| Author | Message | ||
| Susan_2 (Susan_2) |
First of all I want to state that I honestly cannot figure out how come this is such an important topic to SDA's. But, it is so since I have very close loved ones who this subject is important to, then I'd like a discussion on it. I just came from my moms house and since my dad just recently passed away the assurance that he is sleeping in his urn in her upstairs bedroom is important to her and she frequently brings up the topic of the state of the dead to me. She was telling me that Christians who believe the righteous dead are in spirit with Jesus in heaven are spritualists and by believing that they are in heaven with Christ then that acknowledgement by itself sets themselves up to becomes pawns of satan as mediums. She also told me the term New Age referrs to Christians who believe the dead in Christ are actually in spirit in heaven with Christ. That the Christians who believe this way are New Agers and are being led by satan to believe this terrible untruth. And, that everyone who believes this way would then have no problem with consulting the dead because they then would act as a medium. I told her she totally misunderstood all of that stuff. Then she told me God gave me a good mind to think for myself and if I want to think and believe error than I have that freedom. BTW, she was sitting on her couch reading VOP and FFT books. I know what I just wrote sounds all mumble-jumble. However, that is how it was explained to me my my mom. Ever sice she learned that I ave been attending th Lutheran, well, you can guess the rest of the story about her subtly trying to convert me. | ||
| Pheeki (Pheeki) |
The reason it is important to SDA is because of what your relative said above...we have been warned all of our lives that thinking the dead are not asleep leads to people using psychics to contact them, and then they are inviting Satan in to deceive them and tell them all kinds of falsehood, which they will believe b/c it is a dear relative speaking to them. There is a lot of fear related to this subject because if we dare believe that they are with Christ, we are in danger of alligning with Satan. Warped I know but I still have serious questions about the state of the dead. I think it is entirely possible that the SDA are totally wrong about it because once Christ conquered death everything changed. He took the first fruits to heaven, somewhere it says in the bible that men of old were seen walking in Jerusalem (can't remember where it says this but I know I have read it) so I do believe that now we can be with Jesus in heaven when we die. I can't understand why it says that the dead in Christ will rise first unless he means we won't get our bodies renewed until then... I trust God to do with me as he wishes. | ||
| Susan_2 (Susan_2) |
My dads ashes are in the upstairs bedroom in my moms house. Somehow she gets comfort knowing that is all there is left of him. Yet, she doesn't want to part with the ashes o the man she so deeply loved for nearly 56 years. | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
Pheeki, the text regarding the holy men walking in Jerusalem is Matthew 27:51-53. You're right; the argument against our souls going to Jesus is the "spiritualism" argument. The real reason, I've become convinced, that SDAs are so concerned with soul sleep is that if they believed we had spirits that were separate from our minds, it would undercut their legalism and perfectionistic doctrines. If they believed we had spirits, then having a living spirit as opposed to a dead spirit (pre-born again) would mean that sin is not just a genetic tendency. The real problem is that if sin is spiritual, meaning we are spiritually separated from God and not able to be one with him without the Holy Spirit making us born again, then Jesus had to have been born different from us. His sinlessness would have been a result of the Holy Spirit in him from conception instead of being the result of being good and keeping the law perfectly. As long as Adventists can say Jesus kept the law perfectly and was therefore sinless, they can also say we can keep the law perfectly and be sinless. They argue that the Holy Spirit helps us keep the law so we can be sinless. They give absolutely no credence to the idea that our salvation results in our literal spirits being connected to God, and that the fact that we are born with disconnected spirits is the reason we are all lost before we accept him. If they believed humans had spirits, they would have to rethink their entire theology of sin and perfection and salvation. Further, if Adventist believed that humans had spirits that can become alive through the Holy Spirit and eternally connected to him, they would have no way to maintain the investigative juudgment. If Jesus is going through the names and deciding who's saved and who's lost, we can't have any saved souls in heaven. I've come to believe that the Adventist teaching of body plus breath (spirit) = living soul is a foundational heresy that underlies the whole Adventist deception. If we are just like animalsóbodies without spirits other than breathóthen all the NT teaching about spiritual things being spiritually discerned would make no sense. We would have to explain "spiritual" in terms of "mental". In fact, I saw an article in the Adventist Review a couple of years ago making a case for Adventist education at the college level as the means of training our young people's minds so they can understand and grapple with spiritual things. That idea completely contradicts Paul's teaching in 1 Corinthians 1 and 2. Praise God for bringing our spirits to life through His Spirit! Colleen | ||
| Dennis (Dennis) |
The Christian classic on this topic, "DEATH AND THE AFTERLIFE," by Dr. Robert A. Morey is a must-read type of book that details the history of soul-sleep and conditionalism. The late Dr. Walter Martin said of this book, "The most comprehensive biblical study of the subject in the last half century!" Interestingly, Dr. Morey goes face to face with Dr. LeRoy Froom, the Adventist apologist for conditionalism, in this excellent and thorough biblical study. This book should be required reading for all Adventists. It is published by Bethany House Publishers, Minneapolis, MN. (Copyright 1984) The cost is around $15.00 for the soft cover edition. Simply call or visit your favorite bookstore for obtaining a copy. It will serve as a handy reference work in your Christian library. Sylvia and I heartily recommend this outstanding book. The entire first chapter is devoted to the hermenetics of death. It is heavily researched, yet easy to read and understand. Dennis J. Fischer | ||
| Dennis (Dennis) |
Correction: Due to my typing error above, the correct phrase is "HERMENEUTICS of death." | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
Thanks for the recommendation, Dennis. BTW, if any of you haven't yet read Dennis's story on our Stories page on this website, you should. It's excellent! Another amazing "story" Richard just put up is by Tessa and Arthur Beem. You've got to read it. In her letter requesting that their names be removed from membership, which she includes, she tells of some of her research on Adventists and abortion when she was an appointed committee member in the late 80s-early 90's. I think it contains really significant quotes and facts. Colleen | ||
| Susan_2 (Susan_2) |
Where can I get the Review article that the guy says he's not againt abortion because of over population? Really, are the SDA leardeship that cold, that crass and that uncaring for their fellow humanity? Do the SDA hospitals REALLY do abortions on demand? Do they still? How about the ones that are going into partership with the Catholic hospitals? I know what I'm going to write in the next sentence is going to sound far-out but it is truly something I believe and it is this- I believe the SDA as a denomination refuses to take an official stand against abortion because the Catholic church is against abortion. The SDA church would not exit without it's teaching that the Catholic church is the 666 beast. Therefore, the SDA logic is that anything the Catholic church teaches is wrong so the SDA church will take the opposite position. Thin about it. Te entire IJ doctrine i because of the impending universal Sunday laws. The universal Sunday laws will come about because of the Catholic church. Therefore, the entire foundation of the SDA denomination is based on being anti-Catholic church. It never did make sense to me that a church that calls itself Christian can be based on being anti anther denomination. It always did make sense to me that a church that calls itself Christian would be based on the life and teachings and saving power of Jesus. | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
Susan, I don't think (I may have forgotten, but I think not...) that the quote was in the Review. Tesa Beem said, I believe, that Neil Wilson was quoted in a local newspaper at the time. I think the Adventists have a veiled but distinctly pro-choice stance on abortion for more self-serving reasons than mere anti-Catholic sentiments. (In reality, at the top, I don't think the leaders' sentiments are that anti-Catholic. They can't be if they collaborate in business deals!) Adventism is, in many areas, extremely liberal. While many of us grew up in tightly controlled environments full of do's and don'ts, the flesh-centered doctrines really do make a way for people to be extremely carnal in their focus and behavior. I believe that money/business is one of the factors behind the allowance and practice of abortion. I also believe that, secondarily, (I'm going out on a limb here) having abortion available is a way to handle embarrassing pregnancies that might cast prominent (and not-so-prominent) families in an unfavorable light. Further, since it is legal, they have a loophole. Also, abortion fits nicely with the fairly strong feminist agenda you'll find in many Adventist circles where there are lots of female professionals trying to hold their own in a man's world--which Adventism really is. While not all Adventist doctors or even hospitals will perform abortions on demand, as Inside/outsider pointed out some months ago, some do. The church's policy actually allows for this reality. In short, I've come to suspect that the anti-Catholic attitude is more of a useful tool to "control" the laity than it is a true belief of individual church leaders. While it's "official" Adventism, in reality there has been significant collaboration between the two in unpublicized ways. The abortion stance, I believe, grows out of a theology that does not believe in a literal human spirit and that also subtly (or not so subtly) rewards financial success with church authority. I suspect that many Adventists who support the right to abort would say they do not equate abortion with literal murder. Without a spirit setting humanity apart from animals, such an attitude might actually be arguable. Colleen | ||
| Loneviking (Loneviking) |
Well, Colleen, I guess I won't be at the Friday night study. I have the dubious privilege of participating in a SDA funeral on Sat. for an aunt of mine that passed away Sunday night. The service is going to be in the SDA church I grew up in, and is the same church that put up the huge facade of three angels. I haven't been there since my mothers' funeral in '96 and have no idea who the minister is. It should be an interesting weekend.......... Bill | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
Bill, you'll be in our prayers. Colleen | ||
| Dennis (Dennis) |
Ashamedly, I confess that my wife and I even once attended a pro-abortion rally on the steps of the Nebraska State Capitol. We were typical, liberal Adventists on this topic. When we first started attending the First Evangelical Free Church (First Free), former Governor Kay Orr of Nebraska, was a guest speaker at our Sunday School class. She and her husband (former First Gentleman of Nebraska) made an outstanding pro-life presentation. The former Governor told how she became a Christian after completing her governorship; her remarks were prefaced with, "Good Morning, Brothers and Sisters." She was formerly a member of a large, prestigious Presbyterian Church, where one of their elders was the sole abortionist in our community. She is now an active member of a local Missouri Synod Lutheran Church. As the former Governor made her presentation, my wife asked her several questions that pro-abortion people think important. After the presentation, the lady seated next to my wife introduced herself as the senior pastor's wife. She must have wondered who these liberal visitors were that probed the former Governor for answers. We were impressed with Governor Orr's carefully-worded answers to Sylvia's questions. Fortunately, the members of our Sunday School class, including the teacher, were most understanding, non-judgmental, and accommodating with our initial liberal stance. While still an Adventist, I used to expound that the abortion issue was simply a much-needed commonality between Protestants and Catholics that would eventually bring about the "death decree." I agree with Colleen, that the Adventist teaching against the dualistic nature of man, makes abortion permissable. After all, if we die like animals, why not live like animals? Moreover, why even question the morality of sucking a fetus down a sink? Human life is so cheap and meaningless, that it will even become nonexistent at death, according to soul-sleep/conditionalist heresy. Dennis J. Fischer | ||
| Seekr777 (Seekr777) |
Dear friends, I've quietly read just about every post over the last few months and been blessed much by what I read. I've been "blown away" by some of this information regarding abortion beliefs amoung SDAs. I attend an SDA church which is considered on the "fringe" of SDAism by many and yet amoung my friends I would say there is a strong feeling against abortion. Maybe we are not as liberal as we are painted.  Maybe our being considered on the fringe of SDAism should not be based on our worship style but our message of salvation by Grace Alone. Maybe this is what the denomination should be afraid of, (the message of our pastor which is "Grace Alone") and not our worship style. <sad smile> Please remember our church in your prayers as the Holy Spirit leads each individual into a revelation of His will. richard | ||
| Seekr777 (Seekr777) |
Colleen, I have a favor to ask. Do you remember who attended the Friday night session I visited? If you do, can you connect an "online name" to each of those there. Who here is the "ex" of a person I know? Who are the two teachers who were there besides you. I'm trying to make connections. Thanks, richard | ||
| Bob (Bob) |
Hi, Richard! I was at the Bible study the night you attended several weeks ago. I'm sure that now you remember who I am, and how I am related to some other people you know. Colleen and I share responsiblity on alternate weeks for leading the weekly Bible study of the Redlands FAF group. If you want to email me, just click on my name at the top of this post. | ||
| Bob (Bob) |
Richard, I guess you can't connect to my email address from this site. I will ask a mutual acquaintance of ours to give you my email address. | ||
| Janice (Janice) |
Susan, I have recently joined this forum and welcome such discussions as the state of the dead. I am like you, why is this such a big deal among the SDAs? They openly attack Paul's simple messages about this subject and either say that we have misintrepreted what was said or else they don't put much credence with Paul's writings. I read and have had quoted by SDAs that ALL scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable...this means that even though some scripture verses may not pertain to us as Christians now, they indeed are to our profit to help us form sound doctrine within the body of the church and profitable for correcting people in their misintrepretations, a good example is the many false doctrines presented by EGW that makes for World War III around my house when the family gets together, unfortunately since my family is split (a schism my SDA sister says) we are no longer a family unit, we are 400 miles apart with apparently no room for reconciliation since I refuse to join my mother and sister's family in their beliefs. My sister wrote me an e-mail last year, after many, many letters of defending our individual beliefs, that stated that they had no desire for me to become SDA but stated too that it certainly would reunite the family and remove the schism that was between us. It is sad to say that your mother has been very sadly misinformed as to what a New Ager actually is and also what a Spiritualist believes. I have a handbook of denominations that actually lists the different beliefs within each group mentioned and why they believe what they do. Spiritualists actually pray to Satan and refer to Jesus as a medium and quote scripture where Jesus communed with spirits to justify their way of thinking. New Agers aren't much better than gypsys in their doctrines, they believe in reincarnation and communicate with the spirit world much like the witch of Endor mentioned in scripture. Many misconceptions has come about due to EGW's expounding of the gospels. Scripture is taken out of context in almost every argument made by the SDAs. We are commanded to study to show ourselves approved, we are God's workmen and shouldn't be ashamed of the fact that God speaks through his Spirit and guides us as we search for truth. I tried to ask my SDA family members to explain what it meant when Jesus went and spoke to the spirits in prison as told in I Peter 3:19 and all I was given in reply was that the preacher had explained it to them, seems like if it was explained then why couldn't they explain it to me? Another verse that they have problems with is found in the book of Jude, verse 14 speaks of the Lord coming WITH ten thousands of his saints. How is it that WE SAINTS are with him when he comes if we are in an unconscious state? One last thing that I want to discuss in the forum in future times is about the doctrine of eternal hell verses annihilation. My questions to ponder: Why would God wake you up out of a sound sleep to turn around and say depart into the lake of fire? Why wouldn't he just leave an unsaved soul in eternal sleep where the dead no nothing if this is actually what the Bible says? Why would Jesus go to preach in the lower parts of the earth if everyone there was asleep? Who would have heard him if this was true? Also, who were the captives that he set free that day if no one is absent from the body and present with the Lord now after Christ's resurrection? After all, Christ was referred to as the first fruits of the resurrection, and that would explain the story about the rich man being in torments, this is not a parable as EGW claims, but it is an actual story that described what the after life was before Christ went there. In his death, the state of the dead was changed, how else could the scripture be explained about the spirits appearing to many AFTER the resurrection? (Matthew 27:53)Too many scriptures prove how bogus many of the claims of EGW actually are, and in light of that fact, we all should remember this important verse of scripture: For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousess; whose end shall be according to their works. II Corinthians 11:13-15 is certainly a warning to be on the lookout for false prophets, isn't it? And in closing I urge you all to read Ezekiel 33, I believe this is our call to arms, don't you? We are to warn the SDA and any other cult against a false hope of salvation. We need to sound the trumpet against EGW louder and louder. God bless you, I know this web site is truly an answer to my prayers, let's keep on for the Lord. Amen? | ||
| Janice (Janice) |
Pheeki, The scripture you spoke of is found in the book of Matthew, read my letter to Susan, I think I said it was in Matt. 27:53. You are right, everything changed with the crucifixion. When I told everyone about my rifle fire of scripture for the last year with my sister, I forgot to mention that it actually started just after my mother attended a Wednesday night service at my Baptist church and heard our preacher talk about the eternal security doctrine. He spoke from the Bible about the story of Lot and quoted II Peter 2:7--And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked. This chapter continues with the story and verse 8 refers to Lot as righteous, in verse 7, he was called JUST, our preacher used this story as an analogy of the truth of redemption. Lot was SAVED out of destruction just as we will be saved from tribulation, we are made righteous by Christ's blood. Lot was justified because of God's promise made to Abraham and God will never fail to keep his promises. After hearing this sermon, my mother came home with me asking many questions about what she had heard, it was food for thought and I thanked God for the opportunity of being in God's house once more with my mother. I guess she saw no harm in coming since it was a Wednesday night service, but it showed me that my mother isn't as grounded in SDA beliefs as my sister. I know that she spoke about this sermon with my sister because my sister promptly gave me a great explanation for the questions of my mother. I was told that my mother merely was discussing with me to get me to see how irrational this line of reasoning was, how could my sister possibly know what my mother's reasoning was with the questions, she wasn't even there to see the expression on my mother's face as she sat there drinking it all in. I think that my sister scolded her when she expressed her doubts after hearing this sermon and my sister chastized her for doubting the SDAs doctrines. I was then warned not to interfere with my mother's growth as a SDA, why, I want to say, is my sister interferring with my mother's spiritual growth as a Christian? I do believe that my mother was saved those many years ago, but she is very spiritually immature and easily misled. Please pray for her, she even got rid of her computer because she didn't want to receive any more of my web sites or e-mails, she doesn't admit that fact but I do believe it was a determining factor in getting rid of her computer. I don't even know if my sister still has her computer and if she does, she probably has it blocked after I told her that her children were watching her as she baggered me with her e-mails, if she still has the computer, she has probably deleted everything for fear that the girls might be swayed. I pray that my nieces will get the gospel and hopefully change the hearts and minds of their lifelong SDA father and converted SDA mother before it is too late. Also pray for my other sister and my oldest son who view all of this correspondence going on within the family as an excuse to stay out of ANY organized religion. We are viewed as a bunch of hypocrites in their eyes, God help us all as we grow and help others to grow. Talk to you later, Janice | ||
| Pheeki (Pheeki) |
I asked my brother (SDA preacher) why EGW says we are never to say we are saved. He stated he would let the White Estate answer for him. What I got is some pieced togeather mishmash of them trying to explain what she really meant. Can anyone make sense of it? It looks like they put several quotes together from different books to make her sound better??? I'll let the "White Estate" answer for me. The regular print is the quote that you refer to. The Capital Letters in brackets is supplied by the "White Estate" in answer to a commonly asked question. "In Him we have a complete offering, an infinite sacrifice, a mighty Saviour, who is able to save unto the uttermost all that come unto God by Him. In love He comes to reveal the Father, to reconcile man to God, to make him a new creature renewed after the image of Him who created him." [IBID., P. 321.] {NL 41.3} peter's problem The evil that led to Peter's fall [in denying Christ at His trial] . . . is proving the ruin of thousands today. There is nothing so offensive to God or so dangerous to the human soul as pride and self-sufficiency. Of all sins it is the most hopeless, the most incurable.<FDNL 41.4} 41 Peter's fall was not instantaneous, but gradual. Self-confidence led him to the belief that he was saved, and step after step was taken in the downward path, until he could deny his Master. Never can we safely put confidence in self or feel, this side of heaven, that we are secure against temptation. Those who accept the Saviour, however sincere their conversion, should never be taught to say or to feel that they are saved. [NOTE: IT IS THE PRIVILEGE OF THE CHRISTIAN TO KNOW THAT ON HIS ACCEPTANCE OF CHRIST HE IS SAVED FROM HIS SINS AND CAN REJOICE IN THIS SALVATION. BUT NEITHER THE SCRIPTURES NOR THE SPIRIT OF PROPHECY WRITINGS SUPPORTS THE POPULAR TEACHING: "ONCE SAVED, ALWAYS SAVED." A PERSON MAY BE SAVED TODAY, BUT FAILING TO KEEP HIS EYES ON JESUS AND TO GROW DAILY IN HIM, MAY BECOME SELF-CONFIDENT AND BE LOST TOMORROW. THE APOSTLE PAUL DECLARED, "I DIE DAILY." IN A SENSE, CONVERSION IS A DAILY EXPERIENCE. {NL 42.1} STUDY CAREFULLY THE WARNING DRAWN FROM THE LESSON IN PETER'S LIFE. READ IT IN ITS FULL CONTEXT AND IN CONJUNCTION WITH THE SIMILAR STATEMENT THAT FOLLOWS. YOU WILL FIND THE PERPLEXING PASSAGE TO BE SELF-EXPLANATORY. OUR LORD WOULD HAVE EACH CHRISTIAN REJOICE FREELY IN HIS THE SALVATION HE ENJOYS DAILY. AND WHEN ASKED, "ARE YOU SAVED?" HE CAN WITH ASSURANCE ANSWER YES. HE WILL EXPLAIN THAT THIS EXPERIENCE IS ONE THAT RESULTS IN CONSTANT DEPENDENCE ON GOD AND IN DAILY CHRISTIAN GROWTH.--WHITE TRUSTEES.] This is misleading. Every one should be taught to cherish hope and faith; but even when we give ourselves to Christ and know that He accepts us, we are not beyond the reach of temptation. God's Word declares, "Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried" (Dan. 12:10). Only he who endures the trial will receive the crown of life (James 1:12). Those who accept Christ, and in their first confidence say, I am saved, are in danger of trusting to themselves. They lose sight of their own weakness and their constant need of divine strength. They are unprepared for Satan's devices, and under temptation many, like Peter, fall into the very depths of sin. We are admonished, "Let him that thinketh he standeth, take heed lest he fall" (1 Cor. 10:12). Our only safety is in constant distrust of self, and dependence on Christ. [CHRIST'S OBJECT LESSONS, PP. 154, 155.] {NL 42.2} Can you believe that???? Anyway...here is the good news! My mother is experiencing the Good news of salvation and is saying with her own mouth that she is saved. She says she has never felt freer in her whole life than she does now! All the months of talking to her and giving her Bible studies has paid off! You know, she told my brother that I was giving her bible studies but he never tried to stop it or counteract it. Maybe he thought she was so grounded in SDAism he didn't need to worry. He didn't have to worry about her saying she was saved then b/c she never would have said it. Now she is saying it loud and long and her steps are light and her face is light and she is talking to people instead of feeling sorry for herself! Praise God from whom all blessings flow! | ||
| Lydell (Lydell) |
Denise....message sent. Don't really want to leave the rest of you out of this particular message, or seem cryptic, but I'm away from home staying at my sons for a few days and don't have my addresses here with me. Denise will know what I am referring to, and why her prayers are requested. |
