| Author | Message | ||
| Lucias |
As Adventists one thing you were always sure of "you had the Truth". You knew more than any other Christian you came in contact with outside the faith. Afterall didn't "they" say that "no one knows their Bible's as good as Adventists" ? As an Adventist you also always knew what it was, as a good Christian, that you should and should not do. Ok not everything, Mustard eating was OK in my house but not my wife's. But in general you had a very practical and detailed list of things to do and not to do. When you leave Adventism, as I did a couple years ago, you are faced with the Question of : "From an Applied and Practical point of view what does it mean to be a Christian ?". For me it took a while to finally reach this bedrock question. This question isn't "How is one saved ?" And the answer isn't "Trusting in Jesus", although that is true. Its more a practical thing. Adventism, whether you liked it or not gave you a very clear identity. This is something that I find much less true of Christianity now that I am no longer an Adventist. I'm curious how some of the rest of you have approached and answered this question. From my experience I went through a variety of phases. Since I'm fairly new here I'll take the bandwidth and walk through them. 0. Leading up to my decision to leave I became aware of a lot of problems with "The Truth". I studied in earnest and was unable to find any answers that would allow me any conclusion other than "The Truth" was anything but the Truth. I eventually realized this and realized the beauty and simplicity of the Gospel. I left Adventism. 1. I was euphoric, I was free. The reality of the Cross , the Resurrection, the New Covenant took on a meaning like I'd never experienced. 2. At the same time as #1 or shortly thereafter I realized I had a lot of unaswered questions about what precisely composed truth. I set out in earnest to nail down all the loose doctrinal ends. 3. As a result of engaging in #2 for a long time I eventually became dragged down. Study of this nature is not nourishing to the soul. I therefore quit studying at all for a good while. As a result I drifted. I tended to withdraw from the limited circles of Christian interaction I was engaged in. 4. As I continued along I realized that I needed a different kind of study. I needed "inspiration". I began, and continue, to find a great benefit from non-doctrinal more devotional reading. At some point I realized I really needed to re-integrate with those I had drifted away from. 5. As I start trying to re-integrate I find that it can be quite challenging to interact with some. Not because they aren't accepting, loving, etc. but rather because our perspectives are so different. My background gives me, what I feel and find, little in common with a lot of others in the Christian Church. Many times I have certain built in assumptions that others not only don't have but when they are explained would result in puzzled looks. Recently this has surfaced as a fair bit of anger towards the entire deception called Adventism. So now a couple years later I find myself starting at the begininning so to speak. And I am asking, and to myself for now answering, what does it really practically speaking mean to be a Christian. Invariably I find my approach being : trying to nail down doctrine, trying to nail down behavior, etc. I find myself knee-jerking whenever someone "provides the answers" on any topic simply because I don't believe anythign I can't nail down clearly for myself. At the same time I find there are things that we will never clearly know this side of the Jordan. Although I've outlined this in detail here it isn't as if I feel this is an insurmountable phase. I have faith that as I walk along I will grow to understand more. So to wind down a long winded post. I guess I wanted to share a bit about my walk and where I am at. I also wanted to find out what some others have found as they asked and faced similar questions...... Regards. Lucias | ||
| Lydell |
Lucias asked: "From an Applied and Practical point of view what does it mean to be a Christian ?". Lucias, to me it doesn't have to do with doctrines, or what is right or wrong to do. The essence of being a Christian is having a relationship with Jesus in the same way you have a relationship with a friend. You spend time together, talk together, listen to the friend, show appreciation for what the friend does and who the friend is... It's from spending time with the Friend that I begin to take on the Friend's attitude toward other people and the things happening around me. It's the being together constantly that causes my heart to come into agreement with what the Friend likes for me to do, where my Friend likes for me to go, rather than looking for a list of what is right and wrong. You know, in many ways leaving Adventism is not that vastly different from what many others in the Christian community face. We realize this more all the time. Our pastor, and his wife, were raised in Catholic homes. Each was THE first, as far as they knew, in their families for many generations to not be Catholic. In the pastors family, Italian Catholics at that!, he was the first Christian. Certainly they both experienced many of the same problems with family that many of you have expressed here. I know a couple folks who were raised Mennonite. It was a massive change of lifestyle for them when they left their church undoubtedly. One tells of the family being certain he was now doomed. My husband was raised in a non-Christian home. He experienced rejection from his family over his decision. And loss of friends. I've known those who were raised in homes where satan was worshipped. Talk about a change of life for them! And those who are leaving alcoholism and drug addiction certainly find themselves with no friends and not a clue who they are now. How about the former prostitue who was raised in an alcoholic and abusive family? They have dropped onto a different planet! I'm not demeaning what you are saying about how you feel. I remember the time of feeling so off balance...kind of like my skin didn't fit right. Just trying to get you to see that just maybe you really are NOT so different from so many after all. (It may be so in the particular circle of Christians you have been around. Sometimes there are! churches where it seems virtually everyone was born and raised in a solid Christian home, and those who come in with other backgrounds just keep it to themselves for some reason.) But it isn't so everywhere. Don't know if any of that helps your thinking, and maybe I'm just missing the point of your questions altogether? I've been known to do that! ha | ||
| Sabra |
Lucias, I could put a big ditto on your post. When I realized the gospel, I felt like I'd been on a very strict diet for a long time and was finally able to eat "real food" again! I had to ask God "What is You want me to do?" I don't have a specific day to worship, I don't have certain foods to eat, it's alright if I wear jewelry, so, what do You want me to do? He said, "In all you do, do it to My glory" That was simple enough! :)Sometimes we just gotta ask! | ||
| Colleentinker |
Lucias, I think I do understand what you're asking. Lydell makes a good point that this "misfitting" is not uniqueóalthough every time we experience something, it is, in a sense, unique to us. But know that you are in good company. We also began realizing that Christians don't agree on all points. For us the centering focus has been literally nourishing our relationship with Jesus. I really know of no substitute for literally studying the Bible regularly with prayers for the Holy Spirit to guide me to know what He wants me to know, reveal the truth from the passages that He wants me to learn, and to help me to know Him in a new and deeper way. There are some things of which I'm far less sure than I used to beóeschatalogical things, for instance! But other things are more certain to me continuouslyóthings such as the reality of Jesus and the dependability of the Bible. The more I study, the more it fits together, and the less confusing it seems. As I've studied and learned, I've become more and more deeply convinced that my identity is first and deepest "Daughter of God" and "Belongs to Jesus." Everything else is secondary: wife, mother, teacher, church member, group Bible study participant, etc. This identity gives me stability when those around me disagree with each other or even with me. Here's what I've observed. I'm not making any declarations written on stone, but my limited observations have led to to the following conclusions (which may be subject to change as I continue to live!): The more committed a person is to knowing the truth, the more committed a person is to allowing Jesus to live through them, and the more consistently a person studies the Scriptures with a prayer to know truth, the more consistent those people's understandings of eternal things become, both within themselves and with other Christ-followers. If a person has an "agenda" or a favorite spiritual theory and studies to confirm those things, he can manage to build himself an arugment. But his conclusions begin to ring untrue when compared to Scripture and when compared to objective statements of truth, such as the Apostles' Creed. I believe there are many doctrinal points that can be interpreted in varying ways. Doctrines do not determine how a Christian acts and looks. But the changed life does reflect the presence of Christ. The presence of the Holy Spirit in the life produces certain consistent fruit: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. (Gal. 5:22-23) These things are the mark of God on us. Christ-followers will be gifted by the Holy Spirit in many different ways, according to the will of God. (see 1 Corinthians 12-14) The fruit, however, is evident in all Christ-followers. Of course, we grow in the fruit as we grow in Christ, but the Holy Spirit is God's mark upon us. I was so excited last week when we studied 2 Corinthians 1:21-22 where Paul says, "He anointed us, set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a depoist, guaranteeing what is to come." The Holy Spirit is our anointing, or our commission AND our equipping for ministry. (see 1 John 2:20, 27) The Holy Spirit is also God's seal. It is his mark that is a tangible sign that we belong to him. People who are compromised with evil are uncomfortable in the presence of a born-again Christ-follower. A born-again Christ-follower can sense when he is in the presence of another born-again person. The Holy Spirit is also a clear sign to the spiritual powers of the universe, including the evil powers and authorities Paul mentions in Colossians, that we belong to God. When God seals us with his Spirit, the whole universe can tell that we are God's. Isn't that amazing? Third, the Holy Spirit guarantees to us that our born-again reality is only the beginning. Not only are our souls redeemed, but our bodies ultimately will be also. We will experience the fullness of intimacy with Christ as both spiritual and physically glorified human children of God. So, Lucias, what does a Christian believe? Ultimately, that answer has to be, he ore she believes Jesus died for his sins, rose again, ascended to His Father, and equips and seals us with the indwelling Holy Spirit. After that, we spend time studying God's word, pray, ask for a deepening relationship, ask for deeper understanding of truth, and ask for protection against deception. God is faithful. You can absolutely rest in your new identity! God is now responsible for your spiritual understanding. Your response is only to say "Yes" when He reveals truth, however small or uncomfortable that kernel of truth might be. And again I come back to Lydell's post above: you are not alone! Just focus on Jesus, and you will gradually discover what a Christian believes! Grateful for the reality of Jesus, Colleen | ||
| Sammi |
amen colleen! did you ever consider being a preacher? you write and illustrate beautifully. God uses you to inspire and encourage, thank you! and i thank Him! love and prayers, carol | ||
| Lucias |
Your comments are appreciated. Lydell points out the true fact that we all have a lot of similarities in our differences. And in my head I know that. But in my 'heart', that non-rational part of me I'd like to pretend doesn't exist, sometimes it gets a little fuzzy. I realize that I am in the middle of a journey. I am, so to speak, crossing a chasm. And as with many of us there is alot more than just doctrine and denomination in our situation. There is that practical part of being a Christian which isn't always nailed down. Colleen, you say many valid and correct things. I do agree with you. For example you cite the transforming power of Christ in the life, prayer, bible study etc. And of course the spirit and the proofs of the spirit "Love joy peace kindness goodness meekness and self control". My original question was more of the practical and applied point of view. With the exception of study of the scriptures these aren't necessarily very "applied". They are more general in nature. I find that we as Christians seem to want to give nice warm fuzzy answers but not very specific in application. And coming from my background I understand completely why we do that. When we get to specific we wind up judging each other instead of judging ourselves. But to me, when I read Christ's words I find he was a very applied person. Doctrine is not what its about. Its about applying love and mercy. Those who he welcomes are not those who have correct doctrine but those who fed and clothed the poor and needy. That is the basis of his "away from me I never knew you" statement. James shows that the way to mercy is to show mercy and the way to damnation is to not be merciful. Christ told the parable of the man who had been forgiven a large debt, who then refused to forgive a small debt owed him. The parable also demonstrated the response of the king. I believe there is a direct application to salvation there. But then you get down to the practical application of love and mercy. And thats where things can get complicated fast. Sometimes being Loving and Merciful to one means being Ruthless and Unswervingly unmerciful to another whom you are also to love. This is most problematic when the people involved are family. This is true in my case. I'm not one to get into all the dirty details. So if I'm seeming vauge its because I'm vauge. I understand the free, unmerited gift of Salvation, available only to us out of Grace not by works. But as Christians we are to "Love one another as I have loved you". But sometimes we have to make hard practical non-theoretical choices. While you think the choice you make is out of Love for the one and why you must oppose the other you also know that you are not perfect either. You have sustained damage along the way. And to what extent does this damage cloud your judgement now. Are you really making this decision out of Love for the other. In my case I believe that I am. But at the same time the decisions I have had to make have caused, and continue to cause, awful pain to another whom I am also to love. The question I ask every day is was there some other way ? I am taking a very dangerous road here because I am willfully choosing to be unmerciful. And I understand clearly the consequences of being unnecissarily harsh. In my head I know the answer. It is this. When God told us in the old testament to "contend for the widow at the gate" he did so knowing that to do so we would have to be as fierce as that which we opposed. This is the same reason why when he returns with Judgment and wrath it will not be "unmerciful" but rather "merciful". To those who suffer wrath it will seem unmerciful. But to those who are spared any further torment in this confused fallen world it will be merciful. Until we are free of this we probably won't understand how merciful it will be. Like I said I know this "in my head" but "in my heart" I am always troubled. I guess unless you have had to make a hard decision, and make it every day, you don't understand what it is I am rambling about. If I have made no sense whatsoever I apologize. But its something that I mull over a little every day. Regards, Lucias | ||
| Lucias |
Your comments are appreciated. Lydell points out the true fact that we all have a lot of similarities in our differences. And in my head I know that. But in my 'heart', that non-rational part of me I'd like to pretend doesn't exist, sometimes it gets a little fuzzy. I realize that I am in the middle of a journey. I am, so to speak, crossing a chasm. And as with many of us there is alot more than just doctrine and denomination in our situation. There is that practical part of being a Christian which isn't always nailed down. Colleen, you say many valid and correct things. I do agree with you. For example you cite the transforming power of Christ in the life, prayer, bible study etc. And of course the spirit and the proofs of the spirit "Love joy peace kindness goodness meekness and self control". My original question was more of the practical and applied point of view. With the exception of study of the scriptures these aren't necessarily very "applied". They are more general in nature. I find that we as Christians seem to want to give nice warm fuzzy answers but not very specific in application. And coming from my background I understand completely why we do that. When we get to specific we wind up judging each other instead of judging ourselves. But to me, when I read Christ's words I find he was a very applied person. Doctrine is not what its about. Its about applying love and mercy. Those who he welcomes are not those who have correct doctrine but those who fed and clothed the poor and needy. That is the basis of his "away from me I never knew you" statement. James shows that the way to mercy is to show mercy and the way to damnation is to not be merciful. Christ told the parable of the man who had been forgiven a large debt, who then refused to forgive a small debt owed him. The parable also demonstrated the response of the king. I believe there is a direct application to salvation there. But then you get down to the practical application of love and mercy. And thats where things can get complicated fast. Sometimes being Loving and Merciful to one means being Ruthless and Unswervingly unmerciful to another whom you are also to love. This is most problematic when the people involved are family. This is true in my case. I'm not one to get into all the dirty details. So if I'm seeming vauge its because I'm vauge. I understand the free, unmerited gift of Salvation, available only to us out of Grace not by works. But as Christians we are to "Love one another as I have loved you". But sometimes we have to make hard practical non-theoretical choices. While you think the choice you make is out of Love for the one and why you must oppose the other you also know that you are not perfect either. You have sustained damage along the way. And to what extent does this damage cloud your judgement now. Are you really making this decision out of Love for the other. In my case I believe that I am. But at the same time the decisions I have had to make have caused, and continue to cause, awful pain to another whom I am also to love. The question I ask every day is was there some other way ? I am taking a very dangerous road here because I am willfully choosing to be unmerciful. And I understand clearly the consequences of being unnecissarily harsh. In my head I know the answer. It is this. When God told us in the old testament to "contend for the widow at the gate" he did so knowing that to do so we would have to be as fierce as that which we opposed. This is the same reason why when he returns with Judgment and wrath it will not be "unmerciful" but rather "merciful". To those who suffer wrath it will seem unmerciful. But to those who are spared any further torment in this confused fallen world it will be merciful. Until we are free of this we probably won't understand how merciful it will be. Like I said I know this "in my head" but "in my heart" I am always troubled. I guess unless you have had to make a hard decision, and make it every day, you don't understand what it is I am rambling about. If I have made no sense whatsoever I apologize. But its something that I mull over a little every day. Regards, Lucias | ||
| Lydell |
Well, yeah, what you have said is pretty vague. So I'm just going to pick up one thing to comment one. You said: "I am taking a very dangerous road here because I am willfully choosing to be unmerciful. And I understand clearly the consequences of being unnecissarily harsh." The best I can do is come up with an example. That would be dealing with someone who is an alcoholic. If you are the family member who has to deal with them, then you can act in a loving way, while still refusing to hand them cash when asked for money. You act out of love when you refuse to wake them up so they can get to work on time, even tho you know if they don't show up on time they will be fired. In those cases, being loving requires you to not protect them from the results of their rotten choices. You aren't being "unmerciful" in those situations. You are, instead, acting out of the deepest love. They are a sick person, true. But they have to be placed in a situation of having to face this fact about themselves before they can get help. (Or as a psychiatrist friend has said, "how many psychiatrists does it take to change a lightbulb? Only one. But the lightbulb has to really want to change." There's a heck of a lot of truth in that!) Until the alcoholic is forced to face themselves and take responsibilities for their actions, they will never change. That same scenario would apply to so many situations....a kid not doing homework, an adult child not getting a job or meeting their financial responsibilities, turning in someone who you know(and know with absolute certainty) is abusing or repeatedly neglecting a child. Stepping in and "helping" is not always the loving solution. Unfortunately it is one of those things that is so poorly understood in our culture today and so far too many parents keep "helping" their children until they have made them crippled. The clue in what you have said up there to me is "unnecessarily harsh". In the above examples, it may be "harsh" but certainly it is not "unnecessary". You may cause "hurt" to a family member when you leave Adventism. If you are acting in good concience before God by following him, and you have not deliberately or willfully insulted or ridiculed them (I mean doing it intentionally to cause hurt, of course), then if they have decided to be "hurt" that is not your responsibility. You are responsible to speak what God gives you to speak, do what He gives you to do, and He takes the responsibility for the results. It always comes down to a matter of going to the Lord and asking Him to help you weigh out your attitude in what you are doing. You have to examine your motives. Let's use the example of being around an SDA family member. You can say, "well, I just can't be around them anymore because there is just so much turmoil and grief that it is just causing hurt to me spiritually." There are times when that may be the only solution, for a time. If they are so miserable being around you, you may have to remove yourself from their presence to protect them. Or you may have to make yourself scarce for a time because they are continually causing you confusion. But, it is also likely that in your heart you can be constantly gleefully watching for an opportunity to slam them...then you obviously have the greater spiritual problem and to remove yourself from spending time around them will resolve nothing. These examples have nothing to do with doctrine, but with the attitude of the heart toward God and toward the individual. Unfortunately we can choose to declare we are "upholding doctrine" when we are just plain not willing to be loving toward someone. It happens far too often in churches with folks not being willing to show mercy toward the stumbling fellow Christian. Yeah, a particular part of their doctrine may be totally screwed up (for instance, a woman who is just a bit too friendly toward the men). But it just might be that the Lord is working way down at the root of the problem (a total inablity to receive love because of past wounds) so the surface stuff is taken care of. And it's incumbent on the mature believers to find ways to love the person (in the example, the men knowing to keep away from her, never be alone with her, and the women to take steps to intentionally include her in their activities) until they get their act straightened out. It doesn't mean you ignore blatant sin. But you do find ways to work with them. I'm I getting close at all to what you want addressed? Maybe you can help us out here with an example that could be kind of similar to what you are facing. | ||
| Lori |
What does it mean to be Christian? It's simple.....and it has nothing to do with behavior patterns or lifestyle. But what does it means to be a Christian?? Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved. Period. That's what it means to be a Christian. The Jews had a real problem with the Christian church because it didn't embrace what THEY had determined to be the spiritual way of life. What does it mean to be a Christian? It means that if a non-believer can do it then it is NOT part of the Christian life. A non-believer in Christ can abstain from various food--they can even be vegetarian. They can abstain from alcohol. They can even avoid "fun" activities on Saturday. An unbeliever can even "guard the edges of the Sabbath". An unbeliever can tithe and give to every needy person. An unbeliever can sit through endless numbers of sermons. An unbeliever can be incredibly moral; they can be great neighbors. They can be sweet, kind, considerate, giving....the list goes on and on. There is only one thing the unbeliever can not do. He can not fake a relationship with Jesus Christ. When we hear the gospel message and respond positively to it---we are a Christian from that moment forward. We have options from that moment forward that an unbeliever will never have. We also have the option to never use these benefits. As a Christian we are commanded to grow in Grace. This means that we are growing under a system that is not based on any merit. Which means that our overt actions don't earn us points with God. What does it mean to be a Christian? It means that you heard the Gospel. And you believed in Jesus Christ. It means you are reconciled with God. Romns 5:10; 2 Cor. 5:20 Eph 2:14-17 It means you are redeemed Roms 3:24 It means your condemnation has been removed Rom 8:1 John 3:18 It means you are crucified with Christ-Rom 6:6 Dead with Christ-Rom 6:8 Buried with Christ Rom 6:4 Raised with Christ Raom 6:4 Col 3:1 It means you are free from the Mosaic law Rom 7:4; Rom 6:14 2 Cor 3:11 Gal 3:25 I'm not going to post Scriptures for the following but there is more: It means you are regenerated, adopted by God, made acceptable to God It means you are justified. It means you have the availability of divine power. It means you are guaranteed a heavenly citizenship based upon reconciliation. You are delivered from the kingdom of Satan, transferred into God's kingdom. It means you are on the secure foundation of Jesus Christ. It means you are a gift from God the Father to Christ. It means you have eternal security. It means you have access to God. The believer (Christian) is an heir with Christ, given a new position in Christ, recipient of eternal life, reciepient of the ministries of the Holy Spirit, glorified, complete in Christ, possessor of every spiritual blessing. There is more. But as you can see the Christian way of life has very little to do with WHAT YOU DO. | ||
| Colleentinker |
I like what Lori said above: You cannot fake a relationship with Christ. That goes hand-in-hand with Lydell's comments about following Christ (not doctrine!) cause pain to people you love if they are not willing to follow Christ as well. I guess the reason my comments above sounded theoretical is that the way a Christian behaves is completely dependent upon his relationship with Jesus and what nudges the Holy Spirit gives him in particular situations. When you walk with Jesus, there is no formula for our interactions. Our guide is to keep our eyes focused on Jesus, and He gives us his wisdom in given situations. Sometimes we do behave in ways that are not God's ideal for us. But the measure of our behavior is not what we do, but how we nurture our relationships with Jesus. In reality, I've discovered that, as Jesus said, the gospel really does bring a sword to relationships between believers and unbelievers. And, as Lydell also pointed out, sometimes the loving thing to do causes deep hurt. Part of a Christian's calling is to live for truth. Living for truth means not ignoring the unhealthiness that defines relationships we might have lived with for years. I'm realizing more and more that being a Christian means focusing on Jesus. The new birth really does give us a new reality. We really can have the mind of Christ (1 Cor. 2:16) Jesus completely turns upside down our previous understandings of "love". It is more accountable and more loyal and more self-sacrificing and more truthful than I, at least, ever could have imagined. Only focusing on Jesus gives us the ability to deal in a truthful, Christ-like way with the specific issues in our lives. There's really no external formula! Praising God for giving us his love and teaching us his truth, Colleen | ||
| Lori |
Luke 12 51-54 "Do you think I came to bring peace on earth?" "No, I tell you, but division." "From now on there will be five in one family divided against each other, three against two and two against three." "They will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law." | ||
| Lucias |
I appreciate all the responses I have gotten. Lydell asks : ;Am I getting close at all to what you want ;addressed? Maybe you can help us out here with ;an example that could be kind of similar to what ;you are facing. You pretty close in your examples. In my case what I am dealing with is a family member who has taken a course of extreme slander against almost every other family member. If there is dirt to be shared it is shared. If there is no dirt then they make up something horrible and tell others. Additionally In multiple cases they have, among other things, volunteered to care for someones kids, sometimes family sometimes strangers, then turned and attempted to charge them with abandonment and work to obtain custody of those children themselves. They have moved in with senior citizens. Then they have attempted through willfull slander, and factually inaccurate statements, to gain control of that persons assets. The doctors involved in this case figured out the story was bunk and got the appropriate state agencies involved. The number of relationships that have been deeply scarred, destroyed, and otherwise mucked up as a result is legion. There are other examples and lots of details but I don't like to get to detailed. I have already done so far more than I wished. When I used to live with this family member I endured a lot of pain. I went away for a long time. Couple years back when I became a Christian ( I was raised SDA but I view the two as seperate things ) I began to work on putting a lot of things back together. Selfless Christian Love etc. The slander etc. has only continued. Despite overtures of friendship and reconciliation this person continues to slander not only myself but many other family members to all they meet. I have realized that I am not alone in this. My wife and children are at risk. Despite being under the charge to provide for ones family, which I will do as commanded in Timothy, I must cutoff all contact with this person. I will provide for physical needs but only with money and only through an intermediary. I have concluded this because proximity to my family only gives the opportunity for the destruction, in the eyes of my children, of other family members who do not need their repuations shattered. And proximity to my family allows this person the credibility to destroy us as well. The point to which things have sunk is so bad that I do not feel there is any point in continuing to dialouge on this point with that person. Words to my face would be sweet and happy but only to my face. Credibility is destroyed to the point that I feel I must never trust it again. To engage in trust would only jepordize others I love as well. Disowning a family member is the hardest thing I've ever done and not something I would do if I thought there was any other way. Hence my question "What does it mean to be a Christian" not in, what I call theoretical ( ie. Us to God ) but in what I call a practical ( ie. Person to Person day to day ) manner. Christ, James, and Paul all teach that we must "Love One Another as I have loved you", "If one does not provide for his family he has disowned the faith", "Mercy will be shown to him who has been merciful, but to him who has not been merciful ....." This is a very hard point for me. Especially when as Christians we are to be "Loving". And I understand the answer in my head but in my heart there is only pain. Hence I wind up in a conflicted state. Thats what drives my questions. I hope that is enough detail because I won't go deeper. Thanks for listening. | ||
| In_his_service |
Lucias, Didn't even Jesus have problems with some people? Did His love for them require Him to "take" what he knew to be deliberate, destructive behavior? Did He not use some very hostile language towards some, who were using deceit and slander to hurt others? Being a Cbristian requires us to love our brother, and pray for his soul. We are to share the gospel with them and lead them to Christ. I don't believe we are required to place our children or families at risk from destructive behavior. In fact, is it not counter-productive to the cause of leading one to Christ, to condone evil doing in the name of "Christian" getting along? Love this person. Let them know that you and Jesus love them. Pray for them. BUT do not become the preverbial "doormat", just because THEY choose to be destructive to all around them. Soli Deo gloria Thomas <>< | ||
| Colleentinker |
Lucias, your are doing the right thing. You can't continue to have "normal" relationships with people who are exploiting others. Not only can you not trust them, but continuing a semblance of "normal" contact plays into their evil. Your continued association will give a silent assent to their connivings, and they may even claim you as a family member or friend in order to gain acceptance or entrance with people they want to impress or further exploit. Paul gives straight advice in 1 Corinthians 5:1-5 about how to deal corporately with a brother who persists in engaging in sin. He says to "hand this man over to Satan, so that the sinful nature may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord." He is not advocating shunning and permanent exclusion, but he is saying to put him out of fellowship so he may be driven to repentance and eventual restoration. You are right; you cannot risk your family by continuing to relate to a person who will exploit or otherwise misuse them. I am sorry,Lucias. Your heart will hurt, not only for the severed relationship, but also for the deep connection you have with a person you love but with whom you cannot be intimate. I will pray that you will know how to love this person for God. Colleen | ||
| Lydell |
I'd agree with what the others have already said, Lucias. I know it has to be an awfully tough place to be in. Yes, we are called to care for family members, including honoring our parents. But, your number one responsibility is to care for your spouse and children, to protect and provide for them. And that may mean putting a protective barrier up between them and this person. Hm, you know, when I wrote before I started to use an example that I have seen. Someone in a family has said cruel, untrue things about another, indeed about every other member of the family at one point. But more particularly the venom seems to be aimed at one person. They can't seem to get along at all. So the one who is the frequent target has had to remove herself from virtually all contact with the person. Yes, we are called to witness. But there is that bit about not "casting your pearls before swine". You know,I really don't think that comment was intended as a slander against someone. Rather it was just spoken as the reality of what happens when you attempt to witness to someone who isn't in the least open to hear. They can't recognize a pearl cast in front of their face. Yeah, we are told to turn the other cheek. But you know, even the disciples realized that there was a time to shake the dust off their sandals and move on. Maybe for you that means that you lay out clearly in a letter what this persons hurtful actions have meant to you. How you have been harmed. Lay out for them that you love them, that God loves them and how He wants to change them and give them a life worth living. Explain that while you deeply desire to have a HEALTHY (there's the key word) adult relationship with them, that it can't rely on the actions of only you yourself. That if they ever desire to get counselling so that they are able to do that, then you will be willing to talk. But that until that time comes, you cannot continue to allow them to hurt you or have access to cause hurt to your family. Whether they choose to read, or acknowledge, the letter or not is not your responsibility. But at least you can go on record as having made the attempt. Would other family members (brothers and sisters or whatever) be willing to go along with this and sign as well? Your attitude here is not that you are permanently writing them out of your life, but that THEY are FORCING the break UNTIL they have gotten help (not before they get help, after). I'm suggesting a letter because my guess is this is someone who it is entirely impossible to sit and converse with and have them be honest to your face. And keep a copy of the letter!! AND I can tell you from family experience, you would be VERY well advised to give a copy of that letter to family members the same day you send it to this person! I can't begin to stress that strongly enough! Really, it sounds like you are in very little different a situation from dealing with an alcoholic. This person has the same sort of addiction or sickness. By continuing to allow them access to cause hurt, you only can enable them to continue their behavior. So what is being accomplished? I had a brother who had Vietnam Delayed Stress Syndrome. Yes, he was genuinely mentally ill. My parents, in particular, would ignore his wrong behavior, the way he treated them, his children, his irresponsibility from an attitude of "he's sick and can't stop himself". They did it for years, as did everyone around him. Everyone tried to "help" by "taking it". You know Lucias, it didn't stop him from eventually committing suicide. And I have to wonder, would it have been different if everyone had joined together and confronted him and said "deal with your problem or don't, but you aren't going to infect everyone around you in the meantime." All too likely it would have made no difference whatsoever, of course. But you know, I think some folks might not carry now certain scars that were inflicted over those years. YOU may be able to deal with the scars that have been inflicted. Will your children be able to do so? | ||
| Brianglass |
Lucias, Step back for a moment and look at what you have done. You have cut off a family member for the sake of other family members. Or more acurately as someone earlier put it, your family member has by his/her own attitudes and actions cut themselves off from you. If you step back far enough you realize that this is exactly what God has experienced with a large percentage of the human race. It's gotta hurt or he wouldn't have been so serious about it that he let his own son die in order to bring some of us back. We are made in the image of God and God has been through everything you have and more, therefore God knows exactly how you feel. And now you have just a little bit of an idea how rotten God feels that he's losing so many family members. You are indeed in good company. brian@glassbrian.com | ||
| Lori |
Lucias, God's word speaks directly to the circumstances that you are struggling with--you are not wrong in having nothing to do with this person! 2 Timothy 3:1-5 "There will be terrible times in the last days. People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, without love, unforgiving, SLANDEROUS, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God-- having a form of godliness but denying its power. HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH THEM." Titus 3:10 also says, "Warn a divisive person once, and then warn him a second time. After that, HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH HIM." Know this--there are fellow believers in Jesus Christ who are lifting you up to the Lord in prayer. Lori | ||
| Jtree (Jtree) |
Parable of the Dead Church A person once called a pastor to say he wanted to join the church. But, he went on to explain that he didn't want to worship every week, study the Bible, visit the sick, witness to non-Christians, or serve as a leader or teacher. The pastor commended him for his desire to join, but told him the church he sought was located in another section of town. The man took the directions and hung up. When he arrived at the church, the man came face to face with the logical result of his own apathetic attitude. There stood an abandoned church meeting house, boarded up and ready for demolition. Joshua (didn't know where to put this one at). | ||
| Lucias (Lucias) |
Its been a long time since I started this thread. The comments you all have shared are appreciated. While I understand at one level what you tell me there is another emotional level. The situation I wound up in really made me feel about as unloving and unforgiving as anything I've ever done. To be honest I feel downright mean at times. I went through a period where I felt like there was no way to reconcile what I had to do with the command to be merciful. "To him who has not shown mercy mercy will not be shown" James loose paraphrase. I felt like I would likely go to hell as a result of this decision. However I felt so strongly about what I had to do that I did not care and did it anyway. There is a reason Paul says in Romans 14 that you should not do what you feel is wrong. The reason is the impact it has on you personally. Instead of moving closer to God and getting his support I stomped off on my own for a good while. I decided just to leg it out for a bit. That doesn't work well....... (FWIW: I'm still financially supporting the individual that I'm involved in this situation with so to some extent I'm still provding for the needs and honoring them. Its taken a while to come to grips with this. And almost every day I try to figure a way out of this ditch so I can reunite w/o exposing my family to the pain. Someday if I can solve that puzzle I'll build a bridge). Last week I sat back down a read some scripture again. Hadn't done that in several months. At the risk of sounding cliche I think of the footprints poem and the "it was then I carried you" line. God put a wonderful wife in my life who although we don't see eye to eye all the time ( does any married couple see eye to eye all the time ;-) she loves me and keeps bringing me around. Were it not for her and her family I probably wouldn't be a Christian today. Through my wife and my daughter I made some transitions this past year. We changed from a large ( several thousand per service ) church to a small local community church, say a couple hundred in attendance. I wanted to do this because while I don't believe that tradition is gospel I don't think the complete modernization of a service is good either. This place has a balance, some old some new. Also a smaller family church would be better for her especially as it has members throughout our local neighborhood to give her godly families to associate with. Its a vibrant church and my wife is already being pressed into service, participating in weekly studies, helping with the wee-ones, etc. This in turn is having its effect on me and I'm starting to heal from the pain I've been through this year. I guess I'm starting to put my feet back down and walk with God again instead of letting him carry me ( pretending all the while I was doing it on my own ). There is another interesting event as a result of this painful experience/year. That is I've shed the mantle of identity which was causing me so much conflict. I don't think of myself as an "adventist" or even as a former anymore. I'm just a Christian. Further the need to figure out to the Nth detail all the doctrinal puzzles that my mind can think up has left. The gospel is simple, right and wrong are straightforward. There is no need to complicate the scripture by trying to make it all fit together into a single cohesive thing called "The Truth". Rather it just is Truth even if I can't comprehend it all and I'm OK with that. Part of that was time, part of it was time, part of it was the fact that now I come from a differnent background when I approach this local congregation, part of it is the realization that most folks simply don't care where you came from just that you are there. So if there is a point to this rambling post it would be this. God holds on to us even if we don't want him to. And somehow even really hard times bring some positive changes along with the pain. Thanks and here's hoping you all had a good Thanksgiving. | ||
| Lydell (Lydell) |
Lucias, so glad you are back. Sorry to hear about the pain you have been through. I remember after our daughter's stillbirth stumbling on a verse in II Tim that says, "when we are faithless, He is faithful, for He cannot forget His own". It's taken a bit out of the context, yet the Lord really used that verse to assure me that He was there thru the darkness. Like you said, the positive changes come along with the pain. Or as I heard on the radio this week, "the only way you know you have faith is when you go thru hard times". So Lucias, now is definitely the time to get back into the Word! You know, it might benefit you to get something like The Message New Testament to read for a bit. I can't recommend it enough. You said that you had been really caught up in the minutia of doctrine in the past. The Message is written in a more casual every day language. And because of that difference in the normal style of scripture that we are accustomed to reading some passages will just really hit you with their full impact of meaning. It's more like setting down with your Friend right beside you and talking in a straightforward way with you. Saying it so clearly that you can't possibly be distracted or struggle with understanding what is meant or how to apply it. It really might be a way of getting you jump started back into more in depth study. Only you and the Lord can get together to figure out if you have done the right thing or not. But you know Lucias, doing the right thing doesn't always mean you are going to have good feelings about it. (and I know that may not apply to your situation now at all! just speaking generally here) Really, when it comes to taking the radical step of having to cut off communication with a family member, even for you or your families protection, and you DON'T hurt a bit over it, that is when you know you are in serious trouble. At any rate, happy to hear that you are learning and stretching. Praying for you today. |
