| Author | Message | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 671 Registered: 3-2004 |
The way I understand about the ark is that is was taken out of Jerusalem and is now in a small town in Ethopia. I have a video about it from Pax TV. It is very interesting. The elderly gentleman who guards it has seen it, according to the men who made the video. The guardian will not let anyone in to see it. EGW is the one who said it was in heaven. She is a false prophet and I do not trust a word she said. Diana | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 1038 Registered: 11-2002 |
Raven, your story about the kids thinking sundown ment dark got a big smile across my face. I can just immagine what your children were thinking. And, Adrian, back when I was in 7th grade I had a wack-o of a teacher. He gave us a science test (remember we kids are in 7th grade) that was multiple choice. The question was; Where does the sun set? The choices for answers were; A. In the west, B. in the east, C. it does not set. The earth revolves and turns away from the sun making it dark or D. no one really knows. Science has not figured this out yet. Nearly all the kids answered A., in the west. We all missed it. This is the same teacher that several weeks before the end of the school year he annunced to the class that he had a special field trip planned for us. He wanted to surprise us so he was not telling us where the field trip was to. We all were so excited. We took our notes home and had our parents sign them so we could go on the field trip. For two weeks there was a lot of antisipation and excitement about where we were going. Finily we decided he was taking us to the roller skating rink because everyone had told our teacher how much we wanted to go skating. Finily our big day came and we all got in the school bus. The teacher faced us kids and told us it would be a field trip none of us will ever forget. That he was taking us to a place that should tell us just what he thought of us. He took us to the sewer plant! We all went home telling our parents and thinking our parents should have it out with the schoolboard. But, this is in total hickville and all us kids heard from our parents was that we shouldn't have been such awful kids for our teacher and if our teacher thought the only field trip our class deserved was to the sewer plant than we must have been one sh*tty class. My mother had that teachers dad for her boss that year and when I'd come home complaining what a horrible man he was I just got complete sympothy. My mom would say, "Well, he sounds just like his father". He only taught school that one year. He got a job after that in a different line of work. BTW, this was in public school. Not SDA school. I have other memories of SDA school that are equally horrendous that I'll share over time. I think if that happened nowadays the school would get the ACLU after them. But, maybe not since as I said it was and still is the most hick area in the USA. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 844 Registered: 12-2003 |
Adrian, I'd never thought about the postion of the sun regarding sunset before! How funny--and you're absolutely right. One would need to know such details in order to get it right! My understanding of the ark in heaven is that it's a symbol for God's covenant--as you said. The reference to the sanctuary in heaven is symbolic for God's presence and Christ's atonement satisfying God's holiness, etc.--the ark must be similarly a symbol of God's holiness and justice and righteousness and His covenant with us. Adventists, as I'm sure you've realized, make a HUGE deal about the sanctuary in heaven--and Ellen actually said that there is a literal, physcial sanctuary there after which Israel's was patterned. That sanctuary is the locus of the great move of Jesus going from the Holy place to the Most Holy Place in 1844 and commencing the investigative judgment. She even says that after Jesus moved from the heavenly Holy place to the Most Holy, Satan took his seat upon the throne in the Holy Place, so that those who do not know or accept the sanctuary doctrine and the sanctuary work of Jesus are having their prayers answered by Satan. Of course, this teaching of Ellen's is one that many Adventists would like to forget she said, it's just SO unbiblical and embarrassing. Yet she said it, and it's an intrinsic part of the whole investigative judgment, 1844 teaching. Sigh. Colleen | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 45 Registered: 7-2004 |
Dear Doc, I don't know how much of a response this is to your question regarding the Ark of the Covenant because it comes from a non-Biblical source of sorts. The following was taken from the apocraphal book Second Baruch. If you will remember, Baruch was Jeremiah's scribe. In Second and Third Baruch the scribe himself recites some visions he claims to have been shown. These books were, at one time, considered to be a part of the Bible, and were edited out by the people who settled on the books that are presently in our Bibles. Anyway, here is what Baruch says about what happened to the Ark and several of the other temple appointments: 6 1 And it came to pass on the morrow that, lo! the army of the Chaldees surrounded the city, and at the time of the evening, I, Baruch, left the people, and I went forth and stood by the 2 oak. And I was grieving over Zion, and lamenting over the captivity which had come upon 3 the people. And lo! suddenly a strong spirit raised me, and bore me aloft over the wall of 4 Jerusalem. And I beheld, and lo! four angels standing at the four corners of the city, each of 5 them holding a torch of fire in his hands. And another angel began to descend from heaven, 6 and said unto them: 'Hold your lamps, and do not light them till I tell you. For I am first sent to speak a word to the earth, and to place in it what the Lord the Most High has commanded me And I saw him descend into the Holy of holies, and take from thence the veil, and the holy ark, and the mercy-seat, and the two tables, and the holy raiment of the priests, and the altar of incense, and the forty-eight precious stones, wherewith the priest was adorned and all the holy 8 vessels of the tabernacle. And he spake to the earth with a loud voice: 'Earth, earth, earth, hear the word of the mighty God, And receive what I commit to thee, And guard them until the last times, So that, when thou art ordered, thou mayst restore them, So that strangers may not get possession of them. 9 For the time comes when Jerusalem also will be delivered for a time, Until it is said, that it is again restored for ever.' 10 And the earth opened its mouth and swallowed them up. I picked up this quote from the Lost Books portion of the CARM website. Again, this is a quote from an apocraphal book, but as far as I understand things there was a lot of truth and history in the apocrapha, but they were excluded from the final version of the scriptures because some of the information may have become Hellenized, or had some other changes made to them so that they were no longer in agreement with the rest of scripture, and there were none of the older documents to use in their place. I've been having a wonderful time reading these Lost Books. I thought you might also find it interesting to know that in the Book of Enoch, where Enoch is prophesying about the Messiah, he referred to the Messiah as Son of Man. It is interesting that the supposedly earliest prophecies referred to Jesus as Son of Man, and that it was the name he most often used to refer to himself. Now, I'm not going to go out on a limb and say that the above quote is the end all of information regarding the Holy Ark, but we do know that it was in the temple in Jerusalem up until the Babylonian invasion. Jeremiah was the High priest at that time, and it was rumored that he hid the Ark in a cave in order to prevent it falling into the hands of the Babylonians. I've also heard about the Ark being hidden away by a special group of monks in a church in Ethiopia. Either way, the Ark is still here on earth, not in heaven. I find it interesting that the above quote alludes to the fact that the Ark will be hidden until the time that Jerusalem and the Earth are restored forever. Belva | ||
| Doc Registered user Username: Doc Post Number: 150 Registered: 2-2003 |
Yes, it is bad. I suppose it shows that if someone is really interested in thoroughly investigating a teaching to see if it is from God, the answer is not necessarily all that difficult to find. This is so clearly wrong. Who prays to a room in the temple anyway? Didn't she figure most people would not even know what she was talking about? It's a pity a lot of people really don't want to investigate their beliefs. Adrian | ||
| 33ad Registered user Username: 33ad Post Number: 60 Registered: 10-2004 |
Hi Belvalew, Glad to see you're going through those books. Although the early church (And today's Orthodox church) did not include them in the canon, they are considered by the church 'worthy of instruction'. It's what is called in Orthodoxy part of 'Holy Tradition'. BTW, does it really matter where the Ark is? It's not central to our Salvation. God will inform us one day when we see Him and get to ask Him, or when He thinks we aught to know. Blessings Loren | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 1039 Registered: 11-2002 |
Colleen, What egw book and what page is that quote you put above fron? | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 46 Registered: 7-2004 |
Dear Loren, I totally agree that it does not matter where the ark is right now. I found the reference in II Baruch to be interesting in that it appeared the ark meant enough to God that he sent an angel to hide it--Jeremiah really didn't have to hide it in a cave. The ark was the exact representation of God on earth. Up until the Babylonian invasion there was always at least a few Isrealites around to take care of it except for that brief time when it was stolen away by the Phillistines (how do you spell the name of that people, anyway?). At that point in time the nation of Isreal still existed. When Babylon carried the remainder of the Children if Isreal into captivity, the nation disappeared from the earth, for all intents and purposes. Isreal is an enigma in that it is the only nation (group of people) that has remained a corporeal mass even through those times when there was not even a spot of soil on which the nation could rest. But that discussion can wait for another time. I can remember my parents surmizing that at the very end of time the two arks (Noah's and the Covenant) would be located. Both are of extreme antiquity, and it's hard to believe that anything much of either one could remain unless God himself wants it (them) to remain as a testimony of His almighty power to an unbelieving world. By the way, if you carefully read some of Ellen White's visions you will recognize them as having been lifted from various books in the apocrapha. I guess she expected the rest of the people in her church to just blindly allow her to plagerize from any source she chose. I wish I could refer to the one she took from I Esdras, but I got rid of all my EGW books a long time ago. I do clearly remember reading Esdras (written by Ezra) and thinking to myself, hey, I've read this before! I'm a simple person, so my greatest celebration is that I was saved, 2000 years ago, on a cross outside of Jerusalem, by the precious blood of Jesus Christ who was himself God Almighty. I praise God that he has seen fit to make me a part of the Bride of Christ, and that I can hold that assurance all of the way to the Gates of Heaven. So now I am Celebrating Christ -- Belva | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 674 Registered: 3-2004 |
AMEN AND AMEN Belva. I, too am celebrating Christ all the way to the streets paved with gold in Heaven. God is awesome!! Diana | ||
| Doc Registered user Username: Doc Post Number: 151 Registered: 2-2003 |
Belva, Thanks for the info, and for taking the trouble to type out that reference. I did read the apocrpyha including the book of Enoch a while ago. Interesting, but not of the "standard" of the inspired writings, if one can say that. It is amazing how the Bible does not contain material which conflicts with modern scientific fact (though theory obviously does), even though knowledge of science has increased greatly since then. For instance, there is all that weird cosmology in the book of Enoch (I think) about the sun coming out of a cave and travelling across the sky. What I actually meant was: I was talking to this SDA about that Rev. ref. and he said there was a temple in heaven with the ark, so the 10 commandments are eternal, so we will keep the Sabbath in heaven. I assume he meant this was the "original" of which the earthly is a copy, so I just wanted an alternative explanation for this "heavenly temple" stuff. I was not asking what happened to the earthly ark. Sorry, but thanks again, Adrian | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 542 Registered: 7-2003 |
I'm presuming the ark has significance because it held the 10 Cs, but the rest of the law was with it too in handwritten form...so does that make it have significance as well or do SDAs think it isn't included? Just wondering. I've never spent much time pondering that detail. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 845 Registered: 12-2003 |
Susan, I can't remember where that quote is. I believe Dale Ratzlaff references it in Cultic Doctrine, but would you believe it? I don't have a copy here! Melissa, SDAs explanation for the handwritten law being with the ark is this: The 10 Commandments were INSIDE the ark; the rest of the handwritten law was outside. Clearly the rest of the law did not have the same importance as the 10. The 10 were from God's hand and written on stone (read that Permanent), while the rest of the law was merely hand transcribed on papyrus (or whatever) and clearly NOT permanent. They do ignore the fact that the 10 Commandments were actually the words of the covenant, not a timeless transcription of God's character. It's not an accidental metaphor that Ezekiel and Jeremiah talk about God giving His people hearts of flesh instead of hearts of stone. The amazing part of that metaphor is that hearts of stone are not permanent; they are changed in the new covenant to hearts of flesh. Human logic would say stone was permanent while flesh is transient. The new covenant, however, turns that human understanding upside down. Colleen | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 1040 Registered: 11-2002 |
Three men died on the same day. They got to the pearley gates and St. Peter told them they could each go back home and bring one, only one suveniour from earth with them. They were to go home, get a souveniour and come back. This they did. The first man got to the entrance to heaven and St. Peter had him to show what he'd brought. It was a lovely picture of his long departed wife. St. Peter tells the man. "Well, your wife is here so you really didn't need to bring the picture but that's o.k. with me if that's what you want. Go on in." And, the man took his wifes picture and went into eaven. The second man got to St. Peter and St. Peter asked him what he had brought. The man brought out Fluffy, is precious much loved little dog. St. Peter thought that was a very loving thing to do and he let the second man and his precious little Fluffy into heaven. The third man gets to the pearley gates and he has a very heavey chest. On earth while alive the man had become quite wealthy. St. Peter said to the man, "And, what did you bring?" The man is very proud of his earthly accomplishments and hands the chest to St. Peter and says, "Here see for yourself what I brought." St. Peter opens the chest and sees the chest is filled with gold and in astonishment he says to the man, "Sir, why did you bring PAVEMENT?" | ||
| 33ad Registered user Username: 33ad Post Number: 64 Registered: 10-2004 |
LOVED that Susan;-)(LOL) Yes, why are we trying to gather up 'Pavement', when God promised us that if we first seek the Kingdom of Heaven,then ALL the rest will be added (as a feebie)? Jesus came to save US (Me, You, individually), so that's all He wants - ALL of US. Then we get IT ALL! Belvalew, it's spelled 'Philistines' (TIP - when typing up a post keep a window of WORD or another text editor open. Then highlight the word, put it into WORD, do a spellcheck, and there you are. Just Cut/Copy & Paste back into the Posting box) Blessings Loren | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 677 Registered: 3-2004 |
Susan, that is rich!!! Why did you bring pavement?? And Loren, I like what you say, because it is true and Biblical. Jesus came so save each of us and it is FREE when we, individually, accept Him. Diana | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 200 Registered: 4-2000 |
Susan, Colleen's comments are based on the following statement by Ellen White: "I saw that the nominal churches, as the Jews crucified Jesus, had crucified these messages, and therefore they have no knowledge of the move made in heaven, or of the way into the Most Holy Place, and they cannot be benefited by the intercession of Jesus there. Like the Jews, who offered their useless sacrifices, they offer up their USELESS PRAYERS to the apartment which Jesus has left, and Satan, pleased with the deception of the professed followers of Christ, fastens them in his snare, and assumes a religious character, and leads the minds of these professed followers of Christ, fastens them in his snare, and assumes a religious character, and leads the minds of these professed Christians to himself, and works with his power, his signs and lying wonders." (Spiritual Gifts, Vol. 1, pp. 171, 172) The above statement is quoted by Dale Ratzlaff, in his book THE CULTIC DOCTRINE, on page 290. Dennis J. Fischer | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 856 Registered: 12-2003 |
Thank you, Dennis! (We just ordered some more books--I need to designate one for an office copy!) Colleen | ||
| Sabra Registered user Username: Sabra Post Number: 237 Registered: 10-2001 |
It seems that the ark is in heaven somehow, as in Revelation it says they saw it and mourned--sorry if that isn't exactly a quote. What I think it means, instead of the 10 commandment argument the Adventists give, is that Israel sees the ark and they see the blood on the mercy seat and they know that the Messiah did come and that it was finished and they are so astonished that they didn't get it. It has nothing to do with keeping the 10, it has to do with the revelation that atonement was already made and they didn't receive it. It is devastating to them. God does still have that covenant with them because they have not received the new convenant. We are all one in Christ, but not until we are in Christ. Without Christ there is still Jew and slave, male and female. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 863 Registered: 12-2003 |
Interesting points, Sabra. Colleen | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 202 Registered: 4-2000 |
Susan, Here is another excerpt from the writings of Ellen White (not quoted in CULTIC DOCTRINE) that validates what Colleen was saying: "I turned to look at the company who were still bowed before the throne; they did not know that Jesus had left it. Satan appeared to be by the throne, trying to carry on the work of God. I saw them look up to the throne, and pray, "Father, give us Thy Spirit." Satan would then breathe upon them an unholy influence; in it there was light and much power, but no sweet love, joy, and peace. Satan's object was to keep them deceived and to draw back and deceive God's children." [Early Writings, p. 56] Wow! Her thoughts on this topic are really unchristian (no surprise for an unbiblical doctrine). The more she talks about the investigative judgment, the theology gets even worse. In awe of Calvary, Dennis J. Fischer |
