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Speakeasy
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Username: Speakeasy

Post Number: 151
Registered: 9-2002
Posted on Friday, October 08, 2004 - 11:20 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I am just struggling with this Topic and many other's. I am struggling mightly. And I am just searching.

I have NEVER under estimated the time he has put in on this at all.

This is only one of many topics that I struggle with. Christmas is coming up and this is a tuff subject as well. So just because you have come to the conlusion that all is okay with you and your studyies on everything that you except. There are many out there that are still searching and looking. And I am just one of them.

I have came along way. I in just a few months I do not believe that keeping the sabbath has anything to do with salvation. And that I have to keep all the feast and Festivals and food laws that my family says I need to. And to keep all the other Mosiac laws that my hertitage has taught me.

I still have along way to go and I want to get there. So hang in there and maybe one day the porch light may come on.
speakeasy
33ad
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Post Number: 36
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Posted on Saturday, October 09, 2004 - 5:35 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Speakeasy, Iím sorry I did not reply to your posts yesterday. Actually it was way past my bedtime and I switched off after my last posting. I live in a different time zone in South Africa.
About the AD / BC /CE /BCE thing. On the surface it looks quite innocent, The dates after all have not changed. But actually it is quite sinister. CE and BCE was introduced by a Satanic Cabal who would dearly love to not have to remember that Jesus Christ existed, and that the Christian world starts their time from about the birth of the Christ (I know, Jesus was born 4years out, but itís the idea that counts) That is why I as a Christian will not stop using AD and BC for dating purposes.
Now, you would like me to give you texts in the OT that say Jesus, The Christ is the G-d of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. OK, there are NO texts in the old testament that refer to Jesus by name. I take it that you know ëChristí means ëMessiahí; and you have stated that you believe in Jesus. So I may assume you accept Jesus as Messiah.
Now, to get the answers in the OT is like a math problem. You are told a set of given statements, like A=B. You then have to work out from that data to prove that X=Y.
As I have already noted, you do profess to believe in Jesus. So we will start in the NT at Colossians 1: 16. ìFor by him were all things created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.î Now letís get the connection with Abraham here. Going to Genesis 14:22 ìBut Abram said to the king of Sodom, ìI have raised my hand to the Lord , (YHWH) God Most High, Creator of heaven and earth, and have taken an oathÖî So here Paul tells us in Colossians that Jesus, the Head of the Church, was the Creator, and we have Abram making an oath to the Lord God Most High, Creator of heaven and earth. So who was the G-g of Abram? By association we must conclude it to be Jesus, The Christ.
Again, we turn to the NT, and John 1:18 ìNo one has ever seen God (The Father), but God the One and Only, who is at the Fatherís side, has made him known.î NIV.
Turning to the OT in Genesis 18:1 ìThe Lord (YHWH) appeared to Abraham near the great trees of Mamre while he was sitting at the entrance to his tent in the heat of the day.î If Paul tells us no one has seen G-d, but we have seen Jesus, then the One who came to visit Abraham that day was Jesus. Now again by conclusion, we must accept that in Genises 28:13 ìthe Lord the God of your father Abraham and the God of Isaac.î Spoken of here is the same G-d who appeared to Abraham at his tent, in other words, Jesus. Letís stay in the OT and go to Exodus 3. Here we read of Moses seeing the burning bush, (Verse 2) and he goes to take a closer look. In verse 5 G-d tells him to remove his sandals, as he is standing on holy ground. When Moses is told to go to the Israelites in Egypt to fetch them out, Moses asks (Verse 13) what he should tell them, who sent him. Exodus 3:14 ì God said to Moses, ìI AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: I AM has sent me to you.î Now letís go to the NT at John 8:57,58 ìYou are not yet fifty years old, (Speaking to Jesus)..and you have seen Abraham!î ìI tell you you truth,î Jesus answered, ìbefore Abraham was born, I am!î Jesus either was the greatest blasphemer, or he truly is the Great I Am, the G-d of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
I hope you can see the connection. I am not going to debate this matter any further. The others in their postings have all given you more than I can ever tell you.
May the Grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be upon you, and may you be blessed.
You may call me Loren in future.
Chris
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Post Number: 421
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Posted on Saturday, October 09, 2004 - 8:24 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

One of the goals I would like to accomplish is this study is to demonstrate that the picture God has given of Himself is not mystical, but highly rational. That is to say, the truths expressed in scripture may be studied, examined, defined, and will ultimately be shown to be in harmony with each other. This is not to suggest that we as finite creatures will ever be able to fully comprehend infinite divinity, the creature is always less than the creator. And yet, the infinite God of the universe has condescended to reveal certain things about Himself to us in ways we can apprehend. Apprehending these truths does not require an existential experience, but a simple willingness to except the teaching of scripture on each point. This statement in no way minimizes the crucial role the role of the Holy Spirit in guiding our study, giving us understanding, and applying truth to our life. Rather it is a critique of existentialism as a system of undefinable mystical experience completely divorced from intellectual involvement or rational thought. If we accept all scripture (OT and NT) as inerrant, then the questions and answers really become quite straightforward: Does the Bible teach that there is only one God or not? Yes or no? Does the Bible teach personal distinctions between the Father, Son, and Spirit? Yes or no? Does the Bible teach that Jesus Christ is God? Yes or no? Evidently God believed it to be important to reveal the answers to us in dozens of place throughout His word. It if God chose to reveal Himself to us, the least we can do is take the time and effort to study the answers God gave us and to pray for the guidance of the Holy Spirit in apprehending and accepting truth.

So far we have seen that scripture teaches quite plainly that:

1. There is only one God, YHWH, there are no others.
2. There are personal distinctions between the Father, Son, and Spirit.
3. a) The Father is God.

Today I continue present the overwhelming scriptural evidence for the cardinal truth of the Bible: The Son, Jesus the Christ, is God. Today we will observe that JESUS RECEIVES THE HONOTS THAT ARE DUE GOD ALONE. Consider the following scripture:

HONOR-

23 so that all will honor the Son even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.
John 5:23 (NASB)

LOVE-
37 "He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me.
Matt 10:37 (NASB)

PRAYER-
14 "If you ask Me anything in My name, I will do it.
John 14:14 (NASB)

59 They went on stoning Stephen as he called on the Lord and said, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit!"
Acts 7:59 (NASB)

12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him;
13 for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."
Romans 10:12-13 (NASB)

2 To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints by calling, with all who in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours:
1 Cor 1:2 (NASB)

WORSHIP-
17 When they saw Him, they worshiped Him; but some were doubtful.
Matt 28:17 (NASB)
6 And when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says, "AND LET ALL THE ANGELS OF GOD WORSHIP HIM."
Heb 1:6 (NASB)

FAITH-
16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
John 3:16 (NIV)

1 "Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God; trust also in me.
John 14:1 (NIV)
If Jesus receives these honors that should only go to God, then we must conclude he is either a) a false teacher or b) God Himself and therefore worthy of all honor and worship. Very few people would argue for option ìaî, but we know that option ìbî is strongly stated in dozens of places, as we have seen over the last week. We can either choose to accept it or deny the teaching of scripture. Next time weíll see that Jesus does the works of God.

Chris
Speakeasy
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Post Number: 152
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Posted on Saturday, October 09, 2004 - 5:05 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

33ad There are writtings from as early as 1310 that use these datings of ce/bce. So when did this satanical Cabal start this? But the AD needs to start at about our 27 to 30 ad. Becuase that is about when Jesus died. Jesus did not die at 1 ad. You have to agree with this. If we use your analogy that the church started at 33 ad that means the church started about 33 to 34 years after Christ's birthday.
speakeasy
Speakeasy
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Post Number: 153
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Posted on Saturday, October 09, 2004 - 5:09 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Chris I lost you. On three other posts on this thread I have read that Jesus is G-d. But above you have the Father as G-d. So who is G-d? Jesus or the Father? And also on this thread it has been posted that the Father is Not G-d? I am loosing you on this subject again.
speakeasy
Chris
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Post Number: 422
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Posted on Saturday, October 09, 2004 - 5:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Speakeasy, I have NEVER posted that the Father is NOT God. Quite the contrary, scripture clearly teaches that the Father IS God. Scripture also teaches that the Son, Jesus Christ, is God, and later we'll see that the scripture teaches that the Spirit is God. This gets to pulling it all together, which I'm not quite ready to do, but if scripture teaches that the Father, Son, and Spirit are God (and it clearly does), and the scripture teaches that there is only ONE God (and it clearly does), then we have to bend the knee to scripture and accept the fact that the Father, Son, and Spirit are ONE. So when you ask, "So who is G_d?", the answer is that there is only ONE God, that ONE God is YHWH, and there are no others. YHWH is God, period. YHWH is defined by the eternal personal relationships within Himself. YHWH has always been Father, Son, and Spirit. Later on we'll talk about the differences between the terms "being" and "person", they are NOT synonimous. But for now, please review the scriptures posted throughout this entire thread. Pray over each group of texts and ask G-d to answer these questions for you:

1. LORD G_d, does Your Word teach that there is only one G_d, YHWH, and there are no others? Yes or No?

2. LORD G_d, does Your Word teach that there are eternal distinctions between the Father, Son, and Spirit? Yes or No?

3. a) LORD God, does your word teach that the Father is God? Yes or No?

3. b) LORD G_d, does Your Word teach that the Son, Jesus Christ is G_d? Yes or No?

3. c) Lord G_d, does Your Word teach that the Spirit is G_d? Yes or No?

Speakeasy, all these truths are so important that G_d chose to condescend to reveal them to us. He clearly wanted us to apprehend at least a little bit of Who and What He is. I understand very well that neither you nor I, as finite humans, can fully understand an infinite God that exist as three persons in one being, and yet I bow my knee before these truths because the Bible teaches them. Speakeasy, I know you're struggling with this, as well as many other things. If I had to pick one over-riding cardinal truth for you to pray over and focus on at this point in your spiritual walk, it would be this one:

"Jesus Christ is God."

Speakeasy, Jesus is worthy of ALL worship, He is worthy of ALL honor, He is completely sovereign, He is able to forgive, He is able to save, He is the Creator, He is the Law giver, He is the fulfillment of the Law, He is the mediator of a NEW Covenant, He is our Savior, He is our LORD, He is G_d, He is YHWH, He is the God of both the OT and the NT, He is completely trustworthy, He is all sufficient.

Speakeasy, if you come to know this Jesus, the Jesus described in the scriptures I have posted, you will also come to know the peace and assurance that only Jesus Christ, God the Son, can bring.

Chris
Susan_2
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Post Number: 999
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Posted on Saturday, October 09, 2004 - 7:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

33AD, That is interesting what you wrote about the orgin of the BCE for dating time. Did you know the JW organiztion won't use or allow their members to use the BC or AD terms? They have to use the BCE and the CE terms.
Speakeasy
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Post Number: 154
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Posted on Saturday, October 09, 2004 - 8:32 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Chris;
I lost you on your post 398 you stated:
"God the Father is not Jesus"

and in post I believe 413 you posted that
"The Son (Jesus) is God" and "The Father is God"

But in post 398 you stated that "God the Father is not Jesus"

You said Jesus is G-d but then you say G-d the Father is Not Jesus. I don't understand. You are going 2 different ways and wanting 2 different things to Be G-d but Not be G-d.

What person Saves me. The G-d That Jesus was praying to on the Cross. Or does Jesus save me and report to G-d that Jesus prayed top on the cross. It is confusing.
speakeasy
Chris
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Post Number: 423
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Posted on Sunday, October 10, 2004 - 8:51 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Speakeasy,

First on the salvation question. Please go back to my post (#419 10/7) that list texts stating who has the title of savior. Let's interact on that question from the basis of scripture. If scripture seems unclear on this point, let me know which scirpture you are confused about and why.

Second, let me be VERY VERY clear on the next point: There is only one Being that is God, period. I believe you and I agreed on that earlier in the thread So I am obivously not stating that two different "things" or Beings are God.

I'll say it again. There is only one living thing, or Being, that is God. Period. Any suggestion that there is more than one God is a heresy that is easily contradicted by scripture. I think you and I agree on this point so we really don't need to go over it further.

I also think from reading your posts that you would probably agree that the Father, Son, and Spirit are three persons.

But if we only look at these two truths, we have a very incomplete picture. We still need to examine what the scripture tells us about the nature of the Father, Son, and Spirit. That is the part of the study we are in right now.

So for now, try to keep an open mind and consider the following possibility. Isn't it just possible that a God that is infinite, a God that created the whole universe including space and time, a God that transcends space and time, a God that stands outside of all known dimensions, might, just might be able to always exist in three personally distinct ways (or persons) simultaneously? This would certainly describe a Being that is much much bigger than us and very hard for us to comprehend, but isn't it just possible that such an infinite Being exists?

I personally believe He not only exists, but He has communicated with His creation through the Bible and in the Bible He has revealed certain truths to us about Himself. So this is not about my opinion or your opinion. It's about what scripture says.

So let me make this suggestion. If you think that any of scriptures I have posted do not teach what they seem to teach, let's talk about that scripture and really dig into it to see what it is saying and why. We could go back and forth with speculation or debate all day, but let's get back to scripture and talk specifically about the texts that teach:

1. There is only one being that is God. Does scripture teach this yes or no?
2. The Father, Son, and Spirit are eternally personally distinct (three persons). Does scripture teach this yes or no.
3. The Father, Son, and Spirit are the ONE God refereced in #1. Does scripture teach this yes or no?

Chris
Chris
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Post Number: 424
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Posted on Sunday, October 10, 2004 - 9:20 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

We are still working on truth #3 b) The Son, Jesus Christ, is God. Today I will post scriptures that teach that JESUS DOES THE WORKS OF GOD:

CREATION

3 All things came into being through Him [Jesus the Word], and apart from Him [Jesus] nothing, came into being that has come into being.
John 1:3 (NASB)

6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.
1 Cor 8:6 (NASB)

16 For by Him [the Son] all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authoritiesóall things have been created through Him [the Son] and for Him [the Son]. 17 He [the Son] is before all things, and in Him [the Son] all things hold together.
Col 1:16-17 (NASB)

2 in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.
Heb 1:2 (NASB)

14 "And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: The words of the Amen [Christ], the faithful and true witness, the origin of God's creation:

Rev 3:14 (NRSV)

36 For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be the glory forever. Amen.
Romans 11:36 (NRSV)

10 It was fitting that God, for whom and through whom all things exist, in bringing many children to glory, should make the pioneer of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
Heb 2:10 (NRSV)

28 For 'In him we live and move and have our being'; as even some of your own poets have said, 'For we too are his offspring.'
Acts 17:28 (NRSV)

24 Thus says the LORD (YHWH), your Redeemer, who formed you in the womb: I am the LORD (YHWH), who made all things, who alone stretched out the heavens, who by myself spread out the earth;
Isaiah 44:24 (NRSV)


SUSTAINING THE UNIVERSE

17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.
Col 1:17 (NASB)

3 And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,
Heb 1:3 (NASB)


SALVATION

9 And having been made perfect, He [Jesus] became to all those who obey Him [Jesus] the source of eternal salvation,
Heb 5:9 (NASB)

"The LORD (YHWH) is my strength and song, And He has become my salvation; This is my God, and I will praise Him; My father's God, and I will extol Him.
Ex 15:2 (NASB)


JESUS DOES *ALL* THE WORKS OF GOD

17 But He answered them, "My Father is working until now, and I Myself am working."
Jesus' Equality with God
18 For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.
19 Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing, of Himself, unless, it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever, the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner. 20 "For the Father loves the Son, and shows Him all things that He Himself is doing; and the Father will show Him greater works than these, so that you will marvel. 21 "For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son also gives life to whom He wishes. 22 "For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son, 23 so that all will honor the Son even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.
24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
25 "Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. 26 "For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself; 27 and He gave Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man. 28 "Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, 29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.
John 5:17-29 (NASB)

Next time we will see that scripture teaches that Jesus has the incommunicable attributes of God.

Chris
Chris
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Post Number: 425
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Posted on Sunday, October 10, 2004 - 9:33 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Speakeasy, I just realized that my post in this thread that dealt with the title savior has been archived. So to make it easy for you to research your question regarding who the savior is, I have cut and pasted the pertinent section here.

Speakeasy, to the best of your understanding, what do these scritpures teach about who the savior is?

SAVIOR-

11 for today in the city of David there has been born for you a Savior, who is Christ the Lord.

Luke 2:11 (NASB)

42 and they were saying to the woman, "It is no longer because of what you said that we believe, for we have heard for ourselves and know that this One is indeed the Savior of the world."

John 4:42 (NASB)

14 We have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.

1 John 4:14 (NASB)

13 looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus,

Titus 2:13 (NASB)

10 not pilfering, but showing all good faith so that they will adorn the doctrine of God our Savior in every respect.

Titus 2:10 (NASB)

11 "I, even I, am the LORD (YHWH), And there is no savior besides, Me.

Isaiah 43:11 (NASB)

21 "Declare and set forth your case; Indeed, let them consult together. Who has announced this from of old? Who has long since declared it? Is it not I, the LORD (YHWH)? And there is no other God besides, Me, A righteous God and a Savior; There is none except Me.
22 "Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth; For I am God, and there is no other.

Isaiah 45:21-22 (NASB)

10 For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.

1 Tim 4:10 (NASB)

9 And having been made perfect, He [Christ] became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation,

Heb 5:9 (NASB)

2 "The LORD (YHWH) is my strength and song, And He has become my salvation; This is my God, and I will praise Him; My father's God, and I will extol Him.

Ex 15:2 (NASB)

14 The LORD (YHWH) is my strength and song, And He has become my salvation.

Psalms 118:14 (NASB)

21 I shall give thanks to You, for You have answered me, And You have become my salvation.

Psalms 118:21 (NASB)


So what do you think about these texts Speakeasy?

Chris
33ad
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Posted on Sunday, October 10, 2004 - 11:25 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Susan,
The 'Knights Templars' who were part of the crusades, supposedly dug up 'secret information' in Jerusalem, but which were Satanic Writings brought back from the Babylonian Exile, and kept back in Europe by secret societies (I will not mention their names on this forum, but it's not hard to guess. Nosradamus being one of their adherants) So Speakeasy is correct in stating there are writings from 1310 with this information. But as I said before, it was brought in to 'wipe out' the memory of Christ's existence. The JW's are 'Arians' who don't believe in Jesus Divinity either. That would make sense that they refuse to use AD / BC. The general scientific world did not start using this dating suffix widely till after the mid 20th century.
Speakeasy, the AD is supposed to start at Christ's birth. I know that the early historians were 4 years out, but that is where it is supposed to be counting from, not the date of Jesus crucifixion. We are also not quite sure of the exact year that Jesus was crucified. That is still a matter of debate, but the year 33 is generally accepted for convenience.
Loren
Speakeasy
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Post Number: 155
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Posted on Monday, October 11, 2004 - 8:15 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Your dating on AD/BC does not make since. When Jesus was on the earth. Was this BC or AD? If it is AD then we know exactly when Jesus was born. And that we could put the end of the arguement is our December 25th date correct for the birth of Jesus. If AD (After Death) is correct. Then AD 1-1-1ad would mean that Jesus was born around 33bc but if Jesus was born around 33bc then the bc means that Jesus was not the christ. Until he died? But we know that Jesus was the christ before AD becuase Peter in his confession said that Jesus is the Christ. So if the BC and AD is correct and excepted. we have 33 years of lost time. There can not be a BC=before Christ when Jesus was on the earth. Because Jesus was always the Messiah (Christ). If we use the BC and AD system. Were is the lost 33 years of time. Even the CE and BCE is not correct as well. Becuase we don't know when the AD and BC and the BCE and CE started. It is all guessing. So to say we know that the church started in 33 ad we don't know that for sure. When was the 4 Gospels written. Most scholars will say that the 4 Gospels were written in AD. But that means that all of what happened that was written Happened in BC becuase Jesus has not died yet. But if all of the things happened of the 4 Gospels in BC then you are saying that Jesus was Not christ yet. The dating system is wrong. And the BC/AD even the CE/BCE is wrong as well.

We are building things that is part of our beliefe system that is not correct. No one will know. But this is not a Salvational point. But it is a point that needs to be stated that. These dating systems maybe excepted but they do not stand on solid ground. The only thing that does stand on solid ground is that Jesus is the Messiah.


speakeasy
Speakeasy
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Post Number: 156
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Posted on Monday, October 11, 2004 - 8:18 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Chris over the next few days I am going to re-read your posts. I have lost you on some major points and need to re-read and study what you have posted. So I know what I am talking about. If I need to reply.

Christ thanks for all of you hard work and posting on this subject. You are very good at what you are doing for me on this hard to understand topic. Were I am having problems is seeing Jesus in the Old Testament scriptures.

speakeasy
Dd
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Posted on Monday, October 11, 2004 - 8:45 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Speakeasy,
The Old Testament is all about Jesus. The underlying theme throughout is God's love relationship with His chosen people and the "ritual" God set up for His people to show their acceptance of His love and grace was the Sacrifical Lamb. which points to Jesus Christ.

I am sure there are advanced students of the Old Testament on this forum that can discuss this further with you. I am in a study of Acts this year and I want to point out to you something I just learned.

After Jesus had risen from the grave (which is prophecy of the O.T.), He presented Himself alive to His disciples. He appeared to them over a period of forty days giving them convincing proofs (Acts 1:3) that He was alive. He also spent time talking with them about things He had said to them and also reviewed Old Testament writings that were written about Him. Look at Luke 24:44-48 - Jesus spent time before His ascension to Heaven teaching the disciples to understand how the Old Testament Passover Lamb, ceremonies, rituals...were intended by God to prepare the world to recognize Jesus as their Savior, LORD and King.

It is my belief that I must understand the Old Testament to understand all the facets of Jesus' death and the glory of God's unconditional love and grace.

Doc
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Post Number: 124
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Posted on Monday, October 11, 2004 - 9:20 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dear Speakeasy,

When Jesus was on the earth, it was already AD. The dating system, as it has been stated is probably a few years out, and it is only a convention anyway and certainly no basis for faith. It starts with the birth of Christ.

The confusion possibly arises because AD in fact stands for Anno Domini, which is Latin for "in the year of the Lord," and not for "after death." The years of the Lord start with his birth, and there are no missing 33 years.

Hope this helps,
Adrian
Colleentinker
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Username: Colleentinker

Post Number: 788
Registered: 12-2003
Posted on Monday, October 11, 2004 - 1:07 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dd, thanks for sharing your Acts inisght. I completely agree with you re: understanding the OT is essential for understanding the great depth and glory of God's unconditional grace and of Christ's death and resurrection. I am grateful now for the amount of OT emphasis I did have as an Adventist, because even though I didn't understand it in a "big picture" sort of way that made sense with the NT, God is redeeming that knowledge by helping me see it as part of His revelation of Himself. He is helping me see that "big picture" without my having to start from scratch, so to speak. He is transforming my SDA knowledge into a completely new, rich understanding of His amazing grace.

Colleen
Speakeasy
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Posted on Monday, October 11, 2004 - 1:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Doc It could not be that when Jesus was on the earth it was AD. Because Jesus was born anywere from 3bc to maybe 5bc. But yes AD DOES NOT mean and you are correct (After Death). The AD /BC System is majorly flawed. And this has nothing to do with erasing Jesus from the Dating record. At what time did the AD start? When did mankind know when to stop using BC and then started AD? What ever time that was and who ever started it.We know that there records of when they started the BC/AD is wrong. Because We know when John was born at about 4 ad to 5 ad and Jesus was born about the same time. And that Jesus was born if I am correct and may not be. But Jesus was born at the time of King Herod and the taxing cencus that was takin place at the time that Mary and Joseph went to Bethlehem was at that time as well. And this time period would be from 3 bc to 5 bc. So we are off as much as 5 years.

I love this type of History and learning these type of things. None of it is salvational or doctrine but it is nice to know these things.
speakasy
Doc
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Posted on Monday, October 11, 2004 - 2:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Speakeasy,

I seem to remember reading that Herod the Great died in 4 BC, so Jesus must have been born before that.

Just an interesting point, though, that is all.

Adrian
Chris
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Posted on Monday, October 11, 2004 - 6:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

So far we have learned from scripture:

1. There is only one God, YHWH, there are no others.
2. The Father, Son, and Sprit are personally distinct.
3. a) The Father is God.

We are still working on, but coming near the end of, truth #3 b) ìThe Son, Jesus Christ, is God.î Hopefully, it is becoming abundantly clear that there is a wealth of scripture that teaches this truth.

Tonight we will be examining the teaching of scripture that Jesus has all the incommunicable attributes of God.

JESUS HAS ALL THE ATTRIBUTES OF GOD-

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:1 (NASB)

15 Christ is the visible image of the invisible God. He existed before God made anything at all and is supreme over all creation.
Col 1:15 (NLT)

9 For in Christ the fullness of God lives in a human body,
Col 2:9 (NLT)

3 The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word.
Heb 1:3 (NIV)

JESUS IS SELF-EXISTANT-

26 "For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself;
John 5:26 (NASB)
JESUS IS UNCHANGEABLE-

10 And, "YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH, AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS;
11 THEY WILL PERISH, BUT YOU REMAIN; AND THEY ALL WILL BECOME OLD LIKE A GARMENT,
12 AND LIKE A MANTLE YOU WILL ROLL THEM UP; LIKE A GARMENT THEY WILL ALSO BE CHANGED. BUT YOU ARE THE SAME, AND YOUR YEARS WILL NOT COME TO AN END."
Heb 1:10-12 (NASB)

8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.
Heb 13:8 (NASB)

JESUS IS ETERNAL-

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:1 (NASB)

58 Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am."
John 8:58 (NASB)

5 "Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
John 17:5 (NASB)

17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.
Col 1:17 (NASB)

2 in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.
Heb 1:2 (NASB)

JESUS IS OMNIPRESENT-

20 "For where two or three have gathered together in My name, I am there in their midst."
Matt 18:20 (NASB)

20 teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."
Matt 28:20 (NASB)

23 And the church is his body; it is filled by Christ, who fills everything everywhere with his presence.
Eph 1:23 (NLT)

10 He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.)
Eph 4:10 (NIV)

11 Here there is no Greek or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free, but Christ is all, and is in all.
Col 3:11 (NIV)

JESUS IS OMNISCIENT-

30 Now we understand that you know everything and don't need anyone to tell you anything. From this we believe that you came from God."
John 16:30 (NLT)

Next time we will discuss the implications of giving Jesus of the Nazareth the high title of ìSon of Godî.

Chris

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