| Author |
Message |
Dennisrainwater
Registered user
Username: Dennisrainwater
Post Number: 100
Registered: 8-2000
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 12, 2004 - 8:51 pm: |     |
Hey all ñ this is a great thread!
I really needed this discussion for myself! And, as usual ñ Iím showing up lateÖ (Some of this might be more relevant to discussion that was occurring several days ago.)
My wife and I have discovered our long-term involvement in, and have exited, TWO cults in the past five-or-so years. One was Adventism (weíre both multi-generational), and one was financial (13 years).
After finally beginning to recover from facing the feelings of: ìHow stupid could I be to be so ëtaken iní so deeply and for so long?î ñ we then began facing just how much weíd been robbed of! Adventism robbed us of so much joy and security ñ and almost our salvation (well me anyway ñ I was far too absorbed with all the perfectionism!). The other one robbed us over more than $60,000, many friendships, and well over a decade of extremely poor career and financial choices. During the time I should have been educating and positioning myself to be a good provider for my family, I was a slave to folks who ìcounseledî me to do things that were profoundly destructive to our future.
My problem now is that these combined experiences ñ and the pain and anguish of both ìexitsî, so closely linked in time ñ has left me angry at EVERYTHING!
Actually, I think perhaps it is *essentially* because of insecurity. In both Adventism, and the other cult, I was trained to think, ìI know everything, and everyone with an opposing view knows nothingî! And to my shame, I find that I have not learned to shed that practice to as great a degree as I wish I had.
Some of the research I did while learning the truth about SDAism felt like it threatened to strip me of my Christian *belief*Ö Much of my discussion and debate with ìformersî from our other experience has attempted to strip me of my Christian *world-view* and *practice*. And my knee-jerk reaction to this is often to simply ìshut downî anyone whom I perceive sees things differently than me ñ partly because I am afraid of losing even moreÖ
There were so many things I was so arrogantly CERTAIN of in both of those experiences ñ for SO LONG! But I found that *I* was the one who was profoundly ignorant ñ at least eventually I found that out... I cannot afford to lose God, too. And I feel so strongly about such things as I know (or *think* I do) about how He wants us to live, and to respond to that which is wrong with our worldÖ I have spent many hundreds of hours discussing (and sometimes arguing and debating) with folks about these matters over the past few years, and I am tired. I am getting set in my waysÖ I donít have the time or energy anymore to be *willing* to start back at the beginning each time someone comes at me with a belief or perspective that opposes mine.
So now, instead of love and patience, I all too often feel annoyance and frustration with someone who disagrees with me about the Sabbath. Or Mrs. White. Or the Rapture. Or Calvinism. OrÖ You get the pictureÖ.
I am angry at Muslims because they (well, some of them) constitute a real danger to my nationís (and the worldís) safety. I am angry with Kerry and Edwards because they are (in my view, at least) too soft on Defense and Security. (And abortion, gay-marriage, the eradication of God from our national landscape, etc., ad nauseam.) I am angry with those who support them because they could help to usher in this threat to all these issues I hold dear. I am angry with Europe because they have been so frequently hateful to us in the wake of Operation Iraqi Freedom. I am angry with the Iraqis because their soccer team sprayed such vitriol toward us at the Olympics. I am angry with the Methodists, Presbyterians, and the Episcopalians for (as I see it) undermining the integrity and credibility of the Christian Church as a whole in their embracing homosexual unions (a specific sin I am convinced God has never ceased to hate ñ He called it ìan abominationî). (On that count, I have almost certainly sinned against you, Hoytster; as I have probably been ungracious toward you a couple of times partly because of my feelings toward the Methodist Church. And you have my apologies ñ if youíll accept them.)
The short of it is this: I am broken. I am a sinner. I am in urgent need to repair. And I solicit your prayers.
V, you raised the original question of whether we are too bitter. I can tell you that YES ñ *I* am, at least. And yes, I do think it is part of the process we must go through, as we deal with all the changes we face in the wake of our Exit. But also, we MUST fall on our knees in petition that God will not let us long stay there. I am finding that it hurts US, far more than it helps ANYTHING.
In my own life, I think the biggest culprit is the fact that Iíve allowed myself to be easily distracted from my DAILY prayer and study time. Thatís the MOST certain thing to alleviate our stress, anxiety, and rage ñ and usually the LEAST likely thing to have been checked off our ìto doî list at the end of the dayÖ If I lose my view of God as Mighty and Able, I begin to forget that He has it all well in hand ñ and *really* doesnít need my puny help and ëwisdomí!!
So, if youíll excuse me, I have some study I need to dig intoÖ
Secure and hopeful ONLY because of His unfathomable Grace,
Den <><
|
Doc
Registered user
Username: Doc
Post Number: 129
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 13, 2004 - 10:25 am: | |
Great post Den, very honest.
I'm sure God will build you up if you remain that humble.
God bless you,
Adrian |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 801
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 13, 2004 - 12:08 pm: | |
Dennis, thank you for your candor and for trusting God enough to share your experience. You ARE secure in His grace, and He will not waste the years you've spent suffering or deceived. He is redeeming them in your life even now.
I will be praying for you.
Colleen |
Dennis
Registered user
Username: Dennis
Post Number: 188
Registered: 4-2000
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 13, 2004 - 1:29 pm: | |
SHOULD ADVENTISTS HANDLE PIGSKIN?
Last Monday morning, an SDA physician assistant placed a micro-thin layer of pigskin over a wound that my wife has as a result of diabetic complications. Interestingly, as he was performing this outpatient procedure, he quietly remarked that "the Bible says that one should not eat pork but it doesn't say you can't touch it." Apparently, he hasn't read Lev. 11 and Deut. 14 recently.
In in very real sense, according to their aberrant views, Adventists should not be involved in modern medicine today. This further translates into their getting out of the hospital and clinic business. In the process, they should also get rid of their athletic shoes and pigskin wallets and handbags. Furthermore, Seventh-day Adventists cannot educate medical professionals without contact at some point with pork products used in medicine today. In short, this would be practicing what you preach!
Dennis J. Fischer |
Jeremy
Registered user
Username: Jeremy
Post Number: 40
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 13, 2004 - 2:59 pm: | |
Also, SDAs can't touch footballs. But then again, EGW said football was a sin anyway. ;-)
EGW also actually said that it's a sin to touch any dead flesh, clean or unclean. "The Lord would bring His people into a position where they will not touch or taste the flesh of dead animals." (Counsels on Diet and Foods, page 411.)
Jeremy |
Jeremy
Registered user
Username: Jeremy
Post Number: 41
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 13, 2004 - 3:43 pm: | |
Also:
Did Ellen White touch and bury her dog Tiglath-Pileser? I don't know if he died while she owned him, but... ;-)
And speaking of Tiglath-Pileser...
quote:"She spent many pleasant hours paging through the autograph album given her during the farewell service at Cooranbong. So did the Willie White family on the deck below, as day by day they read a few pages. These albums, gold embossed and bound in bright, royal-blue velvet with gold-edged leaves, still convey nostalgia and warmth; one cannot read them without feeling drawn to those for whom they were so lovingly and carefully prepared. There was a section for every day of the voyage, and each section was introduced by an exquisite little watercolor painting, the Moana itself often appearing in the picture.
The brown-toned photographs help to tell the story of the work in Australia. There is the electro-hydropathic institute in Adelaide. There are pictures of neat little churches Ellen White had visited and in which she had made investments to help the companies of believers who needed meetinghouses. There are portraits of friends, and scenes from her Sunnyside home. One page was reserved for pictures of their watchdog, Tiglath-Pileser, at Sunnyside. [...]
On shipboard she was to write a letter about the album, addressing it 'Dear Friends All, in Cooranbong':
I thank you with much pleasure as I look into my memorial. It is a beautiful reminder of my friends, and it came so unexpectedly to us. I appreciate it more than anything my friends could give me. It is so beautifully gotten up, and it has so great a variety and expresses so much skill and taste and beauty. . . . I thank you all who have so freely bound up your heart with my heart.--Letter 190, 1900." (Ellen G. White: The Early Elmshaven Years Volume 5 1900-1905, pages 18-20.)
And EGW wrote:
"This making and exchanging photographs is a species of idolatry. Satan is doing all he can to eclipse heaven from our view. Let us not help him by making picture-idols. [...]
After going from home to home, and seeing the many photographs, I was instructed to warn our people against this evil. This much we can do for God. We can put these picture-idols out of sight. They have no power for good, but interpose between God and the soul." (Advent Review and Sabbath Herald, 09-10-1901, paragraphs 4, 12.)
"Cleanse your homes of the picture-idols which have consumed the money that ought to have flowed into the Lord's treasury." (Notebook Leaflets from the Elmshaven Library Vol. 1, page 34, paragraph 6.)
But she wrote in 1886:
"It is a difficult matter for men and women to draw the line in the matter of picture-making. Some have made a raid against pictures, daguerreo-types, and pictures of every kind. Everything must be burned up, they say, urging that the making of all pictures is prohibited by the second commandment; that they are an idol. [...]
Have those who have burned up all their pictures of friends and any kind of pictures they happened to have, come up to a higher state of consecration for this act, and do they seem in words, in deportment, and in soul, to be ennobled, elevated, more heavenly-minded?" (Selected Messages, Book 3, pages 330-331.)
Heh. What a confused "prophet."
Jeremy |
Doc
Registered user
Username: Doc
Post Number: 132
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 14, 2004 - 2:30 am: | |
Totally confused.
Tiglath-Pileser is a great name for a dog though :-)
doc |
33ad
Registered user
Username: 33ad
Post Number: 51
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, October 14, 2004 - 4:02 am: | |
Hi Dennisrainwater,
This is just a bit off this thread, but you made the comment "I am angry at Muslims because they (well, some of them) constitute a real danger to my nationís (and the worldís) safety."
Den, it's our duty to keep our fingers on the pulse on what is happening in this world as it 'winds down'. Don't be duped by the "Wall Street" mass media in the USA. If you really want to know the truth about why what happens at this stage of earth's history, check out these sites urgently!
http://www.truthseeker.co.uk and
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com
God Bless
Loren |
Melissa
Registered user
Username: Melissa
Post Number: 533
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 14, 2004 - 7:25 am: | |
I took a look at that "what really happened" website and find it... skewed. It bashes pro-lifers (and proliferates the lies of years gone by to get abortion legalized), Christians and seems to say that 9/11 was our fault. Those same type of people say the Holocaust didn't happen and no jews were ever killed. I wouldn't consider anything I read as unbiased "truth". It seemed like an anti-government site ... or at least anti-republican. I'm always fascinated why people who have the answers to all the world's problems don't offer them up instead of merely offering endless criticism after the fact. That's just my opinion of the dozen or so articles I looked at. |
Dd
Registered user
Username: Dd
Post Number: 165
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, October 14, 2004 - 1:32 pm: | |
I second your opinion, Melissa. |
Dane
Registered user
Username: Dane
Post Number: 48
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, October 14, 2004 - 3:31 pm: | |
I looked into the two websites, "truthseeker" and "whatreallyhappened". The first is run by someone named Tim.(no last name) He has a disclaimer that the items on the site may not be true. OK. But I find it interesting that everything on the site is anti-American and anti-Bush. Is not the search for truth supposed to objectively examine all sides?
On the second site (whatreallyhappened) I could not identify any actual organization. It looks like someone's blog with multiple links. Again it is extremely one-sided.
IMHO websites like these are the radical left's equivilent of the "extreme right" conspiracy sites one finds on the web. Both are based on distortions and innuendos, and are quite irrational. Oh well, everyone has a right to their opinion even if it is irrational.
Dane |
Dane
Registered user
Username: Dane
Post Number: 49
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, October 14, 2004 - 4:13 pm: | |
Dennisrainwater,
I can really identify with your feelings of anger. I'm angry at most of the things that you're angry at. I've been thinking about my anger quite a bit lately.
First of all, I believe that God gave us the emotion of anger just as he gave us the rest of out emotions. The problem as I see it is: how do we channel and use our anger so that something positive can come from it? I do know that it is easy to let anger become a consuming fire that will destroy the one who is angry. I'm still working on that. I need people praying for me in this regard.
Dane |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 811
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 14, 2004 - 5:39 pm: | |
Dane (and Dennisrainwater, too), I'll pray that God will help you know what to do with the energy of your anger and that you will become aware of Him carrying the burdens of injustice and brokenness so you don't have to. He is just as well as merciful. He will heal your hearts.
Colleen |
Flyinglady
Registered user
Username: Flyinglady
Post Number: 643
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, October 14, 2004 - 7:00 pm: | |
A suggestion about anger and what to do with it. First anger is an emotion and not a fact. It is only how I feel. Now, if I can do something about the situation, there is no reason to get angry b/c I will do something about the situation. If I cannot do anything about the situation, I can choose to get angry or not get angry. If I get angry, how will that help the situation. If it cannot do anything about the situation, I do not get angry. In all cases, I talk to God about it and ask if it is worth letting myself get angry. Just a suggestion for you folks to consider. It works for me and I do not get angry very often. And I used to have a volatile temper. God has taken it now. He is so awesome.
Diana |
33ad
Registered user
Username: 33ad
Post Number: 52
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Friday, October 15, 2004 - 2:30 am: | |
Good words, Flyinglady. I'm in South Africa, not an American. I was very bitter at americans for going to war on defenceless Iraqi's. But I, from a distance, have a better view of what the "Global Agenda" is.(Anti-Christ is beginning to make his moves) I know that americans, per se, are not Iraqi haters. Only leaders of governments of nations cause the wars.(As a rule they are not what we would qualify as 'Christian', even if they profess to be so.) As a Christian, I love all God's children, Iraqi's, Americans, Moslems, Jews, Hindus, Chinese or whatever. Even those who hurt me formerly in the SDA cult. I still pray for them. The only person who gets hurt by bitterness is the one being bitter and holding the grudges. As Christians, we must discuss these feelings with the Lord in prayer, and then give them over to Him in submission to His will.
Heck, there's so much about my ex-wife to be bitter about, but I forgave her years ago, and the Lord has blessed me since;-)
Dennis, pray about it, and give it to our Savior to handle. I know it's easier said than done. But time is also a great healer.
God bless you as you grapple with this problem.
Loren |
Melissa
Registered user
Username: Melissa
Post Number: 535
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Friday, October 15, 2004 - 7:38 am: | |
Loren, I'm curious if you think the US should have done anything after the attacks on our country...Not just the 9/11 incidents, but we have had embassy's bombed, several ships have been attacked, we have had our citizen's kidnapped and killed for no other reason than being American. Should we just collect within our borders, put up the walls and ignore the rest of the world? I've said before, I see Hussein as a modern version of Hitler. He may not have been going against Jews directly, but he killed masses of people...his own people. History has criticized the people who knew about the holocaust and did nothing to help the jews, but here we had a leader who was killing hundreds of thousands of people...and the world is to sit idolly by and do nothing? I don't see us as going to war against "innocent Iraqi's". What I see is an effort to free Iraqi's from a cruel dictatorship while trying to protect our interests as well. I don't think we can take out one terrorist leader and the whole thing will be solved. Unfortunately, evil exists in the world and when one leader is gone, another one will step up in it's place. The US provides millions of dollars in aid around the world. Governments have no problems asking us to help in countries struck by famine or poverty to feed their people. I know that we routinely are solicited to sponser children in poorer countries so they have food and education. And many people do. Why do those outside our borders never seem to see or recognize the good things America DOES for the world as well as her weaknesses? I don't always agree with every decision the government makes and many of the things that happen in our country, but it's where I was born....I believe God put me here in this land ... We are blessed in many ways.
So, I take exception at the characterization that "Americans" have gone to war on "defenceless [sic] Iraqi's". Though I tend to wish our focus had FIRST been on taking care of Bin Laden, I don't have a problem with removing Hussein. If the insurgence in Iraq from a very small part of the population in Iraq would have embraced the freedom for Iraqi's, I think the US would have well been on it's way out of the country. We didn't plan on being there, but neither can we abandon the citizens there while there is still unrest. That was their criticism of us in the early 90s ... we left too soon before the job was done. I get frustrated when it seems we are in other people's business too much, but I haven't seen any other country who is any less flawed than the US...and many worse. Have you seen the US reporters who have been kidnapped and beheaded in recent months? Or what about the companies who have employees over there trying to rebuild Iraq...we didn't just come in to kill all the people, but our tax money is going to build up the infrastructure in many places. They are being attacked and killed just because they're American. I don't see us having a "global agenda" against the rest of the world. There are many countries where evil is reigning but because it is not perceived as a direct threat, we stay out of it. I don't think George Bush came into office with the primary goal of going to war with Iraq. Maybe I'm skewed because this is my home land, but I get outraged to see anyone killed for a senseless reason as those in the trade centers, pentagon, airplanes, reporters in Iraq, or vacationers in the Philippines (Gracia and Martin Burnham).
It is a great paradox that all these countries petition us for our money and our food (and we usually provide millions of dollars in humanitarian aide...our doctors go to those countries to provide free medical care, etc.), and they want us to buy their goods while refusing ours, but malign us for trying to protect our own and others from the evil that exists. I just don't get it. I'm not saying we're perfect, but neither do I see us (or Bush) as the "anti-Christ". |
Jeannette
Registered user
Username: Jeannette
Post Number: 57
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, October 15, 2004 - 4:11 pm: | |
Melissa,
Thank you, you expressed my sentiments exactly.
Jeannette |
Dd
Registered user
Username: Dd
Post Number: 166
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Friday, October 15, 2004 - 7:55 pm: | |
Preach it sister!
Again, Melissa, a hearty second! |
Flyinglady
Registered user
Username: Flyinglady
Post Number: 646
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Friday, October 15, 2004 - 8:39 pm: | |
If you will read the autobiography about Norman Schwartzkoph you will find out why Saddam Hussein was not taken and killed during the Gulf War. Acoording to the book, the Arab nations made a coalition with the US with the understanding that they did not want to kill an Arab leader, meaning Saddam. If the US had not agreed to that there would have been no coalition. Right or wrong, that is how it was.
Melissa, I second what you said above.
I pray for the terrorists, that God will thwart their plans and turn their weapons on themselves. Or that they will turn to God and let Him into their lives.
I just read a book you folks might like. The title is "A Table in the Presence". It is written by a Navy chaplain who went into Baghdad with a group of Marines. He tells how God worked in the lives of his marines and the miracles God performed. It is outstanding. The author is Lt. Cash. I recommend it to everyone. I saw that there is more to this war than just the war. God is working and changing lives of our men and women in the military.
He is awesome.
Diana
|
Jeremy
Registered user
Username: Jeremy
Post Number: 45
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Friday, October 15, 2004 - 8:52 pm: | |
33ad,
George W. Bush is most certainly a saved, born again Christian brother in Christ. Have you read any of the biographies of Bush and his faith?
He is certainly not "anti-Christ"! He is a Christian. I don't know what else I can say.
And, as Melissa said, we did not go to war against defenseless Iraqis!! We went to war against the evil man and evil regime who were torturing and murdering defenseless Iraqis!!!
Jeremy |
Hoytster
Registered user
Username: Hoytster
Post Number: 111
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, October 16, 2004 - 9:44 am: | |
"I'm curious if you think the US should have done anything after the attacks on our country."
As Christians, we are told precisely what to do: turn the other cheek, and love our enemy.
What does that mean in practical terms?
It could mean a Marshall plan for the Palestinians. If you recall, the Marshall plan involved the U.S. contributing billions to the reconstruction of Europe after WWII. Depending on who you listen to, we have spent between $120 billion and $200 billion on this war in Iraq. (Our on-going costs work out to about $2,000 per second!) Imagine how it would have transformed the world, if we had spent a quarter of that amount improving the lives of the Palestinian people.
The U.S. foreign aid budget is about $15 billion. That's all. Doesn't that seem pathetic, relative to the cost of Iraq? We have spent 8 to 13 times as much on the Iraq war, as we spend on foreign aid each year.
A quarter of the cost of the Iraqi war would have been $30-50 billion, which would have transformed the lives of Palestinians.
What have we gotten for our $120-200 billion, and ~1100 dead American troops?
There was a tremendous outpouring of sympathy for the U.S. after 9/11. Our intelligence services were suddenly getting information from governments who had been extremely hostile previously. What we've done since then is alienate those countries AND most of our allies, to the detriment of our intelligence and our war on terrorism. Even the Saudis cooperate poorly, when we try to pursue terrorists in that country.
A Gallup poll of Europeans shows that something like 5% to 7% want Bush to be re-elected. While it is not the President's job to be popular in Europe, those statistics are indicative of how we Americans are perceived.
We are bullies.
I hate bullies. It makes me ashamed of my country.
I think Jesus hated bullies, which is why he hated the Pharisees.
Do you think that it is good stewardship, that the U.S. spends more on its military that the top 22 highest spending countries, combined!? Read that again: Top 22 COMBINED. If you include the Iraq war, which for some reason George Bush has been allowed to leave OFF the budget, then we are probably spending more than the ENTIRE REST OF THE WORLD, combined!
And its us and our children and grandchildren who are going to be paying for the half-trillion dollar deficits being run up, in part to pay for this war.
When are we going to learn? Saddam Hussein was once a client of the U.S., installed in power by a 1963 CIA-led coup following the assassination of the Iraqi leader Quasm, who became an enemy of the U.S. for nationalizing the Iraqi oil business. Osama bin Laden was trained by the CIA to fight the Soviets in Afghanistan. The CIA is the emissary of the U.S. in too many countries, and it's a scary, hated face. The CIA isn't the anti-Christ, but it sure is the opposite of Christian.
Prior to bin Laden, most acts of terrorism against the U.S. arose from the world-wide perception that the U.S. is a close ally of Israel, to the detriment of the Palestinians. We could have turned that around, without weakening our commitment to Israel, by creating a Marshall plan for the Palestinians.
And it's not too late to do that.
Instead, we are in the business of killing Iraqis and being killed by them. An estimated 13,000 - 15,000 Iraqis have been killed, most of them not fighters, just "collateral damage." How many of those thousands of dead have loved ones who will turn to hate and join the terrorists? Is it hundreds, or thousands, or tens of thousands? Do we really want to be operating a factory creating terrorists? Can the U.S. have any hope to make friends by killing Iraqis? Do we transform our enemies by killing them?
Or by embracing them? "Love your enemy."
"George W. Bush is most certainly a saved, born again Christian brother in Christ."
This kind of statement is what puts me on my guard, as soon as someone tells me that they are born again.
Bush wanted to "get" Hussein before 9/11, as testified by Bush's former anti-terrorism chief. Bush lied to the American people about the nature of the threat of Saddam Hussein, citing (for example) evidence of Iraq's purchase of uranium which Bush knew to be false. Bush continues to lie, stating that Saddam was somehow linked to the events of 9/11 when multiple commissions have concluded otherwise. Bush lies about Kerry, talking about "government controlled health care" when Bush knows that is not what Kerry has proposed. After each debate, impartial groups like FactCheck.org (which Cheney referenced during the veep debate) identify the candidates' errors in fact, and while Kerry has lied, Bush has lied much more.
Jesus was about peace. The Jews wanted a messiah who would lead them against Rome. Jesus went meekly to his death, for the salvation of ALL, including the hated Roman, including the despised Pharisees.
Love your enemy. We have done just the opposite, to the detriment of Iraq, our war on terrorism, and the safety and financial burden of our children.
- Hoytster |
Susan_2
Registered user
Username: Susan_2
Post Number: 1021
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, October 16, 2004 - 10:19 am: | |
In all fairness I do want to point out that the huge amount of money the military is given is not all used for weapons and war. The militry families need momey to live in, food to eat and wages to purchase the stff their families need. Also, the United States has no draft. We have an all volunteer military now. I think it is important to keep that in mind. |
Jeremy
Registered user
Username: Jeremy
Post Number: 46
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, October 16, 2004 - 11:26 am: | |
Hoyster,
We are supposed to "turn the other cheek," yes. But that is talking about in our personal lives. The Bible says that government is ordained by God and does not bear the sword in vain. The Bible also says that murderers are supposed to be put to death. The President has a responsibility to protect his country, and to execute justice on murderers/terrorists.
"As Christians, we are told precisely what to do: turn the other cheek, and love our enemy."
Does that mean that we should have let Osama go ahead and blow up a few more buildings? Those verses are obviously not talking about goverment's duty.
"Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God. Therefore whoever resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves. For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good and you will have praise from the same; for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath on the one who practices evil." (Romans 13:1-4 NASB.)
Jeremy |
33ad
Registered user
Username: 33ad
Post Number: 53
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, October 16, 2004 - 1:51 pm: | |
Hi All,
This forum isn't supposed to be into politics, but I've just been pushed into a corner. I just want to ask, what is the temperature of the sand?
Susan, There's no draft at this point in time, that's true. We'll have to wait till January to see what happens next.
And if anyone still believed O-B Laden was resposible for the attack on the USA and the WTC, then I believe in the tooth fairy.
I'm not anti Republican or pro Democrat. I don't have to be as I don't have a vote.
Jeremy, GWB is supposed to have had a chat with Billy Graham, and then been 'Born Again'. I have my doubts about Billy being what he says he is.
The USA does give MASSIVE amounts of foreign aid to foreign countries. The principal recipient is a middel eastern country that starts with an I. But it's not Iran or Iraq.
Jeremy, if you think that it's OK to belong to a Satanic Secret Society and still call yourself a Christian, I don't know. Both Presidential candidates belong to the same Secret Society, so it doesn't matter which way you vote next month, the desired outcome by those in charge of the NWO will still be carried out.
I pray for Americans every day (My own sister lives there), as there appears to be grave danger just around the corner. God is still ruler of this world, but satan is the care taker at the moment, and we're living in very serious times.
The Roman Church just may be the false prophet, but Anti-christ has been around for at least 2000 years. They call themselves semites, but they're far from it.
Just one last question, who controls the most wealth in the world? In number they are less than the SDA's, but politically they have all the say over 6 billion people. Think about it.
God bless
Loren |
Dane
Registered user
Username: Dane
Post Number: 53
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, October 16, 2004 - 2:48 pm: | |
Brothers and Sisters,
I'm getting very distressed by what I'm reading here. I like a good political debate more than most. However I don't think this forum is the place for it. From what I read above I'm seeing the discussion rapidly degenerating into a no-holds barred "un-Christian" melee.
Do we all have a "right" to our opinion? Yes! But what of our responsibilities? As members of the body of Christ are we not supposed to build each other up, comfort each other, and stand shoulder to shoulder defending the faith? Are we not all heirs and citizens of God's kingdom?
As an American, I feel indebted to my country. I believe in what it has historically stood for. I'm a flag-waving patriot. BUT! My first allegiance is to the One who has Saved me. My second allegiance is to all those whom he has made members of the body.
Presidents, dictators, and political systems will come and go, but the Kingdom is eternal. We must make that our focus. We must rise above our petty differences and be one in Him.
I have never met any of you face-to-face but you are my brothers and sisters. We are family. I love you. He loves us all. Let us not have strife among us. This does not bring Him honor.
Dane |
33ad
Registered user
Username: 33ad
Post Number: 54
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, October 16, 2004 - 3:59 pm: | |
Hi Dane,
I agree with you wholeheartedly, that is why my post on Friday tried to focus on reconciliation. I wasn't throwing bricks out to any one. My message was to give our grievence and bitterness to God, and love one another as Christ loved us. I'll cut out the politics and concentrate on building the family of God. My last post was just to defend myself from some preconcieved ideas. I'm sorry that I offended anyone. We all have our own ideas about where the world is going, and we're all entitled to our ouw private opinions. I also prefaced the posting with the statement "This forum isn't supposed to be into politics, but I've just been pushed into a corner." I won't go there again. I love you all in Christ, and I ask forgiveness for causing disharmony.
Quote: I have never met any of you face-to-face but you are my brothers and sisters. We are family. I love you. He loves us all. Let us not have strife among us. This does not bring Him honor." End quote. Amen to that Dane, and I hope to meet all of you when our Savior returns.
God's blessings to us all. Let us pray for the leaders of all our respectve Governments that they will be guided by the Almighty, and that God's will be done.
Loren |
Ric_b
Registered user
Username: Ric_b
Post Number: 61
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, October 16, 2004 - 8:51 pm: | |
Dane,
Thank you for pointing us all in the right direction! We must keep in mind that God isn't a Repulican. Or a Democrat. Or even an American. We must resist the temptation to recreate God into our image. Regardless of our national heritage and political views.
|
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 819
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, October 17, 2004 - 1:08 am: | |
Thank you, Dane.
Praise God that He has given us new identities--His children, inheritors of the kingdom of God! And praise God that His purposes will come to pass, in spite of ourselves and our intense convictions. Truth and reality are bigger than we can see.
Praise God for unifying us with His Spirit even though our politicial opinions may be poles apart!
Colleen |
|
