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Helovesme2
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Username: Helovesme2

Post Number: 25
Registered: 8-2004
Posted on Monday, October 11, 2004 - 4:05 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I read this elsewhere, and thought of us here. Anyone have any comments or research on this topic? I asked the author if I could post it here and she gave me permission. It is a research project not a settled conclusive thing at this point.

helovesme2

By Tessa Beem:

To all Adventists, ex and otherwise,
The most interesting research I have been conducting has left me perfectly stuck and I need some help for EVERYONE who could provide me information.

I was given some interesting information about the Hebrew Sabbaths. At first I did not believe it but after much research I have done, I am left wondering if it isn't true.

Okay, here it is:
SDA's have always assumed that there has been a never-ending weekly cycle of 7 days since creation week.

I have checked into both Adventist and Jewish claims and there is very, very little evidence to support this claim. As a matter of fact, several books I have read written by Jewish scholars have claimed quite the opposite. Some claim that it has only been since the Babylonian exile can a reoccuring 7 week cycle be found among SOME Jewish sects. Others say it was only after the Romans conquering of Jerusalem can a 7 day recycling sabbath be found. Some Rabbis claim it happened in 100 BC, others say the sabbath cycle started with Rabbi Hillel II in the 4th century A.D. NO Jewish scholar claims that there was a 7 day cycle among ALL Jews, nor is there any evidence to suggest that it happened since creation.

I looked into Adventist books and I could find only two primary sources.
1. One was a historical reference that said the 7 week cycle has not been interrupted since the "CHRISTIAN ERA".
2. The second was two Talmud references that say the Destruction of Jerusalem (Nebuchadrezzar's) occured on the 9th day of the month, the day after the sabbath and that the destruction of Jerusalem (70 AD) occured at the same day--the ninth of the month one day after the sabbath. Both were in the same month. (They claim if you add a seven day cycle end to end this proves that the Sabbath MUST have been never ending because of the perfect way this matches up to these dates.)

This is very flimsy evidence.
Actually, what I have been researching and more and more evidence seems to suggest this to be the case is that the Hebrews had a fixed calendar set by the moon.
The first day of each month was called the "New Moon" festival and there was an assembly, but it wasn't considered a sabbath (holy) even though they did not work. It was more of a holiday.
THEN the weekly cycle started. Each month was the same:
Day 1. New Moon festival
Day 2. Start of workweek
Day 3.-7 work week "six days shall you labor and do all your work"
Day 8 Lunar quarter-First Sabbath of Lunar Cycle
Day 9-14 six day workweek
Day 15 Second Sabbath of lunar cycle(FULL MOON)
Day 16-21 six day workweek
Day 22 Third cycle of lunar Sabbath (3/4 moon)
Day 23-28 six day workweek
Day 29 Fourth Sabbath (moon dark)
(Day 30 every other month where moon is dark is extra day but not considered in weekly cycle.)

There seems to be much circumstantial evidence both biblically and historically to prove this model. I did not come up with it myself--just did research on it.
This would put a 7 day continuous cycle completely out of kilter (sp?) with an ancient Hebrew calendar.

I have discussed this with two Jewish rabbis who disagree, but when I ask them to prove it wrong they could come up with no evidence to prove a continuous 7 day cycle.
Can anyone come up with something to refute this?
Tesa

Jerry
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Username: Jerry

Post Number: 426
Registered: 6-2002
Posted on Monday, October 11, 2004 - 6:09 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I cannot come up with any better evidence than you have suggested.

However, I will say this: it seems very unlikely that, even if the "continuous 7 day cycle" existed during the exodus with Moses, the Bible hints at there being the introduction of a new structure for time in Exodus and Ezekiel starting with the first declared holy day:

Exodus 12:
[1] And the LORD spake unto Moses and Aaron in the land of Egypt, saying,
[2] This month shall be unto you the beginning of months: it shall be the first month of the year to you.

Ezekiel 20:
[10] Wherefore I caused them to go forth out of the land of Egypt, and brought them into the wilderness.
[11] And I gave them my statutes, and shewed them my judgments, which if a man do, he shall even live in them.
[12] Moreover also I gave them my sabbaths, to be a sign between me and them, that they might know that I am the LORD that sanctify them.

I think that is strong circumstantial evidence that some other mode of time keeping existed before the exodus from Egypt.

I would imagine that more research into Egyptian culture of the time would quickly reveal what that was. I doubt that it was a seven day cycle.
Susan_2
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Username: Susan_2

Post Number: 1005
Registered: 11-2002
Posted on Monday, October 11, 2004 - 6:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

What I want to inject into this conversation is a bit off from your origional topic but still fits in. I recently read an article (National Geographic?) in a magazine about a tribe of people way up in the back mountains of China who observe a 10 day weekly cycle. The SDA's made the 7th day from sunse to sunset holy time. If the SDA missionaries were to get into this tribe I just can immagine it would be very difficult convincing those people to so radically cange their entire routine, schedule, way of life. I have been praying that some Christians can get to those people and share with them the peace they can have in their hearts having Jesus as their Savior every day. They can keep their 10 day weekly cycle.
Spokenfor
Registered user
Username: Spokenfor

Post Number: 44
Registered: 12-2003
Posted on Tuesday, October 12, 2004 - 6:21 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Helovesme2,
I find this fascinating! Could you tell me the original source you found it at? I'm wondering if there are any links there that might give more in depth info. Thanks so much,
Spokenfor
Melissa
Registered user
Username: Melissa

Post Number: 530
Registered: 7-2003
Posted on Tuesday, October 12, 2004 - 7:33 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I have quoted different OT passages to B about God giving Israel the Sabbath at Sinai, and his response is that he had to remind them because they lost it in their years of slavery... I only say that because the blind eye will have an excuse no matter what the evidence. Canright also did a study in his book about Sunday observance and contacted some Roman history scholars to see what the history of the week was over there at the time of constantine. They didn't have evidence of a 7-day week, but had a market day every 8 days, and their god's were worshipped by month or year, not days of the week as some SDA teaching has said (worshipping the Sun on Sunday, etc.) I think there seems to be ample evidence against SDA teaching about the Sabbath through historical documents, but they're not reading it and I would suspect most would not care and would run headlong into their other doctrines to "prove" they are correct.

Sorry for the skepticism. For the open mind interested in the truth, I bet someone could learn a thing or two...but for the hardcore SDA, it's just a nuisance they will forget as soon as the conversation (or argument) ends.
Helovesme2
Registered user
Username: Helovesme2

Post Number: 28
Registered: 8-2004
Posted on Tuesday, October 12, 2004 - 10:16 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Spokenfor,

The post from Tessa Beem is from a discussion going on at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sda-survey/.

I'd be interested in further information too!

Helovesme2
Pheeki
Registered user
Username: Pheeki

Post Number: 401
Registered: 1-2003
Posted on Tuesday, October 12, 2004 - 10:17 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

You will find no introduction of a 7-day weekly cycle in Genesis. What you will find is God created the Earth in 7 days and rested. There is no account of the cycle starting over in fact I believe the 7th day was perpetual and God didn't go back to work until sin entered the picture. If Sabbath was initiated at creation God would have commanded it in Genesis...but since we are later told it was a shadow of Christ and the rest we would find in Him, there was no reason to command it in Eden because sin had not yet entered the picture.

It was commanded at Sinai because it was part of the tutor to bring the people to Christ.
Colleentinker
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Username: Colleentinker

Post Number: 793
Registered: 12-2003
Posted on Tuesday, October 12, 2004 - 10:57 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Fascinating! This idea totally makes sense and certainly meshes with the fact that the first Sabbath command didn't come until Exodus 16, just weeks before God gave the law at Sinai.

Related to Susan's post above concerning other types of "weeks", a couple of years ago a Wycliffe Bible translator emailed us a few times. He had found our website and contacted us for further info because of an SDA friend he had. He told us that he was in (some remote) island in (ummm--I can't remember for sure--New Guinea?) which used a dialect never before translated into Scripture. He explained that he was developing a Bible translation for these very remote villagers, and that part of his translating required him to tell the Bible stories in ways that made sense to them.

Here's the amazing thing: this group of people had no number system. He said they functioned with forms of number 1 and number 2, but they had no set of numbers that they could count. Similarly, they had no week. He said if the Sabbath were necessary as a component of that culture's salvation, they would first have to learn to count before they could understand the "gospel". He was, therefore, translating the Bible without any emphasis on numbering days in any context.

I found that quite fascinating--and significant.

Colleen
Susan_2
Registered user
Username: Susan_2

Post Number: 1006
Registered: 11-2002
Posted on Tuesday, October 12, 2004 - 1:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

When my kids and me were living out in the jungle we met numerous jungle people who never had any idea of the day of the week or often times even what month it was because every day all year long the weather and living conditions are the same--80-90 degrees farinheight and rain around four to six tmes per day around 10-20 minutes per downpoor. Once we met a lady who said she'd been living back in the jungle for a long time and she had no idea of the year. I said, "Do you want me to tell you what year it is?" She said, "No" so I didn't. These people live sunup to sundown and on Full Moon they gather at the beach and have a big Full Moon party. This was last year. We met people who had not even heard of the 9-11-01 terrorist attcks or even knew our country is at war. These people live for the day, getting that days food and needs met. And, for the most part this is how me and my kids lived, too, although we did try to remember when it was Sunday so we could go to the Hare Krishna gathering. But, living in a tent way out in the jungle just more-or-less leads one to loose track of things like what day it is, etc. BTW, we are going to go back to that sort of life in a few years. I've always had the internal "feeling" that I was ment to be in the hunter-gatherer age and not in this age of all this modern technology. I aclaimate quite well to a primtive lifestyle.
Spokenfor
Registered user
Username: Spokenfor

Post Number: 45
Registered: 12-2003
Posted on Tuesday, October 12, 2004 - 4:10 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thank you for the link helovesme2!
Spokenfor
Flyinglady
Registered user
Username: Flyinglady

Post Number: 638
Registered: 3-2004
Posted on Tuesday, October 12, 2004 - 5:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thank you, all of you, for furthering my education. I find this day/week subject fascinating. And you are correct, God did not reiterate the number of days after Creation. We hear nothing about the 7th day until Sinai.
Thanks so much.
Diana
Cindy
Registered user
Username: Cindy

Post Number: 697
Registered: 7-2000
Posted on Thursday, October 14, 2004 - 6:22 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Pheeki, Thanks for your words above concerning the 7th day in Eden (the seventh-day rest being "perpetual"...and not until much later when sin had entered the picture was there even a command to "keep it holy"!)

Being a "shadow" of the rest we have in Christ, "there was no reason to command it in Eden because sin had not entered the picture".

What simplicity and clarity there is for me in living in Gods' Finished Work and True Rest, Christ.

grace always,
cindy

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