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Melissa
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Username: Melissa

Post Number: 492
Registered: 7-2003
Posted on Wednesday, September 22, 2004 - 10:01 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

OOOOPs, i forgot the main Hebrews 11 point....You asked about Noah, Abraham and Moses....The answer is in the Bible...Hebrews 11:7 "BY FAITH Noah ... and became heir of the righteousness which is ACCORDING TO FAITH..." Hebrews 11:8 "BY FAITH Abraham ... " he dwelt in the land of promise and waited... Hebrew 11:23 "BY FAITH Moses..." And even David is mentioned... Hebrews 11:32 "and what more shall I say? For the time would fail me to tell of Gideon and Barak and Samson and Jephthah, also of DAVID and Samuel and the prophets..." Verse 39: "And all these, having obtained a good testimony through FAITH, did not receive the promise, 40God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us."

Though I am fuzzy on the "how" of faith in the pre-cross era, the Bible is crystal clear that it was still FAITH in the promise (though it does not seem they neccessarily knew what the promise was???) that was accounted towards their righteousness. If you look at the whole, it just does not match up to scripture to say righteousness came by keeping the law. Fact is Galatians tells us the law came 430 years after the promise given to Abraham, so it is impossible to say lawkeeping saved those prior to the giving of the law. And that seems to answer another question you posed... to say that if God changed when he fulfilled the law...then he has to have changed first when he gave it...right?

I hope some of this helps explain my understanding, but my post would not have been complete without this part,
Colleentinker
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Username: Colleentinker

Post Number: 723
Registered: 12-2003
Posted on Wednesday, September 22, 2004 - 10:05 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Speakeasy, we have covered these questions many times over the years. Yet I see you consistently returning to the Old Testament and to the law to try to expalin salvation. If we cannot see Jesus as the fulfillment and illumination of the Old Testament and the law, we are unable to experience salvation.

When we surrender (and the emphasis here is surrender, not merely mentally assent) to Jesus, as Chris said above, we receive the Holy Spirit. He witnesses to us of the truth of the Bible--He shows us how there is no dijunction between the Old and the New. He teaches us the truth of the entire Bible. He makes it unnecessary to debate the law or salvation or the role of Jesus.

There is a difference between debating these things in order to try to find intellectual satisfaction in resolving all the passages as opposed to struggling with the text in order to discover truth. As long as we feel or believe that truth needs to look a certain way, we will be unable to surrender to the all-sufficiency of Jesus. Further, our struggle will never resolve. Only in surrender of our ideas of truth, our beliefs, and even our study process will we ever find resolution and peace.

Chris's point still stands, Speakeasy: have you surrendered to Jesus as your all-in-all, nothing else needed? If not, your struggle with these passages will never be resolved. If you have, you can depend on the Holy Spirit to make the Scripture plain regarding all these points you are still debating.

And David WAS saved by faith. He loved God's law, God's word to him. He was saved by faith in a promised Messiah, not by keeping the law. He believed what the law said about a Redeemer for Israel, and he was saved by faith in God's promises. It's just like today--we are saved by faith in God's promises, only today we have a real Person to accept who is the fulfillment of God's promises. The law was never the means to saving faith.

Colleen
Speakeasy
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Username: Speakeasy

Post Number: 111
Registered: 9-2002
Posted on Wednesday, September 22, 2004 - 10:20 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

My point is Like I said Moses kept the Law but He killed a man. Will Moses be in Heaven because he broke the law? I think Moses will be in Heaven. Just like King David. He broke many of G-ds laws. But he was still declared as righteous before
G-d. But to say No one was ever saved without Jesus and keeping the law has nothing to do with salvation. To me is not true. Maybe in our time this is true. But not in BCE time. Men and woman were saved outside of even knowing Jesus and all they had was the G-d they knew and what that G-d told them to do.

I am beginning to see your points on if all you do is concentrate on the law. Then I have missed the whole point of Jesus's life.

So I am NOT dogmatic. Like my old Rabbi and my Jewish friends.

Yes I hope I will find whatever I am looking for. Because in a christian view I am NOT saved. I am not ready for the return of G-d. At this time and for 10 years. I have no confidence of ever really being ready for G-d to come. Not because of what the bible says. It is what Christians and churchs say. I hate to say that. Because I am slamming the Christian when I say this. But I really have no confidence in a saving grace of Jesus. when I don't except or see the same things as other believers do. IE The Rapture,the Law,Christmas,Easter, Did Jesus really Die on a Cross or a tree,ETC. Does any of these topics if you reject them or do not see them as truth. Make you a NON- Saved person? In the bible the answere is NO. But in the Christian Faith the answere is YES!! I want to see them same things as other christians but I am having a hard time on these and many other topics. I wonder if there should be a Thread or is there allready a thread that can help people like me? And with Good web sites and Good biblical input on those web sites. This is what would really help people like me. And I would Not vent and air out dirty laundry. And make a fool of myself in front of all of you.

Thanks for all of your input.
Speakeasy


Speakeasy
Speakeasy
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Username: Speakeasy

Post Number: 112
Registered: 9-2002
Posted on Wednesday, September 22, 2004 - 10:23 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Colleentinker. I will repost what I said above about what i believe it takes to be saved.

If you are asking me. Is Jesus the True and Only Messiah and he is the one that can and will save you from your sins if you ask him into heart. And that it is his shed blood that saves me from my sin record. Yes you must confess that Jesus is the Christ Just as Peter did and Paul stated.

Yes!! I except Jesus as my saviour and Lord and Master.

What else can I say to make this even clearer? Jesus saves!
speakeasy
Praisegod
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Username: Praisegod

Post Number: 119
Registered: 3-2004
Posted on Wednesday, September 22, 2004 - 10:43 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yes, Speakeasy, I sense your continuing struggle as does everyone else. Perhaps what is getting you into more confusion is talking with so many different Christians and non Christians about their beliefs. I donít know if you intend to or not, but it sounds like you exalt the Old Testament and look for flaws in the New Testament. This broadens it a bit over your issues with Jesus and the Trinity.

As SDA I tended to study everything in chronological order. Then one day it hit meóthatís not how it should be done. If I want to determine the shape of the earth, I look at what current knowledge and science is. I donít spend my time reading about the earth being flat.

Could I suggest that you spend a concentrated period of time just in the New Testament? Read entire chapters or small books at a time. Read them out loud even because ìfaith come by hearingî Romans 10:17. If you are serious about learning about Jesus and you tell God you will surrender to his will, even if it goes against your previous understanding, he will guide you. Submersing yourself in the Word, asking for the guidance of the Holy Spirit will be an awesome experience. None of us here could have come out of years steeped in Adventism into the pure Gospel without having prayed a very similar prayer at some point.

Praise GodÖ
Speakeasy
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Username: Speakeasy

Post Number: 113
Registered: 9-2002
Posted on Wednesday, September 22, 2004 - 11:38 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Praisegod; I have spent many many hours in the New Testament. And I expect to spend many many more hours and years in the New Testament. This study will never stop. But I would suggest to all that you know and read the Tenak as well. And stop using it for ammunition for your points of view. Just like I am on the New Testament. The Tenak is not like an old Car. When the old car gets old and rusty. You throw away the Tenak. Many Many christians and you will have to admit. treat the tenak as a Cancer and moldy and outdated. But the same person that says the Tenak was written for the Jew will quickly go to the Tenak and use verse after verse for there view on the one true G-d and the fall of man and the creation of the world. But in the same breath will disguard 80% of it as not for them. The bible is not like Burger King "You can have it your way"

Most christian's believe the Tenak needs to be thrown out of a believers life. I can prove this just by copy and pasting remarks from this very forum.

I have an open mind and I am truly searching. And I just thought that this forum could help. But maybe not. And it maybe just mn. Being blinded by the god of this world and not having any faith and not trusting Jesus. That's probably the problem. Or that is what I have been told on this forum. Throughout the 3 years of me posting.

Again it looks like I need to stop posting on the forum.
speakeasy
Raven
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Username: Raven

Post Number: 43
Registered: 7-2004
Posted on Wednesday, September 22, 2004 - 2:42 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Regarding Speakeasy's post where it says "RE The Rapture,the Law,Christmas,Easter, Did Jesus really Die on a Cross or a tree,ETC. Does any of these topics if you reject them or do not see them as truth. Make you a NON- Saved person? In the bible the answere is NO. But in the Christian Faith the answere is YES!!"

I would certainly consider every one of those in that list to be non-essential! Most Christians I know consider them to be non-essential (except maybe the Law one) I'm pretty sure everyone on this forum who has come out of the SDA church or out of similar legalism, would already agree that believing or not believing in specific doctrines have nothing to do with a person's salvation. Only belief in and acceptance of Jesus' saving power is what saves a person. I even know some SDA's, who are still attached to the law, but have a solid relationship with Jesus, who I believe will be saved. (I'm glad that's God's decision and not mine!) No one is faulted for not having a correct understanding of a doctrine--our brains don't all work the same way. But sometimes an incorrect understanding of doctrine can make it harder to understand the gospel and accept Jesus. I think of that list, probably the Law one is the most confusing to Christians, and the one most likely for Christians to think is extremely important to have a correct understanding of. What I keep telling myself is that any interpretation of doctrine that contradicts the direct teaching of the gospel must be an incorrect understanding. The gospel (Jesus only saves) has to come first.
Chris
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Username: Chris

Post Number: 387
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Posted on Wednesday, September 22, 2004 - 4:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Speakeasy, my question to you has EVERYTHING to do with what you ask. If Jesus is God, then He has the authority and ability to completely fulfill the Law, nail it to the cross, and usher in a new covenant. If He is God, then He is the only One Who can be the reality or substance that the Law could only point to. If He is not God, then we are still lost in our sin and still under the Law.

Your desire to engage in disputes about the Law is unprofitable because you have elevated the Law to a preeiminent place while demoting Jesus to something less than God. This lesser Jesus is not the Jesus that scripture presents and it is not a Jesus that can forgive our sins (only God can do that).

Speakeasy, you deny the deity of Jesus Christ, yet you seem to want to avoid discussion of that most central truth in favor of endless debates about the Law. I tell you the truth when I say you will never understand the Law or the New Covenant until you give Jesus Christ His rightful place as the God of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Moses.

Speakeasy, I beseach you to put aside debate about the Law and engage in a truly interactive discussion of who Jesus Christ REALLY is. This is the central question that must be resolved. Without this, all else is truly unprofitable.

Chris
Dd
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Username: Dd

Post Number: 141
Registered: 7-2004
Posted on Wednesday, September 22, 2004 - 4:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Speakeasy,
I haven't had a much of a chance this week to be checking this forum. I appreciate your thoughts and view points. You have given me some points to ponder.

I am in an indepth Bible study. We have spent several years in the Old Testament. Being raised SDA I was very leary going into each study. I was surprised to find many beautiful life directing stories that were very applicable for today's living. I like hearing about OT historical facts that can't be found in the Bible. What is the Tenak exactly? (I am fairly new to the forum.)

This year my Bible study is on the book of Acts. I found an interesting thing...in the first chapter, 3rd verse, Luke tells us that after His resurrection Jesus spent 40 days with His followers before His ascension. In Luke 24:44-48, Jesus got into the nitty-gritty of the OT with the disciples. It became clear to me that an understanding of the OT is a must in understanding all the facets of Jesus' life and death.

I agree with Raven - the Christian world can make so much of non-essential doctrines. You said yourself, Jesus saves. Sometimes I find that I spend too much time agonizing things to the point of frustration. I have come to believe that God will either reveal those things to me (sometimes through people like you on this forum, in His Word, a TV show...) and I must be patient or else the day will come that He will tell me personally. What I am most grateful to finally learn, though, is that I can say, without a doubt, I am saved!

Best wishes my friend.
Speakeasy
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Username: Speakeasy

Post Number: 114
Registered: 9-2002
Posted on Thursday, September 23, 2004 - 5:38 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Chris in my posts. You need to show me were I said and denyed Christ is the Messiah and or Jesus does not and can not save. Or Jesus is not the Christ. Or Jesus is not my Saviour. Or there is no salvation in Jesus. I have stated that Jesus is the Messiah the saving one. In fact I gave you many verses from scripture on what the bible has shown me about
G-d. I will repost them belowe.

Matthew 11

27"All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.

Matthew 24
36"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

Matthew 26
53And Jesus said; Do you think I cannot call on my Father

Mark 10
18"Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good--except my Father"

John 3
35The Father loves his Son and has placed everything in his hands

Luke 23
46Jesus called out with a loud voice, "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit."

1 Corinthians 1
1 Paul called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God,

1 Corinthians 1
3 Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Corinthians 1
2 Grace be to you and peace from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
3 Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,

Isaiah 43:10 ì Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me."

Deuteronomy 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one

Isaiah 46:9 Remember the former things, those of long ago; I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me.

The problem you have Chris is I am Honest I do not see things in the way you do. So Chris in your view. What are the things that save you?

Since I have everything wrong and you are correct what saves a man. Other than what I have said allready. That Jesus Died and was Buried and he rose from the grave. His Blood and his death is our sacrfice for Sin. And if you except his death and proclaim that he is the Messiah the Christ. This will save you. This is what I know. What other things or lists of things must you except to be saved? It sounds like there are more.

Speakeasy
Speakeasy
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Username: Speakeasy

Post Number: 115
Registered: 9-2002
Posted on Thursday, September 23, 2004 - 6:00 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Guys I will leave you alone and not post again for a few months. I guess I still do not understand what really saves a person. Sorry for causing problems. Keep up the good work. You guys have been great. I hope if G-d and I if am ready and G-d will take me. That I will see you in Heaven.

speakeasy
Raven
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Username: Raven

Post Number: 44
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Posted on Thursday, September 23, 2004 - 8:05 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Speakeasy, you are absolutely correct when you say "That Jesus Died and was Buried and he rose from the grave. His Blood and his death is our sacrfice for Sin. And if you except his death and proclaim that he is the Messiah the Christ. This will save you."

There truly is nothing else. I'm sorry if other Christians make it seem like you have to believe a certain way about additional things to be saved, because that is not true. I'm glad to hear that you understand and believe the ONLY necessary thing. Please try to relax, because since you believe in that one important doctrine "Jesus saves", YOU ARE SAVED!

The other issues have nothing to do with salvation, but can bring a greater peace of mind when a person has the correct understanding. No one will know for sure all correct understanding until the second coming.
Speakeasy
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Username: Speakeasy

Post Number: 116
Registered: 9-2002
Posted on Thursday, September 23, 2004 - 9:42 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Raven I am glade to hear this. Other people on this and other forums. Are very dogmatic. That you have to except other things to be saved. IE the Trinity. I do not understand it. I do not see it. I may see it and understand it in months and years to come but not at this time. But there will be people and there has been just on this thread alone that say I have brought Jesus down to another lower leval than G-d. So I am worshipping a different G-d than the G-d of Abraham ,Isacc and Jacob. Just look at this thread there are people that say things like that. And when you read and are told things like this You really really never know if you are ever saved or can be saved. Just because you don't see what they see.

And when you state and say these things. All of a sudden you are questioned about "are you really giving all of your heart and soul to Christ because if you have not then you will never understand." Well I have done this. And when people say this you never really know if you are saved. There is no way you can know for certian that you can be saved. Even though you see verses in the bible that say you are okay. Other people that are Believers always plant that seed of doubt in you. This is cruel. This tactic reminds me of the SDA and my Morman friends. They do the same things. It is hard to be always labeled as this type of person. You will always be the person always looking from the outside. Always wanting to be feed with the truth but you never are because. When you are being feed by good people. You don't know you are and You really never know if you are being told the truth. Because what is truth for you may not be the real truth. From the start you are labeled again as a rebel and a problem person that just does not want to learn. What a cruel way to teach in that way.

Again I want to see and understand the same things as others. And I want to be coached on these and other things. And this is why I asked in other post's to have a thread or web sites that you can go to and study about such things.

I want the same securtiy that you guys have. What does it take? I want to know!!!
speakeasy
Colleentinker
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Username: Colleentinker

Post Number: 724
Registered: 12-2003
Posted on Thursday, September 23, 2004 - 9:45 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Speakeasy, unless you can say that Jesus IS the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, then saying He is the Messiah and his death saves us is equivalent to saying someone less than GOD saves us. Your view implies that Jesus' death is necessary, but He is not fully God eternal, the Son in the Trinity. The reason you are agonizing over salvation so much is that you, quite simply, do not accept the full deity of Christ. Therefore, you have to have other components to salvation than simply Jesus' blood, because only God can forgive sins.

The pharisees also ran into this "brick wall". Read Mark 2:5-12. They knew only God could forgive sins, so when Jesus told the paralytic his sins were forgiven, they accused him of blasphemy. Read the passage to see how he did not back down.

Read also: John 1:1, 18
John 8:58
John 10:27-30
John 14:6-10
John 17:5
Romans 9:5
Romans 10:9-13 (This text refers to Joel 2:32)
Philippians 2:5-11
Colossians 1;15, 2:9
Titus 2:13
Hebrews 1:6-7 (refers to Psalm 2:7)
2 Peter 1:1
1 John 5:20
(With thanks to our pastor Gary Inrig for this list of texts used in his August 22 sermon entitled, "Was Jesus man or more?")

Speakeasy, unless you surrender all you believe and think is true to the teaching of God and allow His Spirit to reveal truth to you, your questions and internal debates will never end. Unless you can acknowledge Jesus not "just" as the Messiah (whom the Jews believed would be merely a man--they did not know He would be God) but as the eternal Creator God without whom nothing was made that has been made, you will continue to struggle.

With prayers for you,

Colleen
Speakeasy
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Username: Speakeasy

Post Number: 117
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Posted on Thursday, September 23, 2004 - 11:08 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I except that Jesus created everything that makes him G-d. That makes Jesus my G-d. I worship him because Jesus is my God. He Died for me. What else do you need to know? I don't know How much clearer I can get.

I am going to hell and going to burn. Because I do not understand the Trinity and see it clearly as you? I guess I am. I will burn in Hell all because I don't understand it and when you don't understand it How do you see it?

Like I said before. Is Christianity like Burger King? "You can order it your way" If you have to underdstand and believe in the trinity for your REAL Relationship with Christ and to be saved. Then please show me in the Bible that Paul and Peter and Jesus preached that you must except this teaching in order to be a "REAL" Follower. When Jesus and Paul and Peter talked about salvation and what it toke to have eternal life. All it was "Is to Believe that Jesus Christ is the Messiah and that he died and was buried for your sins"

So am I being told that the"Great Commission" is something other than what Jesus Taught the 12 and Paul. And adding other stuff onto the Gospel? And what Paul says is another Gospel. And the Gospel is the Great Commission. you want to add other stuff onto the Gospel. And this is what Paul says is another Gospel.

Paul writes;
Galatians 1
6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.


Paul makes it real clear. That if you add anything to his Gospel that you are following a Curse. This means Sabbath keeping,Tithing ,understanding the Trinity or just excepting it etc... And what Paul said this is "HIS GOSPEL" not someone elses. Not John's or anyones else's. Paul wrote that "he did not learn this Gospel from man But from G-d himself"

A few verses that Paul is bodly proclaiming that the Gospel is his that saves.

Romans 2
16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

Romans 16
25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began

Paul is saying that His Gospel was Hidden and Kept secret ever since the world began. And what is Paul's Gospel.

1 Corinthians 15
1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

And when You add anything to What Paul says that saves you no matter what. What happens???

Galatians 1
6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

So again Am I saved? Do I understand the Saving Gospel? Or Am I going to hell?

If we are not suppossed to have the Tenak as our guide and many parts of the 4 Gospels as a guide. Then we need to follow What Paul says. Because Paul is writting to you and me.

Please correct me if I am wrong. And I probably am wrong. I am wrong on many things.
speakeasy
Melissa
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Username: Melissa

Post Number: 494
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Posted on Thursday, September 23, 2004 - 11:32 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

No one knows your heart, speakeasy. No one here can tell you if you're saved. That is a question you need to pray about and seek from God.

I don't know anyone that says you have to add anything to the gospel to be saved. But as one grows in the Lord, there are things that people understand. People saved off the street may not know that the Jesus calls immorality a sin. Does that mean they're not saved? No, just means they're still a baby. Just as children grow from milk to solid food, so Christians do as well. You can't take what other people say and follow that...you have to seek your answers from God's word...in context. You certainly know the scriptures to quote on what the gospel is ... but it is just not possible for an outsider to know your heart. Only God can answer that question, but it will be in your heart, not your head.
Speakeasy
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Username: Speakeasy

Post Number: 118
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Posted on Thursday, September 23, 2004 - 1:42 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

So is there anyone that knows of a good web site that could help me out on these Topics.

1) The Trinity
2) The Rapture (Rapture Ready web site is
Horrible)
3) The Cross Symbol...Did Jesus die on a
real Cross or a tree
4) Christmas and Easter..Why is there Pagan
Origins to the worship
of our Saviour
5) What really happens to a believer after death

If there is anybody that knows of Good web sites please send them.

When ever G-d wants to answere my questions and concerns in my heart and in my mind. I am open for him to do that. But for the almost 10 years of searching and praying. But it has not come yet.

But time will tell and maybe one day G-d will want to open my mind and heart. It will be up to him. Not up to me. All I can do is ask and it is up to him to reply.

Speakeasy
Raven
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Username: Raven

Post Number: 45
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Posted on Thursday, September 23, 2004 - 3:05 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Speakeasy, since you have found the Bible to tell you that all that matters for salvation is believing and accepting Jesus as God saving you, do these other things matter whether or not you completely understand them? I have no clue on your list of #3, #4, and #5 and I personally have no interest in finding out because they don't matter for my salvation. On #2, I tend to stay away from any doctrine that tries to tell specific details about the second coming. From what I see in the Bible, God doesn't seem to think people need to know so many details about that. That would also be true for #5--the Bible just doesn't give a lot of details about what happens after death but before the second coming. Most ideas on these would be pure speculation. On #1, I was curious what you think the Bible teaches about the Trinity. I know you have quoted the "The Lord our God is one" text, but you also say you believe Jesus is God. That would make 2 of the 3--is it the Holy Spirit as an entity that has you questioning the Trinity? Do you believe Jesus as God is equal to God the Father? Do you believe Jesus exists eternally as God the Father (no beginning and no end)? I don't know anyone who understands the Trinity, but I was curious how you see it. Since I do believe the Trinity, I never really thought about whether or not it matters to salvation if someone believes everything the Trinity doctrine teaches. The Bible says you have to believe that Jesus as fully God forgives and saves you. I don't think it says you have to believe in the Trinity, but it seems natural to me to believe in the Father, Son and Holy Spirit as God since the Bible refers to each that way.
Chris
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Post Number: 388
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Posted on Thursday, September 23, 2004 - 3:20 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Speakeasy, I did not say that you denied that Jesus is the Messiah. I said you denied His full deity and demoted Him to something less than God. Your response to Colleen strikes me as taking the approach that JW's do: i.e. Jesus is *A* God (of sorts), but not *THE* God YHWH/Jehovah. Colleen is exactly right. Calling Jesus the Messiah, but denying that He is THE one and only true GOD, YHWH, the God of Abraham, Issac, Jacob, and Moses leads to a diminishment of His all sufficiency for salvation and doubts as to His authority to complete the old covenant and usher in a new covenant. As Colleen said, it leads to wanting to adding other components to salvation and to constant doubt.

Here's a good website that will help with discovering what the Word of God says about the full deity of Jesus Christ (the areas for JWs are especially good).

http://www.macgregorministries.org/

Here are some direct links to a couple of pertinent articles:

http://www.macgregorministries.org/jehovahs_witnesses/jesus_lord.html

http://www.macgregorministries.org/jehovahs_witnesses/jesus_god/jesus_is_god.html

http://www.macgregorministries.org/jehovahs_witnesses/jws_real_jesus.html

May the Holy Spirit grant you wisdom, understanding, and a yielded heart.

Chris
Sabra
Registered user
Username: Sabra

Post Number: 191
Registered: 10-2001
Posted on Thursday, September 23, 2004 - 6:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Speakeasy,

Can I save you a ton of trouble and time?

Just ask God. Really. Just ask Him and if you really want to know, and I believe you do, He will show you. He promised it in James 1:5-8

Ask Him to show you truth and He will. Worked for me.

1 Cor, 2:6 However, we speak wisdom among those who are mature, yet not the wisdom of this age, nor of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. 7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God ordained before the ages for our glory, 8 which none of the rulers of this age knew; for had they known, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

9 But as it is written: "Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, Nor have entered into the heart of man The things which God has prepared for those who love Him."

10 But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. 11 For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him?

Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.

13 These things we also speak, not in words which man's wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

15 But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one. 16 For "who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct Him?" But we have the mind of Christ.

Praying for you. Seek God and all these things will be added to you. Stay in the Word, pray, ask, knock He'll answer!

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