| Author | Message | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 37 Registered: 10-2004 |
Chris, I'm definitely more confused now. ;-) I have to stick with what the Bible has revealed to us, and believe it, even if I can't fully comprehend it. Could you please answer some straightforward questions about what you believe? 1. Did God die for our sins? 2. Does Jesus have a human body, soul, and spirit? If so, in addition to those, does He have a divine spirit or something? If He only has one body, one soul, one spirit then which of these is/are also divine? Is Jesus' body divine? Is His human spirit divine? This is how I see it: If nothing "divine" died, but only humanity died, then how could that save us from our sins anymore then any human dying for us? Acts 20:28 says that Jesus' blood was "God's" blood. Colossians 2:9 says "For in him [Christ] dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily." I see that as saying that His body is fully human and fully God/divine. Also His spirit is fully human and fully divine. In other words, HE is fully human and fully divine in every sense. John says "the Word became flesh." It doesn't say the Word fused with or united with flesh, or united with humanity. It says "became." I certainly don't believe that Jesus was not fully human and I certainly don't believe that Jesus was not fully God/fully divine. But it says "the Word became flesh" I have to take it as it reads. I don't think that Jesus "lost" any of His divinity just because He became flesh. Here's a web site which I think explains what I have believed, although I don't necessarily agree with everything on there: http://www.compusmart.ab.ca/rprince/Heresy2.htm Jeremy | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 800 Registered: 12-2003 |
Jeremy, I think that part of the confusion comes in our definition of "death". Chris touched on this above. When we think of death, we typically think of "ceasing to exist". Since leaving Adventism and beginning to think about and study this issue from a new paradigm, it's occured to me that death might not necessarily mean complete cessation. Physical death is obvious. The spirit/soul, however, does not cease to exist. It does become separated from the body, and that separation is a condition of death. We really have no real definitive answer about what happened to Christ's humanity/divinity at his death because this subject is veiled from all of us. Jesus died, and He was both 100% human and 100% God. Exactly how that looked we cannot know. I also really appreciated Grudem's explanation which Chris quoted above. I remember the first time I read it, I felt that the subject finally seemed cohesive although the details are not clear. I also see it meshing with the Chalcedonian definition. The problem we face is that Jesus' human/divine identity is a mystery to us. It just is not fully revealed. We know that it IS, but we really can't explain or understand HOW it is. We know that Jesus, the eternal God, died for us. We know that Jesus, a real human, died for us. Only God has the authority to take responsibility for His creatures' sins. Yet only a man could legitimately die for human sin. Jesus fulfilled both "roles", for want of a better word (although I know it's not a really good one!) Jesus' identity, his death, his resurrection by His own spirit--all of this is another paradox which we truly can't completely explain. For me, though, the idea that death might not be simply defined as ceasing to exist has helped. From an eternal, spiritual perspective --outside our three dimensions--I suspect these mysteries look different than they look to us. Colleen | ||
| 33ad Registered user Username: 33ad Post Number: 49 Registered: 10-2004 |
Well said Colleen. God Bless | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 438 Registered: 7-2003 |
Jeremy, I don't think I could provide you with a much better explanation than the ones by Grudem, Sproul, the Chalcedonian council, 33AD, and Colleen. This is not really an area of expertise for me and I'm really wanting to finish the thread I'm currently working on. However, I would suggest that you check out a good evangelical systematic theology which will explore all the texts relevent to Christ's nature. If you're interested in the dcotrine of Christ's nature from a historical perspective you might also want to check out "Early Christian Doctrine" by J.N.D. Kelly (this is the standard text on the development of Christian doctrine). Most church histories will also deal with the subject to some degree as well. I would also highly recommend The Christian Apologetics & Research Ministry at www.carm.org they have a wealth of information on classic Christian doctrine. A direct link to questions about Jesus is here: http://www.carm.org/questions_Jesus.htm Direct links to scripture realted to the hypostatic union of Jesus' two natures are here: http://www.carm.org/questions/God_change.htm http://www.carm.org/doctrine/2natures.htm Finally, a link to information on Jesus' death as it relates to His two natures is here: http://www.carm.org/doctrine/obj_Jesusdied.htm Hopefully, these resources will help you out. Chris | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 439 Registered: 7-2003 |
For the past several nights we have been exploring the biblical teaching that the Son, Jesus Christ, is God. I would just like to wrap up our study of this particular truth by reviewing what we learned from scripture. We have seen that: 1. The Bible has many explicit statements that come right out and say Jesus is God. 2. The Bible teaches the Jesus is YHWH. 3. The Bible teaches that Jesus has the titles of God. 4. The Bible teaches that Jesus receives the honors due to God alone. 5. The Bible teaches that Jesus does all the works of God. 6. The Bible teaches that Jesus has all the incommunicable attributes of God. 7. The Bible teaches that Jesus is the Son of God in the sense that He has the very nature of God and is equal to God. Given the many many texts and passages that teach that Jesus is God, we have no choice but to bend the knee before the clear teaching of scripture. Whatís more, because the Bible is so clear on this point, we can and must be very clear on it as well. This is truly an essential of the Christian faith, one that cannot be compromised. The question of who Jesus really is must be answered positively in order for us to understand all of scripture, the OT and the NT. Understanding that Jesus is the God of the entire Bible and is therefore fully able to fulfill all the scripture, to forgive us, and to save us brings great peace. Given the strength of the Biblical teaching on this truth I believe it is time to add it to our list of truths we have discovered in scripture: 1. There is only one God, YHWH, there are no others. 2. The Father, Son, and Spirit are eternally personally distinct. 3. a) The Father is God. 3. b) The Son, Jesus Christ is God. Next time we will begin to look at our last truth that must be examined from scripture: 3. c) The Holy Spirit is God. Chris | ||
| Speakeasy Registered user Username: Speakeasy Post Number: 161 Registered: 9-2002 |
Chris; I am still Studying your posts. But you keep saying that "The Father is G-d" many times and then you say "Jesus is G-d" There can not be 2 gods. For the LORD G-d is ONE and beside him there is no other. The Tenak is very clear that there is only one G-d. I just don't understand. What one saves me? Again I ask When I pray and ask for forgiveness or help. Am I praying to the G-d that Jesus did on the cross or am I praying to Jesus and NOT the G-d that Jesus was praying to? What person saves me? Remember I am not posting negative things on what you are saying. I am posting things in your going to fast and I am being left behind. I am still at the starting gate. Believing that there is only one G-d and no one beside him. NOBODY or thing or person is Beside him. And I am stuck at this point. speakeasy | ||
| Speakeasy Registered user Username: Speakeasy Post Number: 162 Registered: 9-2002 |
I didn't catch it on the bottom of your last post now you are saying that you are going to show that the Holy Spirit is G-d. Can I pray to the Holy Spirit and thank him for dying for me? Can I just go through the Holy Spirit and not G-d and be saved? Can I go throught the Holy Spirit and not Jesus to be saved? I Don't underdstand. What one saves me? What one saves me? I have three in your studyes that can save me. 1)G-d 2)Jesus 3)Holy Spirit But the Tenak says there is only ONE G-d and Besides him there is no other. G-d is saying only in him there is salvation and in any other there is NOT. Any help would be great. speakeasy | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 44 Registered: 10-2004 |
Speakeasy, As I said before: "Jesus said to him, 'I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me." (John 14:6 NASB.) We come to the Father through the Son's life, death, and resurrection, when the Spirit regenerates our spirits (the new birth/being born again). Jeremy | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 809 Registered: 12-2003 |
God the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are The One God. The whole triune God saves us. The Father sent His own Son to die; the Son took on humanity and died and rose again; the Holy Spirit gives us new birth. All three of these gifts comprise the essence of our salvation. We are saved by the almighty, indivisible, eternal God in three Persons. There is absolutely no reason we cannot pray to the Holy Spirit and thank Him for making our hearts alive, or ask him to minister to those we love, etc. Jesus told us we can directly address the Father. We also know Jesus mediates for us (as does the Holy Spirit), and we can thank Him for His sacrifice, for dying for us, etc. God is God. Speakeasy, it's not supposed to be completely clear to us. We are finite and three-dimensional. We are simply to know what the Bible teaches, accept it by faith, and then allow Him to reveal the truth of the Trinity to us as we act in obedient submission to the Bible's own teaching about this question. This is a question of faith, not of logic. With prayers for you, Colleen | ||
| Speakeasy Registered user Username: Speakeasy Post Number: 163 Registered: 9-2002 |
So G-d does not save me. I can not post what I am thinking or I would be called a blasphemer again. WOW! speakeasy | ||
| Speakeasy Registered user Username: Speakeasy Post Number: 164 Registered: 9-2002 |
I give up! | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 1013 Registered: 11-2002 |
Yes, you can pray to the Holy Spirit. I attend the Lutheran church and our priest often prays to the Holy Spirit and he encourages the congreation to do so also both in our private prayer time as well as in corperate worship. | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 440 Registered: 7-2003 |
Speakeasy, you and I have already agreed that the Bible clearly teaches there is only one God, YHWH, and there are no others. There are not many Gods, there are not three Gods, there is only ONE God, YHWH, there are no others. So obviously if scripture teaches there is only one God (something we both agree on), then there is only one God that saves us and one God that is worthy of our prayers and worship. That one God is YHWH. We don't need to go over this any further, because we both strongly believe that there can be only one God. What we're engaged in right now, is an effort to find out what else that one God, YHWH, has revealed about Himself in His Word, the Bible. YHWH, the only God, has revealed through scripture that He has always existed in relationship to Himself. He has always experienced love and communion. He has always existed in three personally distinct ways. He has eternally, simultaneously existed as Father, Son, and Spirit. The Father, Son, and Spirit are the one God YHWH. The one God YHWH is the Father, Son, and Spirit. Speakeasy, I don't want you to take my word for it. I hope that you will go back and study the sriptures I have provided. This is not about what I think. This is about what the Bible clearly teaches in literally dozens of passages (so many that it has taken us a couple of weeks to look at them all). As you study the scriptures I've provided, ask yourself these questions? 1) Does the Bible teach there is only one God (we have already agreed that it does). 2) Does the Bible teach that the Father is God? (from what I can tell from your postings you would agree with this as well) 3) Does the Bible teach that Jesus is God? (The Biblical evidence is overwhelming on this point. If the Bible teaches it then you have an obligation to accept it and honor Jesus as God) After I finish presenting scripture teaching that the Holy Spirit is God, we'll discuss the diferences between the terms "Being" and "person" as they apply to the one God that is YHWH. Consider this question: Isn't it just possible that an all-powerful, eternal God that transcends the boundaries of space and time, just might be capable of exisiting in three personally distinct ways? Even if you're not yet sure if it's true, ask yourself if it is at least possible. Even if you don't understand it, ask yourself if it's possible that YHWH might transcend your understanding. YHWH revealed these things about Himself for a reason. It is our duty to study theses truths and accept what the Bible teaches. Chris | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 441 Registered: 7-2003 |
So far we have seen that the Bible teaches: 1. There is only one God, YHWH, there are no others. 2. The Father, Son, and Spirit are personally distinct. 3. (a & B) The Father and Son are God (YHWH) Tonight we will examine truth #3 c) The Holy Spirit is God (YHWH). We will begin by looking at scripture that equates the Holy Spirit with God and that teaches that the Holy Spirit has the incommunicable attributes of God. THE HOLY SPIRIT IS EQUATED WITH GOD: 3 But Peter said, "Ananias, why, has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back some of the price of the land? 4 "While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not under your control? Why is it that you have conceived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God." Acts 5:3-4 (NASB) 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 2 Cor 3:17 (NASB) THE HOLY SPIRIT HAS THE INCOMMUNICABLE ATTRIBUTES OF GOD: HE IS ETERNAL- 14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? Heb 9:14 (NASB) HE IS OMNIPRESENT (everywhere) - 7 Where can I go from Your Spirit? Or where can I flee from Your presence? Psalms 139:7 (NASB) HE IS OMNISCIENT (all knowing) - 10 For to us God revealed them through the Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God. 1 Cor 2:10 (NASB) Tomorrow we will see that the Bible teaches that the Holy Spirit is involved in all the works of God. Chris | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 814 Registered: 12-2003 |
Chris, I hope you're saving your notes from this study. They are excellent. Would you mind sending them to us when you're done for us to post on the Studies page? Colleen | ||
| Speakeasy Registered user Username: Speakeasy Post Number: 165 Registered: 9-2002 |
Okay I am going to show my ignorance in asking you this in the open for all to see and rip me apart. Hopefully Not! Chris you have 3 gods ! 1) The Father is god. 2) The Son is god. 3) The Holy Spirit is god. There is only One G-d! What G-d do you except? speakeasy | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 536 Registered: 7-2003 |
All three together make up the one God. I don't know how it looks or how to explain it because the bible doesn't give us pictures, but the fact is the Bible teaches exactly what you note...the father is God, the son is God, and the Spirit is God. Together they make a whole. We accept all three as equal. Unified yet distinct. When you are able to see them as a whole, you will begin to comprehend the trinity...as much as any of us can. I know it isn't "logical' in the human mind, but that's what accepting the truth in the Bible is about.... We just can't completely comprehend the greatness and nature of our God. | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 443 Registered: 7-2003 |
Speakeasy, there is most certainly NOT, I say again NOT, three Gods. We have already agreed there is only ONE, I repeat again, ONE God. We can quit debating this because you and I both agree that the Bible teaches that there is only ONE God. That one single God, YHWH, eternally exist in three personally distinct ways. One Being exisiting as three persons. One "What", three "Whos". Speakeasy, rather than go back and forth over the same ground, please go back and review the scripture I posted, then answer this question directly: Does the scripture I posted teach that the Son, Jesus Christ, is God? Yes or No Speakeasy??? If scripture teaches that Jesus is God, then you only have two choices: a) reject scripture and thereby reject the Jesus it portrays OR b) accept it even if you don't fully understand Please interact with the Bible texts directly. Do they teach that Jesus is God or not? If they do, are you willing to bend the knee to the teaching of scripture? Chris | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 444 Registered: 7-2003 |
Colleen, I haven't been keeping notes, but I've considered going back and cutting and pasting some of these posts into a Word file so I could edit it down into one coherrent study. If I have enough energy when I'm finished I'll consider it :-) All joking aside, I'm feeling a bit run down, a bit mentally and spiritually tired. I could use your prayers. Chris | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 445 Registered: 7-2003 |
Last night, I posted scripture that equates the Holy Spirit with God and teaches that the Holy Spirit has the incommunicable attributes of God. Tonight, I will present scripture that teaches that THE HOLY SPIRIT IS INVOLVED IN ALL THE WORKS OF GOD. CREATION: 2 The earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters. Gen 1:2 (NASB) 30 You send forth Your Spirit, they are created; And You renew the face of the ground. Psalms 104:30 (NASB) INCARNATION: 18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was as follows: when His mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found to be with child, by the Holy Spirit. Matt 1:18 (NASB) 20 But when he had considered this, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, "Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife; for the Child who has been conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. Matt 1:20 (NASB) 35 The angel answered and said to her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy Child shall be called the Son of God. Luke 1:35 (NASB) RESURRECTION: 4 who was declared the Son of God with power by the resurrection from the dead, according to the Spirit of holiness, Jesus Christ our Lord, Romans 1:4 (NASB) 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you. Romans 8:11 (NASB) SALVATION: 1 Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. 3 For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot, please God. 9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. 10 If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you. 12 So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the fleshó 13 for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15 For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, "Abba! Father!" 16 The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him. 18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us. 19 For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together, until now. 23 And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body. 24 For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for who hopes for what he already sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, with perseverance we wait eagerly for it. 26 In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words; 27 and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. Romans 8:1-27 (NASB) Next time I will present scripture showing that the Holy Spirit is a person. Chris |
