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Jeannette
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Username: Jeannette
Post Number: 59
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, October 23, 2004 - 6:27 am: |     |
This is an honest question, I am a bit confused. Does prayer change God and what God does for us or is prayer a way for us to connect with God?
I remember one SS class in which they said that prayer is just a means for us mortal to establish a relationship with God but that God is unchangeable. I was reading Gregg Taylor's article in Proclamation and he mentions a lady who would be woken up in the middle of the night by the Holy Spirit and impressed to pray for Gregg. Do our prayers really change wether God intervenes in our lifes or not. I know Jesus councils us to pray and He said that wherever two or more are together and pray in his name it will be done. I am still trying to clean the cobwebs in my head.
Jeannette |
Flyinglady
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Username: Flyinglady
Post Number: 670
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, October 23, 2004 - 8:16 am: | |
For me, prayer is the way to connect with God, to develop my relationship with him, to communicate with him. He is my best friend and I talk to him all the time. The way I see it is that God will intervene in our lives, but when others pray for us it strengthens their belief in God. On the thread "A Prayer Chain" I have put many verses about prayer. I cannot remember all of them right now. Through prayer I have learned in many ways how awesome God is.
Diana |
Colleentinker
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Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 842
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, October 23, 2004 - 9:37 pm: | |
I agree with Diana above. I also think that prayer somehow becomes part of the unseen spiritual warfare that rages around us. I really can't explain how--we aren't told. Somehow, though, when we praise God and ask for His intervention in situations, it somehow has an effect on how "comfortable" or active evil can be because we are inviting the presence of God into the situation.
We've talked here before about the effect of praise and worship music on us when we feel depressed, harrassed, cranky, etc., and we've talked about how it seems Satan is uncomfortable being in the presence of praise to God. I suspect prayer somehow has a similar effect--although I can't explain it or prove it.
I remember an instense situation I was in a few years ago. Someone I knew well was in a critical discussion that would determine the circumstances of several people for several years to come. It was a situation where some of the parties involved were believers in Christ, and some were not. I knew that some of the people involved would not tell the truth.
I was not involved in the disucssion, but I knew when it was happening, and during the last 45 minutes of the discussion I was overwhelmed with the conviction that I had to intercede and not stop. I didn't even really know what to pray, so I began to pray that the Holy Spirit would be present and that truth would be known and evil thwarted. The praying was very intense, and I would find myself wearying and becoming distracted, but I would find myself brought back with a start to intercede some more.
Later, the person I knew well who was involved in the discussion told me that for the first time their point of view was actually heard. Then they told me this: Those involved would be very aware, responsive, and receptive, and then sometimes they would begin to lose eye contact and start discounting what my friend was saying. Then, suddenly, they were completely aware again, making eye contact, responding, and positive. The conversation ended with my friend's viewpoint being heard, accepted, and actually influencing the decision. During the first part of the meeting, before I began to pray, my friend's statements were being ignored and discounted.
I realized that the ebb and flow of the receptiveness of my friend's point of view corresponded to my fatigue and drifitng away from praying.
That event was perhaps the most dramatic experience I've had with intercession because I actually learned the outcome, and it changed when I responded to the powerful urge to pray for the discussion. I think sometimes we don't know the outcome of our intercession--sometimes for years, sometimes not until eternity. But I've become convinced that when we have the urge or the conviction that we need to pray for someone, we can assume that the prompt is coming from the Holy Spirit, and we are being asked to participate in God's work in a very specific, powerful way.
I can't explain it; I just know we are commanded to give thanks and to pray, and God works through our prayers in ways we cannot explain.
Colleen |
Dane
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Username: Dane
Post Number: 59
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Monday, October 25, 2004 - 8:28 pm: | |
Jeannette has asked a question that touches so many areas of the Christians spiritual life. It is the same question that I'm sure many of us have asked. Here is the way I view it at this point in my growth.
First of all we need to always remember that God is absolutely sovreign. I think that implicit in this is that He does not need anyone or anything outside of Himself. Whatever He wills is the absolute last word. Nothing I can say or do can change His will unless He chooses to. (someone needs to remind Ken Copeland and his buddies)
Based on my view of His sovreignty I believe that prayer is mainly a vehicle for us to communicate, relate, praise, and plead our case.
It is not a tool for manipulating Him (and I'm not suggesting that anyone here is doing so).
Often when I pray I use certain passages of Scripture, especially the Psalms, to enhance my prayer. I find that this helps me to focus.
I don't want to sound "mystical" but let me something very personal regarding what occasionally happens when I pray.
I often try to focus on certain attributes of God in my prayers. And sometimes when I'm intensely focused I just stop speaking and perhaps even cease active thought, and it seems that I am overwhelmed with a very near sense of His presence and majesty, almost as if I am catching a glimpse into heaven. I don't hear voices,language is not a part of it, but at those times I believe that He is communicating to me. No specific messages, but an incredible peace. I know that I grow in understanding through these experiences.
Several years ago I became aware that some Christians of several hundred years ago made a
practice of writing their prayers. George Washington is an example. They generally followed a formula that I have tried to emulate.
The prayer would begin with a lengthy focus upon God as Creator, Sustainer, and Savior. Secondly would be a season of thanksgiving. This would be followed by a time of humility and confession. Lastly would come intercession and petition.
I've been using this formula now for several years and my prayer life has greatly benefited.
Colleen, your post above contains such an uplifting story. It is certainly scriptural to pray for each other. We are commanded to do it.
In cases like these, we still are left with the question; does God need our prayer in order to do things? I think not. I think perhaps that He uses our prayers of intercession to stregthen our faith and the faith of those around when we see the response that He already had planned.
Just some thoughts.
Dane |
Melissa
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Username: Melissa
Post Number: 546
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 26, 2004 - 6:50 am: | |
I also think he changes our hearts during prayer. Sometimes when praying, priorities and correct focus seem to just make sense and things I had previously thought so important may not be quite so high on the list now. I also used to write my prayers. It is amazing to read the words and imagine it was me writing it. It's almost like evidence the Spirit prays for us and through us because I can't imagine some of the things I've written.
There are some verses that, when taken out of context, seems to make it sound as though God is a vending machine...and that if you put in the right coins and press the right buttons you will get your heart's desire. But I think that is out of context with scripture. It's like any relationship really. If you care for someone and talk with them and maybe you really want something, but after talking with them get a clearer idea on why what you want isn't perhaps best or right. Or there are other times you don't know why you are prompted to pray. But there is a definite theme in scripture about asking. I ask for my daughter to be healed on a regular basis, but I have also recognized the sovereignty of God to not heal her.
I never feel I've prayed enough or adequately about a topic or situation. But I do try to start my day with something and end it the same way. It took me a long time to realize that just because I didn't see anything didn't mean nothing happened or that God ignored my prayer. It's a maturing process and faith growth process to learn God's voice.
As far as God being "unchangeable", it seems to me God was pretty determined to wipe out the Hebrews in the time of Moses, but Moses prayed and God spared them. It sure seems God was seriously angry with them, so it seems evident that God changed his course of action because of Moses prayers. But who God is didn't change just because he changed a course of action. Any more than who God is hasn't changed by fulfilling a holy day. Unless God IS a holy day, changing it, removing it, fulfilling it is NOT changing God. Okay, off the topic a bit.
Those are some of the experiences I've had through time. I'm sure they'll grow as i grow. Thanks to the others for sharing your experiences. It encourages me to see God answering prayers in the lives of his people. |
Susan_2
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Username: Susan_2
Post Number: 1044
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 26, 2004 - 8:14 am: | |
I have always wondered about prayer. As a kid I had the impression that prayer was a popularity contest with God. I believe it was presented to me in this way by the SDA teachers both in SS and at the day school. I remember very distinctly at SDA camp meeting hearing a sermon in the youth tent on prayer. The SDA preacher said we were to always remember to end our prayers with, "Thy will be done". And, then he very forcefully pounded it into us kids (teenagers, actually) that whatever we demand of God WE WILL receive. And, then he told us this story which he insisted was true to prove his point. A lady had one son whom she loved greatly. The son became extremely ill and was not expected to live. He was a very good man. Went to SDA church each Sabbath, shared the truth of the Sabbath with everyone who would listen, brought lots of peole into the truth (sda), etc. The lady prayed for her sons recovery but he only got more sick. So she demanded God to heal her son, to restore his health. Very quickly her son was completely well. He became a Sabbath-breaker, an armed robber and a murderer, thus throwing away his eternal salvation. The poor dear broken-hearted mother always had the guilt of knowing it was her demands on God that caused her son to loose his eternal salvation. This is the only sermon growing up SDA I can remember about prayer. In fact, just last week I was on the phone with a friend, also a former SDA and she brought up that story. It made her afriad to pray for a long time. And, to those of you reading this who have never been much involved in SDA'ism, this is definately what we were taught. So, it is just now that I'm learning prayer in a true and noble and good way. My fifth grade teacher at the SDA school made us pray out loud for causes and people that she thought were necessary. For people us kids had no idea who they were. If we didn't want to then she'd keep us in at recess and read EGW junk to us. It was awful. I so know I feel better emotionally, physically and spiritually if I pray with a thankful heart and ask for blessings to those who have done me wrong, etc. If I ask God to send a mugger with a baseball bat onto someone and ask God that the mugger breaks out the persons knees and that the mugger never gets caught I feel like crap. So, I stopped that prayer. Prayer affects my emotional state very much. Awhile back I told my sons friend I wish God would strike my husband dead. The young man looked at me and he said, "Whatta ya think? That God's your personal hit man? Get over it. He ain't". So, I thought about what he said and I have truly found that I feel better in every way if I pray for goodness to come upon those who have done me wrong. What the saying? I'm still a work in progress. I think that's the saying and it's true. BTW, the story I told aboue was at the time even in our church paper, The Youth Instrector or the Junior Guide. |
Raven
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Username: Raven
Post Number: 65
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 26, 2004 - 11:21 am: | |
Yes, I definitely remember that story, too, Susan! Either it was reprinted in Guide, or maybe I heard it when I was very young from my older siblings' Guide.
I think another idea I've heard promoted about prayer among SDA's, is that if you don't pray to God every day and ask for protection, you might not have it when you need it. I recall several years ago when our daughters were preschoolers, that a 3 year old girl they were babysat with was in a horrible accident and died a day or so later at the hospital. That very next Sabbath for the children's story given by the pastor's wife (who truly had no way of knowing about this tragedy!), told a story about a family who faithfully prayed every day for God's protection. Then one day there was a danger their child was protected from by their guardian angel. It was greatly stressed that if they hadn't been praying for that protection, it probably would have been a disaster. I remember being very angry at the time and thinking "well what about that poor girl that just died? Maybe her mom didn't pray for protection that day!" In fact, the mom is mentally retarded anyway, so I would think she would need extra special care. It bothered me that a story would be presented in that way, when I know there are examples everywhere of tragedies where God didn't appear to intervene. Did this pastor's wife expect these kids to think "oh, I guess they didn't pray for God's protection!" Or what if they did pray and a tragedy still happens, then they really got let down. |
Helovesme2
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Username: Helovesme2
Post Number: 35
Registered: 8-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 26, 2004 - 11:35 am: | |
I've heard the story of Hezekiah too, used in this way. He prayed for more life, and was given it, then when the Babylonian visiters came he showed off his riches and that's why Israel was taken off to Babylon not long after. . .
I think this gets back to the heart of the question asked earlier - how do our prayers affect life? Is God's will still done? Are our lives in our hands or His? I don't understand all of how it works out but I do know that God is still the ruler over everything, and He is trustworthy! He's still working things out 'according to the purpose of His will'.
Helovesme2 |
Colleentinker
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Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 854
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 26, 2004 - 12:15 pm: | |
I also remember that abominable story, Susan and Raven.
Susan, your saying you wished God would strike your husband dead reminds me of many times in my life when I had similar thoughts about various people. If God would just remove them...
I've finally concluded that God isn't in the business of removing us from our (very real) problems. Rather, He's in the business of walking through them with us and teaching us to be truthful and to act with integrity, even if that means great stress and pain.
Dane, I understand your silent intensity and awareness of God's presence. It's amazing that He will communicate with us creatures so powerfully and intimately.
Melissa, the point you bring up about Moses and God and the Israelites addresses the issue I've pondered. While I can't explain the "function" of intercessory prayer, I do believe there's an element of obedience involved. God, of course, can and will accomplish His purposes even without us. But sometimes He asks us to participate in His work through prayer. Our obedience to His promptings does draw us closer to His heart and purposes. In some way our prayers do affect circumstances, but I don't believe they change God, as you said.
It seems there's another paradox here--I know God is sovereign, but we're also commanded to pray.
Colleen |
Susan_2
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Username: Susan_2
Post Number: 1045
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 26, 2004 - 12:30 pm: | |
I will share with you a story of a conversation between me and my JW sister-in-law. I'd seen her many times praying, usually before eating, so I knew she prayed. So one day she asked me how a certain person we both knew was doing. I told her of this persons problems and health problems and then I said, "Please, keep him and his special needs in your prayers." This JW sister-in-law of mine right away said to me, "Oh, no. I can't do that. I am a follower of Jehovah and I will not ask Jehovah's blessings upon those of satan." I was really dumbfounded and taken aback. Generally I would avoid all conversation having anything to do in any stretch of the immagination with anything of a religious matter with her. But, this time I let loose. I told her there is a lot in the Bible about prayer. That in th Psalms we read a lot of prayers and a lot about praying. I told her Jesus taught us to pray the Our Father as the example of a perfect prayer. I told her Jesus spent much time in prayer, even 40 days and nights in intense prayer. I mentioned other Bibical references about prayer. I told her Jesus told us to even pray for our enemies. At that point she told me everyone who is not JW is an enemy of Jehovah and followers of Jehovah (JW's) will pray for certain people to become part of the truth in Jehovah's organization. Only after a person has become a member of the JW organization will a follower of the truth (JW) ask Jehovah for intercession on behalf of another person. Oh, that is so warped. I felt like throwing up whn she told me that. The JW is one super sick organization. However, knowing the commanality in the early history of JW and SDA and having read where EGW says she will not pray for those uworethy of her prayers I have just decided the two organizations are really quite similiar in a lot of ways. It's just that the SDA trys to be more subtle. |
Vchowdhury1
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Username: Vchowdhury1
Post Number: 61
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 26, 2004 - 1:56 pm: | |
Susan, In hearing your story, I feel really sorry for your JW sister-in-law. In fact, the more I read and understand the scriptures, the greater sadness I have for all JW's, LDS, and SDA's. Sometimes I feel like crying because they are sooooo deceived. Unfortunately, this includes the friends and relatives I know that are still SDA. And whats very sad is that you can't even talk to these people. You can show them facts from the Bible that prove that they are totally wrong and that their beliefs are un-biblical, without basis, and even demonic and they still won't believe you. They'll only believe if it comes from one of their own so-called "prophets". I've even shown an sda friend a scripture that proves that a certain believe she had was un-biblical. And she remarked "Well, thats only your interpretation". Huh!!! I don't get it. Everything that they WANT to believe and take literally in the Bible is straightforth and needs no interpretation like "Remember the Sabbath-Day, etc., etc.,", or "Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse...etc., etc.," But show them Romans 14: regarding not critisizing another christian for their choice of worship day or for what they eat...all of a sudden "thats just my interpretation". Go figure.
--Valerie |
Sabra
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Username: Sabra
Post Number: 236
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 26, 2004 - 3:48 pm: | |
We have not because we ask not.
I think prayer changes a lot. I do believe that our prayer changes the outcome of a lot of situations.
The fervant prayer of a righteous man availeth much.
Jesus prayed for Peter, who knows, he could have turned out like Judas?
Moses asked God not to destroy the children of Israel---what if He had? No Messiah??
Now, all that being said, God DOES know what we are going to pray for before we do, but then He knows if we aren't going to pray for it, so our choice to commit to prayer somewhere along the line could have turned the entire fate of destiny!
It's a miracle! It's so BIG! How many times have you heard of someone being woken up in the middle of the night to pray for someone else and that person being saved from death? What if we don't listen?
Since we are the body of Christ on earth, we are His means of working on this earth. We are in Him and He is us, so we are together in this fight.
Daniel's prayer was hindered for 21 days by the powers and principalities of wickedness! How weird is that? Evil was actually delaying his prayer reaching heaven or getting back to him.
Like I said, it's BIG, it's HUGE.
Hurts my little head. |
Jeremy
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Username: Jeremy
Post Number: 53
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 26, 2004 - 4:11 pm: | |
Susan,
EGW was actually worse than the JWs. She told her followers in 1851 that they shouldn't pray for the wicked at all (even to join "The Truth"!), because they could not be benefited by their prayers anymore, since the "door" had been "shut."
Also, in her later writings, she wrote that SDAs should not even pray for sick people who were SDA, if they had been withholding tithes or had made trouble in the church!
"We should first find out if the sick one has been withholding tithes or has made trouble in the church." (Healthful Living, page 237, paragraph 4.)
She also wrote:
quote:"I had resolved not to engage in prayer for anyone unless the Spirit of the Lord should dictate in the matter. I had been shown that there was so much iniquity abounding, even among professed Sabbathkeepers, that I did not wish to unite in prayer for those of whose history I had no knowledge." (Testimonies for the Church, Volume Two, page 349 paragraph 3.)
Jeremy |
Flyinglady
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Username: Flyinglady
Post Number: 682
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 26, 2004 - 5:49 pm: | |
Thank God we do not have to follow EGW any more. We can pray for whom ever we want to pray because God tells us in Numbers that we can sin by not praying for others. In the NT He tells us that He is not willing that any should perish. So, I keep on praying. If nothing else, it keeps me in communion with my Saviour. Prayer changes my attitude and thoughts and brings me closer to my God. By praying for others it helps keep me close to God. Jesus is all I need and He is awesome.
Diana |
Colleentinker
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Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 861
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 27, 2004 - 10:38 am: | |
Furthermore, Jesus told us to pray for our enemies and to bless those who curse us. It's more and more astonishing that we as Adventists ever revered or even tolerated that woman. She was anti-Christian--certainly, at the very least, she was double-minded.
Praise God for removing the veil!
Colleen |
Dd
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Username: Dd
Post Number: 173
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 27, 2004 - 1:19 pm: | |
You are right, Colleen. It is so very, very astonishing that she can be considered a "normal" human being let alone a "Christian"! The woman had to be bi-polar! The pit in my stomach makes me feel nausated when I think how much and how long I was fooled!
Praise God He doesn't judge me according to EGW standards!
GIVE ME JESUS!! |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 866
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 27, 2004 - 4:20 pm: | |
Dd--I'm laughing again! Bi-polar--how appropriate! (I'm quite convinced that serious abuse that's not dealt with produces bi-polar-like symptoms--I still think Ellen came from an abusive background and married a manipulative husband. She just learned how to manipulate and control right back. Just my armchair opinion!)
Wow--talk about living in a dysfunctional system created by a few people's serious pathology from whatever cause! There's nothing like calling one's psychotic view of life truth and forcing others to live by it, is there?
Praise Jesus for bringing us to Himself and showing us reality!
Colleen |
Flyinglady
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Username: Flyinglady
Post Number: 684
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 27, 2004 - 4:42 pm: | |
What I have learned is that dysfunction attracts dysfunction. I have seen it so many times, in myself, before I got into a 12 step program and in other people.
So, Like Colleen, I say Praise Jesus for bringing us to Himself and showing us reality. He is surely awesome.
Diana |
33ad
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Username: 33ad
Post Number: 77
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, October 28, 2004 - 5:41 am: | |
Hi all Forum Friends,
Prayer is more powerful than any of us realize. Helovesme2 and Sabra have rightly pointed out that fervent intercessionary prayer can influence outcomes to situations. The sacred scriptures present many examples of spiritual closeness, or "audacity," of the saints with God. For example, Abraham asks God to have mercy on the citizens of Sodom and Gomorra, and God was willing to fulfill his request, if there were at least 10 righteous persons found there. Another time God rescinded his punishment of Abimelech, king of Gerar, by the prayers of Abraham (Gen. Chap. 18, Gen. Chap. 20). The Bible relates, that God spoke with the Prophet Moses face to face, "as a man speaketh unto his friend." When Miriam, the sister of Moses, sinned and was punished with leprosy, Moses attained forgiveness for her from the Lord through prayer (Ex. 33:11; Numbers Chap. 12). Other examples can also be presented about the particular strength of the prayers of Godís servants.
Itís so wonderful to have many Christian friends who willingly pray for us when we ask them to. (The Prayer Requests thread on this forum attests to that.) But since we have been freed from the ěSoul Sleepî dogma of SDAism, Iíd like to introduce a dimension to prayer that not even most Protestants would consider. Please bear with me on this. Iím Orthodox now, and I think they have some things that all Christians can benefit from. Please keep an open mind on this, although Iíd not be offended if you disagree.
Iíll briefly outline the Orthodox teaching concerning this. Orthodox reverence of the departed servants of God comes from the conviction that all of us, those seeking salvation or those already saved, living and dead, form A SINGLE FAMILY OF GOD. The Church is a great society, encompassing the visible and invisible world. It is a huge, universal organization, built on the principle of love, in which each member must care not only about himself, but the well-being and salvation of others. The Church includes those who now live on earth and who have been baptized into the church, and is called the MILITANT church; but the Church also includes all of those who lived a Christ centred life and who are now in Heaven, known as THE TRIUMPHANT church.
We orthodox believe that, when a righteous person dies, he does not sever his ties with the Church, but crosses over to its higher, heavenly domain ó into THE CHURCH TRIUMPHANT. Once in the spiritual world, the soul of the righteous person does not stop thinking, wanting, feeling. Just the opposite, these characteristics are revealed more fully and completely. The Apostle Paul wrote to newly-converted Christians: "But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect" (Heb. 12:22-23). In other words, you, by becoming Christians, have joined a great family and come into close contact with the heavenly world and with the righteous who are found therein. The parting words of the Apostle Peter ó "Moreover I will endeavor that ye may be able after my decease to have these things always in remembrance" (2 Peter 1:15) ó clearly attest to the fact that he promises to continue to care about them from that spiritual world.
Continued NextÖ. |
33ad
Registered user
Username: 33ad
Post Number: 78
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, October 28, 2004 - 5:43 am: | |
ContinuationÖ..
Some people find it difficult to understand why it is necessary to ěprayî to the saints when there is Christ. Yet the saints are NOT mediators between us and Christ: rather, they are our heavenly friends, able to hear us and help us through their prayers. The heavenly saints themselves never overshadow God and donít detract from the need to turn to Him as the Heavenly Father. Someone who has no friends in heaven cannot properly understand this reverential veneration of the saints in the Orthodox Church. Christian communities which have no direct and living communion with the saints, cannot fully experience the completeness of the Church as the mystical Body of Christ uniting the living and the dead, saints and sinners.
And being in Heaven, they are more capable of knowing what is happening on earth and hearing those who call to them, since the saints in Heaven are "equal to the angels" (Acts 5:3; 4 [2] Kings Chapter 4; 4 [2] Kings 6:12; Luke 20:36). From the parable of Jesus about the rich man and Lazarus we find out, that Abraham, being in Heaven, could hear the cry of the rich man, suffering in hell, the "great gulf" dividing them notwithstanding. The words of Abraham: your brothers have Moses and the prophets, let them hear them ó clearly show that Abraham knows the life of the Hebrew nation, occurring after his death, knows of Moses and his law, about the prophets and their writings.
The nearness of the saints to Godís throne and the power of their prayers for the faithful existing on the earth, is obvious from the book of Revelation, in which the Apostle John writes: "And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands." Later he describes the vision of the righteous in Heaven, praying for the people suffering on earth: "And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne. And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angelís hand" (Rev. 5:11; 8:3-4). Great is the power of prayer! "Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much," taught the Apostle James (Jam. 5:16). Praying for another is an expression of love for him; and the saints in Heaven, praying for us, show us their brotherly love and care.
If the prayers of simple people like us have such strength, then even more powerful are the prayers of the righteous, standing before the throne of God. "And this is the confidence that we have in him (the Son of God), that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us," urges the beloved of Christ (1 John 5:14). In the conclusion of his thorough teaching on this theme he writes: "Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us" (James 5th chapter; 1 Peter 3:6; Heb. 12:1).
So when I have a problem, I call my friends on the phone and ask them to pray for me. Then I pray to Jesus myself about the issue, and then I ěcallî one or two special friends who I believe to be in Heaven to pray for me too. Believe me, it REALLY makes me feel part of the family of God.
God bless you all
Loren |
Raven
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Username: Raven
Post Number: 70
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, October 28, 2004 - 7:08 am: | |
Sorry, Loren, but I'm having a hard time with this one! Why is there no evidence in the Bible of any of the apostles "calling on" or "praying to" any of the saints who had already passed on? Why is there no mention that it would be a privelage to do so? How are any of us on earth to know that the passed on person we are "calling on" is truly in heaven? Only God knows that for sure. Wouldn't that be an attempt to "contact the dead", which the Bible has clearly forbidden? Or is it okay because we wouldn't be seeking a physical response? |
Colleentinker
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Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 870
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 28, 2004 - 9:39 am: | |
I agree, Raven. The Bible is clear that we are to pray to God-not angels, not to anyone else. We are one in Christ, and the glory of the new covenant is that we can go straight to the Father. We certainly have no example of calling on the departed. As Raven said, the opposite is really true. We are commanded not to contact the dead.
I understand that one can explain that prayer to the saints isn't the same as attempting to conjure the dead as in a seance. Yet I find that distinction to be a bit hair-splitting. The dead are dead and are inaccessible to us on earth. My prayers must be directed to God, or I am not following the Bible's teaching or Jesus' example. We have an advocate with the Father, and we have direct access to the Father as well. We also have the Holy Spirit who intercedes for us when we don't even know how to pray. No departed saint can interceed for me more powerfully than can the Trinity.
Yes, God asks us to pray for each other. No, He does not leave us a Biblical option to pray to or for the dead. While I do believe that the righteous dead are part of God's people collectively, they are outside our conscious experience. I think we get ourselves into trouble when we leave the clear instruction of Scripture and surmise things based on our limited understanding of circumstances the Bible doesn't tell us much about.
Remember, Paul was taken into heaven (see 2 Cor. 12), and while he could talk confidently about its being better to depart and be with the Lord than to stay here, he did not even hint that the departed ones have influence over or for us, nor that we should appeal to them.
Colleen |
33ad
Registered user
Username: 33ad
Post Number: 81
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, October 28, 2004 - 3:04 pm: | |
Raven & Colleen,
I'm not here to persuade you in any way. My intent was just to put a fresh angle on "Church members" that we can get to pray for us too. I know that most protestant christians would not go along with this.
You are quite right, the scriptures are mostly silent about this, and Jesus taught us always to address Our Father, which is always the first thing to do. But we do not seek answers from the saints (Church members) who are now in the Church Triumphant. We always seek answers from our Father. We also don't know for sure what happens on the other side of the 'veil', and we don't know for sure who has found favour to stand before the throne (Or be in Abraham's Bosum if you like). But I personally have spoken to people who have had NDE's (Near Death Experiences) and what they tell is most often very similar, and most interesting.
I just want to point out though, that in Ephesians 6:18 we as church members are exhorted to "Keep on praying for the saints" (NIV) or "interceding in behalf of all the saints" (Amplified). Now I know Paul is speaking here of living earthly church members. But taking that request further to a conclusion, when those living saints fell asleep and were taken in the spirit to Paradise, they continued to remain church members of the Body of Christ with the same responsibilities.
So it appears to me that they would still pray for me in my struggle with the enemy, especially as they are now in God's presence. We also, as you stated, have the Holy Spirit who intercedes for us when we don't even know how to pray, that's true.
But also, whose prayers are in the incense mentioned in Rev 5:8? We're not told outright, but in reading Revelation in the broader context it appears to be the saints already in the Church Triumphant.
I'm the first to condemn communicating with the dead, for that is expresly forbidden. But talking to them as one might speak over the phone to someone in another country, and not requiring a reply from them, but from God is not a sin. Why do we ask someone to add us to a special prayer list, when we can and do pray to our Father directly? Because there is power in prayer, and the more people that pray together in prayer, the more God is honored. Because although God knows very well what we want or need, He loves the 'oneness' or 'unity' of the body of Christ in prayer.
Paul does not tell us to appeal to the saints, but he does make clear what we are joining ourselves to when we accept Christ - "But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the SPIRITS OF JUST MEN MADE PERFECT" (Heb. 12:22-23)
And 1 Thess4;14 intimates that Jesus is bringing the Saints in spirit form back with Him at His Second Coming so that they may receive thair new bodies in the resurection.
In 2 Peter 1:15 Peter also appears to be telling the converts that he would be watching over them even after he departs (Falls asleep).
I appologize if I'm not making much sense to you in this. I prayed for guidance from the Holy Spirit before I began this reply, but it's something even I took a long time to comprehend.
In summary, this isn't about worshiping departed saints, or even 'praying' to departed souls (In the way we understand prayer). It's only that there are a host of members of Christ's body which have gone before us, and who are willing to petiton to our Father and Saviour on our behalf just like when we ask our best church friends here to do it for us. We are One Church, United by the Spirit, waiting for the Second Coming, the Resurection, the final Judgement and the New Earth.
In closing, Jesus gave us the model prayer and we can approach the Throne of God Boldly with our praise and requests any time we like in the name of our Savior the Lord Jesus Christ. But we have the assurance that we belong to the Kingdom of God and as citizens we have access to ALL of Heaven's Resources.
Praise be to God.
Thanks for your input, I'll not discuss or defend this idea any further. Phil 2:12... 'continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling.'
Loren |
Sabra
Registered user
Username: Sabra
Post Number: 241
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, October 28, 2004 - 6:05 pm: | |
Loren,
I think it's good to reason a thing out. I'll llisten to anything, but show me where it is in the bible.  |
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