| Author | Message | ||
| Hrobinsonw Registered user Username: Hrobinsonw Post Number: 61 Registered: 7-2004 |
I got outnumbered by an office of SDA at work today. We each presented our cases. I don't know if I was wrong or not for arguing. I kept trying to change the subject because I was trying to fix their computer and religion is not an issue that you want to get into at work. So they gave me these lists of websites. I want to cross reference them but I need your help with the facts. One lady came to me after I had left and asked me to apply my scriptural evidence because she is open minded and has some issues. So I am asking for help if you all don't mind. | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 36 Registered: 8-2004 |
What websites? Did you send a list? helovesme2 | ||
| Hrobinsonw Registered user Username: Hrobinsonw Post Number: 62 Registered: 7-2004 |
sorry, here they are. www.itiswritten.org www.voiceofprophecy.org www.breathoflife.org | ||
| Hrobinsonw Registered user Username: Hrobinsonw Post Number: 63 Registered: 7-2004 |
I have looked at them, and it doesn't really show anything. I'll look deeper. Those ladies only argument was that the commandments are still relevant today and that the Bible never says that they were done away with. What is with SDA and Catholics? Do they hate them or something. They got indignant when they started saying that the Catholic Church changed the sabbath to Sunday. I told them that they didn't do it. Contantine did it and they followed suit. I might have been wrong about that, but all in all it was a good discussion. | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 37 Registered: 8-2004 |
The first two are websites that belong to more or less 'official' SDA outreach organizations. They offer correspondence schools, radio and TV programs. The last one I'm not sure what is - just glancing at it makes me wonder if it is the site they had in mind. How were these sites being offered? As sites that explain what 'SDA's really believe'? Or as sites that would 'explain the real truth'? I'm curious! Sounds like you had quite a day at work! helovesme2 | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 38 Registered: 8-2004 |
SDAs historically have very strong antipathy to Catholicism. They teach that Catholicism is false Christianity and the head of the Catholic church is the antichrist. They believe that the 'fact' that the Catholic church changed the day of worship is one of the main evidences that Catholicism is the source of the antichrist. I grew up scared of the Pope and 'his men'. There are those now who have toned down the rhetoric, and some SDAs who may be ignorant of it, but so far as I know it is still the church position. Sabbath vs Sunday doesn't seem to have been that big a deal to the early church, but there are others here much more able to give more facts on that! Helovesme2 | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 858 Registered: 12-2003 |
Hrob, Helsovesme2 is right; Adventists have a strong belief (EGW, The Great Controversy) that the pope is the antichrist, and that all Sunday-"keeping" Protestants are apostates and will join with the Catholics to persecute and kill Sabbath-keepers during the Time of Trouble. While many younger Adventists would say they don't necessarily believe all that, they still have an underlying disturst of Catholicism and the pope. Richard also grew up scared of the Catholics and always superimposed the "hunt and kill" scenario over his Catholic neighbors. Breath of Life is also an official Adventist organization. It is similar to Voice of Prophecy and It Is Written, but it is geared toward the African-American sub-culture. They do large evangelistic crusades as to "Voice" and "It Is Written". The message of all three is the same. We have been watching snippets of a Breath of Life crusade in Baltimore (I think) on the Hope Channel via internet. They follow the same pattern as all other SDA crusades. They meet in a hall, and when they work up to the Sabbath, they present it, have the next meeting on Sabbath in the church, and then make calls for people to obey God and commit to join God's true church (while the organ or piano plays softly in the background...). Dales books--Cultic Doctrine and Sabbath in Christ--are probably the most helpful in understanding where these ladies are coming from and how to answer them. Keep us posted--we'll help any way we can! Colleen | ||
| Vchowdhury1 Registered user Username: Vchowdhury1 Post Number: 62 Registered: 7-2004 |
Hrobinsonw, the catholic church did not change Sabbath to Sunday. The early Christians actually have been worshiping on The first day of the week since the times of Paul. Peter preached his first sermon on Sunday. The Holy Spirit was given to the early Christians on a Sunday,etc. When you read the writings of the apostle Paul, it seems like all of the early church activities were conducted on the first day of the week (Sunday). Constantine, as I understand it, only made Sunday worship MANDATORY, but he was not the one to actually CHANGE it. There is biblical evidence of this early christian Sunday worship. I am at work now, but I will go home and give you the new testement references by tomorrow. --Valerie | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 1046 Registered: 11-2002 |
O.K., I'll junp in on this discussion. Look up some of the early Christian history. I have it in my notes but my notes are not in front of me right now. The Christans began their weekly Sunday services the first Sunday after Jesus was resurrected. There is historical documents going back to in the 70's A.D. verifying this. The best advice I can give is go on this very website to the links. Go to Dirk's site. Then go to his links. Then go to Janet Brown's link. Just keep linking from previous links and you will get a wealth of Christian history. It's all very interesting. SDA's tend to be fearful of Catholics. The SDA's will say it is not the Catholic people they are fearful of and they hate but rather it is the Catholic church and the pope. In fact, they will tell you it is not the person who is the pope that they abhoor but it is the position of pope. They teach that the pope and by extension the Catholic church is the anti-Christ. They teach that the numbers on the popes headpiece when given numerical value with Roman numerals equals 666, thus proving the Catholic church/the pope is the anti-Christ. I might add when doing the same thing to the name Ellen Gould White you also will come up with a total of 666. The SDA church teaches that during the last 7 years or the last 3 1/2 years depending on what minister is trying to teach this cornball doctrine has figured out from EGW's writings, that all true followers of Christ (and this means only SDA's as at the very end only SDA's will be the only true followers of Christ) will suffer great persucuation for keeping Sabbath, which they believe is the final criteria of true believers. The Sunday-keepers will hunt down and torchure the faithful SDA's. SDA's will have to flee to the wilderness. Many years ago was an ad in the Review from a wealthy SDA man who had bouht some property in the wilderness so he'd have a place to flee to in the time of trouble. The SDA's refer to this period of time just prior to the retun ofJesus as "the time of trouble". The man wanted a caretaker for his place. My mom knew my dad liked being in the mountains and had asked my dad if he wanted to apply for the caretaker position. My dad fortuately didn't want the job. Now the place the man had bought to flee to has been eaten up by San Diego so it no longer is wilderness. My friend who lives way far out in the wilderness in Hawaii bought her wilderness property after reading the Great Controversery. She at least makes sense. She told me she can't affort a place to flee to and a place to live at so she'll just get one place way out in the wilderness but since the time of trouble hasn't come yet she wants to be close enough to the beach so she can at least go surfing every day. Nonetheless, many people in my age group (50's) got nightmares and anxiety attacks as children growing up from our SDA grown-ups telling us all the horrible things the Catholics would do to us in the last days for being true to the Sabbath. Jesus was NEVER brought into this discussion except to say that we would have to suffer from persucation from the Cathlics for being true to Sabbath before Jesus would come. That's the entire doctrine in a nutshell, the sentence above this one. When my elderly mother asked me if I was a member of the Lutheran church and I answered "yes" she yelled at me, "Are you taking classes on perscuting Cammandment keepers in the last days?" I was so appalled that I went home and didn't visit with her for nearly two weeks. Then I realized as I was calming down that it is total brainwashing of a sick sort that our SDA loved ones have gone through. In SDA termonology "Commandment keepers" ALWAYS refers to SDA's. No othwr Sabbath observing Christian is even considered part of this. In fact, a SDA will include a Jew in this catagory before they will other Christians who observe the Sabbath. I can say this because back during the 2000 presidential election many SDA's were all jazzed about the idea of having a Sabbath keeper in the White House. Senator Joseph Liberman is Jewish. I would point that out to my SDA relatives, that he was Jewish and not Christian. No matter, he was a Sabbath keeper so he was right with God. It's very sick. I can't stress this enough. The SDA way of thinking after one really learns it is sick, sick, sick. I really believe, at least in my situtation, the only way to deal with SDA's is to totally not discuss anything Bibical or Christian or anything like that at all with them and to pray for and about them fervently and to pray that I can live my life in a way that they will ask me the questions first. It is a very convoluted and warped and distorted view of Jesus and truth that they have. This may sound very outrageous to some but I honestly believe the SDA religion is powered by satanic forces. Yes, I believe books like the Great Controversery are possessed. I guess I've said enough. I'll stop for now. | ||
| 33ad Registered user Username: 33ad Post Number: 69 Registered: 10-2004 |
Hi Valerie & Susan, Thanks for putting everyone right about Sunday worship. I just want to but in here too and add:- A)There was NO Roman Catholic Church before 1054AD. B)Constantine was only the 'facilitator' for the 1st Ecumenical Council of Bishops at Nicea, Asia Minor, in 325. The BISHOPS made the decisions and resolutions. Constantine only 'rubber stamped' them. Also, there was never a decee to force people to worship on Sunday (Known either as The Lord's day or Resurection Day) only that official persecution of Christians was outlawed, and that it was 'permissible' to keep Sunday as a rest day. What SDA's have been teaching about poor old Constantine and Rome has always been lies. (Not that Rome is an innocent organization, but lets start a new thread on that.) God Bless Loren | ||
| 33ad Registered user Username: 33ad Post Number: 70 Registered: 10-2004 |
Hi All, I must apologize for making a statement without checking. i.e. The only resolution that the Church made at the Council of Nicea relating to "Sunday", was that "All prayers were to be made while standing"(In other words, no kneeling on Sundays) Here's the whole of Canon 20:"Since there are some persons who kneel in church on Sunday and on the days of Pentecost, with a view to preserving uniformity in all parishes, it has seemed best to the holy Council for prayers to be offered to God while standing. (c. XC of the 6th; c. XV of Peter.) Interpretation. The customs handed down by the Apostles and the Fathers ought all to be observed in common by all the churches, and not some of them by some churches alone. For this reason the present Canon ordains that inasmuch as some Christians bow their knee even on Sunday and on the days from Easter to Pentecost, which is contrary to the Canons and improper, to the end that all Apostolical and patristic traditions ó one of which is not to bow the knee on Sunday and throughout Pentecost ó may be kept in all Orthodox churches the world over, it has seemed reasonable to this holy Council for all Christians to offer their prayers to God on these days, not while kneeling, but while standing upright." Source: Canons of the Seven Ecumenical Councils. Archbishop Peter LíHuillier (Pedalion) Online: http://www.holytrinitymission.org/books/english/councils_ecumenical_rudder.htm Nothing here about Prescribed & Forced Sunday Keeping! Loren | ||
| Hrobinsonw Registered user Username: Hrobinsonw Post Number: 64 Registered: 7-2004 |
Colleen, I keep trying to order those books from the bookstore here. I don't have a credit card (fearful of getting one), so getting materials ordered is pretty difficult. Do they have other ways of obtaining those books. But Anyway, thanks for the information on the Catholic Church everyone. Vchowdhury1, I love your facts. I love all of your facts. Thanks. You have to excuse my word flow today, my beloved St. Louis Cardinals have fallen behind 3-0 to the Boston Red Sox. I am SEVERELY DEPRESSED. It is almost like all of my excitement about finally getting back to the World Series just came crashing down. I know the people back home in St. Louis are just as depressed as I am. My boss called me after the game last night and told me to come in an hour late this morning, because he knew that I would be in another place. I have to start taking down all of my Cardinal stickers from my computer and cabinets. | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 547 Registered: 7-2003 |
Loren, that's what I've always understood about Constantine as well. He only legalized a practice that was already taking place...he didn't change anything in regards to their worship traditions. However, prior to Constantine legalizing Christianity, christians were routinely killed horrible deaths. I think it's just weird that the SDAs have villanized the man who tried to stop the persecution and death of Christians. Constantine was by no means perfect and many commentators differ on his efforts to Christianize the world he knew, but to somehow say his claim to fame is to change the historical day of worship seems false according to available historical documents. Furthermore, he did nothing to prohibit people from worshipping on Saturday if that was their choice. The SDA bent just seems to be negative towards worshipping God on Sunday, as they claim the rest of us are against them worshipping on Saturday. The difference is that "we Sundaykeepers" don't care what day they worship, but they really are opposed to our worship on Sunday. The most interesting book, and one of the most thorough analysis I've read on t he topic in an individual source, is "The Lord's Day From Neither Catholics nor Pagans: An Answer to Seventh-Day Adventism on this Subject". It is available online at http://help_for_sdas.tripod.com/Canright-LordsDay It answers many of the teachings and accusations SDAs make against worshipping on Sunday. | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 548 Registered: 7-2003 |
5{st the Cardinals have made it to the series...look on the other side of the state to the Royals and you see what we look at each year. It would be nice to see them at least make a series out of it. Maybe they'll do better in their next game. | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 549 Registered: 7-2003 |
That's weird...the first two words were "at least" when I typed it originally.... | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 859 Registered: 12-2003 |
Hrob, yes, there is a way you can order those books! You can send a check to: Life Assurance Publishing, PO Box 11587, Glendal, AZ, 85318. As for the credit card--I'll tell you what Richard tells our 21-yr-old son (who has also been afraid of getting a credit card, partly because he was raised with us talking about the irresponsibility of people buying with credit when they can't afford what they're buying!). Here's what he says: First, having a credit card will not give "them" any more information about you than they can already get via other methods, including internet connections, internet ID searches, GPS, cell phone transmissions, etc. Having a credit card, if you always pay it off at the end of the month and spend no more than you can pay for, opens doors for things you could not otherwise do. For example, it helps establish a credit rating that will help you to do things such as buy a house, etc., later. It's also there in the cases of true emergencies when cash or even checks might not be a feasible option. So, that's my parental word for you! (You're certainly free to ignore it!) Anyway, I hope this helps you to be able to buy the books! Colleen | ||
| 33ad Registered user Username: 33ad Post Number: 72 Registered: 10-2004 |
Colleen & Hrob, Richard is quite correct. If you have a drivers licence, telephone/cell, savings account, or a utility account "they" already know who you are. None of us can hide. They (our parliament) passed a law in our country (South Africa) where we all have to show the banks our utility accounts with our residential address to "verify" us, otherwise all our accounts will be frozen by Dec 31 until we can prove who we are. And everyone's wages are paid directly into our accounts. Almost nobody here gets paid by check. And, we were told, this was "in line with the UN resolution to stop money laundering!!???" Anyhow, if you thought you could get away from "them", forget it. Also in our country we all have to carry bar coded ID Books besides our Driver's Licence, and when you apply for the ID book, we're forced to be fingerprinted at the same time. We already live in the NWO here. That is why I keep a very sensitive political ear to the ground on a global basis. Anyhow, we're only 'passing thru' here, our King will fetch us soon. So don't get too paranoid about Big Brother. He's been around far longer than we realise. Just keep a good look-out. God Bless Loren | ||
| 33ad Registered user Username: 33ad Post Number: 73 Registered: 10-2004 |
Thanks for the link Melissa. I'll have a look at that book. Loren | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 55 Registered: 10-2004 |
Hrob, also, if you have a checking account, you can use your debit card as a credit card, to place orders online, etc. Also (just to correct Colleen's little typo  ), the city name is Glendale. Jeremy | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 865 Registered: 12-2003 |
Oops--Thank you, Jeremy! I didn't notice! |
