| Author | Message | ||
| 33ad Registered user Username: 33ad Post Number: 28 Registered: 10-2004 |
Speakeasy, this is quite a difficult concept, I know. But there is only ONE GOD, in THREE PERSONS. We have only been told that they are God - The Father, God - The Son and God - The Holy Spirit. One does not exist without the other.The Triune God was present at Jesus Baptism. God - The Father, called out from Heaven to announce that God - The Son, was his "Son" in whom he was well pleased, while God - The Holy Spirit decended onto the Son in the form of a dove. This is something that all new Christians have to take by faith. We can't show you, you just have to believe it. When you do, God (The Triune God)will reveal himself by making a change in your life. We're praying for you. Loren | ||
| Tracey Registered user Username: Tracey Post Number: 65 Registered: 9-2004 |
I am surprised about this topic. I never knew it was confusing for people.. wow! Well, simply put : it's God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. God operates as each of them in unique way. Kinda like an egg. There's the shell, the yolk, and the white.. Still an egg, but different parts have different characteristics. I hope that helps. It just seems so simple to me but I have no "religious" background either. God operates in his power, which is called the Holy Spirit. God and his Holy Spirit are one in the same. God, the spirit came to earth as a human as the Lord Jesus. The Father and Son are one in the same. Jesus performed miracles by the power of the Holy Spirit. Jesus was perfect so again, He is not separate from the Holy Spirit that operates in Him. There's a scripture in the Psalms that says "The Lord said unto My Lord.." God has given authority to his son and that's him being Lord. And since we were made in the image of God, the structure of family on earth mimics the heavenly Father having a Son with whom he can commune and love and all the mushy stuff. ;) | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 780 Registered: 12-2003 |
Chris, thank you for clarifying that the Trinity is three in ONE BEING--I really didn't say that clearly, but I absolutely believe it. Speakeasy, the mystery of three in one is a reality that we can only accept by faith. While we have dozens of Bible texts that support this idea and without them we would have no basis for either understanding or belief in this concept, the final embracing of this idea comes by faith, just as salvation does. The entire Trinity is in charge of salvation. That means we must accept that the Father gave His Son who gave His life and took it back again by the Holy Spirit...they are all inseparable. And as Loren said, when you surrender yourself to the truth about God and by faith reach out to grasp what we cannot see, the triune God will reveal Himself to you. The Trinity will be real, and you will KNOW the three Persons are real and distinct--and you will KNOW they are God! The bottom line, again, is obedience. When we finally understand what the Bible teaches (and Chris is doing a really comprehensive study to show what the Bible teaches on this subject), we have two choices: either we accept or reject what the Bible says. Acceptance is by faith--rarely does the Bible's teaching make purely rational sense, because it teaches spiritual truth. We only understand it by the power of the Holy Spirit in our spirit. When we know what it teaches, however--when our minds have taken in the facts but our hearts rebel, that is the point where we must make a decision. We can say NO, that doesn't make sense. Or we can say, Yes, I understand God says and demonstrates that this truth is real. I don't understand it, but I accept it--and I surrender my unbelief to you, God. By faith I accept and embrace this truth. Please establish me in this truth. It's only when we take the risk of surrendering and obeying what the Bible teaches that we really "see" the glorious truth behind the words of Scripture. This issue is not a crisis of facts or a subject for argument; this issue is a crisis of faith. You must know the Biblical facts before you can take the risk of faith, but once you know the facts, you must consciously decide either to accept them or to reject them. There are only those two choices, and confidence and understanding come only with the choice to be obedient to the heavenly word, as Paul said about his conversion. With prayers for you, Speakeasy, Colleen | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 12 Registered: 10-2004 |
Speakeasy, "Jesus said to him, 'I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me." (John 14:6 NASB.) We come to the Father through the Son's life, death, and resurrection, when the Spirit regenerates our spirits (the new birth/being born again). Jeremy | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 419 Registered: 7-2003 |
Before I continue on with the study tonight, I would like to highlight something excellent that Colleen said above: "The bottom line, again, is obedience. When we finally understand what the Bible teaches...we have two choices: either we accept or reject what the Bible says...When we know what it teaches...that is the point where we must make a decision. We can say 'NO, that doesn't make sense'. Or we can say, 'Yes, I understand God says and demonstrates that this truth is real. I don't understand it, but I accept it--and I surrender my unbelief to you, God. By faith I accept and embrace this truth. Please establish me in this truth.'" That is so dead on and it is exactly the reason I am trying to focus questions and discussion on one truth at a time and the scripture that teaches that truth. It's too easy to jump right to debating possible objections to the whole without taking the time to examine each of the foundational parts. This can lead to obscuring the basic truths that scripture teaches in dozens of places. So we need to look at each truth, decide if the scripture actually teaches this, and if it does than we move on from there to try and put it all together. So far I believe we have seen strong (I would say irrefutable) scriptural support for the following truths: 1) There is only one God (YHWH). 2) The Father, Son, and Spirit are personally distinct. 3) a) The Father is God I have also presented quite a bit of scripture on the following truth that I believe is taught just as strongly: 3) b) The Son is God. (Jesus Christ is God) Tonight, I continue in this same vein by showing from scripture that Jesus has the titles of God. The following are titles belonging only to GOD. THE FIRST AND THE LAST- 6 "Thus says the LORD (YHWH), the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD (YHWH) of hosts: 'I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides, Me. Isaiah 44:6 (NASB) 17 When I saw Him [Jesus Christ], I fell at His feet like a dead man. And He placed His right hand on me, saying, "Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last, Rev 1:17 (NASB) 13 "I [Jesus Christ] am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end." Rev 22:13 (NASB) KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS- 15 which He will bring about at the proper timeóHe who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 1 Tim 6:15 (NASB) 14 "These will wage war against the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, because He is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those who are with Him are the called and chosen and faithful." Rev 17:14 (NASB) 16 And on His robe and on His thigh He has a name written, "KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS." Rev 19:16 (NASB) The next several versus are titles belonging, in the ultimate sense, only to God. SAVIOR- 11 for today in the city of David there has been born for you a Savior, who is Christ the Lord. Luke 2:11 (NASB) 42 and they were saying to the woman, "It is no longer because of what you said that we believe, for we have heard for ourselves and know that this One is indeed the Savior of the world." John 4:42 (NASB) 14 We have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son to be the Savior of the world. 1 John 4:14 (NASB) 13 looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus, Titus 2:13 (NASB) 10 not pilfering, but showing all good faith so that they will adorn the doctrine of God our Savior in every respect. Titus 2:10 (NASB) 11 "I, even I, am the LORD (YHWH), And there is no savior besides, Me. Isaiah 43:11 (NASB) 21 "Declare and set forth your case; Indeed, let them consult together. Who has announced this from of old? Who has long since declared it? Is it not I, the LORD (YHWH)? And there is no other God besides, Me, A righteous God and a Savior; There is none except Me. 22 "Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth; For I am God, and there is no other. Isaiah 45:21-22 (NASB) 10 For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers. 1 Tim 4:10 (NASB) 9 And having been made perfect, He [Christ] became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation, Heb 5:9 (NASB) 2 "The LORD (YHWH) is my strength and song, And He has become my salvation; This is my God, and I will praise Him; My father's God, and I will extol Him. Ex 15:2 (NASB) 14 The LORD (YHWH) is my strength and song, And He has become my salvation. Psalms 118:14 (NASB) 21 I shall give thanks to You, for You have answered me, And You have become my salvation. Psalms 118:21 (NASB) SHEPERD- 11 "I (Jesus)am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep. John 10:11 (NASB) 20 Now the God of peace, who brought up from the dead the great Shepherd of the sheep through the blood of the eternal covenant, even Jesus our Lord, Heb 13:20 (NASB) 1 The LORD (YHWH) is my shepherd, I shall not want. Psalms 23:1 (NASB) 11 Like a shepherd He will tend His flock, In His arm He will gather the lambs And carry them in His bosom; He will gently lead the nursing ewes Isaiah 40:11 (NASB) ROCK- 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ. 1 Cor 10:4 (NASB) 8 'Do not tremble and do not be afraid; Have I not long since announced it to you and declared it? And you are My witnesses. Is there any God besides, Me, Or is there any other Rock? I know of none.' " Isaiah 44:8 (NASB) Tomorrow night I will present scriptures teaching that Jesus receives the honors due to God alone. Chris | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 420 Registered: 7-2003 |
Dd, I was born and raised in Adventism for the first 30 years of my life: 8 years in a one room SDA elementary school, 4 years at Sunnydale SDA Academy, 3 years at Union College, and 3 years at Andrews. I am a licensed Physical Therapist, but mainly do administrative work as the Director of Inpaitient Therapies at Madonna Rehabilitation Hospital in Lincoln, NE. My wife, two daughters, and I came out of Adventism a little over 3 years ago. I consider myself a baby Christian. I am now the Discipleship coordinator at CrossBridge Christian Church where I teach some classes, do some drama, and preach whenever the head pastor is away. If you would like to read my testimony it is in the most recent issue of PROCLAMATION! and is entitled "The Journey Home". Chris | ||
| Speakeasy Registered user Username: Speakeasy Post Number: 144 Registered: 9-2002 |
well after weeks of reading just this forum and the 9 years of studying this topic. I just don't understand it or how to defend it. I will just have to wait until judgement day to see if I will be excepted in Heaven or not. If G-d is going to reject me. Because I don't understand the topic of the Trinty or even see it. Then I guess I will not make it. If I need to know this topic. Then G-d will show it to me in his own time. I am tired of stressing over it. The only key that I see for salvation is that Jesus is the Son of G-d and you must confess that he is. And that He died for you and he rose from the grave and it was his shed blood that covers your sin record. This is what saves you. But all this other stuff is not salvational points that some try to say it is. It looks like to me that almost all people know very little about this subject and everybody so far in the 9 years I have studyed this topic should not try to teach people this subject. Because it always get's back to nobody really knows what this topic is. They can tell you what thay have been told to except because it is a doctrine we need to except. But they can not explain it. Because "We will never know until we see Jesus" Well if we will never know until we see Jesus then this subject has nothing to with salvation or worshiping the wrong Jesus and it has nothing to with Putting another god in front of Jesus. speakeasy | ||
| 33ad Registered user Username: 33ad Post Number: 33 Registered: 10-2004 |
Speakeasy, You said "The only key that I see for salvation is that Jesus is the Son of G-d and you must confess that he is. And that He died for you and he rose from the grave and it was his shed blood that covers your sin record. This is what saves you." In a way you are right. If you want to simplify things to that point, you won't be lost for accepting Jesus as your Savior. His Grace can cover a lot! But I would like to add that there are many things in this world that most of won't understand, yet we have faith in them because they work. I'm not a Bill Gates, and I would not be able to crack his data code, or even be a Linux Geek. But I have found out how to use the programs that run on windows, so I trust in windows (Well, most of the time;-))I would never meet the guy who designed the Boing 747, but I trust him enough to fly in them. I don't know much how oil is refined, but I trust the gas company so I can fill up the car, and the car goes. At this point in your life, just keep to Jesus. He won't forsake you. And on the Judgement day, He'll personally sit down with you and introduce you to His Father and the Spirit. By the way, it's the Spirit working within you that keeps you believing in Jesus. But don't stress yourself over the Godhead. It was kept a mystery to all those born before the birth of Christ, and it doesn't change the fact that the righteous in the preceeding centuries are saved by Jesus too. Just hold onto Jesus then. Keep it simple. He's done the work for you and salvation is a free gift. May you find the Blessing you seek. Loren | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 57 Registered: 7-2004 |
Speakeasy, I definitely agree with 33ad, and I'm glad you're choosing not to stress about it anymore! Since you have accepted Jesus, just rest in Jesus and trust Him to do all the saving work (which was already done "while we were yet sinners"). Like I've said before, since Jesus is the key, any other understanding of doctrines cannot be a salvational issue and God understands that everyone's brain works differently. Just keep your heart open to whatever God wants to reveal to you down the road. | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 995 Registered: 11-2002 |
This sort of reminds me of a service at the local SDA church I attended with my mom. The preachers topic was how can we know if we are going to be in Gods eternal kingdom. We heard the standard SDA line that we don't know so we'd best keep trying our best, etc, I'm sure you out there know the line. So while the preacher was talking I got out the pew Bible and found the text that Raven quotes above about knowing we are saved while we were yet sinners and if memory serves my correctly several other texts, too. I wrote them out for him on a piece of paper. I also put a note on that paper saying I know I am saved and I know exactaly when I was saved. It was in 33 A.D. The minister read my note and said to me what he always says to me when I share my sermon notes with him, "I see you need this explained further. Come by my office sometime during the week and I'll explain it to you personally." Of course, I've never gone. | ||
| Speakeasy Registered user Username: Speakeasy Post Number: 145 Registered: 9-2002 |
33ad why do you call yourself 33ad ? speakeasy | ||
| Speakeasy Registered user Username: Speakeasy Post Number: 146 Registered: 9-2002 |
It is sad that a few people on this forum say you must believe and except this topic. These people do not say it. But they do tie the excepting of the Trinity to your salvation. And that is what messes me up. Not Scripture but people's view's on this subject and all of the people say we will never know until the day we meet Jesus. But if we will never know until we meet Jesus then why do we teach this topic? speakeasy | ||
| Speakeasy Registered user Username: Speakeasy Post Number: 147 Registered: 9-2002 |
Tracey; When you pray for forgivness are you praying to the G-d that Jesus did on the cross when Jesus turned his spirit over to? Or are you praying to Jesus for your forgivness? If G-d can save you then we do not need Jesus as our Go-between with G-d. If all we need is Jesus then why do we need the G-d of Abraham ,Isacc and Jacob? speakeasy | ||
| 33ad Registered user Username: 33ad Post Number: 34 Registered: 10-2004 |
Hi Speakeasy, If you go to the 'Great Contoversy' thread you will see my testimony. In a nutshell, Pentecost was in 33AD, and that's when the Christian Church truly started. And with all these cults today, I'm a firm believer in getting back to our roots - real Apostolic style Christianity. Also, I worship now as a Russian Orthdox, and you will see I've put up a bit of information about Orthodox Christianity too. May Jesus give you a rich blessing Loren | ||
| 33ad Registered user Username: 33ad Post Number: 35 Registered: 10-2004 |
Hi Speakeasy, I'll answer that for you. Tracy can answer for herself too. Jesus blood was shed to save us and forgive us. Let's leave the Father out here for this point. Now Jesus sits on the throne in heaven and forgives us when we pray. But here's the real shocker, if you like. Jesus IS the G-d of Abraham ,Isacc and Jacob! He said as much when he said "Before Abraham was, I AM. Jesus always Was, Is and Forever Will Be. And while he was in the tomb, he was not "dead" either. His body was dead, but his Spirit was in Sheol, preaching to the "prisoners" or dead sinners (In their spirit form) from before the Flood. So He was still in touch with the universe, if you're concerned about that. Another thing,when Jesus said "My G-d, My G-d, why have you forsaken me, he was quoting from Psalm 22. Maybe this will mix you up too, but the death on the cross had been kept a secret from the Devil all the time so that he would not try to stop it. When you read the psalm it tells what was happening to Jesus, and this was a sort of code that Jesus used to tell the Devil, "I've beaten you"! Jesus knew he had overcome. Then He was ready to let His Spirit go wherever His Father wanted It to go. But as I've said previously, stop stressing about who to pray to. Jesus is all you need for now. And He won't hold it against you if you can't accept the Trinity aspect. Speakeasy, there are not only going to be Christians in heaven. There will be people from every tribe and nation, and those who never knew Him. You have the privelege to get to know Jesus. Just do that, and He will lead you to where He knows is best for you. Stop stressing. Loren | ||
| Speakeasy Registered user Username: Speakeasy Post Number: 148 Registered: 9-2002 |
Thanks 33ad. Why didn't Jesus Identify himself as Jesus in the Old Testament? If Jesus was G-d as you say then If he started out with Himself as stating he was Jesus in 4000bc then that would be an air tight statement that nobody could deny. If there is a verse that is in the Old Testament that says "I am Jesus the G-d of Abraham,Isacc and Jacob" or something like that please show me and my heart and soul will be at ease. Please if you have time show the verse in the Old Testament were you got this. I am excited to see what and were this is at. Also again why do you call yourself 33ad? speakeasy | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 19 Registered: 10-2004 |
Speakeasy, If you accept that Jesus is Messiah, then why don't you accept HIM saying that He is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob? Why do you need an Old Testament verse saying it? Jeremy | ||
| Speakeasy Registered user Username: Speakeasy Post Number: 149 Registered: 9-2002 |
Sorry I did not see your answer about your name 33ad. I thought your name had something to do with Jesus's age when he died or something. We know aproximatly the age of Jesus when he died and that is around 33 years old give or take. But I had a buddy that thought Jesus was born exactly when 1 bce and 1 ce joined and then Jesus Died 33 years later that would be 33ce. But I had to explain to him that Jesus was born anywere from 3 bce to 4 bce. About the time of when John was born. And that would put the death of Jesus around 27ce or so. Not 33ad. I just thought your name had something to do with trying to put Jesus's age and he died in 33ce or something. I don't know why and maybe someone could tell me why we still use BC and AD. When we know that these are incorrect when we can get pretty close within a year or so of when Jesus was born. And it was not at 1bc or 1 ab.And why do we use AD and BC ? How would we start a thread on this? speakeasy | ||
| Speakeasy Registered user Username: Speakeasy Post Number: 150 Registered: 9-2002 |
Jermey; I would like the verse from the Old testament becuase 33 ad says that "Jesus is the G-d of Abraham ,Isacc and Jacob." He may have verses that say this from the Old Testament. Let's see what 33 ad has to say. He may have something on this. And when you say "If you say you except Jesus as the Messiah" I don't say "IF" Jesus is the Messiah. I have always said that Jesus "IS" the Messiah and I have excepted him years ago. You know I may sound stuborn about all of this. But I am starting to get like all of you on the forum. I am just going to have to except the teaching of the Trinity. Because it maybe true and if it is true then that's great. I just want to know how to defend it in my mind so if someone askes me. I don't sound wierd and try to explain something that nobody really knows how to really nail it down. I think Chris is pretty close as it comes. speakeasy | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 526 Registered: 7-2003 |
But look at the LONG time Chris has spent explaining and isn't done yet, none of us could explain it in a snippit. We've tried scriptures, word pictures, and poor earthly examples. It hasn't seemed to help. If Chris's very thorough analysis helps, WONDERFUL. But I wouldn't begin to underestimate the time he's putting into his study. I'm sure it's hours. But at some point you have to come to grips with whether you accept the authority of the New Testament as well as Jesus own words as relayed in the gospels. If he is sinless enough to be savior, he doesn't lie. And if he doesn't lie, then his own words in the gospels ought to be as convincing as you seem to accept an OT passage. It seems almost not to be an issue of black and white passages, but passages in the OT that you are seeking. Have you considered your position on the authority of scripture, including the gospels and the NT? If you don't believe the gospels and the NT without explicit words in the OT, Chris can list it out for a long time, but you're not going to find the words you want. Just something to ponder, my friend. Blessings to you in the name of Jesus. |
