| Author | Message | ||
| Doc Registered user Username: Doc Post Number: 127 Registered: 2-2003 |
Thanks Colleen, I am both a step-son and a step-dad, so I realise the difficulties. The kids are not really following God at the moment, which is a cause for sadness, and I am not near them either. I am in Hungary, Mum is in Northern England, my son is in Wales and daughter in Canada, so we really do not meet often. I guess I have to leave them with God, Adrian | ||
| Schasc Registered user Username: Schasc Post Number: 3 Registered: 10-2004 |
Hi Jeremy, I am a new member on this site that comes from an adventist background. I listened to the Doug Batchlor audio on "is it possible to lose ones salvation" and got a little confused by your comments. It seemed that he said that as long as we keep our eyes on Christ we dont need to worry about our falls and misteps. That doesnt seem like salvation by works to me. Isnt that what living by the spirit is all about? Keeping our eyes on Jesus? Sorry if I sound confused by this all............just trying to get all this straight in my own mind........ | ||
| Pheeki Registered user Username: Pheeki Post Number: 402 Registered: 1-2003 |
Trying to get it straight is right. That is the conundrum of SDAism...from one side of their mouth they preach R by F. and out of the other, they preach salvation by law keeping...Ask Doug B. about the Sabbath? Is he still saved if he gives up the Sabbath? For SDA's, Sabbath saves...it's like the 3rd Godhead...God, Jesus and the Sabbath. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 794 Registered: 12-2003 |
My question is, what exactly does Doug Batchlor mean when he says to "keep our eyes on Christ"? I realize my question may sound cynical, but that phrase meant something entirely different when I was an Adventist than it does now. As an Adventist, that phrase meant we keep remember Christ's example and choosing to "do the right" thing, praying for the Holy Spirit to strengthen us to keep the law. As a Christ-follower now, that phrase means when life is tough or tempting or chaotic or threatening, we surrender whatever the issue is to Jesus. Instead of praying for God to strengthen me to do (whatever the act), I now realize I must pray to trust Hiim and to give to Him the outcome of whatever situation is in front of me. Instead of "looking to Jesus" as an example, I now look to Jesus as the only One who can change my heart and cause me to trust Him with my desires, my sin, my emotional tugs toward self-indulgence of any kind. Here's an example of what I mean--it's kind of limited and even trivial, but it's current, and I've been struggling with it. We have two collies, Smokey and Rocky. Smokey is elderly; Rocky is four years old, and we only recently got him. He's gentle and HUGE and spirited and sweet. Two nights ago, our gate was pushed open during the night. We have absolutely no idea how it happened--it was pushed inward. Early yesterday AM Rocky got out and was hit by a car. He spent yesterday in the vet's office getting stabilized. the X-rays looked hopeful--no broken bones, no apparent pneumothorax, no apparent internal bleeding. But he had intense pain and labored breathing. (Are you counting the dollars in your head?--IVs, X-rays, steroid shots, pain killers--etc.) Last night he came home, but his breathing got worse. We'd been instructed to take him to the only all-night Vet clinic if anything happened, so we did. More X-ray's (showing new evidence of trauma--possibly pneumothorax developing) and some cardiac arrythmia, probably from a heart contusion. More IVs and morphine. By now we're becoming unsettled not only by our much-loved pet being injured, but we're increasingly agitated by the $$$$. This AM the all-night clinic closes for the day but won't release the dog to come home. He's still unstable enough that he needs observation and care. He's to go back to the "day vet". Although Rocky is much more alert and even jumped into the car on his own steam, he's still in critical condition. So here's our growing dilemma: how do we know when to stop spending $$$? And why did this happen? Maybe is wasn't God's will after all that we get this dog, although we prayed about it and both of us completely believed it was a good move. (We got him through an animal resuce organization.) So we've decided, with the vet's professional opinion as part of our decision, that if he continues to decompensate today, we will have him euthanized. But we are both struggling with the questions. Why would we just get a perfectly wonderful pet that immediately bonded with us and Smokey only to die because of a fluke accident? Why would we have to have spent this much money (which will impact us in other ways!) for a pet we might just lose anyway? And where did we fail in seeking God's will? Or did we? What is the purpose of all this? Both of us are struggling with our own questions and fears, not to mention the really deep sadness of the thought of losing our dog. I kept having the praise song "Blessed Be The Name of the Lord" going though my head this morning, and I finally turned to the book of Job and read Job's response after his animals and children all died. "Naked I came from my mother's womb, and naked I will depart. The Lord gave and the Lord has taken away; may the name of the Lord be praised." (Job 1:21) Now here's where I'm seeing the difference between my SDA version of "keeping my eyes on Jesus" and my growing understanding of what this phrase means. As an SDA I'd be praying and praying in anguish for God to heal my dog. (Oh, yes,--I've been doing that now, too!) But the thought that keeps pushing itself to the surface of my awareness is that I can't expect to figure out why this happened or to fret about its implications for us. I must instead ask God to help my heart to trust Him even if Rocky dies and we're out an uncomfortable, unbudgeted sum of money which kept growing as his condition developed. My response to this must be trust--trust that God will glorify Himself in my life and in my family's life even in this; trust that God loves all His creatures, even the collies(!); trust that He knows what we must face in order to realize what areas of our experience we must still surrender to Him; trust that he owns the cattle on a thousand hills, and He knows our needs before and even better than we do. I have to give up my "right" to "fix" this situation and to demand it turn out a certain way. I have to trust God to allow His sovereign will to be done. I have to allow Jesus to give my heart Sabbath rest even in the middle of my own feeling of sadness and fatigue and loss. This, Schasc, is how I see the difference between Batchelor's "Keep your eyes on Jesus" and the meaning those words have to me now. As an Adventist, that phrase meant continual struggle and prayer to do the right thing. Now it means even being willing to give up what I thought the "right thing" was in favor of surrendering myself and my life and my outcome to Jesus and trusting Him to work out the events in my life according to the purpose of His will. Yes, I even have to give up thinking I know what His will is. Batchelor would tell you what God's will is: keep the Sabbath, follow the "health message", etc. Jesus doesn't tell us anything except that we must trust, believe, and surrender. We have to allow Him to completely fill and identify us. Keeping my eyes on Jesus means allowing Him to fill my heart instead of my desire for Rocky to live dominating it. It means being willing to cry over my dog while simultaneously knowing God is keeping us even if this never makes sense. I'm so not "there" as I should be, but I do sense such a great depth of strength and comfort that I never felt as an Adventist desperately trying to keep my eyes on Jesus. Praising God for being Sovereign and for being our Provider, Colleen | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 1007 Registered: 11-2002 |
Welcome, Schasc, I am Susan. I am eagerally looking forward to learning about you and from you. I grew up SDA. I am now in my mid-50's. When a SDA says "to keep your focus on Jesus" they mean Jesus is our example. Jesus led a perfect, sinles life and He did not know if his salvation was secure until he actually got to haven 40 days after His resurrection. If Jesus could live a perfec sinless life since He was fully human just like us in every way then we also should be able to lead perfect sinless lives. No one in the SDA belief who is living during the 3 1/2 years prior to the second coming of Jesus will get eternal life if they have even one unconfessed sin on their blotter. I know the language I'm using sounds funny but those are SDA terms. They have their own language and the Chistian terms the SDA use has a different meaning to the SDA than the exact same words and terms do to regular Chrisians. A few words/terms that quickly come to mind are; grace, tribulation, remenant, 144,000, the law, heck, pick a term or phrase and chances are it will have a different meaning to a SDA than a Christian of a different mindset. This is how come it can be so hard conversing with SDA's. They say all the right things. You almost have to be toally ingraied in it to understand that the words/terms have a completely different meaning to the SDA than those words/terms really mean. One needs to be a SDA cryptologist is figure out the SDA code. | ||
| Vchowdhury1 Registered user Username: Vchowdhury1 Post Number: 55 Registered: 7-2004 |
Hi Susan, Boy, you sure brought back old memories when you mentioned Del Delker and the Kings Heralds! I had to laugh out loud! When I was growing up sda, sadly, this was the only music we were allowed to listen to. I couldn't even listen to gospel music because my mom would say that gospel was "to rockin' rollie".Wasn't that sad  So, those boring "conferance" albums such as Del Delker, The Kings Heralds, Whitney Phipps, Brenda Spraggins, etc, were the ONLY music we could "boogie down" to. Just out of curiousity, does anyone know if Del Delker is still alive? I know she must have been in her 50's or 60's when I was in High School, and that was some 30 years ago. --Valerie | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 29 Registered: 8-2004 |
She attended the 2000 GC Session in Toronto. I haven't heard that she's died since then, so I assume she's still alive. helovesme2 | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 28 Registered: 10-2004 |
I believe Del Delker is still alive. We have her 55th anniversary with VOP video. Lots of Adventist singers on it. It's very depressing. Schasc, If we are saved by "keeping our eyes on Christ" then that is salvation by our works. Also, as others have said that term in SDAism means "keeping the Law," etc. I'll listen to the clip again, and tell you exactly what problems I had with it. Ok, I'm listening to it now. 1. He refers to 2 Peter 2:22 talking about a pig after being washed returns to wallowing in the mire. That is a gross misuse of Scripture. That cannot refer to a person losing his or her salvation. When we are born again, we are new creatures. The old things have passed away, everything has become new. (See 2 Corinthians 5:17.) We are regenerated/born again of "imperishable" seed. (1 Peter 1:23) Therefore, we aren't the same creatures; we are no longer "dogs" or "pigs." If the person was still a "pig," then that means they were never saved/born again. 2. The caller said, "I know I'm not living up to God's expectations" and "the harder I try..." Batchelor replies, "Well, now I don't want you to hang up thinking that you cannot have a degree of assurance that God's gonna save you, IF [note: that emphasis on "if" is Batchelor's, not mine!] you continue [again, Batchelor's emphasis] to look at Jesus and walk after Him." Now that definitely means "keeping the commandments" etc. Salvation by works; salvation by Law-keeping! Also, he says "gonna save you"--sorry but it's past tense (see Ephesians 2:8-9). I've already been saved. I already have eternal life (1 John 5:13). I am already "in heavenly places" (Ephesians 2:6). I'm already there, it's not a goal! 3. When Batchelor quotes Hebrews 12, he reads "the author and finisher of our faith" real quickly, like he doesn't want us to think about what that means. That bothered me. 4. Batchelor puts us on a "road" to salvation. As I pointed out above, heaven is not a "goal" to attain. We're already there, according to Ephesians 2:6! We've already been saved, we already have eternal life. Batchelor says that we stay on this "road to salvation" as long as we "keep our eyes on Jesus" (which means keeping the Law) and "continue to return to Him every time" we fall down. Then he goes on to make it crystal clear that "falling down" (sinning) is the same as "taking your eyes off Jesus"! So "keeping your eyes on Jesus" has to mean "keeping the commandments." He says that if you sin, you lose your salvation [or not really lose your salvation since we don't have it to begin with according to him, but fall off "the road to salvation"], but if you repent God will forgive you and start you back on "the road" again. Even Batchelor talking about "losing" one's salvation is disingenuous, since he doesn't even believe that we have salvation to begin with, but are just on a "road" to salvation! Also, Batchelor talks about "grieving away the Holy Spirit" and I think in another clip refers to Ephesians 4:30. But Ephesians 4:30 does not say that we can "grieve away" the Holy Spirit; in fact it says the opposite! "And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption." We are sealed "unto the day of redemption"! We can grieve the Holy Spirit, but we cannot grieve Him "away"! As Susan said, it's very difficult to crack the SDA code. They say the same words, and use the same terms as Christians, but they don't mean the same things. Jeremy | ||
| Sheryl Registered user Username: Sheryl Post Number: 19 Registered: 5-2004 |
Oh my goodness, I was wondering if Del Delker was still alive. As kids, my brothers and I had to listen to Del Delker and the Kings Heralds, and the Voice of prophecy with HMS Richards Sr.! We even got to meet Joe Crews who did our evangelistic crusades, He was a nice man, but SDA through and through. I had to laugh at the mention of Del Delker, the music was so limited. | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 1009 Registered: 11-2002 |
O.K., HMS Richards, Sr. bapitized my mother. That is a bit if family sda history. Again, the above indicates my namid Doug Batchlor Doug Bothcler and renaiming Amazing Facts, Annoying Fiction. | ||
| Pheeki Registered user Username: Pheeki Post Number: 403 Registered: 1-2003 |
You know, I was thinking about the SDA's and how they think the Old and New Covenants are the same and how people before Christ were saved in the same way, etc. But what they forget is, the Holy Spirit wasn't given until Pentecost. They almost totally ignore that the Holy Spirit is the reason we don't have to "remember" the stoney Laws...we have the mind/Spirit of God within us. I think they totally discount the gift of the Holy Spirit, which also ties into their misunderstanding of the state of the dead. Before the Holy Sprit came, I do believe people slept but after Christ rose and the firstfruits with him, things changed. You cannot kill the Spirit of God. | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 1010 Registered: 11-2002 |
Have any of you on here besides me and Jeremy ever read the posts on those SDA discussion boards? Jeremy, I just read your post where you told that fellow you wouldn't be posting anymore and yes, definately 100% yes, he did say that satan will ultimately pay the price for our sins. In another post a SDA person on the post about eating meat says when EGW spoke it really was Jesus speaking through EGW. Isn't that called clarovoince, or something like that? Astral projection? I don't remember but it involves getting into a rhelm of the spirit world that we are not to mess with. Like conguring up the dead with a crystal ball. So, EGW to SDA's did not speek, it was really Jesus channelling His divine words through her? I'll tell you, I think those SDA disciussion sites are demon possessed. I am going to delete them from my system today. | ||
| Pheeki Registered user Username: Pheeki Post Number: 404 Registered: 1-2003 |
What site is this? | ||
| Dd Registered user Username: Dd Post Number: 162 Registered: 7-2004 |
Colleen, I am so sorry about your sorrow and stress with your beloved Rocky. Pets are such a blessing and gift of unconditional love. As I was reading your story of love and trauma (and the beautiful message of keeping our eyes upon Jesus) it dawned on me that Rocky's trauma is an example of seeing God's purpose which is always so incomprehensible to us. I believe part of keeping our eyes on Jesus is having the trust and faith that what we see today as a trial will ultimately become the "eternal fruit" of our lives tomorrow. The story of Rocky touched me - which has to be a purpose of God. Thank you for sharing. You and Richard are in my prayers, along with Rocky, that you may have peace through the purpose God has in store for all of you. | ||
| Esther Registered user Username: Esther Post Number: 72 Registered: 5-2004 |
Colleen, I was just catching up on some posts I had missed, and saw that your post about Rocky. Animals are my biggest weakness, and I teared up as I read. I hope that something has been resolved. That Rocky has recuperated, or that somehow you have reached peace. I am sending a prayer your family's way. | ||
| Cindy Registered user Username: Cindy Post Number: 698 Registered: 7-2000 |
Colleen, I'm also just catching up on posts... How is Rocky? Your story above was definitely not "trivial", but very true and perceptive on the agonizing decisions and thoughts involved in really TRUSTING GOD in everything! Like Esther, animals are a really important part of my life, also. (I worked in an Emergency Vet hospital for a few years, dealt with many hit-by-car dogs and cats...always heart-wrenching.) Praying for you... grace always, cindy | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 807 Registered: 12-2003 |
Thank you, Dd, Esther, and Cindy. By the end of Tuesday it was clear that Rocky was developing a significant pneumothorax, and the next step would have been a specialty clinic with chest tubes and major surgery. Add to that the fact that collies (for some strange reason) tend to be more passive and less determined to fight when they are injured or ill (and the fact that we just didn't have money!), we had him put to sleep. It was quite a trauma for all of us--I think, perhaps, especially me this time--because he was my walking buddy, and he and was always so responsive and obedient to the slightest communication. It's been a pretty teary 36 hours for me! Thank you for your thoughts and prayers. Even though this all seems completely senseless, still we know God is merciful and present. A remarkable detail that came from this event was that our vet was not in at the time of the accident on Monday, and we had to take Rocky to another clinic. On Tuesday, after his night in the emergency clinic, we had to take him back for further evaluation and supervision. That evening when we went to sign the papers and say good-bye to him, the vet who had been caring for him talked really compassionately to us, and when we left, he waived all fees for the day. Those fees would have included an EKG, chest x-rays, pain meds, food, and kennel space, the euthanasia fee, and the disposal fee. He waived it all. Praise God for his reassurances even when we're hurting. Colleen | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 1012 Registered: 11-2002 |
Pheeki, That weird sda forum is at: http://www.online-adventst.org/----They are really spun on that site. I was reading the entries several days ago and one person was referring to EGW and said the words from EGW are the words of Jesus Himself. There are several on there that are a voice of reason, Jeremy being one of them. Also, from that site you can log onto other SDA discssion forums, including the one called remenant.org. The remenant.org posters then to be real loonies. If you go to the first one I mentioned you can log on to the topic "Meat eating". Some of those folks actually believe a strip of bacon or a trukey on rye determins their salvation. I wish I had the courage to inform the father of my grandchildren (That is my son, not the in-law. In this situtation she is the voice of reason.) what a bunch of fanatics the SDA church is full of. I've about come to the conclusion to simply be a moderate SDA is to be fanatic and then the fanaticism extends out into the neither-world of totally spun. I've about come to the conclusion as there is no such thing as a reasonable and moderate SDA. I have gone over and over this in my mind and the only thing I can come up with is that he loves his grandparents so much that he must honestly believe that if his grandma and grandpa were/are SDA then it must be the right religion. You know the song, "Give Me That Oldtime Religion", well, sometimes that oldtime religion just might be wrong. But, I honestly do believe he's so pro-SDA because of love anddevotion to his grandparents. I think the term "Seventh-day Adventist Christian" is an oxymoron. I don't mean that in referance to the individuals but rather as the SDA part of it in reference to the organization. | ||
| Dd Registered user Username: Dd Post Number: 164 Registered: 7-2004 |
Oh Colleen, Is our God Unimaginable or what? He knows your financial needs (or lack thereof) and has not left you in want. Even in this particular storm, He walks with you through the dark valley. I have faith that the day lies ahead for you when God will reveal how the last few days were not as completely senseless as it seems. Thanks, once again, for sharing a story that brings our focus on our One and Only, All-Powerful Hope. | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 1014 Registered: 11-2002 |
Dear Colleen and Richard, I just came from the post office. I mail you a sympothy card. It conveys my feelings in this time of your great sorrow than I can relate on this fourm. Susan |
