| Author | Message | ||
| Esther Registered user Username: Esther Post Number: 74 Registered: 5-2004 |
Chris, Thank you for this study. This was especially meaningful to me right now. I praise God that He gave you the strength and insight to present such a comprehensive study of scripture. | ||
| Speakeasy Registered user Username: Speakeasy Post Number: 171 Registered: 9-2002 |
Chris even though I do not understand much of what you have given on this topic. It is in the last day or so. You have given me a calming feeling. That Don't worry about it. God will take care of what you need to know. (Did you notice i spelled God in full) He through what you have given on this thread. God is telling me don't worry about it. I am in controll and I will give you what you need. Chris I truly want to thank you for putting up with me on this. Like I said I don't understand much of what is on this thread. But I did learn. That God is in his time it could be a week or 20 years or whatever. But God will provide what you need for your walk with him. I think a big turning point was not just what your study has brought to all of us . But also your love and wanting to show what God has given you for us to see. And you through doing this. God has opened my mind and is working on me. I am VERY STUBBORN on many things and through you God has opened my heart to things that he wants me to see. Chris thanks for what you have done. You will NEVER NEVER Know how much this thread has ment to me. In the last few days or even just yesterday. God opened my heart and what ever he wants me to be and know and learn he will do it. One last thing. I believe you are correct on all points in this thread. I don't know all and understand all but I except your study to be true. Because it is from the word of God! Thanks speakeasy | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 826 Registered: 12-2003 |
Praise God, from Whom all blessings flow! | ||
| Dd Registered user Username: Dd Post Number: 167 Registered: 7-2004 |
Chris, Thank you for the beautiful texts and thoughts. I have a friend that I am doing the "IJ Dance" with. Your texts regarding Jesus as God are wonderful for me to use in saying, "Why does God need to prove anything to anyone?" He is the Eternal, All-Powerful, Alpha and Omega, Holy LORD of Lords! I loved how you brought out the history behind Jesus' words at the cross ("My God, My God...") that show He is the fulfillment of prophecy. QUESTION for Chris and all other Bible scholars! Maybe my question to you is for another thread but I will ask it here...The SDA belief of the Pre-Advent Judgment comes via EGW and the Daniel 8 interpretation but is there any other verses in the Bible to substantiate this doctrine? I am assuming not as I have searched on my own and find none. I find many supporting verses that say Jesus will never leave the right hand of God until Jesus returns and at that time every eye will see Him (Rev. 19:11-21). Besides the argument that the Bible leaves Jesus at the right hand of His Father, is there any other "ways" (ie Scripture) to point out the fallacy of this doctrine? | ||
| Dd Registered user Username: Dd Post Number: 168 Registered: 7-2004 |
Colleen, You mentioned a few days back of putting all of Chris' texts/study on the forum in one spot. I would really appreciate if that could be done. I am sure it is no easy feat. Please let me thank you and Richard in advance. If you guys can do this, will you make an announcement so I will be sure and look? Chris, You may even want to look into publishing your hard work...? | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 456 Registered: 7-2003 |
Speakeasy, thank you for your nice note and may I also say, "Praise the Lord!" Your thoughts posted above bring to mind the following verses. They are a promise to you and to all who believe. 6 Be anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known to God. 7 And the peace of God, which surpasses all comprehension, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus. Phil 4:6-7 (NASB) Chris | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 457 Registered: 7-2003 |
Why did Jesus say, 28 "You heard that I said to you, 'I go away, and I will come to you.' If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced because I go to the Father, for the Father is greater than Iî in John 14:28? Here Jesus is revealing the subordinate role that He accepted as a necessary part of the incarnation. During the incarnation Jesus continued to exist as God and to be fully equal with God. However, during the incarnation, He sovereignly chose not to use all the powers and privileges of His divinity. He was fully God and fully man. He not only took on the form and nature of man, but He lived life as man. During the incarnation Christ lived in dependence on the Father and in complete obedience to the Father. (see Philippians 2:6-8). When He returned to the Father all His glory, power, priviledge, and honor would be unveiled. We must interpret Jesus statement in light of the Bibleís clear claim that, though He subordinated Himself to the Father during the incarnation, He remained equal with the Father and one with the Father. ìI and the Father are one.î John 10:30 Chris | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 49 Registered: 10-2004 |
Dd, There are, of course, no verses to substantiate the doctrine. If you mean verses they try to use to substantiate it, they use a number of verses, taken out of context/misinterpreted/misapplied of course. One example from EGW's Great Controversy is particularly interesting. EGW herself says on page 581 of The great Controversy:
Wow, that fits EGW herself so well, doesn't it? She really condemned herself! Especially keep in mind her statement about "quoting half of a single verse as proving their point, when the remaining portion would show the meaning to be quite the opposite." She does that herself all the time, by the way. And that is exactly what she did in the exact same book on page 480:
Not only did she do what she condemned ("quoting half of a single verse as proving their point, when the remaining portion would show the meaning to be quite the opposite"), she also misquoted it. She made it look like the sentence she quoted began with the word "Judgment" (capital J). She actually only quoted the last half of the verse and sentence, because the beginning shows that it is not talking about any "Investigative Judgment"! Here is the verse in the KJV quoted in full, with the part she left out in bold:
The verse is talking about suffering, and says that "the time" had already "come" in Peter's day. And Ellen does exactly what she condemns others for doing and says the text is talking about a then-future "Investigative Judgment" of "the professed people of God"!!! There are many ways (from Scripture) to point out how false the IJ doctrine is. One of the best passages is Psalm 130:3-4a (NIV): "If you, O LORD, kept a record of sins, O Lord, who could stand? But with you there is forgiveness;" God does not keep a record of our sins! Also note that it is saying that forgiveness means that there is no record of our sins! SDAs try to say that God has "forgiven" their sins (past sins anyway) but that they are still on the record books. Hebrews is also a very good book against the IJ. Especially chapter 9. If you want, I can try to go through some of chapter 9, and try to explain how you could point out how it proves the IJ to be false. Jeremy | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 458 Registered: 7-2003 |
A question was asked on why Paul didn't preach the truths of the Trinity and Christ's deity. I would refer the reader back to the versus listed in my study that reveal the truths of the Trinity. One can quickly see that a large number of the versus come from Paul's epistles. I started counting, but quit after I got to 30+ versus from Paul. Also asked was when this concept started. The truest answer is that the concept of the Trinity has no beginning because God has always existed as a single living Being in three persons. God has existed as the Trinity from all eternity, before the foundation of the world. If the question is really, "When did humans finally become aware of this mystery?" then the answer changes a bit. There are hints of the personal distinctions within the one Being that is God in the OT (Tanek), but this mystery was largely unrevealed. Jesus Christ was the greatest revelation of God. We see all the truths necessary to apprehend the Trinity taught by Jesus and His apostles. So we can say that it was not until the coming of Christ that people began to glimpse the triune nature of God. 18 No one has ever seen God. It is God the only Son, who is close to the Father's heart, who has made him known. John 1:18 (NRSV) Chris | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 459 Registered: 7-2003 |
A question was asked about who we should pray to. I found a good article on this from the CHRISTIAN APOLOGETICS & RESEARCH MINISTRY at www.carm.org. Since this webstie has a section encouraging readers to cut and paste materials when involved in online discussion, I will take this as permission to post this article as part of this discussion. Everything that follows my signiture is from CARM. Chris Who do we pray to, the Father, the Son, or the Holy Spirit? If the Trinity is true that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are all the one God, then is it not possible that we can pray to each of the members of the Trinity? Or, should we only pray to the Father, or only pray to "God"? Jesus told us to pray to the Father in Matt. 6:9 when He said, ìPray, then, in this way: ëOur Father who art in heaven, hallowed be Thy name." What is the proper method of prayer? We can answer this question when we realize that God Himself is worthy of prayer and God is a Trinity of persons. Therefore, it would seem fair to say that we can pray to each member of the Godhead. Jesus said in John 14:14, "If you ask Me anything in My name, I will do it." Therefore, it would seem safe to say that we can pray to Jesus and ask Him to answer our prayers. Also, we can see further confirmation of this by looking at the phrase, "call upon the name of the Lord." In the Old Testament that phrase is used only of God and it includes the meaning of worship, adoration, and prayer. Psalm 116:4 says, "Then I called upon the name of the Lord: 'O Lord, I beseech Thee, save my life!'î What is interesting is that this phrase is applied to Jesus in 1 Cor. 1:2, "to the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints by calling, with all who in every place call upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours." Paul obviously knew the significance of the phrase, which included prayerful appeal, and applied it to Jesus. In 1 Cor. 1:9 it says, "God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord." The word "fellowship" is the Greek word "koinonia" which is also translated as the word "communion." 1 Cor. 1:9 says that we are to have an intimate fellowship with Jesus. That is fine. But, how can we have fellowship with someone we never talk to? Therefore, this verse can also be used to support the idea of praying to Jesus. If it is okay to pray to the Father, and the Son, is it alright to pray to the Holy Spirit? The answer would be yes because the Holy Spirit is also God. Nevertheless, we never see an instance in the Bible where anyone prays to the Holy Spirit? Why is that? The answer is that the Holy Spirit does not bear witness of Himself. He bears witness of the Son (John 15:26). But still, we can pray to the Spirit because we are also called into fellowship with the Spirit. 2 Cor. 13:14 says, "The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all." Finally, we can simply pray to God. We can address God, the Lord, in our prayers and as you feel led, address the members of the Trinity. | ||
| Speakeasy Registered user Username: Speakeasy Post Number: 172 Registered: 9-2002 |
Chris why did Jesus say sometimes. The father is greater than I. And there is no one good except my father? IF he were God why would he say otherwise? I am still re-reading all of what you posted on this topic. I still say WOW. This is a packed thread full of great and wonderfull things. THANKS. and MUCHO BEUNO. speakeasy | ||
| Speakeasy Registered user Username: Speakeasy Post Number: 173 Registered: 9-2002 |
Chris in Genesis 3 There is what I think is a conversation that maybe between the Godhead. I have noticed in the King James Version that it will say "And God said" then it will go back to "And From the LORD" Then go back to "Then God" And then "For the LORD says" . If this is 2 parts of the Godhead talking back and forth. And it sure looks like it is. I think this is a Great point to show people that this is happening. I believe that the Godhead could be talking back and forth hear. And if it is. There is 8 or 9 other places in the Torah and the rest of the Old Testament that this is happening. It happens in Exoduse as well as a few more times in Genesis and Dueteronomy as well. I just was studying the Old Testament to see if there was things like this in it. And I think there is. What do you think? speakeasy | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 831 Registered: 12-2003 |
Speakeasy, I'll address your question from my perpective, and Chris can answer you later when he reads your post. I don't see any places in Genesis three that are examples of the Godhead talking back and forth with the exeption of verse 22 where God says about Adam and Eve after they ate the forbidden fruit: "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil." A similar passage is found in other places, as well, including Genesis 1:26. It is most likely that the plural "us" is showing God's sovereignty, the "royal 'we' " that monarchs often use when referring to themselves. It is an evidence of sovereign rule more than an evidence of plurality. Speakeasy, what Chris wrote above is really true. The revelation of the person of Christ was veiled in the Old Testament. Jesus was the revelation of the Father, and He is the promised fulfillment of all the shadows of Him in the Old Testament. All the ceremonies in the temple, the blood of atonmenet, the sacrifices, the high priest--all these things were shadows of Jesus. While the Isrealites did not recognize the person of Jesus--the second person of the Trinity--still God provided powerful shadows and promises of Him. Israel did not understand that the Messiah would be God. Now, there were great hints that a mere human could not fulfill all the promises: the blood offerings and sacrifices to bring about atonement with God could never have been fulfilled by a mere human. Israel as a whole missed the significance of the promises and shadows because they were stuck in their own understanding of what they thought they wanted and needed and of what they thought God was like. So, while the reality of Jesus was veiled in the Old Testament, still God gave his people powerful hints and shadows that described and promised Him. The symbol of Isaac alone hinted at something much greater than a human born of another human. Isaac was a miraculous birth--the result of God's explicit intervention. Jesus was not a created afterthought--He was God, and even his human birth came about by a miracle of God. Hebrews 10:20 explains that Jesus was present in the Old Testament times functioning as our Savior. This verse says that "a new and living way opened for us through the curtain that is his body, and since we have a great priest over the house of God, let us draw near to God with a sincere heart..." In other words, the curtain in the temple which hid the shekinah glory from the eyes of the priests and preserved their lives as they served in the temple by shielding them from being in the very presence of God--this curtain represented Jesus. Even before He came as a human, Jesus Himself protected us from the terrible glory and presence of God which would have destroyed us in our sins. Even before his body was broken, his unbroken body stood between us and God, as the curtain did, shielding us from destruction until His body would be broken and pay the price for our sins. The people alive in the Old Testament times were not aware of these things as we are now because of living on this side of the cross. Yet they were true and real. These realities were hidden from OT people's full understanding, yet Jesus was real and present and intervening even then. If you look for Jesus in the Old Testament, you will find clear evidences of Him! Colleen | ||
| Speakeasy Registered user Username: Speakeasy Post Number: 174 Registered: 9-2002 |
Collenn Like I said to Chris I have excepted what he wrote on this thread. I believe that in Genesis it is part of possibly the Godhead talking to each other. If you read what Chris wrote that the Father,Son and Holy Spirit are seperate. And in the Genesis passage. You have the Lord Talking and then it goes back to God then back and forth 3 times. And G0d and the Lord are making statements back and forth. If not why would it be "The Lord" Saying something then in the next pargraph all of a sudden "The Lord" Is changed to "God" Colleen if it were only the Lord or God then Moses would have wrote just one or the other. But he didn't and This maybe what you said above. "If you look for Jesus in the Old Testament, you will find clear evidences of Him!" I am looking with an open mind and God is showing me things that are true. You may also like I am doing need to open up and search yourself the Hidden evidences of Jesus as I am doing. It is all throughout the Tenak. And the Trinity is Loaded through the Tenak as well. It all depends on what you except. Like I said I have changed and it was God that did it. So open your mind up to new things that possibly be evidences of the trinity and other things. It is hard for me to see all but Boy am I seeing things that I did not before. speakeasy | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 460 Registered: 7-2003 |
Notice that Jesus does not deny being God. He simply tells the man that he has no business calling anyone "good" in an unqualified sense except God. Jesus is of course worthy of being called ìgoodî because He is God and was truly without sin, but He is making a very important point to the young man. Notice that in verse 20 the young man makes a claim to perfect commandment keeping and in essence claims he is ìgoodî. Jesus points out to him that the young man is not perfect or sinless by asking him to give up his wealth for the poor. The young man cannot bring himself to do this and goes away sorrowful realizing that contrary to what he had previously thought, he was not ìgoodî enough to merit eternal life. I would imagine that this lesson wasnít lost on those near by either. The young man was not truly good, because only God is good in the ultimate sense. Jesus, as the God-man, is the only man to ever live a perfect sinless life, therefore He is the only man who can truly be called good in the ultimate sense. 21 He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. 2 Cor 5:21 (NASB) 15 For we do not have a high priest who cannot, sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin. Heb 4:15 (NASB) 26 For it was fitting for us to have such a high priest, holy, innocent, undefiled, separated from sinners and exalted above the heavens; Heb 7:26 (NASB) 19 but with precious blood, as of a lamb unblemished and spotless, the blood of Christ. 1 Peter 1:19 (NASB) 22 WHO COMMITTED NO SIN, NOR WAS ANY DECEIT FOUND IN HIS MOUTH; 1 Peter 2:22 (NASB) Chris | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 461 Registered: 7-2003 |
WHY DID JESUS SAY, 36 "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.î Matt 24:36? During the incarnation Jesus continued to exist as God and to be fully equal with God. However, during the incarnation, He also took on a human nature and sovereignly chose not to use all the powers and privileges of His divinity. He was fully God and fully man. He not only took on the form and nature of man, but He lived life as a man. During the incarnation Christ lived in dependence on Father and in complete obedience to the Father. (see Philippians 2:6-8). Jesus was 100% God and 100% man. In his human nature He was completely dependent upon the Father and chose not to rely on His omniscience, but to rely on the Father. But in his divine nature, as God, Jesus did know all things: 30 "Now we know that You know all things, and have no need for anyone to question You; by this we believe that You came from God." John 16:30 (NASB) Notice that after the resurrection He no longer includes Himself as not knowing: 6 So when they had come together, they were asking Him, saying, "Lord, is it at this time You are restoring the kingdom to Israel?" 7 He said to them, "It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority; Acts 1:6-8 (NASB) Chris | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 462 Registered: 7-2003 |
Speakeasy, I personally think there are some hints of the triune nature of God in Gen. 1:26, but it's not completely conclusive. As Colleen, says, the "us" and "our" could be analogous to the royal "we". I favor the former interpretation, but the latter may also be correct. What seems especially revealing to me is the use of Elohim "God" throughout the Hebrew Bible. The Bible is extrememly clear that there is only ONE Elohim, and yet Elohim is in a plural form. What should we make of this? Could it be a hint of the triune nature of the one God? Could be. As to why the Bible alternates between God (elohim) and LORD (YHWH) - Whenever you see the the word "LORD" in an English translation of the Hebrew Bible you are seeing the proper name of God (YHWH) represented. There is only ONE God and His name is YHWH so the two words both apply to the same Being. Chris | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 463 Registered: 7-2003 |
IF JESUS IS GOD, WHY IS HE THE ONE MEDIATOR BETWEEN GOD AND MAN Jesus can be the mediator between God and man precisely because He is 100% God and 100% man. According to Wayne Grudem in ìSystematic Theologyî, ìBecause we were alienated from God by sin, we needed someone to come between God and ourselves and bring us back to him. We needed a mediator who could represent us to God and who could represent God to us. There is only on person who has ever fulfilled that requirement: ëThere is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesusí (1 Tim. 2:5). In order to fulfill this role of mediator, Jesus had to be fully man as well as fully God.î -Grudem Chris | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 464 Registered: 7-2003 |
ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS I would like to thank everyone who has participated in this thread, read this thread, and provided encouragement to continue this thread. I especially appreciate the comments that the thread has been helpful and would be valuable as a unified study. After contemplating pulling this all into a single study, I have decided that it is probably impractical. The primary reason for my decision is the fact that I am so deeply indebted to so many reference works. I think there are slightly different standards that must be applied to a formal written paper, as opposed to an informal online conversation. In the latter I feel a need to cite sources when directly quoting, but I admit I am less fastidious about citing all the sources that I have culled information from when Iím speaking (typing) extemporaneously. However, if this were edited into a more formal work it would be proper to go back and meticulously add reference notes and bibliographical information. Since I havenít kept notes on any of this it seems overwhelming to even contemplate. I do want to take this opportunity though to acknowledge my indebtedness to several sources. I am afraid this list may not be complete, but it hopefully covers the main references in relative order of importance: - The Christian Research Institute (I am most deeply indebted to a position paper on the Trinity that provided both an outline and scripture that have defined this study. It could rightly be said that this study is merely an expansion of that brief position statement. I am also indebted to an article called ìLoving the trinityî by James R. White as well as a few other assorted CRI resources). - The NIV study Bible notes - The Christian Apologetic & Research Ministry (multiple articles) - Systematic Theology by Wayne Grudem - Essential Truths of the Christian Faith by RC Sproul - The complete Word Study Dictionary by Zodhiates - Early Christian Doctrines by JND Kelly - NASB Greek-Hebrew Dictionary - Strongís Greek-Hebrew Dictionary - Vineís Expository Dictionary - Multiple commentaries including: Wesley, Matthew Henry, JFB, McGee, Barnes, Barclay, and Adam Clarke - Probably other resources that I canít remember now. I would like to thank those of you who prayed for me during this study. Most importantly I would like to thank Jesus Christ our Lord, God, and Savior who sustained me on days when I was feeling low and wanted to check out. I really felt a sense of spiritual warfare during this thread and, real or imagined, it wore on me greatly. Iím going to take a bit of a vacation now. Iíll be back when Iím refreshed and ready to go again. Weíll see you all later. God bless! Chris | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 837 Registered: 12-2003 |
Thank you, Chris--we'll look forward to your return! Meanwhile, you'll still be in our prayers daily. Colleen |
