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Tealeaves
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Username: Tealeaves

Post Number: 114
Registered: 5-2004
Posted on Monday, August 09, 2004 - 10:34 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Raven and Busy,
I haven't gone to any churches in the past few years that really stress the "10% tithe" as a command. I do know that some still use it as a guideline because they think it is a reasonable number, but they don't stressit as necessary for the CHristian life.
We have simply committed ALL our money to God. I remind myself that I am writing checks out of HIS checkbook. And while we will give a set amount per month to the church we end up at (currently looking and praying), we simply don't hesitate to give any amount He leads us, to any situation He puts before us. (And yes, that has been over 10%.)
One month, it may be less, another month it may be more. (We have that flexibility because my husband has his own business, and isn't on a fixed income.)
I don't think that our giving has anything to do with how much money our church requires of us, but everything to do with what God leads us to give. I ask God, not the local church board.

Colleentinker
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Username: Colleentinker

Post Number: 534
Registered: 12-2003
Posted on Monday, August 09, 2004 - 11:05 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Busymom, our church likewise does not teach a 10% tithe, although I have occasionally heard the term. In general, though, there are no offering calls.

You and Raven make good points. We were very on guard over certain references and phrases we heard at our church when we first began to attend. We have become much less sensitive to those things, however, because over the months and now years, the Bible teaching is so faithful, in-depth, and new covenant based. If you find that the Bible teaching leads you to Jesus and not works, to a heart response and true understanding of the Scripture and not to pet doctrines, to a commitment to live for Jesus by the power of the Holy Spirit and not to improving your behavior, you may find that references to things like the 10 Commandments and tithing occasionally may not be too big a price to pay. The fact is that you'll always be able to find something that rubs you wrong. I really do believe that former Adventists are far more sensitive (and rightly so!) to issues of Old vs. New Covenant than are most Christians because of the nature of the Bible study we've had to do in order to see the truth.

If you find yourself fed spiritually and growing in Christ but bothered by certain specific teachings or references, I do believe it's appropriate to visit your pastor and explain. You might even take him something to read: Sabbath in Christ by Dale Ratzlaff or Discovering the New Covenant by Greg Taylor, for example--even Cultic Doctrine of SDAs by Ratzlaff.

Our pastor, to his credit, has informed himself of Adventist sticking points and references, and he has actually changed some of his ways of seeing or speaking about certain issues, such as the commandments, over the years. (Of course, he has a growing church on the back doorstep of Loma Linda, and many SDAs visit.) I believe that most pastors, however, if they are truly growing in Christ and active in Bible study, will be open to what you have to say.

I don't know whether or not anyone here remembers that last summer Richard and I took our sons to Hume Lake for a week and camped. (Hume Lake has a huge Christian conference center, and it's located near King's Canyon in California, near Sequoia National Park.) We attended the adult evening meetings that week, and on the first night the pastor from the Fullerton Evangelical Free Church was there, and he literally preached on keeping the Sabbath--on Sunday, of course. He even used all the old proof texts we knew including Exodus 20:8-11. We were in mild shock and barely contained ourselves throughout that meeting.

Richard said, "We have to talk to him." We made an appt. to see him the follwing Wednesday at dinner, and we spent about an hour and a half explaining our reaction to the sermon, our understanding of Sabbath, our senseitivity to his point that people are driven and need to take time to meditate and be with family, and our experience with Sabbath rest in Christ. He was very gracious, I have to say--I'm sure we were fairly passionate although we were calm.

He acknowledged that what we said was helpful, and he knew he frequently had SDAs visit his church. He would be more aware of how he talked about the subject from then on. We promised to send him Sabbath in Christ and Cultic Doctrine.

Richard and I left with a collection of reactions: we knew it had been a God-appointed meeting. We sensed he had a problem really abandoning the the idea that a day should be observed. We believed he was sincere and really was concerned about teaching the subject accurately and with sensitivity to Adventist (and legalistic) mindsets.

About two months after our meeting with him, I finally mailed the books with a note to him and promptly forgot about it. A week later we got a gracious thank you back in which he said something that totally shocked both of us; he said he had forgotten we were going to send the books, but he had not forgotten his conversation with us and had, in fact, thought about it many times.

Periodically I pray for him and for his ministry. You never know how God might want to use you to help your pastor understand the radical freedom you have found by having to reject the old covenant and embrace the new with no confusion between them. Ask God to guide you and to open doors of opportunity according to His timing and will.

With prayers for all of us as we learn to worship with the true body of Christ,

Colleen
Melissa
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Username: Melissa

Post Number: 412
Registered: 7-2003
Posted on Monday, August 09, 2004 - 11:27 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Colleen, that is a very encouraging story. I do remember your meeting and admired your courage to confront the issue. I stepped out off a cliff myself with one of the very learned elders in my church who is doing a series on the 10 Cs. I expressed to him my concerns based upon my understanding the old covenant law was fulfilled in Christ and explained the whole SDA connection. He listened, though I did not think I had much influence into his mindset. I felt rather foolish after the whole conversation. I didn't sit through his class because I was afraid I would argue too much or just churn with anxiety over it, but every time I see him I wonder how his class is going. It's almost over now and I think the attendance has actually been quite small. He is a very bright and knowledgeable teacher, and I hated to challenge him, but at the same time just shared my heart with him based upon my experiences. Like you, I hope there were seeds planted that will be beneficial some day...
Lydell
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Username: Lydell

Post Number: 627
Registered: 7-2000
Posted on Monday, August 16, 2004 - 7:45 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Busymom, we attend a church that encourages people to give tithe. There are many many Christians who still see tithe as being something applicable to Christians. With me it isn't an issue. I see 10% as the least of what belongs to God.

I hope noone bases their acceptance or rejection of a church body just on the basis of that one point. It isn't a salvational issue, and non-salvational issues should never be something we use to judge church bodies.
Busymom
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Username: Busymom

Post Number: 25
Registered: 4-2004
Posted on Tuesday, August 17, 2004 - 5:16 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Lydell, I am working on tithing not being an issue for me. To my knowledge there are no churches in the area who do not teach tithing. I agree that at least 10% belongs to God, but when people say we have to because we are still under the moral law rather than the ceremonial law I don't agree. Under the New Covenant we should all be so blessed and in awe of what God has done and is doing for us, that we are not stingy with our resources. I also grew up hearing stories of the farmers crops who were destroyed because they weren't tithing. No one in my current church has tried to make anyone fearful, but fear has been one of my motives in the past for giving.

I looked up in the concordance blessings and curses and was relieved to see that there are many more blessings than curses. I read Ephesians 1 this am where it says we have received every spiritual blessing through Christ. It is only since leaving Adventism that spiritual blessings have become real to me. I am so thankful for the Holy Spirit and that I don't have to be fearful that I can't follow all the rules. We are saved by grace! God is awesome.
Busymom
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Username: Busymom

Post Number: 26
Registered: 4-2004
Posted on Tuesday, August 17, 2004 - 6:01 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Just wanted to share what I am learning about blessings. When we surrender to the love of God in Christ Jesus, the old is gone, the new has come. Our identity is found in Jesus. Every act of God is eternal including the Father's blessing of Jesus. When Jesus was blessed after his baptism, that same blessing applys to us. "You are my daughter, whom I love, with you I am well pleased." In Isaiah 43:1 it says"Fear not, for I have redeemed you; I have summoned you by name, you are mine." God "knit me together in my mother's womb"psalm 139:13 The fact that God knows my name and loves me inspite of knowing the ugly parts of me is a blessing. God wants to affirm our identity and destiny. We all need blessings to succeed in life.

I realize most of you probably learned the above years ago, but I wanted to share what I am learning. Praying God's blessings for all of you!
Flyinglady
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Username: Flyinglady

Post Number: 473
Registered: 3-2004
Posted on Tuesday, August 17, 2004 - 8:06 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Busymom,
I just learned all that since the first of this year when I decided not to rejoin the SDA church, so it is still new and amazing to me also. God loves and accepts me, warts and all.
Diana
Colleentinker
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Username: Colleentinker

Post Number: 581
Registered: 12-2003
Posted on Tuesday, August 17, 2004 - 12:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Busymom, what a great insight! I continue to find it amazing how God teaches us individually in ways that meet our needs and reassure us in the places where we need His affirmation.

The identity issue has been huge for me. Praise God for giving us an identity that our circumstances can never change!

Colleen
Tealeaves
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Username: Tealeaves

Post Number: 127
Registered: 5-2004
Posted on Tuesday, August 17, 2004 - 2:47 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The identity issue is huge. I met a couple the other day that are instrumental in their SDA church. He is on the board and a deacon. their families are all SDA, and all their friends. But they said they really aren't SDA anymore, but don't know how to "get out." They don't want to disappoint their church and family or lose their friends, so the "play SDA."
THey say maybe when they move (this next year or so) they will think about "coming out of the closet" and attending a non-SDA church.
I feel so bad for them! I pray that they will listen to Go'ds leading in the matter.
Ric_b
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Username: Ric_b

Post Number: 19
Registered: 7-2004
Posted on Tuesday, August 17, 2004 - 4:48 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Tanya,
The couple you mention sound so much like I was, it is scary. I "played" SDA for many years while my wife remained committed to the SDA church. Even after she studied her way out as well, it took a full year for us to make the leap.
Tealeaves
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Username: Tealeaves

Post Number: 129
Registered: 5-2004
Posted on Tuesday, August 17, 2004 - 9:39 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

With this couple, both of them want out of the SDA scene. I am glad to hear that they feel the same, since it is hard enough to leave the SDA community without being spiritually separated from your spouse. I will definitely be praying for them this Saturday during the scheduled prayer chain time.
Flyinglady
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Username: Flyinglady

Post Number: 481
Registered: 3-2004
Posted on Tuesday, August 17, 2004 - 9:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Tealeaves,
They are in my prayer book to be remembered, especially at our prayer chain time on Saturday.
God is awesome.
Diana
Dd
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Username: Dd

Post Number: 78
Registered: 7-2004
Posted on Wednesday, August 18, 2004 - 7:37 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Tanya,

Do your friends know about FAF? This forum (and all of you) have been such a wonderful blessing to me in just a few short months. I have not considered myself SDA for several years but just recently I have had the courage to say out loud, to different people, my convictions of Jesus, grace, SDA, etc... I give all the credit to Jesus and His Holy Spirit. He has used FAF to give me the peace and comfort I needed.
Tealeaves
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Username: Tealeaves

Post Number: 132
Registered: 5-2004
Posted on Wednesday, August 18, 2004 - 3:17 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I didn't think to tell them about this forum. Perhaps I should do so. thanks for the suggestion.

-tanya-
Ric_b
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Username: Ric_b

Post Number: 21
Registered: 7-2004
Posted on Wednesday, August 18, 2004 - 6:07 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dd,
Great point. Lurking, and later posting, really helped us with the courage to make the "big step" and request our membership be dropped. You feel very alone in the decision in your local community. But here in the virutal you begin to really understand that you are not alone. And that the questions, concerns and feelings you are having are shared by many others.
Raven
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Username: Raven

Post Number: 58
Registered: 7-2004
Posted on Sunday, October 10, 2004 - 4:20 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Today was a low day for us in our search for a new church home. We thought we had found a very promising non-denominational church. One of the key things that helped me realize I could leave the SDA church was seeing that the law was not divided between moral and ceremonial, but that it was really all one law. In today's sermon, the pastor carefully explained how the law is divided into moral and ceremonial, and that the ceremonial law was nailed to the cross. The moral law which is the 10 commandments, is still enforce and is a transcription of God's character and will never pass away. That sounded like we were in an SDA church! It's exactly what I've been saying ever since we left the SDA church, that most all churches are so deluded about legalism issues it is no wonder people get suckered into SDAism. If the all 10 commandments are still fully in effect, at least the SDA curch is acknowledging that including the 4th. I just wish the other churches could wake up to the facts! Sometimes it looks like it's supposed to be so easy because the SDA's are wrong but everyone else is so much more "right"--but the reality seems it's very difficult because most churches are also very confused! Sorry I'm ranting, but I'm frustrated!
Chris
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Username: Chris

Post Number: 426
Registered: 7-2003
Posted on Sunday, October 10, 2004 - 4:34 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Raven, I'm sorry to hear about your frustration. I have had similar experiences (including recently sitting through a summer sermon series on the 10 C's) and have experienced similar frustration. I can really identify.

You make excellent points in your post. At least SDAs are relatively (though not completely) consistent in taking this idea of a divided law to it's conclusion. To me the least defensible position in the whole spectrum of thought is the idea that the 10 C's are still in full force for Christians and are the standard Christians are to live by, but the 4th has been transferred to another day. Thankfully, not all Christian believe this, but the ones who do are really being setup for legalism or at best continual inconsitency in their theology.

Chris
Susan_2
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Username: Susan_2

Post Number: 1001
Registered: 11-2002
Posted on Sunday, October 10, 2004 - 4:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Have you considered The United Church of Christ? Do not confuse this denoination with The Church of Christ. They are two completely seperate denminations and are very different one from another. How about the Presperterian or the Lutheran? You can go to the ELCA (Evengelical Lutheran) website and read their position on just about any subject or topic you can think of. I immagie this would hold to most all denominations.
33ad
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Username: 33ad

Post Number: 38
Registered: 10-2004
Posted on Monday, October 11, 2004 - 1:29 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi All,
I know all about 'playing Adventist' for the sake of family and friends, and the fear that one won't find a suitable church family again. It took two years for me after finally leaving the SDA fellowship, to find a new church home.
I'm glad Susan that you have posted a few churches to try. They are very good and I have good friends in those churches. I would also like to add that we should not restrict our search to 'Protestant' churches only. They often come with a lot of RC baggage that is thinly disguised. May I suggest a look at Orthodoxy too, which has been around since before Roman Catholicism was. Here is a link that will answer a lot of quetions about Orthodoxy in a non derogotory way:
http://www.oca.org/pages/orth_chri/Q-and-A_OLD/Meeting-the-Orthodox.html#1
God Bless
Loren
Ric_b
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Username: Ric_b

Post Number: 54
Registered: 7-2004
Posted on Monday, October 11, 2004 - 6:15 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Raven and I were so frustrated at the sermon she mentioned. And left just shaking our heads wondering "why can't people get it?" I decided to send the pastor an email about his teaching that morning. I am finding myself becoming more and more "vocal" about beliefs that are important to me. I have printed the main part of the email below. I am wondering if I will see any response from him.

In our journey of study that ultimately lead to leaving the Seventh-day
Adventist church one of the key elements that we needed to understand
was the role of "Law" in the New Testament. As SDAs we had always been
taught just as you spoke today. That there were two laws, one moral (i.
e. the Ten Commandments) and one ceremonial (feasts, sacrifices, and
such). And that Col 2:14 spoke of nailing the ceremonial to the cross
due to Christ's fulfillment of the shadow seen in the sacrificial
system and feasts. However, a careful look at Col 2:13-14 makes it
clear that it could not be the ceremonial law being spoken of here.

Col 2:13-14 When you were dead in your transgressions and the
uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him,
having forgiven us all our transgressions, having canceled out the
certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile
to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the
cross.

One's transgressions could never relate to the ceremonial aspects of
the law. Our debt that was cancelled is based on our sinfulness. Is
sinfulness established by the ceremonial statements in the law? Hardly,
only the moral commandments in the law could establish our sinfulness.
Therefore these verses can not be speaking of nailing the "ceremonial
law" to the cross.

What is the Scriptural basis you use for splitting the law into moral
and ceremonial? I have never been able to find one. What Law did Paul
suggest he had died to in Gal 2? Again using "ceremonial" here doesn't
allow the link to "sinnners" and is realy weak if trying to talk about
'justified by works of the Law".

Gal 2:16-19 nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the
works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have
believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in
Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law
no flesh will be justified. "But if, while seeking to be justified in
Christ, we ourselves have also been found sinners, is Christ then a
minister of sin? May it never be! "For if I rebuild what I have once
destroyed, I prove myself to be a transgressor. "For through the Law I
died to the Law, so that I might live to God.

And while I could probably continue on this topic for pages, I will end
with some questions from Galations 3.

Gal 3:17 What I am saying is this: the Law, which came four hundred and
thirty years later, does not invalidate a covenant previously ratified
by God, so as to nullify the promise.

Does this tell us the Law is eternal, or specific in time? Clearly
Abraham understood conducting sacrifices, so it seems odd to suggest
that the Law referred to here is jsut ceremonial.

18 For if the inheritance is based on law, it is no longer based on a
promise; but God has granted it to Abraham by means of a promise.
19 Why the Law then? It was added because of transgressions, having
been ordained through angels by the agency of a mediator, until the
seed would come to whom the promise had been made.
20 Now a mediator is not for one party only; whereas God is only one.
21 Is the Law then contrary to the promises of God? May it never be!
For if a law had been given which was able to impart life, then
righteousness would indeed have been based on law.

When we speak about righteousness coming from keeping the law, we
generally take that to mean moral righteousness rather than something
ceremonial. But arguing for a split law, in which only part has been
done away with, would require that this is the ceremonial law.

22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the
promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
23 But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law,
being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed.
24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so
that we may be justified by faith.

In what way is the law a tutor leading us to Christ? Is it because the
Law shows us our sinfulness (think Romans)? In which case, this can't
be just ceremonial.

25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

So what has happened to the Law now that we ar no longer under a tutor?


A church's teaching about the Law is one of the important criteria that
my wife and I have placed on selecting our next church home.

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