| Author | Message | ||
| Hrobinsonw Registered user Username: Hrobinsonw Post Number: 48 Registered: 7-2004 |
Hellooooooooooooooooooo to all. How have you been? I have been sooooooo busy with the new job that I am just now getting time to settle down and chat with my cyber friends. So here is the latest text that jumped out at me as I was reading. I was reading Matthew 15:21-28 and I was excited. To me it seemed to lay out the ground work for everything that comes after the Gospel in the New Testament. Here is my math. The Law of Moses was given solely to the people of Israel. And according to Paul (former Pharisee), the Law defines sin. And if Christ came to deliver from sin. Then what does that say about the Law if it defines sin? But anyway, Christ is not capable of telling a lie, or tempting individuals. He was honest with the caananite woman when he states that "He was only sent for the lost sheep of Israel." To me that verifies that the Law was only for Israel but I will get back to the point. Christ new this woman's heart as he knows all things. It was the fact that he had to have that scene to occur in order for his purpose to be served. As a caananite, she was not held under the Law in her land. Christ was aware of that. Also, he didn't rattle off a list of regualtions that she had to adhere to in order to be saved. That entire exchange was to demonstrate her faith in him as a gentile woman because Christ had already known her level of faith. When I read that I began to think of the trials that Paul had trying to get his point across, and realized that Jesus's action in this scenario supports an entire Testament. He made it known that she wasn't to be helped because she wasn't of Israel and therefore wasn't bound it's Law. But her faith in him allowed him to help. That is all. There weren't any special concesions made. No clean meat, no sabbaths. She was not required to do anything at all. Just as she expressed her faith her daughter was healed. I feel that situation lays foundation to the books that follow the Gospel. Tell me what you guys think. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 746 Registered: 12-2003 |
I think I understand what you're saying, Hrob. Correct me if I'm reading you wrong: Jesus told the Canaanite woman that he was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel because they had the law and the prophets which foretold him, and his presence was to fulfill all the laws and prophecies which had promised his coming. He came to Israel as the fulfillment of God's promises (symbolized by the law) to them. She did not qualify for God's special blessing because she was not part of Israel who had been entrusted with the special revelation of God through the law. She wasn't part of God's people. Yet she had faith in Him, and her faith qualified her to receive his blessing even without the revelation of the law and the prophets. So, if I'm reading you correctly, in this exchange with the Canaanite woman, Jesus began to draw the curtain from the great mystery Paul talks about: the mystery that even those who don't have (and therefore are not bound to) the law (the Gentiles, in other words!) can come to God by faith--without having to "keep" the law. That's a really great insight, Hrob! I believe you're right--Jesus was laying the foundation for the reality of the church and the fulfillment of the law in Jesus that rendered it obsolete. Colleen | ||
| Hrobinsonw Registered user Username: Hrobinsonw Post Number: 49 Registered: 7-2004 |
That is what I was saying. I was asking myself the night before I read that scripture where was they tie between what Jesus taught and Paul taught. Their messages seemed to be to two different types of people. But then I realized that Paul was Pharisee. He knew the Law better than anyone. And he did have contact with the origional 12. So I began to wonder what was left out of the writings that I am missing. Not, left out, but "not stated." What did Jesus do or say that would inspire Paul to follow that path. From there I connected Peter to Paul, so they had something in common. Then I traced Peter back to Jesus. So I began reading the Gospel over again. And just like that God showed me the caananite woman. It was clear then, that Jesus was setting up, like you said, for the building of his church. It made me feel good how he established the fact that he was not there to help gentiles, because they were not God's chosen people, those same people connected to the law. But just like we say day in and day out on this message board about being saved through faith in Jesus Christ. He demonstrated it just like that before our eyes. And then he gives the Great Commission, and it was just a wonderful night for me. Off subject, we can go on and on about the Law. But A minister in my building this morning laid it out bluntly for me. He said that Seventh Day Adventists are not Christians. The sad thing was that, I couldn't agree more. So my question is this. Are there consequences for adhering to judaic law and you are a gentile. The bible says confess with your mouth and believe with your heart. But Seventh day Adventist confess all day long and swear that they believe. But just like the book of James says. Faith without works is dead. If you say that you have faith, you must have some sort of action to accompany it in order for that faith to be functional. So in order to demonstrate faith in Christ you must not only say it buy act on it. If the Law defines sin. And Christ came to deliver from sin. Then it is understood that his purpose is to deliver you from the yoke of the Law and its consequences. By holding to the Law you are performing an action. But is your action showing faith in the Law or Christ. If that is the case, then there is no reason for you to need him since the law makes an individual righteous. And if you don't demonstrate that you have faith in Christ, then you just aren't Christian. So my question to you biblical veterans is this, if Adventists are bound to the Law. Does that mean that they are hellbound? That is the million dollar question that I am seeking answers for. | ||
| Pw Registered user Username: Pw Post Number: 152 Registered: 6-2004 |
I'd love to read the million dollar answer! That's a hard one indeed, however I'm sure there are some SDA's who truly do desire to follow Christ but are hindered by the EGW tactics. Where they end up up is anyone's guess, but for those who trust in salvation from sabbath keeping and not truly believing that Jesus work was finished at the cross, then they are left to their own devices because they are trusting in themselves rather than Jesus. I think this topic will get some very strong opinions. I'll be watching this thread for days to come. | ||
| Hrobinsonw Registered user Username: Hrobinsonw Post Number: 50 Registered: 7-2004 |
I don't mean to start anything. I was just curious. I talk to Adventists every day and many of them tell me that they don't know if they are heaven bound if they die. And it REALLY troubles them. Some tell me that they aren't supposed to proclaim whether they are heaven bound or not. But after they make that statement, they then express that they are afraid that their soul might be in jeopardy anyway. And these are people over the age of 35. I explain my point of view to them and then I ask, "how do you expect to have a relationship with Jesus if you alienate him through your actions?" They never answer me. So I want to know. Breaking The Law of Moses breeds disastrous consequences in Old Testament times. And Paul says that if you are bound to one part of the law, you are bound to it in its entirety. So are the consequences of past Law breaking applicable today? | ||
| Tracey Registered user Username: Tracey Post Number: 51 Registered: 9-2004 |
boy o boy... What a revelation about the Canaanite woman! And Colleen really pulled your thoughts and study together nicely! I will be reading this tonight! Tracey | ||
| Busymom Registered user Username: Busymom Post Number: 34 Registered: 4-2004 |
The sermon this Sunday was on the differences between the new covenant and the old covenant. The pastor brought up that under the old covenant people were inclined to run away from God because of the impossibility of keeping the law. Under the new covenant we run to God because of Jesus and the indwelling Holy Spirit. I wish I could have taken notes, but it was my turn to be in the nursery and was only able to listen to parts of the sermon. Anyways, I believe there are some Adventists who are filled with the Holy Spirit and really focus on Jesus and then there are others like myself when I was an Adventist who focus on Ellen White instead of the Bible. | ||
| Sabra Registered user Username: Sabra Post Number: 215 Registered: 10-2001 |
That is great Hrobinsonw!! Love it! Isn't it so cool what God let's us see? | ||
| Praisegod Registered user Username: Praisegod Post Number: 126 Registered: 3-2004 |
Agreed! And to think that we used to feel that we had the entire "truth." | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 598 Registered: 3-2004 |
Hrob, Thank you so much for the Bible lesson. I just never connected that story the way you have. As for your question, I want to know that answer myself. I was reading in Nehemiah this morning where the Israelites, again, told God they would keep his commandments and we all know what happened. They could not. Only God knows what will happen to SDAs. That is why I pray for them. Diana | ||
| Cindy Registered user Username: Cindy Post Number: 678 Registered: 7-2000 |
Hrobinsow, I believe what you said in regards to who are "Christians" is very true. By holding on to the Law, how does one really demonstrate faith in Christ? By ones' words and actions (you must keep the Sabbath holy, keep the clean/unclean food laws, tithe, etc.) you are actually denying Christ's fulfillment of the Law, denying His complete sufficiency for all believers... for both Jews and Gentiles. Going back to living under the Law denies Christ and is spiritual adultery. It is just as Paul wrote... we died to the Law so that we can LIVE for Christ! grace always, cindy | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 500 Registered: 7-2003 |
Hrobinsonw, you said "By holding to the Law you are performing an action. But is your action showing faith in the Law or Christ. If that is the case, then there is no reason for you to need him since the law makes an individual righteous". This is what Galatians 3:21-25 says: "Is the law then against the promises of God? certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law. But the scriptue has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. 23But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for faith which would afterward be revealed. Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor." I don't get the idea law ever made one righteous. If you look at verse 23 in the NIV it says the law held us prisoners until faith was revealed. If you back up to verse 11 of that same chapter it says "Now that no one is justified by the law before God is evident;, for, "the righteous man shall live by faith." However, the law is not of faith....." Back up to verse 6 and it says "just as Abraham "believed God and it was accounted to him for righteousness." Therefore know that those who are of faith are sons of Abraham...." You can read on through galatians. I know Romans says the law is holy but you can't stop there...you have to keep reading and get to Romans 8:2-3 which talks about being free from the law of sin and death ... because the law was weak being through the flesh, and if we walk in the spirit, we have fulfilled the requirement of the law. My point? I don't think any one has ever been made righteous by keeping the law, maybe it's just because no one has ever done it, but I found an interesting passage when searching for those above. 10 For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, ìCursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, to perform them.î 11 Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, ìThe righteous man shall live by faith.î 12 However, the Law is not of faith; on the contrary, ìHe who practices them shall live by them.î 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for usófor it is written, ìCursed is everyone who hangs on a treeîó 14 in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith." For the first time it struck me that Christ did not merely "keep" the law and therefore become an example of a great lawkeeper. Look at verse 13...Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by BECOMING the curse that we were because we can't keep the law. B has consistently said that Christ came to show us how to keep the law and that with his strength we can keep the law too. But his passage seems to acknowledge we can't keep the law and therefore are all cursed. It has always seemed to me Christ's perfect nature meant he was so far beyond the works of the law that it seemed siilly to paint him as a perfect sabbathkeeper, or whatever. But he became what we are (should be) ...cursed... so that we would be free from the law. Not merely free from keeping holy days and food laws, etc., but free from the curse. Maybe this is old news for some, but I've never really focused upon his becoming the curse as part of fulfilling the law. Yes, I suppose someone could say they abide by all things written in the book of the law and therefore would avoid the curse, but otherwise we are all cursed before the law from the time we broke the first law. We can't shake it off by anything we do, no matter how good we keep "most" of the law. That is fascinating to me. It's not merely what we've done but what we've become before the law that Christ redeemed us from. Does that make sense? Am I off base? Am I just rambling here? There is so much depth to scripture.... | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 951 Registered: 11-2002 |
Busymom, Are the sermons taped at the church you attend? If so then you could check out the tape, take it home and take sermon notes in the comfort of your own home. | ||
| Pw Registered user Username: Pw Post Number: 153 Registered: 6-2004 |
I was reading Melissa's quote, it is indeed frustrating to think that anyone would confess faith in Christ and yet want to hold onto the O.T. laws, well...at least the ones they seem to like. Plus I can't fathom how anyone can abide in a faith where they are not certain if they will end up in heaven due to some serious doubts on their behalf. Then why bother? If you aren't 100% positive that you are saved, then why are you trying to add to it by trying to keep a Sabbath or not eating certain foods? That was never the point of salvation. Too bad people can't see the forrest for all of the trees. | ||
| Hrobinsonw Registered user Username: Hrobinsonw Post Number: 51 Registered: 7-2004 |
I agree Pw, it is a level of close mindedness. My fiance's cousin who is a convert over to the SDA faith offered to counsel me if I had any questions. He said that he has seen both sides and is willing to give advice if he needs it. I couldn't believe my ears. This guy reads his Bible for long lengths of time. He has devotion with his children every morning. His wife, who was born SDA, thinks that he is basically Moses reincarnated. It frustrates me that individuals can read over and over and over, and still miss the point. When he talks, I can hear a lack of understanding in his words because he labors in his discussions of the writings of Paul in relation to the SDA faith. Then he will go on to say how there are many many times that he doesn't feel like a Christian. Not because of sin in his life. But as he states, "my spirit just doesn't give me a Christian feeling. I feel empty." If your regular spiritual routine leaves you feeling that way. Then don't you need to try something else? | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 953 Registered: 11-2002 |
Generally sda's don't use the book of Galations. Or Corinthins. Or most other N.T. books wih the exception of Revelations and then only a few out-of-context texts. This is one reason for the great confusion. Also, when discussing the law with them they don't include the 10 Commandments in the laws that were done away with by Jesus. | ||
| Hrobinsonw Registered user Username: Hrobinsonw Post Number: 52 Registered: 7-2004 |
Susan, I am begining to understand that. I wouldn't expect anyone to understand if they don't read it. They are missing a whole lot of material. What do they have to say about The Law being written for the people of Israel only? | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 747 Registered: 12-2003 |
Melissa, I think you are absolutely right on in your post above. The law never made anyone holy--not merely because no one ever kept it, but because IT CANNOT. Keeping the law didn't make Jesus holy--nor did His keeping it set an example for us. Jesus kept the law because He WAS already holy. Only God can make a person holy. A person is holy when his or her spirit is alive and connected to God. Jesus was holy because He was conceived by the Holy Spirit, and from the moment of conception His Spirit was alive, unseparated from God by inherited sin. He was the only human to be born (Adam was created) with a living spirit. He was God, and his humanity did not negate His eternal life. Jesus' keeping the law was not our example for a couple of reasons. First, His keeping the law was not demonstrating that it was possible for a human to achieve righteous perfection, as traditional Adventism teaches. His keeping the law was the result of His being born spiritually alive, connected to God, and sinless. Second, He was not our example in the way Adventism teaches, because He was different from us. Adventism teaches that Christ had no advantage over us; He set aside His divine advantage for our sake and endured life on earth on an equal playing field, so to speak, with us. That teaching is heresy--actually, it's blasphemy. He most certainly did have an advantage. If he didn't, He could not have saved us. He was God in flesh. He had a living spirit from conception. It was His eternally living Spirit, never out of communion with the Father, that made Him sinless, not the condition of His human flesh. (Did He or did He not inherit Mary's sinful flesh? The debate has never been settled within Adventism. It continues to this day because Adventists do not understand the true nature of the spirit, or soul. It is not this mortal flesh that makes us sinful; it is our disconnected spirits. Jesus also lost his mortal flesh in the tomb; He was raised with a glorified body like ours will be. See 1 Corinthians 15. Yet He was without sin--without the sin that separated Him from the Father.) Jesus was our example only in the sense that he showed us how a new birth--becoming connected to God--would make a human think and act and live. But we will never look exactly like Jesus looked,because we were born in sin, and He was not. Melissa, your point about someone being theoretically able to keep the law and thus avoid the curse makes sense if we were born "clean" as Adam was created. The point for humanity, I believe, is that not even theoretically would it be possible for a person to keep the law perfectly and avoid the curse. We are born under a curse (see Ephesians 2:4--we are by nature objects of wrath) because we are intrinsically sinful. Our souls are dead when we are born. We are born cursed. Because we are born cursed, we don't even have the theoretical possibility of keeping the law, because our hearts and motives are desperately wicked, as Jeremiah said, and not the slightest righteous deed is truly righteous unless our hearts are born again. Only after a person is born again do His deeds become works of the Spirit, generated by the power of God. In our natural state, good deeds or lawful behavior is not remotely related to eliminating the curse--even if (theoretically) one were able to keep the law flawlessly. When obedience comes from an unregenerate heart, it is not flowing from a relationship with God in response to His power at work in us. Rather, it flows from our self-centered desire to "be good" or "be perfect", and it becomes self-serving. When obedience flows from a regenerated heart, however, it is an act of love to Jesus. It is not about being good; it is about submiting to One who claims us and loves us and gives us a new life and a new name. In fact, it has nothing to do with the law. The law is holy because it came from God, and it describes the way a holy life should look. It is supposed to drive us to despair. It is suposed to cause us to become increasingly conscious of our sin and our broken hearts and twisted motives. It is holy because it is God's appointed tool to overwhelm us with appropriate guilt and to make us conscious of the curse under which we were born. It is holy because it breaks us on the Rock Who only can save us from the law's demands and consequences. Reality is so much bigger than we can see--we are limited by our three dimensions, and in our natural state, we are blind to spiritual reality. One of the things that astonishes me is that God really does reveal truth and what is universally real through Scripture and through the teaching of the Holy Spirit. The words on the pages of the Bible are quite unremarkable without our willingness to be taught by the Spirit as we read His words to us! Praise God for salvation! Colleen | ||
| Pw Registered user Username: Pw Post Number: 156 Registered: 6-2004 |
Well, it's no wonder certain SDA's feel empty if they are not reading the Word. They are trying to live up to EGW's standards instead, which are unachievable. | ||
| Cindy Registered user Username: Cindy Post Number: 681 Registered: 7-2000 |
Melissa, very good points about the law and it's CURSE! In my former Adventist mindset, the (Ten Commandment) "Law" almost had a life and personality of its' own! Something even above Christ...something that Jesus had to strive so hard to keep perfectly, in constant temptation lest he break one of its' "commands"... It is really a miracle to live in the reality of the New Covenant, striving not to keep the Law (even with Christ's "help"), but stiving only to be found IN JESUS, resting in all He has done for us and all the Spirit continues to do in us. It is just a completely different mindset! A LOVE relationship that is SECURE with God. Excellent explanation above, Colleen! I continually seem to have more and more layers of that Old Covenental "veil" lifted from my eyes the longer I am IN CHRIST! grace always, cindy | ||
| Tracey Registered user Username: Tracey Post Number: 55 Registered: 9-2004 |
That makes me so hopeful to hear you say that, Cindy! | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 750 Registered: 12-2003 |
I agree, Cindy, that "I continually seem to have more and more layers of the Old Covenantal 'veil' lifted from my eyes the longer I am IN CHRIST!" Richard and I saw part of a Mormon women's conference on the internet last night. It was amazing--the speaker we heard was "preaching" to her Mormon sisters, but what she was really doing was giving a motivational talk. It was peppered, though, with "the gospel", "sharing our faith", "witnessing to our neighbors", having the Holy Spirit, the peace and joy that comes from having this truth--it had such a familiar feeling/sound. It was a bit different from Adventism and a bit different from Christianity--but to a casual listener, it sounded authentic. It was the sort of talk that makes people say, "They are so sincere. They believe and live by all the light they have; surely God will honor that." Yet what I noticed was that the focus was on sharing their remarkable exprience in the church, not on sharing Jesus. She even talked about many Mormon women's shyness or reluctance or embarrassment to "share the gospel" with non-churched women. Wow, did that bring back a rush of feelings. I always used to feel that way! But it's different now; I feel a desire to share Jesus. Before, all I really had to share was a church although I understood that Jesus was the main "talking point" I had to use with non-Adventists. Near the conclusion of her talk, this woman told a personal experience in which she talked to a Jewish friend of hers after attending an LDS convention, and she said, "I love this church so much!!" It struck me quite forcefully that her sentiments reflect how I used to feel about Adventism. Even though it was crazy-making and inconsistent and full of corruption, I loved being an Adventist. I realized that now I don't have any feelings like that. I don't identify myself with a church. Now I'm just so grateful that God revealed himself to me, and I love Jesus. Deception really does differ from the real thing only subtley on the surface. Underneath, as we discover the truth, reality looks completely different, as Cindy indicated above. I am so thankful God reveals Himself when we really want to know Him. Colleen | ||
| Pw Registered user Username: Pw Post Number: 158 Registered: 6-2004 |
I watched the movie The Passion on dvd again last night, and seeing what Jesus went through with the scourging and crucifixtion, I couldn't help but think that he wasn't enduring this suffering and punishment in order for us to try and follow him through Sabbath keeping and diet restrictions. Shows how absurd the SDA doctrine really is. No wonder they didn't endorse the movie...well, only when it came to captializing on it by trying to attach their propaganda to it. | ||
| Tracey Registered user Username: Tracey Post Number: 56 Registered: 9-2004 |
What do you mean by didn't endorse it? Didn't approve of it? is that what you meant? Tracey | ||
| Pw Registered user Username: Pw Post Number: 160 Registered: 6-2004 |
Maybe I'm wrong but I don't think they did approve of the movie...basically because it is a film and being shown at the theatre. Something they frown down on automatically. Also because Mel Gibson is Catholic, something the SDA's really can't stand. | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 959 Registered: 11-2002 |
The local SDA church where my son attends has a monthly movie night. This month the movie was The Passion. Afterwards they had snacks and a discussion. | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 608 Registered: 3-2004 |
It is interesting what God has done to my mind. I have learned and I want to share what God does for me. Part of that I learned through my 12 step program and it has been re inforced with my acceptance of Jesus as my Saviour. When I was an SDA I could not share without first telling about the Sabbath and even then I did not do that well. I used to feel so guilty because I could not share what God did for me. I am so free now. My whole mind set has changed and it is toward God. Jesus is liberating and that in itself is awesome. Diana | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 963 Registered: 11-2002 |
What you said Cindy about the 10 Commandments being above Jesus is how I have the SDA's figured. I have delt with SDA's my entire life and I have great insight into their thinking (does that make me a prophet?). Their reasoning is that the 10 Commandments came 4000 years before Jesus so it's just plain obvious that they (the 10 Commandments) take presidence. And, then to inform them that Jesus was one with God from the beginning, well, let's just say the conversation goes downward very fast. The SDA's I frequent with then start name calling and intimadation or they suggest going shopping, anything to get out of the issue at hand. |
