| Author | Message | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 408 Registered: 7-2003 |
Dane, I am planning on tying all this together at some point, but I don't want to jump right to explanations without first making an effort to lay out the Biblical basis for my conclusions. Once we know what the Bible teaches on this, then we can begin to discern the big picture. As to Gen. 1:26, I personally see some significance to the use of a plural word for "God", elohiym, but even the conservative commentators are by no means in complete agreement as to how much reliance we should place upon the grammar here as a trinitarian proof text. As Speakeasy has said, this text is not conslusive, so I tend to steer away from it in favor of texts that are quite clear indeed. That's just my approach, but as I said, I think you're probably right to place some significance on this passage. Chris | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 409 Registered: 7-2003 |
Okay, so far we have looked at the following truths from scripture: 1) There is only one God (YHWH). 2) The Father, Son, and Spirit are personally distinct. 3) a) The Father is God Tonight I will begin presenting scripture that teaches the following: 3) b) The Son is God. (Jesus Christ is God) I'll start with explicit statements: 6 For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. Isaiah 9:6 (NASB) * The "son" prophesied of in this text is the Messiah, Jesus Christ. His attributes are given including the fact that He is the Mighty God. It should be noted that this text does not teach, that the Son is the Father, only that one of His attributes is that He is the father of eternity, or in other words, totally possess, is over and above, is the very creator of eternity. 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. John 1:1 (NASB) The subject of John ch. 1 is Jesus Christ, the Word made flesh. The very first verse clearly states that not only was He with God from the beginning, but He literally WAS God. 28 Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!" John 20:28 (NASB) Jesus allowed Thomas to worship and address Him as God. Please note that only God almighty is worthy to be worshipped. 11 "You are worthy, our Lord and God, to receive glory and honor and power, for you created all things, and by your will they existed and were created." Rev 4:11 (NRSV) 18 No one has ever seen God. It is God the only Son, who is close to the Father's heart, who has made him known. John 1:18 (NRSV) The best manuscripts have "the unique God" (monogenes, frequently rendered "only-begotten," actually means "one of a kind," "unique"). Here Jesus is specifically called "God the only (or unique) Son". 28 "Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood. Acts 20:28 (NASB) God purchased His Church with "His own blood" the blood of Jesus, God the Son. 13 looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus, Titus 2:13 (NASB) Grammatically and contextually, this is one of the strongest proof-texts for the deity of Christ. Sharp's first rule, properly understood, proves that the text should be translated "our great God and Savior" 8 But of the Son He says, "YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER, AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM. Heb 1:8 (NASB) Here the Son, Jesus Christ, is addressed by the Father as "God". 1 Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ: 2 Peter 1:1 (NASB) The same construction is used here as in Titus 2:13. 20 And we know that the Son of God has come, and has given us understanding so that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life. 1 John 5:20 (NASB) Note that the most obvious antecedent for "this" is Jesus Christ. Also note that the "eternal life" is Christ, as can be seen from 1:2. 2 and the life was manifested, and we have seen and testify and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was manifested to usó 1 John 1:2 (NASB) Next time I will post just a handful of texts showing that Jesus is YHWH/Jehovah. If you would like to see a much more extensive list of text showing that Jesus has all of the attributes of YHWH, please do a search for my thread titled, "Is Yeshua of Nazareth YHVH?" Chris | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 410 Registered: 7-2003 |
Errr.....three post up.....the word would be "foundational".....I really must learn to proof-read........ :-) | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 510 Registered: 7-2003 |
Speakeasy, there is nothing Biblical or unbiblical about spelling God G-d. If you are more comfortable not spelling out God, I don't think it is offensive to anyone and I would not suggest you go against your conscience in your reverence to God. | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 983 Registered: 11-2002 |
O.K., Chris, I am learning a lot from you. I actually sit with pad and pen in front of this machine and jot down the texts you give and then later look them up. I have some questions. Unlike Speakeasy I just do not concern myself with wondering about my salvation. I figure I'm not too bad of a person and I've got Jesus as my #1 in my heart so I can go days partying and having a good time. There are several local places to party down that I like to frequent. I like rum, a lot of rum and no, I'm not an alcoholic. I just like to have a good time. I am wondering if there is such a thing as being too secure in knowing one is saved? This is another thing that has led me to the Lutheran. Many of the Lutherans I know are very secure in knowing they are saved. They can have so much fun. Good clean-cut fun. Growing up SDA I was more-or-less taught that it is wrong to enjoy anything, if something brings pleasure then it is bad. And, honestly, I don't do bad things, I just like to have a good time. Then sometimes, usually after I've had to spend time with SDA's, I start wondering if it realy is o.k. to enjoy life so much. I like to go to concerts. This really is bad to SDA's. I have gone to hear The Doobie Brothers twice in the past several years. You know, fun things. | ||
| Speakeasy Registered user Username: Speakeasy Post Number: 141 Registered: 9-2002 |
If you have been told that you must except the Trinity for your salvation. Because if you do not except the trinity as it is tuaght you are serving the wrong Jesus. Then you would concern yourself if you did not see it because you do not understand it and do not see it. It is wonderfull that you and other people can say that "Even though I don't see it or can not explain it. I except it." If you can not understand it. Then how can you see it and if you can not understand it and people say you must except it. You see my point! It is a loosing cause. I am very much concerned about my salavtion about this subject. If I have to I can copy and past the emails from people that post on the forum on what they said about this subject to me. You would not believe what KEY people on this forum have told me. So yes I am very much concerned about my salvation. Speakeasy | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 766 Registered: 12-2003 |
Susan, the Bible is clear that we are to be completely confident that when we have been born again by accepting Jesus' sacrifice for us and receiving His Spirit as His affirmation and guarantee of our eternal future, we are saved. The Holy Spirit is God's gift to us when we accept Jesus, and He is responsible now for the fact that we can grow in Jesus. Once we're saved, we have a lifetime (and an eternity) of learning and growing that's now possible. 1 Corinthians 6:12 says, " 'Everything is permissible for me"--but not everything is beneficial. 'Everything is permissible for me'--but I will not be mastered by anything." We are completely free from the external regulations of the law, and Colossians 2:20-23 clarifies that rules about foods and restrictions have absolutely no power to make us pure or to restrain "our sensual induglence." After we are saved, though, we still have mortal flesh that fights against the Holy Spirit in us. As Paul said in Ropmans 7:25b, "I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin." When we are in Christ, our bodies are "dead because of sin," but our "spirit[s are] alive becaue of righteousness." And the Holy Spirit in us, who raised Jesus from the dead, will bring life our mortal bodies. (Romans 8:10-11) This struggle between what our flesh desires and what our born-again spirits desire will stay with us for the rest of our earthly lives. Yet in that struggle there is hope and victory and surrender and growth. I believe our calling as Christ followers is not to focus primarily on evaluating our behaviors, but we are to seek to know and grow in Jesus. I love Paul's prayer for the Ephesians in Ephesians 1:17-19, "I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the Spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe." God's call to us is to know Him and to grow in Him. Peter calls us as true Christians "a chose people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God." (1 Peter 2:9) He further says, "Dear friends, I urge you, as aliens and strangers in the world, to abstain from sinful desires, which war against your soul. Live such good lives among the pagans that, though they accuse you of doing wrong, they may see your good deeds and glorify God on the day he visits us." (1 Peter 2:11-12) The only way we can really grow in Christ and in wisdom and understanding is to spend time in the Bible. It doesn't have to be hours a day, but even starting with 10 or 15 minutes a day of reading scripture, praying that God will teach you what you need to know and will reveal truth to you, will begin to change your perspective,to make you confident about things that seem confusing, and to convinct you of the things in your personal experience He wants to change in you. We can't, by looking from the outside, know what God wants to deal with first in any or our lives. But we do know that He is committed to establishing us in truth. Our willingness to know and to surrender when He convicts us is what facilitates our growth. Jesus will show you what you need to know, teach you what you need to learn, and change in you what needs to be changed. All you must do is say "Yes" to His work in you. Commit yourself to Bible study and to knowing and growing in God's will. This growing in Jesus is not for salvation; your salvation is already secure when you have accepted Him and surrendered your heart to His death and resurrection for you. This growing is the result of salvation, but we limit it when we do not spend time in His word and in prayer for His wisdom and revelation. It's such a wonderful thing to know that even my growth is not about me; it's God's work in me, and because I am His, He will pursue me and bring me to places where I admit my need of Him. Colleen | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 411 Registered: 7-2003 |
Susan, I'm not sure if your question was addressed to me in particular, but I sure couldn't have given a better answer than Colleen's! Chris | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 412 Registered: 7-2003 |
Speakeasy, I just wanted to take a second to address several comments that have come up within this thread that are not directly related to the subject at hand, but are interesting none the less: 1) The tradition of leaving the vowels out of God's name is an ancient and honorable one. The ancient Hebrews never fully wrote or pronounced the proper name of God. This was done out of respect for the Holiness of God and His name. The only thing we know about the proper name for God is the consonants, usually transliterated as ìYHWHî or sometimes transliterated at ìYHVHî. The Hebrews intentionally left the vowels out. This consonant grouping is referred to as the tetragramatton and we have no idea how it should really be pronounced. Our best guesses include Yahweh and Jehovah, but both are just that, guess. Some individuals and groups today continue to honor the holy name of God by dropping the vowel, ìG_dî. This is the modern English equivalent of YHWH. I think this is a very respectful custom and their certainly is nothing wrong with it. However, I do think the following texts are interesting indeed: 14 For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15 For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, "Abba! Father!" 16 The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him. Romans 8:14-17 (NASB) 1 Now I say, as long as the heir is a child, he does not differ at all from a slave although he is owner of everything, 2 but he is under guardians and managers until the date set by the father. 3 So also we, while we were children, were held in bondage under the elemental things of the world. 4 But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law, 5 so that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons. 6 Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, "Abba! Father!" 7 Therefore you are no longer a slave, but a son; and if a son, then an heir through God. Gal 4:1-7 (NASB) Notice the use of the term ìAbbaî. Abba is an Aramaic word that can only be used by a child for their father. It is a term of closeness and endearment. Our closest equivalent is ìDaddyî. God has adopted us as His children through Jesus Christ and he is now our heavenly Daddy!!! What a concept. The gulf between us and God has forever been bridged by Jesus Christ and we are now able to approach the Father with the same intimacy with which we approach our Daddy! This suggests to me that while we continue to honor the name of God and keep it holy, there is no mandate to avoid addressing Him by His name. Rather we may now address Him in the most intimate fashion. 2) Speakeasy, the second thought I wanted to address was related to salvation. I truly hope you understand that I am not approaching this dialogue from the standpoint of ìYouíre not saved if you donít believeÖÖÖ..î. Rather I am attempting, to the best of my ability to address the agonizing lack of assurance and peace your have described. It is my belief that if we are going to put our full faith and trust in Jesus for our salvation, then we want to be absolutely sure that we are putting our faith in a REAL Jesus, the Jesus of scripture. I would further contend that faith in a false Jesus or a lesser Jesus will never produce the assurance and peace you are seeking. I just wanted to make sure that you understand that I am posting on this subject not in a spirit of condemnation, but because I truly believe that having a full, true, Biblical picture of the real Jesus Christ will help you immensely. I believe that embracing the real Jesus in all His deity, in all His divine glory will cause you to experience the peace, assurance, and understanding you seek. Chris | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 413 Registered: 7-2003 |
Okay, so far we have looked at the following truths from scripture: 1) There is only one God (YHWH). 2) The Father, Son, and Spirit are personally distinct. 3) a) The Father is God Last night I began presenting scriptures that explicitly state that: 3) b) The Son is God. (Jesus Christ is God) Tonight I will continue to present scriptures that teach this truth by citing scriptures which show that Jesus is YHWH. 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED." 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13 for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED." Romans 10:9-13 (NASB) Note the repeated "for," which links these verses closely together. The "Lord" of 10:13 must be the "Lord" of 10:9, 12. The capitalized portion of 10:13 is a quote from Joel 2:32 where the Hebrew clearly says ìYHWHî (remember that ìLordî is the Greek equivalent for YHWH in the LXX and NT). 9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Phil 2:9-11 (NASB) In context, the "name that is above every name" is "Lord" (vs. 11), i.e., YHWH. ìEvery knee will bowî is a quote from Is. 45:23 where YHWH swears that every knee will bow to Him, YWHW. 10 And, "YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH, AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS; Heb 1:10 (NASB) Here God the Father addresses the Son as "Lord," in a quotation of Psa. 102:25 (cf. 102:24, where the person addressed is called "God"). Since here the Father addresses the Son as "Lord," this cannot be explained away as a text in which a creature addresses Christ as God/Lord in a merely representational sense. 3 if you have tasted the kindness of the Lord. 1 Peter 2:3 (NASB) This verse is nearly an exact quotation of Psa. 34:8a, where "Lord" is YHWH. From 1 Pet. 2:4-8 it is also clear that "the Lord" in v. 3 is Jesus. 14 But even if you should suffer for the sake of righteousness, you are blessed. AND DO NOT FEAR THEIR INTIMIDATION, AND DO NOT BE TROUBLED, 15 but sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts, always being ready to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you, yet with gentleness and reverence; 1 Peter 3:14-15 (NASB) These verses are a clear reference to Isa. 8:12-13, where the one who is to be regarded as holy is YHWH. Next time I post, I will continue in the same vein by presenting scripture that shows that Jesus has the titles of God. Chris | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 414 Registered: 7-2003 |
Hmmmmm......after I posted I reread this line: "(remember that "Lord" is the Greek equivalent for YHWH in the LXX and NT)". That was rather poorly written on my part. Of course the word "Lord" is not Greek; it's an English translation of "kurios" which is Greek. When the 70 elders translated the Hebrew Bible into Greek (the Septuagint or LXX), they translated all occurrences of "YHWH" as "kurios" (or Lord). The LXX was the Bible that Jesus, the NT writers, and nearly all other Jews of the time used. So when the NT writers quote texts from the LXX speaking of the "kurios" (the Lord) and then apply these texts to Jesus, they were very clearly and plainly saying that Jesus was the Lord/YHWH of the OT. Likewise when the NT writers continually give Jesus the title of Lord (kurios) throughout their writings it would be impossible for any Jewish person familiar with the LXX to misunderstand their intent. They were proclaiming Jesus as Lord and God (YHWH). I hope that clears up my earlier blunder :-) Chris | ||
| 33ad Registered user Username: 33ad Post Number: 20 Registered: 10-2004 |
Hi Chris, We should also note that the LXX was the most used version of the OT at the time of Christ. And the early Christian Church only trusted the LXX as the true word. The Hebrews had taken liberties at times with their transcribing and changed Isaiah 7:14 - 'The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son' to 'the young woman will be with child'. That changed the whole meaning of the text an does away with the Virgin birth. Loren | ||
| Speakeasy Registered user Username: Speakeasy Post Number: 142 Registered: 9-2002 |
Chris I have not taken anything you have posted as directed to me only the things you have asked me. Those are the ones that are for me. I still do not understand your study on saying that Jesus is god. If Jesus is god then why did Jesus give his body and soul to G-d on the cross. If Jesus is god why did he give his life to himself? If Jesus is god ,why would we need Jesus to be our go-between, Between Jesus and G-d. Why would Jesus say He was sent by G-d himself. The Book of John is loaded with verse after verse that Jesus says he is not greater than his Father and he was sent by his father. And if you do not believe in me you do not believe my father. and Paul says he is an apostle of God and our lord Jesus Christ. I don't understand. I want to give my life over to the same G-d that Jesus gave his life to on the cross. Can I go directly to that G-d that Jesus gave his life to and be saved? Speakeasy | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 987 Registered: 11-2002 |
Again, How come Jesus prayed, My God, My God, Why have you forsaken me?" Also, when Jesus was dead for three days was there no God in the Universe? I remember reading in the N.T. that people actually bowed to Jesus and prayed to Him. If you want me to I will find the texts that say so and post them here. So, how come Jesus prayed when folks were praying to Him? Did he pray to himself? | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 522 Registered: 7-2003 |
Well, I'm going to stick my nose in this discussion to see if I can make describe it from my mind's eye. Jesus came to give his life as a sacrifice...the sacrificial lamb as pictured in the Old Testament festivals. Who he was as a human doesn't change that he was also God. I can be a wife, a sister and a mother. Jesus "role" on earth was messiah. But his eternal role in the cosmos is also God. As Chris is doing, we can read the scripture. If we are going to take the scripture as authoritative, that doesn't mean we are "bad" if we can't make logic out of it in our minds. Maybe it's like having 3 kings in a kingdom, where each king operates individually and has duties and roles, but each is equally king and due all respect as king. I don't know. I haven't see it with my eyes, only read it's descriptions...like reading about heaven. I can't imagine what it looks like exactly, but the Bible says it exists and I believe it. But I can't draw it on a map or define it's coordinates in space. Jesus became our mediator in the symbolic way the OT priests used to be the "mediator" in the OT sacrificial system. We can go directly to the throne of God not because of who we are but because Christ paved the road with his blood. His sacrifice has been accepted once and for all, no rope with bells on the waist to pull the guy out if God didn't like it. The perfect sacrifice has been accepted on our behalf. And the Holy Spirit is our internal comforter...not because I can make logical sense of it, but because that's how the Bible describes him. If one chooses to accept the Bible as the word of God, including the description of God in the New Testament, whether or not I can make "logical" human sense of it is secondary. The Bible says it, I believe it and that is it. Jesus was talking to the father when he prayed. If you want to look at it in earthly terms, look at it as husband/wife duty. I'd really rather the husband go through labor and birth. I can have that discussion with my husband all I want, but the role is mine...that's the way it is. Does that mean I can't or shouldn't talk to my husband about my "fears" or "concerns" about the process? no. It's not a perfect human picture of Jesus talking to the Father...we have no earthly equal, but the way of salvation from the foundation of the earth was for Jesus to be our messiah. In his human emotion physical state, I'm sure he was experiencing human emotions and physical pain. That doesn't change his intrinsic nature as God. But for a while, he also walked as human. Again, I can't explain it, just accept that is how the Bible paints God: the Father, Christ and the Holy Spirit. If I'm going to use my husband/wife analogy, kids can ask Mom or they can ask Dad. They're asking parents. It's not perfect because mom and dad are not in perfect communion with each other, and the inner workings of the Godhead are not as human relations are, but praying to Jesus, praying to the father, praying to the Holy Spirit is still all praying to God. There are some interesting perspecives on the "God forsaking Jesus" statement. Some say it was the separation he felt from God, some say it is fulfilling an OT statement he makes, Maybe Chris will address it further down the line of his study. As far as dead for 3 days, if you think death is a ceasing to exist, I guess you might see Jesus as ceasing to exist , but Jesus alone is not God. And the Bible describes him as having descended into the lower parts of the earth, not ceasing to exist. We really don't know what Jesus did, where he was or anything else beyond what scripture tells us about the days he was "in the grave". But God has never been out of touch or "dead" or not in complete control. He allows things, but that is vastly different than out of control. Maybe i'm just muddying the waters. As imperfect as these analogies may be, they are a way I try to put in human terms a God concept. But at some level, I'm just accepting what scripture says is true, though I can't put it in human terms for someone else. In my mind's eye, it makes a degree of sense to me and the rest if just faith in the Word of God. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 772 Registered: 12-2003 |
The point about the Trinity that is so mysterious (that word simply means "not fully revealed or explained", and not "mystical") is that the One God is Three Persons. Jesus prayed to the Father because He was a separate person. Yet, as Chris has shown us, Jesus is also the eternal God of the Old Testament. the Trinity didn't just happen when Christ became incarnate. It has existed for eternity. The separate person of Jesus was not clearly revealed until Jesus came to earth and died. They are three distinct persons with one purpose. The members of the Trinity are not vying for power as the Greek gods did. They are equally God and equally powerful and sovereign--all with the same purpose and reason for being. They do not have three equally important "purposes" or "agendas"--they share one eternal purpose and vision. Salvation is from God in Three Persons, not just Jesus. The gifts of justification and sanctification and fruit of the Spirit and gifts of the Spirit are from God in three Persons. The Trinity is completely united in purpose and power and identity. They have differing roles, or "jobs", in a sense, but they are One God. A limited analogy might be the church. All Christ-followers are the body of Christ. We are individual with distinct gifts, and each of us represents a different "body part", so to speak. If one of us dies, however, the church does not die, although it suffers loss. As Christ-followers we are one church because of the presence of God in us through the indwelling Holy Spirit. We are in Christ and Christ is in the Father, and we are all one. Further, Jesus was raised to life by the Spirit of God--which was His own Spirit. This reality is also a mystery which God has not fully explained to us. But we know that we have new birth and permanent adoption into God's family because of that same Spirit. Our God cannot be completely understood. Chris's studies, though, are an excellent help in seeing how the Bible explains the identity of each member of the Trinity and the mystery of God in Three Persons. Colleen | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 418 Registered: 7-2003 |
Speakeasy and Susan, you're questions are great! I hope you won't be too terribly offended if I keep track of them and address them when I am all through with each of the other points. Your questions really call for pulling it all together, and right now I'm trying very hard to just address each individual point of truth without trying to formulate a comprehensive statement (yet). I think Melissa makes some very good points and I will add some thoughts on Jesus' "My God, my God" statement when I address it later (hint: study Psalms 22). I also think Colleen makes some good points. I would just add that not only is YHWH three persons who are united in purpose, power, and identity, but YHWH is three persons who are united in ONE SINGLE BEING (but more on that later). Chris | ||
| Dd Registered user Username: Dd Post Number: 158 Registered: 7-2004 |
Chris, What is your background? Thanks for sharing all your research and insight. | ||
| Speakeasy Registered user Username: Speakeasy Post Number: 143 Registered: 9-2002 |
So can I go directly to G-d for Salvation or do I go through Jesus Since Colleen you said Salvation is not just Jesus. Still there has got to be one person in Charge. If Jesus is in Charge then G-d is not. That would make Jesus #1 then G-d #2. The buck has got to stop at one person. Who did Jesus give his spirit up to and who did Jesus pray to and talk to? That is the one I want to give my life to. If it would be any other G-d. That would be worshiping other G-ds. speakeasy | ||
| Esther Registered user Username: Esther Post Number: 71 Registered: 5-2004 |
I don't know if this is on track or not, but a good friend of mine uses the analogy of water. Water in it's natural state is the basic element, but it also has two different forms. Ice and steam/vapor. Just like water. God is one God. But He has 3 different and distinct forms. Don't know if that works or not, but I thought it was good when I heard it. |
