I except Jesus as my saviour and Lord and Master. What is your point? My question had nothing to do with what you asked. Speakeasy | ||
| Esther Registered user Username: Esther Post Number: 64 Registered: 5-2004 |
I'm going to post an excerpt from a couple of chapters of a book by Dave Hunt. Though I don't know about everything he says...these two chapters really meant alot to me, and so I copied them and carry them around in my Bible. I hope they will help, as they apply to the "proof" of Yahweh, and that Jesus was and IS Messiah. I love the way he lines up the texts.  "Remember the former things of old, for I am God, and there is none elseÖdeclaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure. ñIs 46:9,10 In Isaiah 43:10 the God of Israel declares that the Jews are His witnesses to the world that He is God. Such is the case in spite of the fact that 30 percent of todayís Israelis claim to be atheists and most Jews worldwide would never think of telling the world that God exists. Yet they are the witnesses, both to themselves and to the world, of His existence because of the astonishing fulfillment in history of precisely what God said would happen to these special people. Though much that the prophets foretold concerning Israel is yet future, nine major prophecies involving specific and historically verifiable details have already been fulfilled precisely as foretold centuries beforehand. 1) God promised a land of clearly defined boundaries (Gen 15:18-21) to Abraham (Gen 12:1;13:15;15:17,etc). He renewed that promise to Abrahamís son Isaac (Gen 26:3-5), to his grandson Jacob (Gen 28:13), and to their descendants after them forever (Lev 25:46; Josh 14:9, etc.). 2) It is a historical fact that God bough these ìchosen peopleî (Ex 7:7,8; Deut 7:6; 14:2; etc.) into the ìPromised Land,î an amazing story of miracles in itself. 3) When the Jewish people entered the Promised Land, God warned them that if they practiced the idolatry and immorality of the landís previous inhabitants, whom He had destroyed for their evil (Deut 9:4), He would cast them out as well (Deut 28:63; 1 Kings 9:7; 2 Chron 7:20; etc.). That this happened is, again, an indisputable fact of history. So far the story is hardly remarkable. Other peoples have believed that a certain geographic area was their ìPromised Landî and after entering it have later been driven out by enemies. The next six prophecies, however, and their fulfillment, are absolutely unique to the Jews. The occurrence of these events precisely as prophesied could not possibly have happened by chance. 4) God declared that His people would be scattered ìamong all people, from the one end of the earth even unto the otherî (Deut 28:64; cf.1 Kings 9:7; Neh 1:8; Amos 9:9; Zech 7:14; etc.). And so it happened. ìThe wandering Jewî is found everywhere. The precision with which prophecies fit the Jews alone becomes increasingly remarkable as fulfillment follows fulfillments, until the case for Godís existence through His dealings with His chosen people is irrefutable. 5) God warned that wherever they wandered the Jews would be ìan astonishment, a proverb, a bywordÖa curse and a reproachî (Deut 28:37;2 Chron 7:20;Jer 29:18;44:8;etc). Amazingly, this has been true of the Jews all down through history, as even the present generation knows full well. The maligning, the slurs and jokes, the naked hatred known as anti-Semitism, not only among Muslims but even among those who call themselves Christians, is a unique and persistent fact of history peculiar to the Jewish people. Even today, in spite of the haunting memory of Hitlerís holocaust which once shocked and shamed the world, and in defiance of logic and conscience, anti-Semitism is still alive and is once again increasing worldwide Furthermore, the prophets declared that these scattered peoples would not only be slandered, denigrated, and discriminated against, but 6) they would be persecuted and killed as no other peoples on the face of the earth. History stands as eloquent witness to the fact that this is precisely what has happened to the Jews century after century wherever they were found. The historical record of no other ethnic or national group of people contains anything that even approaches the nightmare of terror, humiliation, and destruction which the Jews have endured down through history at the hands of the peoples among whom they have found themselves. Shamefully, many who claimed to be Christians and thus followers of Christ, who was Himself a Jew, were in the forefront of Jewish persecution and slaughter. Ö The Roman Catholic popes were the first to develop anti-Semitism to a science. Hitler, who remained a Catholic to the end, would claim that he was only following the example of both Catholics and Lutherans in finishing what the Church had begun. Ö When Romeís Jews were released from their ghetto by the Italian army in 1870, their freedom at last ended about 1500 years of unimaginable humiliation and degradation at the hands of those who claimed to be the vicars of Christ. Ö God declared that in spite of such persecution and the periodic wholesale slaughter of Jews, 7) He would not let His chosen people be destroyed, but would preserve them as an identifiable ethnic, national group (Jer 30:11;31:35-37; etc.). The Jews had every reason to intermarry, to change their names and hide their identity by any possible means in order to escape persecution. Why preserve their bloodline when they had no land of their own, when most of them didnít take the Bible literally, and when racial identification imposed only the cruelest disadvantages? To refrain from intermarrying made no sense. Absorption by those among whom they found themselves would have seemed inevitable, so that little trace of the Jews as a distinct people should have remained today. After all, these despised exiles have been scattered to every corner of the world for 2500 years since the destruction of Jerusalem by Nebuchadnezzar in 586 B.C. Could ìtraditionî be that strong without real faith in God? Against all odds, the Jews remained an identifiable people after all those centuries. That fact is an astonishing phenomenon without parallel in history and absolutely unique to the Jews. Ö The Bible declared that God determined to keep His chosen people separated to Himself (Ex 33:16; Lev 20:26; etc.) because 8) He would bring them back into their land in the last days (Jer 30:10; 31:8-12; Eze 36:24, 35-38; etc.) prior to the Messiahís second coming. That prophecy and promise, so long awaited, was fulfilled in the rebirth of Israel in her Promised Land. It happened at last in 1948, nearly 1900 years after the final Diaspora at the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70 by the Roman armies of Titus. This restoration of a nation after 25 centuries is utterly astonishing, a phenomenon without parallel in the history of any other peoples and inexplicable by any natural means, much less by chance. Even more remarkable, 9) God declared that in the last days before the Messiahís second coming, Jerusalem would become ìa cup of tremblingÖa burdensome stone for all peopleî (Zech 12:2,3). At the time Zechariah uttered this prophecy 2500 years ago, Jerusalem lay in ruins and was surrounded by wilderness. And so it remained century after century. Zechariahís prophecy seemed to be utter madness even after Israelís rebirth in 1948. Yet today, exactly as foretold, a world of nearly 6 billion people has its eyes upon Jerusalem, fearful that the next world war, if it breaks out, will be fought over that tiny city. What an incredible fulfillment of prophecy! Ö Jerusalem is a small city of neither commercial importance nor strategic location. Yet the eyes of the world are upon it as upon no other city. Jerusalem is indeed a ìburdensome stoneî around the necks of all nations of the world, the most vexing and volatile problem the United Nations faces today. There is no ordinary explanation for this. What the Hebrew prophets declared thousands of years ago and what seemed utterly fantastic in their time is being fulfilled in our day. This is only part of the evidence, as we shall see, that the prophesied ìlast daysî are upon us and that our generation will likely see the remainder of Bible prophecy fulfilled. Ö That they have been fulfilled in specific detail cannot be the result of mere chance but is in fact more than sufficient proof for the existence of the God who inspired the Bible and of that Bookís authenticity and inerrancy. Ö Ö Ye men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of NazarethÖ being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain. Acts 2:22,23 PaulÖ[for] three Sabbath days reasoned with them [the Jews in their synagogue] out of the [Old Testament] ScripturesÖthat Christ must needs have suffered and risen again from the dead, and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ [the Messiah]. Acts 17:2,3 The prophecies concerning the second major theme of the Bible, the coming of the Messiah, are even more numerous and detailed than those pertaining to Israel. These prophecies have also been dealt with at some length in my previous books, so we will only summarize a few of them briefly here. Even the most anti-Christian critics who deny categorically that Jesus of Nazareth is the Savior of the world admit that many specific messianic prophecies were fulfilled in His life and crucifixion. In the attempt to explain away the significance of that fact some bizarre theories have been invented. Typical of such attempts was a book and movie (neither very successful) some years back entitled The Passover Plot. Its thesis was that Jesus, knowing some of the messianic prophecies in the Old Testament, conspired with Judas to fulfill them in order to make it appear that He was the promised Messiah. Obviously it would have been ludicrous for Jesus to get Himself crucified in order to convince a small band of uneducated, inept followers that He was the Christ. In fact, neither His disciples nor nay other Jew, including even John the Baptist, could believe (though the prophecies were clear, as Christ explained often) that the Messiah was to be crucified. His death rather seemed proof that he was not the Messiah, so fulfilling the prophecies concerning His crucifixion to the letter, as He did, would not have been the way to gather a following. In fact, Christís death in fulfillment of Scripture was in order to pay the penalty for our sins. The prophecies concerning His death (Ps 22:16; Is 53:5, 8-10, 12; Zech 12:10; etc.) were avoided by the Jews as impenetrable mysteries because they seemed totally at odds with other prophecies declaring plainly that the Messiah would ascend Davidís throne and rule over a magnificent kingdom. How could the Messiah establish a kingdom and a peace that would never end (Is 9:7) and yet be rejected and crucified by His own people? It seemed impossible for both to be true, so the Jewish interpreters simply ignored what didnít seem to make sense to them. That the Jews were able to crucify Jesus was the final triumphant proof to the rabbis, and it served as the disappointing but undeniable evidence to the Jewish masses and His most devoted disciples that Jesus of Nazareth couldnít possibly have been the Messiah. The prophesied messianic kingdom had not been established, nor had He brought peace to Israel by delivering her from her enemies, so at best He could only have been a well-meaning impostor, and at worst a deliberate fraud. Such remains the argument of most Jews today. There was, however, one way to reconcile the apparent contradiction: The Messiah had to come twice, the first time to die for manís sins, the second time to reign on the Davidic throne. But even when Jesus explained that fact ahead of time, no one could understand it. It would take His resurrection to open blind eyes. Yes, there were a few prophecies which Jesus of Nazareth could have conspired with Judas or others to fulfill. Most prophecies, however, were beyond the control of any mere man. For example, being born in Bethlehem and of the seed of David were major requirements for the Messiah. The timing of the Messiahís birth, too, as foretold was obviously beyond the influence of any ordinary mortal. His birth had to occur before the scepter departed from Judah (Gen 49:10), while the temple was standing (Mal 3:1), while the genealogical records were available to prove His lineage (2 Sam 7:12; Ps 89; etc), and shortly before the temple and Jerusalem were destroyed (Dan 9:26). There was a narrow window of time during which the Messiah had to come ñ and He did. As the apostle Paul, a former rabbi, so eloquently put it, ìBut when the fullness of time was come, God sent forth His son, made of a woman [i.e. virgin born]Öî (Gal 4:4). It is too late for the Messiah to make His first appearance now. There can only be a second coming, as the Bible declares. Yet the Jews still await the first appearing of the one whom they will imagine is their Messiah but who will in fact be the Antichrist. The scepter departed from Judah about A.D. 7, when the rabbis lost the right to exact the death penalty. This right was crucial to the practice of their religion because death was the penalty for certain religious offenses. When Pilate told the rabbis he wanted nothing to do with Jesus and for them to judge Him themselves, they replied, ìit is not lawful for us to put any man to deathî (Jn 18:31). The Messiah had to be born before that power was lost, and He had to be put to death afterward, for He was not to die by stoning, the Jewsí manner of execution, but by Roman crucifixion. Amazingly, his crucifixion was prophesied centuries before that means of execution was even known: ìThey pierced my hands and my feetî (Ps 22:16). Obviously, too, the Messiah had to be born while the genealogical records still existed, or there could be no proof that He was of the seed of David. Those records were lost with the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple in A.D. 70, an event which both Daniel (in 9:26) and Christ prophesied (Matt 24:2). Since then it has been too late for the Messiah to come, though the majority of Jews still await His first advent. Christians, on the other hand, expect the second coming, which also was foretold by the Hebrew prophets. Had Jesus conspired to fulfill the prophecies, he would have had to bribe Pilate to condemn the two thieves to be crucified with Him in fulfillment of Is 53:9. He also would have had to know what soldiers would be on duty that day in order to bribe them ahead of time to divide His clothes among them and gamble for His robe (Ps 22:18), to give Him vinegar to drink mingled with gall (Ps 69:21), and to pierce His side with a spear (Zech 12:10) instead of breaking His legs as was the custom, but which could not be done to the Messiah (Ex 12:46; Ps 34:20). Were the rabbis also part of the plot? Was that why they paid Judas exactly 30 pieces of silver to betray Him as prophesied by Zechariah (11:12), then used the money to buy a ìpotterís fieldî for burying strangers when Judas threw it down at their feet in the temple, again as foretold (Zech 11:13)? Is that why they crucified Him precisely when the Passover lambs were being slain all over Israel, in fulfillment of Exodus 12:6? The ìPassover plotî scenario becomes increasingly ridiculous the more one examines it. Where did Jesus get the money to pay off the multitude that lined the road into Jerusalem and hailed Him as the Messiah when He rode in on a donkey ñ the last beast one would expect a triumphant king to choose ñ precisely as foretold in Zech 9:9? It was Nisan 10 (April 6), A.D. 32, the very day the prophets had declared that this amazing event would occur ñ 483 years to the day (69 weeks of years as Dan 9:25 foretold it) after Nehemiah, in the twentieth year of the reign of Artaxerxes Longimanus (465-425 B.C.) had received (on Nisan 1, 445 B.C.) authority to rebuild Jerusalem (Neh 2:1)! The fulfillment by Jesus of these and many other messianic prophecies in minute detail cannot be explained away. Furthermore, if Jesus had successfully ìplottedî to get Himself crucified on the precise date and time that was prophesied ñ in spite of the determination of the rabbis to the contrary (Matt 26:5; Mark 14:2) ñ Jesus still had to rise from the dead. No ìPassover plot,î no matter how many conspirators were involved, could accomplish that! Ö Roman soldiers didnít sleep on duty. Had they done so while the disciples had stolen the body, they would have been on crosses the next day, and so would the disciples for their crime in breaking the Roman seal on the tomb. And if the disciples had stolen the body and somehow managed to keep it a secret, why would they die for a lie? They were such cowards that none of them had been willing to die for what they had once believed to b e the truth. Yet they almost all went to their deaths as martyrs, declaring to the very end that they were eyewitnesses of the fact that Jesus had risen from the dead. None of them tried to save his life in exchange for revealing where the body had been hidden. There is simply no way to explain the undeniably empty tomb except by resurrection. Neither Hinduism, Buddhism, Islam, nor any of the worldís other religions makes any pretense that its founder is still alive. For Christianity, however, the resurrection is the very heart of its gospel. If Christ did not rise from the dead, then the whole thing is a fraud. Nor did Jesus tell His disciples to go to far-off Siberia or South Africa to preach His resurrection where no one could challenge that claim. He told them to begin in Jerusalem, where, had He not risen from the dead, a short walk to the grave just outside the city wall could have proven that He was still dead. Ö The proofs for the resurrection are numerous and irrefutable, but having dealt with them elsewhere we will mention only one ñ a proof often overlooked. That Christ had indeed risen from the dead is the only explanation for the fact that Saul of Tarsus, the chief enemy of Christianity, became its chief apostle. A popular young rabbi, Saul was on his way to great honors for his leadership role in pursuing this aberrant sect with arrest, imprisonment, and martyrdom. Then suddenly he became one of the despised and persecuted Christians himself, and for this he was repeatedly arrested, beaten, and imprisoned. On one occasion he was even stoned and left for dead. Finally he was beheaded. This stunning turnabout made no senseÖunless. Why voluntarily trade popularity for suffering and eventual martyrdom? Paul explained that he had met the resurrected Christ, and that the One who had died for the sins of the world was alive and had revealed Himself to him. That testimony, however, was not sufficient in itself to prove that Christ was indeed alive. Something more was needed. No one could doubt Paulís sincerity. That was demonstrated by his willingness to suffer and even die for Christ. A sincere belief, however that Christ was alive was not sufficient proof. Ö The Roman governors Felix and Festus, as well as King Agrippa, heard Paulís account of this supernatural encounter and were convinced that he was sincere but deluded (Acts24-26). That explanation, however, did not fit the facts. Paulís sudden intimacy with Christís teachings provided proof of the resurrection that could not be explained away by any means. Paul, who had not known Christ before He was crucified, was suddenly the chief authority on what Christ had privately taught His inner circle of disciples. He had to have met Him! The apostles, who had been personally instructed by Christ for several years, had to acknowledge that their onetime enemy, Paul, without consulting any of them, knew all that Christ had taught them, and indeed had even deeper insights than they. When Paul rebuked Peter for going astray, the latter submitted to the correction (Gal 2:11-14). ìI have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto youî (1 Cor 11:23) was how Paul began his explanation to the Corinthian church of what happened at the Last Supper and what Christ had taught His disciples on that occasion. Yet Paul had not been present, n or had he consulted any of those who had been there. ìI conferred not with flesh and blood; neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me, but I went into Arabiaî (Gal 1:16,17) was Paulís sworn testimony. That he was suddenly the chief apostle and authority on what Christ had taught could be explained in no other way than that he had been instructed by the resurrected Christ, exactly as he claimed. Without consulting any of those who had been Christís disciples during His earthly ministry, Paul had become the chief authority on Christian doctrine, as all the church had to acknowledge. He wrote most of the New Testament epistles. ìI certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not of man. For I neither received it of man neither was I taught it but by the revelation of Jesus Christî (Gal 1:11,12) was Paulís solemn testimony. There is no other explanation than that Christ had indeed been resurrected and had personally instructed Paul. The fulfillment of the prophecies mentioned above as well as scores of others in the life, death, and resurrection of Christ prove beyond any possible doubt that He is the Messiah of Israel, the Savior of the world. No one can examine the facts and remain an honest doubter. Those who refuse to believe in the face of such overwhelming evidence are without cause." | ||
| Speakeasy Registered user Username: Speakeasy Post Number: 109 Registered: 9-2002 |
I am sorry Chris. That as you said. Everything I have posted is upprofitable and G-d warned use not to argue over such things. Well should the next time I see anybody on the forum go back and forth with someone that has questions like mine. Should I tell them that there Questions are as you say are "Unprofitable" WOW if I would have never asked and debated people about other Topics that I was having problems with IE, Foods,Jesus is the Messiah ,salavtion. I would never be at the place were I am at today. Chris you can not say that my questions are "Unprofitable" When I was in england in 1985 There was and still is a big number of Muslums. And when a christian would proclaim what he believed about Christ. In the open. There would be heavy and heated debates in the open with them. And they would go at it for hours. And I saw in the 2 years I was there. 5 of these Muslums at least come to Christ or asked for tracts or a bible. Maybe the people that just asked for a bible or a tract. After a few weeks or so down the road excepted Jesus as there saviour. But Chris to say that my questions are as you say "Unprofitable" I would not be at the place I am today and those people that were Muslums that were saved by debating a Christian about christ and now are christian's those people would not be saved. If they were not asking questions about the Law and Christ. Were would those people and me be today? I think they would and I would be to going to Hell ! If you can not ask questions about such matters then how do people go from one beliefe to the next? Didn't you at one tme have heated discussions about the Law and the sabbath and etc. At one time in your life? speakeasy | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 490 Registered: 7-2003 |
Speakeasy, Chris pointed out what SCRIPTURE says about disputes about the law. I don't think he is in any way trying to insinuate your question is foolish. In your response here, however, you mention a conversation with muslims...was that conversation really about the law or was it about Christ? I don't know a single person who has been drawn to religious Christianity because of the law. But I have seen people drawn to Christianity because of Christ. You can spend hours talking about Christ and never mention law. And people can accept Christ without being under the law. But the flip is not true. People cannot be saved knowing the law but without Christ. To the heart of Chris' question...is your focus Jesus or is it law? Somehow your initial question seems to want to side-step the need for Christ if you keep the law. Secondly, it wants to dismiss Paul's writings as errant. Maybe I'm reading what you're asking all wrong. If there are fruitful discussions about the purpose of the law and to put it in proper perspective of Christ, that is fine. The verse doesn't say never discuss law. If it did, Galatians would be a sin. But our focus is to be Christ. If our focus is on Christ, law isn't even on the radar screen. If you trust Christ as your savior, and he is your righteousness, and you're following his leading, why do you need law? I say these things purely in love, please don't read any hostility, animosity or any negativity at all in my remarks. | ||
| Speakeasy Registered user Username: Speakeasy Post Number: 110 Registered: 9-2002 |
The conversation was both. Th Muslims were stating that Christians do not follow the one true G-d. The faults Messiah Because the Christian does not keep the Laws of G-d. You stated; "People cannot be saved knowing the law but without Christ." King David was declared righteous before G-d because He kept G-ds ways and Laws. If you read the psalms he says this 3 times. That he was declared in G-ds eyes as righteous and this was thousands of years before Jesus came. So to say You can not be saved by the law without knowing Jesus. Is not true. If this were so King David will be in Hell even though G-d said he is Righteous, What about Noah and Abraham and Moses. These men did not know Jesus. Moses gave the law and he knew that Killing a man would be breaking G-ds law. But Moses killed a man. Will Moses be in Heaven or will he go to Hell? My focus maybe on the Law. My focus is also on what Christians will say. That no one has ever been saved without Jesus and No one was declared Righteous by the Law. Well the Tenak says other wise. Why do I need the Law. I don't know why. Why would G-d give laws? To say G-d's laws are not for me. Would be admitting that G-d does change. And he changes his Mind. If a G-d that I am giving my soul and trust to changes his mind and goes back on his word. Should I trust that person for salvation? No I do not read any hostility or negativity in your response. I am just a person that is searching and wanting to know the truth and I have been doing this for almost 9 years maybe 10. I do not understand how Christians except so many things without even studying the bible to see if it is true. Like the trinity. I get told that this is the hardest thing to explain and that we will never understand it "Until we get to heaven" But the trinity is a cornerstone of the beliefe system. If it is so hard to explain and Understand. Then how does a person just except it and move on. When you yourself don't even know what it is? Don't get me wrong I want to see it and understand it like you do. But I don't. Does this make me an saved person if I say I do not see the trinity? I bet I will get responses or people will say without repsonding. That I am not saved because I question this and other Christian Doctrines. I do not say the trinity is faults or of Babylonian connections like I used to. I do not reject or except the trinity. I am 50 - 50 on this subject. But never the less this is what I have in my heart about this subject. I am just a person searching and Honestly struggling. So please do not think I am attacking you. And I hope you don't? And that is anybody on the forum. speakeasy | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 491 Registered: 7-2003 |
My study of the New Covenant (Testament) is that the death, burial and resurrection absolutely changed something or it was unnecessary. Galatians is very pointed that the law was "until the seed"... or Christ. The law was a tutor UNTIL Christ. Now that Christ is here, we don't need the law. That doesn't make God change, the scripture says Jesus' death was planned from the foundation of the world. But that plan took time to play out in history. Unless God IS law, God is not changing to make laws applicable and then later fulfill them. I have to admit I am fuzzy about people pre-cross. God called David a man after his own heart, but to say he kept the law is somewhat of a quandry if you study the life of David. He committed adultery with Bathsheba and coveted another man's wife. Consequently, he set it up so her husband was killed. There were other things in David's life that were "against" the laws of God. It seems to me David was righteous because of something other than his lawkeeping because the same Bible explicitly details Davids law-breaking. If you're going to use David as the example, seems you have to use everything told about David. The Bible says the laws were for the Children of Israel. Romans 1-3 talks about those under the law and clearly those wtihout the law. I'm not trying to insinuate God's laws are not for Christians, but I am saying the Old Covenant law is not binding on Christians. There are laws of righteous that are for Christians, but it seems if you're following Christ and in a relationship with Christ those laws become natural (written on our hearts...not on stone). I recognize you are struggling and that this has been an ongoing struggle, but there aren't words I know to "convince you". What I know, I know from personal study and to some degree of faith. I do not know what the 3 personages of God 'look" like, but I take on faith that they are exactly what the Bible says they are...3 eternal "persons" of one God. Hebrews 11:1 says "faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. ...by faith we understand the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that the things which are seen were not made by things which are visible..." Faith requires trust in something, and mine is in Christ. It is that faith that makes me know that some day, in eternity, I will have perfect understanding and I don't beat myself up for lacking that knowledge now. It is also a maturing process that some day i may have greater understanding than today. But there will never be a point where I will say I have arrived or have all the knowledge to be had. I hope you are able to find what it is you are looking for. |
