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Tracey
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Username: Tracey

Post Number: 42
Registered: 9-2004
Posted on Friday, September 24, 2004 - 11:11 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

WHOOPSY! YES, FOLLOW HIS MOM!!

scuze me!
Nancy
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Username: Nancy

Post Number: 12
Registered: 6-2004
Posted on Friday, September 24, 2004 - 12:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

vchowdhury1---Yes, I'm aware of all of those books b/c I've read them. I have them close by b/c every now and then I have those bad feelings & the thoughts of, "Am I really lost b/c I don't keep the "Sabbath" and all the other stuff". I mean, that is so bad to think that there are other people w/in the church that haven't come to the realization that this is wrong-----something is terrible wrong. But again, all you said is right. I remember back in the 80's someone had circulated "The White Lie" book. I can't remember how it came about but my husband now knows that's what it was. The church pushed that under the rug real fast saying as always, "Its just some people out to destroy the church", so I didn't think anymore about it. Colleen, yes everything you said I understand and is so right but I guess I would like a jury! Ha!!!!! Shame on me! I just hate that this continues on & there are innocent people stuck in their deceit. Thanks for listening and I appreciate your comments, you and Colleen. I need to work on my bitterness, I guess.
Colleentinker
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Username: Colleentinker

Post Number: 734
Registered: 12-2003
Posted on Friday, September 24, 2004 - 1:31 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Nancy, I completely empathize with the feelings you're expressing. Your sentence, "I just hate that this continues on and there are innocent people stuck in their deceit" sums up what I often feel. I really have to continue to let God have my feelings and ask Him to expose the truth. I believe that our experiences that we share here are really important, though--you have no idea how often we hear from people who say they thought they were alone in their discoveries and in their pulling away from the church.

You know, Jesus didn't mince words with the Pharisees when He talked to them about their ungodly practices and their deceit and manipulation of the people. I suppose some might think he sounded angry or bitter, but I don't think bitterness sums up what He felt. He felt not only anger, but he felt the weight of their betrayal of the people who trusted them. And he felt the incredible weight of their rejection of Him, the one they claimed to wait for.

We have to be able to express our reactions to what we have experienced--to what we KNOW about the church, and we also have to surrender our experiences, our continuing doubts and fears and anger, to God, asking Him to redeem them and to carry the weight of them for us.

I'm also amazed at how often we hear from people who say we are bitter and angry, both here and through Proclamation. I'm always a bit astonished because I don't see bitterness as primary hallmarks of either venue. Honesty, yes--shared experiences, yes--exposure of truth, yes. But the love of Jesus is transforming, and my experience is that He has eclipsed what I experienced in the church. I believe I'm called to speak the truth about my experience with the church, and I suppose that some people--perhaps especially those who have chosen not to examine their beliefs--may call that bitterness.

I praise God that He is bigger than our feelings, and He mends our hearts and redeems the past.

Colleen
Vchowdhury1
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Username: Vchowdhury1

Post Number: 39
Registered: 7-2004
Posted on Friday, September 24, 2004 - 2:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Anytime that I have doubts about leaving the sda church, and doubts about not keeping the "Sabbath", I just read Romans 14 from the New Living Bible translation. It affirms that I am doing the RIGHT thing. I wonder how the sda's missed this scripture? God is so good.

--Valerie
Dennis
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Username: Dennis

Post Number: 176
Registered: 4-2000
Posted on Friday, September 24, 2004 - 4:42 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Belief transitions, at best, are not without trauma. What many of you are now going through is the result of spiritual abuse. By God's grace, this too will pass. My wife and I were slow learners in not leaving Adventism many years earlier. However, as a result of these extra years of prayer and study, our theological anchor is firmly rooted in biblical Christianity. We feel richly blessed in no longer living in doubter's castle.

Praise God, SDA lies no longer grip our hearts. We have found the True Sabbath Rest. Soul sleep/conditonalism no longer frightens us. Consequently, with God's inerrant Word and His indwelling Spirit, we have absolutely no nostalgic feelings for false prophets either. It is my moral responsibility to expose the falsity of Seventh-day Adventism. I do not want others to have to endure the pain of spiritual abuse that I went through.

As a former insider, the least I can do is warn others from getting deceived by a cult. If this sounds like strong wordage, reread the words of Jesus to the Pharisees. Jesus did not talk like this most of the time; however, there is a right time to call sin by its real name. We are called to be uncompromising in our pursuit of exposing error. The tough words of Martin Luther were necessary to effectively reveal biblical truth. Should we be doing anything less?

Dennis J. Fischer
Flyinglady
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Username: Flyinglady

Post Number: 586
Registered: 3-2004
Posted on Friday, September 24, 2004 - 5:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dennis and Colleen,
God has give you two very good ways of expressing yourselves. I agree with the both of you.
I to, dislike it intensely that any people are caught in the deceit of adventism. All I can do is give that dislike to God. I know His will, will be done and that He is still in charge and is not willing that any should perish.
So I pray each of us does what God asks of us in letting SDAs know of God's love.
When Jesus come again we will see just how awesome He is and will see how He has answered our prayers.
Diana
Sabra
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Username: Sabra

Post Number: 197
Registered: 10-2001
Posted on Friday, September 24, 2004 - 6:00 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Valerie,

I read the living bible when I was a kid and Romans 14 is quite plain there isn't it? I remember reading it over and over and figuring I was missing something.

I'm so glad Jesus was working in my life way back then.

For the topic: Yes, I have been bitter towards them and I'm not now since I see how God worked it all out for good and to His Glory. I feel mostly pity for them, but then, sometimes, for some of them, I feel they knew and heard the gospel and rejected it and so it was their own free will decision.

I finally am figuring out that I am not responsible for any of them or for anyone outside of my immediate family. That is freeing and instead of searching out people to tell the truth to that don't want to hear it anyway I just wait on God and He sends me plenty that need to hear.

Prayer is about the only thing we can do unless God puts us in a situation to do something more.

I don't think any of us are so hard on them directly to them, this is just a place to sort it all out and we have the liberty to say what we really feel.

Thanks Colleen and Richard.

Susan_2
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Username: Susan_2

Post Number: 940
Registered: 11-2002
Posted on Saturday, September 25, 2004 - 2:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

My parents were some of the first ones to get "The White Lie". Having numerous kin in the SDA, The WCG, the Church of God (Seventh-day) and the Seventh Day Baptist I grew up knowing what a fraud egw was. At the same time I grew up attending SDA schools and religious services. Honestly, at age 11 and in the 5th grade I made up my mind when I grew up I would not go to my parents church. Throughout my life I experienced a series of miracles all leading me towards the Lutheran church. The bitterness or frustration I have with the SDA church is that it has such an emotional hold on many of its adhearants. Like I said, my family was some of the first ones to get the book, "The White Lie'

and it didn't phase them, they read it and they will tell everyone they know she's a fraud yet at the same time they still stay loyal to the denomination. My biggest emotional problems with the SDA church is 1: they tell and tell everyone how they so strongly promote freedom of religion yet this forum wouldn't be needed if that was true. If that was true then those of us on here would not be aving the problems with our SDA kin that we do. and, 2: they (the SDA denomination) have so many people believig that saklvation is through the SDA church that even people who denounce egw and any other SDA unique teachig still won't try going to a different church. That to me seems so cultic. I go to a website called, www.watchthetower.org. It is a website for former JW's. The stories on there are so similiar to the stories on here. Oh, the doctrines may be diffeent but the total controlis pretty much identical.
Cindy
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Username: Cindy

Post Number: 677
Registered: 7-2000
Posted on Tuesday, September 28, 2004 - 6:22 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dennis, I can relate to your comments about being a slow learner in not leaving Adventism years earlier! Still, like you said, those years were the ones God patiently used to keep drawing us closer to Him--showing us His sufficient and complete Rest--so that our "identity" no longer has its' reality in any organization...but only from and IN CHRIST!

I loved what you said about having absolutly no nostalgic feelings for false prophets either! :-)

grace always,
cindy
Colleentinker
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Username: Colleentinker

Post Number: 742
Registered: 12-2003
Posted on Tuesday, September 28, 2004 - 10:07 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I loved that sentence too, Dennis, about having absolutely no nostalgic feelings for false prophets. It's totally amazing to me how God transforms and redeems our past and creates something new and sacred out of the ashes.

Dennis, how is Sylvia doing now? I think of her and continue to pray for her.

Colleen
Flyinglady
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Username: Flyinglady

Post Number: 601
Registered: 3-2004
Posted on Tuesday, September 28, 2004 - 5:27 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yes Dennis, How is Sylvia??
Diana
Dennis
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Username: Dennis

Post Number: 177
Registered: 4-2000
Posted on Tuesday, September 28, 2004 - 6:04 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sylvia is on the mend. She is actually back to work already. She still gets daily antibiotic infusions at a local hospital on an outpatient basis. Thank you for your continued prayers in her behalf.

Dennis J. Fischer
Dane
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Username: Dane

Post Number: 41
Registered: 4-2004
Posted on Wednesday, September 29, 2004 - 12:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

My wife and I also struggled with a certain level of bitterness for several years after leaving. I think it was partially a response to the feeling of being betrayed throughout our lives, and partially by the reaction of some of the Adventists that we knew personally. It was as if we were suddenly unclean and untouchable.

Several factors helped us to leave the bitterness behind. One was the continued study and deepening understanding of our true freedom in Christ. Another was seeing the tragedy of some of our relatives who not only left SDA, but due to their continued bitterness and anger, left Christianity completely. This was a shock. It also helped us understand that it is critical to work through the bitterness asap.

I say it is critical because bitterness, like hatred, does the most damage to the one who holds onto it.

That being said, I would point out that I think that there is a correct place for what might be termed "rightous indignation". This goes along with what Dennis is saying about a "moral obligation to expose the falsity of SDA". This can be a positive response if handled with gloves of love. Also, as Dennis points out, sometimes you have to use "tough love".

As a side note, I know that sometimes I have allowed SDA relatives to walk over me in discussions, not because I didn't have an answer, but because I didn't want to cause family problems. I have slowly learned how to deal with this but it is always a touchy situation.
Dane
Vchowdhury1
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Username: Vchowdhury1

Post Number: 45
Registered: 7-2004
Posted on Wednesday, September 29, 2004 - 4:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dane, you're right. At first I was to the point where my sda relatives walked all over me in discussions. But thanks to this forum and numerous other research material which includes Biblical research on the new convenant, and info from Ellenwhite.org, I now can show them scripture and "quotes" from egw's "failed" prophecies to back up my points. I challenged them to come up with just ONE of her prophecies that has came true to this date. Just ONE. Anyone can say they can predict the FAR future (remember the world famous psychics Jean Dixon and Silvia Brown. Oh, by the way, Silvia Brown's record is better than that of EGW) Now sda people RUN from me. Believe it or not, so does my ex-pastor!I saw him over the weekend at a dinner my mom gave, and he avoided me like the "mumps". But I can tell that it was a "scared" kind of avoidance. Praise the Lord, that means I'm somehow making sense even though they don't want to listen. And, they have somehow, run out of arguments.
Susan_2
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Username: Susan_2

Post Number: 957
Registered: 11-2002
Posted on Wednesday, September 29, 2004 - 7:47 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Do any of you remember Miss Cleo? For some reason Miss Cleo and EGW strike me as being of the same ilk. Just something to think about. Did you all know that EGW predicted the great San Francisco earthquake AFTER IF HAPPEMED?! Now, how's that for prophecy? The SDA's say though that she had the prophecy actually before the earthquake but beause communication wasn't speedy and instant like it is now the poor victums of that horrible, devistating quake just didn't get her prophecy in time to get out of there. Dane, you post was very interesting. Valerie, you go girl!
Ric_b
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Username: Ric_b

Post Number: 45
Registered: 7-2004
Posted on Thursday, September 30, 2004 - 2:29 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dane,
You expressed well the sentiment that I tried to explain earlier. Exposing errors is not bitterness. Exposing errors doesn't make us popular with our intended audience. However, when we have much bitterness and it shows in our statements it can be a barrier to our ability to expose the very errors that caused our bitterness.

The "big myth" is that we all leave because we were hurt or upset somehow. Current SDAs don't want to acknowledge that someone could have left because of doctrinal differences. Our own bitterness can easily allow "currents" to conclude that our REAL reasons are because we were hurt, and confirm their own biases.

At the same time we all need a place where we can share the emotional turmoil of leaving SDAism. By sharing our experience here, including the hurt and bitterness, we can grow beyond these, have a healthier spiritual life and better witness our beliefs.
Colleentinker
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Username: Colleentinker

Post Number: 751
Registered: 12-2003
Posted on Thursday, September 30, 2004 - 8:50 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dane and Ric_b--you've both stated our collective exerience so well. That emotional turmoil you mentioned, Ric, is the part of our experience that the Christian community does not always understand. It's also the part of our experience which our Advetist friends and loved ones do not understand.

We've been told we left because we wanted an easy way out of having to observe the law--specifically Sabbath. Quite the contrary--it would have been much easier to stay and keep the Sabbath than to leave everything we knew for the sake of Biblical truth and Jesus. On the other hand, Christians we know who learned we left often say, "Really? Why did you leave? I have Advenitst neighbors, and they're such nice people. They believe in Jesus."

I'm finding that everything boils down to surrender. I have to surrender to God the feelings of being misunderstood on both sides of the fence. I have to surrender the instinct to defend myself. I have to surrender my words and reactions to Jesus on an ongoing basis. I have to remember that I belong to Him, and I'm not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, regardless of who misunderstands me.

It's certainly on ongoing process of growth and stretching!

Colleen
Ric_b
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Username: Ric_b

Post Number: 47
Registered: 7-2004
Posted on Thursday, September 30, 2004 - 4:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Colleen,
Well put (as always). I particularly find the accusation of wanting an easy way out of the Sabbath to be particularly insulting. It totally disregards the deep searching of both Scripture and my own emotions. It ignores my anguished prayers. It casts aside years of feeling isolated because I wasn't ready to leave and couldn't share what I was growing to believe. Easy? Hardly
Flyinglady
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Username: Flyinglady

Post Number: 609
Registered: 3-2004
Posted on Thursday, September 30, 2004 - 4:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

In Virginia I knew an SDA minister and his wife. I think he read my story on this website as it is not on any other. He wrote to me and told me he did not know I was so hurt, that he should have paid better attention when we were in VA or something to that effect.
I do not think that my story looks like I am hurting. I tried very hard to avoid that. Anyway I answered him and told him "Pastor, I have always been truthful with you and you know that. I am being truthful with you now and I am telling you I am not hurt. I was angry with the GC officials who have known for years about EGW and the deception they have pulled on all of us. I have turned that anger over to God." He has not answered me back.
And, yes, we do need a place to express all the turmoil in our minds as we leave the SDA church. To leave it alone there and not do anything about it is not good. It is giving rent free space to something that is not good for me. God does not want me to self destruct and giving rent free space to all that turmoil is self destructive and I am not into self destruction.
I, too, am on an ongoing process of growing and stretching and it is very liberating.
Diana
Sheryl
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Username: Sheryl

Post Number: 18
Registered: 5-2004
Posted on Tuesday, October 12, 2004 - 6:45 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I have struggled with feelings of sadness and loss, not so much bitterness, but feeling cheated of a proper relationship with Christ all those years. It was horrible to question whether I had salvation, and always the fear that I would never measure up to the investigative judgement, looking back now, that is a sad place to be. I would actually cry and be very depressed after church and never really knew why. The hurting is healing, it is so nice to find others who have been through the same experiences and similar feelings as me, and I thank God that I found the truth.

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