| Author | Message | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 596 Registered: 3-2004 |
This evening after church services I called my younger sister and drove over to visit with her. She no longer lives as an SDA and has not for a long time, but she is still hanging on to something about the SDA church. I want to grab her and shake her and say, "what are you hanging onto that is so important?" I told her why I would not be SDA when I decided not to rejoin the SDA church. She listened and did not comment. Later, as I studied about the Sabbath in the NT, I told her what I was learning. She asked if we were to keep the other 9 commandments. At the time I had not got that far in my studies, so I said I would find out. When I did find the other 9 commandments were mentioned by Jesus and the apostles, that we were to keep them, I told her. When she does not want to hear more, I can tell by the look on her face, so I stop talking. Tonight she got that look on her face when I told her about the terrific sermon the pastor gave. I want to cry because I love my sister very much, as I love every member of my family. I am so angry at the SDA church for the hold it has on its members and those who were raised with their beliefs, and no longer practice them. It still has that demonic hold. It is something I do not understand. I let it get me angry and very frustrated. For my peace of mind I have to remember the sermon for tonight. The pastor made 2 points that I want to remember. 1. Trust God's timing 2. Depend on God's power. It is only through God that any of my family will be brought to see the truth of the Bible. I am human and I do get upset when my family cannot seem to understand what the Bible says or do not want to hear what it says. I am so thankful for this forum so I can vent that anger and frustration. Colleen and Richard, thank you very much and thanks to all of you who read/write here as you understand what I am talking about. I am letting go of the anger and frustration and letting God have them. It is in my best interest to remember how awesome God is and that He is still the ruler of the universe and is still in charge. Diana | ||
| Speakeasy Registered user Username: Speakeasy Post Number: 123 Registered: 9-2002 |
Flyinglady; You will never find another place that is like Former Adventist. Yes we are VERY VERY Lucky that Colleen and Richard have this web site. And let us Vent about our frustrations and let other people that have the or had the same frustrations and fears that you and I have. Your Sister sounds like she herself is searching and wanting to know the truth. Thanks for sharing your world with all of us. I will along with all of the others on this forum will keep you and your sister in our prayers. speakeasy | ||
| Vchowdhury1 Registered user Username: Vchowdhury1 Post Number: 40 Registered: 7-2004 |
Flyinglady, I know I've repeated this text several times in this forum, but its one that very hard for sda's to argue against. Have your sister read Romans, chapter 14 (with special emphasis on verses 5 - 12)from the New Living Bible translation. I find this leaves most sda's speechless. And yes, I agree, thank you Richard and Colleen for providing such a wonderful forum. I have learned so much! | ||
| Sabra Registered user Username: Sabra Post Number: 205 Registered: 10-2001 |
Diana, We really don't "keep" 9 of the commandments, we submit our lives to Jesus and He makes us to walk in love, which fulfills all of the commandments, (the law and the prophets) I know you know that, it's just a way of explaining it to your sister. | ||
| Krista Registered user Username: Krista Post Number: 22 Registered: 8-2004 |
Diana, I would highly recommend Greg Taylor's new book for your sister. It is written in truth, fully Bible based and has such a sense of gentleness, so it will not offend anyone. Even though I have already decided to quit the church, this book has been very enlightening to me and has helped me to discover the Bible verses SDAs seem to ignore. You're right, we need to trust in God's timing. All we can do is share and pray, but only God can touch their hearts. | ||
| Pw Registered user Username: Pw Post Number: 148 Registered: 6-2004 |
When I was in the SDA mind frame, I wouldn't budge if someone tried to convince me about Sunday keeping or the state of the dead. You are taught to reject any teaching outside this realm because we were convinced that we had that special truth (a true sign of a cult). Now I could kick myself for falling into such nonsense. All we can do is pray that those who are in the grip of this sect to be set free. | ||
| Dd Registered user Username: Dd Post Number: 144 Registered: 7-2004 |
I would like to say thanks to all whose efforts brought new stories to us - Rolaant, Rick and Sheryl, Kristy, Di, Colleen and Richard - I would like to have a book that would hold all these remarkable stories together. So much of what is shared in your stories/testimonies is familar and God uses these stories in my life to give me what I need each and everyday. I think the very hardest part of sharing my thoughts and love for Jesus and His New Covenant is knowing the thoughts that are running through the minds of SDA friends and family members as I am speaking. The glaze in their eyes and the set of the jaws tell me they are saying to themselves, "I knew this would happen! That non-denominational Bible study lead her astray!" I am grateful for the courage I have gained to speak up and continue speaking even through the glazed eyes and set jaws. I give Jesus and His Spirit all the credit because He promises I will receive the power I need to witness in Jerusalem (my family) and in Samaria (friends, neighbors, strangers)(See Acts 1:8). I also give this forum and the friendships, support, insight, knowledge...you all share through the power given you! | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 738 Registered: 12-2003 |
Dd, I have to grin as I read your description of the glazed eyes and set jaws. Oh, yes--I know those looks!! You know, Diana, I've been thinking lately about the reality that the "other nine" commandments are commanded in the NT but not the fourth. Literally, this idea is true. In practice and reality, however, I'm beginning to see that even the fourth is stressed--but in its fulfilled form. The fourth commandment told Israel to observe the seventh day as a holy day. It was "sacred time", so to speak. The Old Testament was full of sacred times, places, objects, and ceremonies. In the new covenant, there is nothing that's considered sacred except God and the body of Christ. Remember when Jesus told the Samaritan woman at the well that the time was coming and "is now here" when people will no longer worry about where they should go to worship God (Jerusalem was considered sacred by the Jews, and Bethel in the north was the Samarian's sacred city) because believers would worship God "in spirit and in truth". In other words, the idea of external sacred places, things, even times, is gone because Jesus has come and fulfilled all the symbolism of those amazing metaphors. Places such as Jerusalem, things such as the temple furniture, rituals such as the sacrificial ceremonies, and times such as the feast days and the 7th-day Sabbath are all created things. They are all part of our created world--even time--and all creation as we know it will be destroyed. The new heaven and the new earth will replace all creation as we know it. Revelation says that in heaven where God is there will be no sun, because the Lamb is the light. There will be no night--and no time. There will only be eternity. Passing days and nights that add up into months and years will be no more. Eternity is not endless time--it is something completely different from time. The seventh-day Sabbath was a created thing. It was a tangible shadow of a reality that was bigger than the physical earth--it was a shadow of Jesus and His eternal sacrifice, His eternal blood of the covenant, His eternally finished work on our behalf. Jesus fulfilled that shadow. Just as the New Covenant (including Jesus' teachings re: the law where he expanded the requirements for moral holiness to include even our thoughts and motives) asks us to honor God's eternal morality and to submit ourselves to His Spirit to make our hearts new in His perfect moral image, so the New Covenant exhorts us to live by the Spirit--to pray without ceasing, to make our only objective to live for Christ and to be living sacrifices to and for Him. In a very real way the New Covenant does ask us to honor the fourth commandment--but not in a literal, physical way. If we reduce the NT command to glorify Jesus to observing a created day, we have missed the point of the commandment completely. The Sabbath is a ceremonial law, just as the laws of sacrifice and food were ceremonial. It was put into the decalogue, however, because the rest, the freedom, the intimacy with God which it foreshadowed was the eternal core of our becoming righteous, moral beings made new by the eternal blood of Jesus mediated in our lives by the power of the Holy Spirit. Sabbath rest IS eternal. It is not remotely about a day. Yet the shadow--the day--is the center of the Ten Commandments because only Sabbath rest in Christ enables us to be counted righteous. Only true Sabbath rest in Christ causes God to count us as keeping the law perfectly, because He sees Jesus' holiness when He looks at us. Our central command is to trust Jesus, to submit to His sacrifice and His regeneration of us. That is what the Sabbath forewshadowed. That is the core, the center of our becoming truly righteous in God's eyes. That core is the means to our having the Holy Spirit change our hearts and desires so we will honor God and choose to surrender our sinful desires to Him so He can change our behaviors into acts of surrender to Him instead of acts of self-protection and selfishness. Yes, we experience the reality of the shadow of the fourth commandment. That reality is the center of the New Covenant--and the center of the whole Bible. It is Jesus Christ. It is the mystery of Christ in us, the hope of glory. Priase God! Colleen | ||
| Dd Registered user Username: Dd Post Number: 146 Registered: 7-2004 |
Colleen, Beautiful last paragraph that sums it all up. Thank you! | ||
| Vchowdhury1 Registered user Username: Vchowdhury1 Post Number: 41 Registered: 7-2004 |
What is the best way to answer sda's when they argue that the sabbath was NOT JUST a part of the the Jewish ceremonial law, because it was designated and made holy by God at the very end of CREATION before there even was a Jew? This seems to be their favorite answer when a non-sda Christian tries to talk to them about the new covenant. --Valerie | ||
| Sabra Registered user Username: Sabra Post Number: 207 Registered: 10-2001 |
Does anyone have any ideas on the Sabbath observance in the millineum? Does it look like the Jews still observe it there, those that aren't saved maybe? Is. 66 is always brought up by Messianics and they believe everyone will worship in Jerusalem. I guess I haven't studied into it enough yet. | ||
| Dd Registered user Username: Dd Post Number: 147 Registered: 7-2004 |
Valerie, Dale Ratzlaf has laid out a great study of Sabbath and Creation in his book "Sabbath in Christ" using many different Bible texts. If you have an opportunity to get the book, I think you will find it highly valuable. In short look at Genesis 2. There is no command for mankind to rest on the 7th day along with God. God rested. He stepped back to view the world's beauty and He liked what He saw. There is no mention of evening and morning. The day of rest was to continue on forever. The work of creation was finished because God did not have an 8th day of Creation planned. God intended for man to enjoy God's completed work always and forever but sin got in the way of His plan. "Work" began at that time. No Sabbath day mentioned. In fact the first mention of a Sabbath day is not until Ex. 16:23 - 2500 years after Creation. Look at the stories following the story of Creation. There is no mention of Sabbath worship/rest in the Abel and Cain story. Even the 4 short verses of Enoch (Gen. 5:21-24) - all it says is Enoch walked with God his whole life (365 years - just like we should have our Sabbath rest in Jesus 365 days out of the year!!). You won't find any mention of Sabbath in the Noah story either. These are important, Godly men! Wouldn't there be any mention of keeping the Sabbath holy if Sabbath had really been a part of Creation? Abraham did not rest on a Sabbath day. Paul tells us in Gal. 3:17 that Abraham was righteous way before God even introduced the 10 Commandments. If God had set up the Sabbath day of rest at Creation, don't you think He would have made sure Abraham was aware of it? Abraham followed all of the commands God gave Him to show his faith. We have record of all the commands obeyed by Abraham (leaving his home, circumcision, sacrificing Isaac). Surely God would have reminded him or instructed him on Sabbath if that was part of His creation plan, wouldn't He? He was very specific with Abraham about all the other expectations He had. Valerie, I hope this little synopsis of what I have found is helpful. I am sure there are many others on this forum that can spell it out better. The beauty is that once we study the Bible without SDA blinders, it is all very clear. Best wishes. | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 395 Registered: 7-2003 |
Valerie and Sabra, you might want to check out this article from Pastor Clay Peck: http://www.graceplace.org/page/message/SabbathObservance.doc Pastor Peck deals with both of the passages that you two cite (Gen. 2 & Is. 65-66) in his article. The other possiblity that I would place along side Pastor Peck's exegesis of Isaiah 65 & 66, is that Isaiah may have been using Old Covenant language (understandable to the audience he was writing to) to describe New Covenant realities that they could not fully comprehend. One thing seems clear though, if you start reading at Ch. 65, this can't be describing the final state, not unless you believe there will still be death, Levitical priests, grain offerings, etc. in the final state. The second thing that stand out to me is that if you take this prophetic passage as a mandate to keep the weekly Sabbath, then you would be forced to keep the new moon sabbaths by the same logic. On the Genesis 2 question, you may also want to check out the first chapter ("The First Mention of the Seventh-day") of a longer online study called "The Biblical Truth About the Sabbath". I especially like the Q&A fomat he uses to go through Gen. 2:1-3 inductively. The direct link to chapter 1 is here: http://www.sabbaths.org/first.html You can access all chapter in the study by starting here: http://www.sabbaths.org/sabbath.html I hope those links are helpful! Chris | ||
| Sabra Registered user Username: Sabra Post Number: 211 Registered: 10-2001 |
Chris, I understand that Is. 66 is talking about the millineal reign where there will still be people dying and saved and born and I understand that the church will be ruling and reigning with Christ as part of the government. It messes up everything we were taught but Christ is coming back to a world that wont be perfect until after the 1000 years ends and the New Jerusalem descends. What I'm not sure about is whether or not the earth will have sun and moon during that time, from what I can find the temple will have the light of Jesus but not sure about the rest of the world. | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 396 Registered: 7-2003 |
Sabra, the idea that Is. 65-66 is talking about events during an earthly millenial reign after the second coming is only one possible interpretation. Whether or not you find it to be a convincing interpretation really depends on your escatological framework. I would certainly allow that it's possible, but one need not hang their hat on this particular interpretation as many commentators vary on this point. There are at least three major interpretations of Is. 66 that I have found. I am not dogmatic about any one of the three becasue the Bible simply doesn't give us enough data to be dogmatic. It is interesting though. Chris | ||
| Esther Registered user Username: Esther Post Number: 65 Registered: 5-2004 |
Valerie, Another interesting thing is in Leviticus 23 God has Moses list out the "sabbath days" that the Israelites were to observe. Funny how there's no distiction between them. They are all considered sabbaths. I find SDA's generally aren't aware of this as they try to argue that the Sabbath was separate from the Levitical law, but rather, it was built right in. | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 498 Registered: 7-2003 |
I had always asked B where he got the idea that worship was required on the sabbath. The 10 Cs (Exodus version only please...) never mentions worship in reference to the Sabbath. When he used that reasoning with someone at his church, they went running to Lev 23 to "prove" that worship was expected on the sabbath. When I pointed out that Lev 23 calls the sabbath one of the feast days, not part of a moral code as he insists, he says Lev 23 isn't part of the law. Very circular reasoning, when convenient. My personal opinion is that people who really want to know what the Bible says might be open to scripture, but people who are looking to it to prove their already-made-up-minds will never see the scripture as a whole except for the bits and pieces that support what they want to believe. That's not limited to SDAs. | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 947 Registered: 11-2002 |
I recently had a similiar discussion with a family member. This person kept saying the regular SDA line, "If the law is no longer in effect then is it o.k to kill? Is it o.k., then to steal?" You all know the line, I'm sure. I told him, "Jesus was asked those questions. You can read it for yourself. Jesus said when asked about killing that even to have hatred in your heart towards another is to have killed that person in your heart. Jesus said to even look on a woman with lust is to have committed adultry. I explained that the 10 Commandments are over with but we are under what I call "heart law", meaning that God now looks at our hearts". I don't think I made too much of an impact but I hope I at least planted a seed of thought. | ||
| Pw Registered user Username: Pw Post Number: 151 Registered: 6-2004 |
That's exactly the kind of double talk that the SDA programs into the minds of their flock. They try to justify keeping the sabbath by way of the law and will use any scripture (even if it's taken out of context) to justify it. In reality, I don't think they really know what they are trying to say, only repeating what they've heard from the pulpit or read in EGW's books. | ||
| Vchowdhury1 Registered user Username: Vchowdhury1 Post Number: 42 Registered: 7-2004 |
Sda's are very inconsistant because they will tell you that the only thing that was "nailed to the cross" was the old Leviticus laws, but yet they still do not eat certain things such as fish without "scales and fins", and anything that does not "chew the cud", or have "split" hoofs! Well, hold on a minute! Wasn't this part of the old Leviticus laws? And also, then, if they're going to follow some of these laws shouldn't they follow all of them? |
