| Author | Message | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 206 Registered: 4-2000 |
Just as universalism is the rage in liberal Christianity, so too annihilation is gaining momentum in conservative Christian circles. The question of course is-- is annihilationism biblical? First, common sense dictates that a God of love and justice does not arbitarily annihilate the crowning jewels of his creation. Far from rubbing us out, He graciously provides us the freedom to choose between redemption and rebellion. It would be a horrific evil to think that God would create people with freedom of choice and then annihilate them because of their choices. Furthermore, common sense leads to the conclusion that nonexistence is not better than existence since nonexistence is nothing at all--as Norman Geisler aptly puts it, "to affirm that nothing can be better than something is a gigantic category mistake." It also is crucial to recognize that not all existence in hell is equal. We may safely conclude that the torment of Hitler's hell will greatly exceed the torment experienced by a garden-variety pagan. God is perfectly just, and each person who spurns his grace will suffer exactly what he deserves (Luke 12:47-48; Matthew 16:27; Colossians 3:25; Revelation 20:11-15; Proverbs 24:12). Finally, humans are fashioned in the very image of God; therefore, to eliminate them would do violence to his nature. The alternative to annihilation is quarantine. And is precisely what hell is. CREDIT: The excerpts above were taken from Hank Hanegraaff's book entitled, "The Bible Answer Book," pp. 216 & 218. | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 207 Registered: 4-2000 |
CORRECTION: The last sentence above should read as follows: "And that is precisely what hell is." Dennis J. Fischer | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 565 Registered: 7-2003 |
I'm curious why SDAs are so dogmatic about that topic? Like soulsleep, does it really change how one lives? I just don't understand the passion behind their view of this topic. I don't see that much passion for Christ in the SDAs I know, but talk about state of the dead or eternity and you will get a firestorm. | ||
| Freeatlast Registered user Username: Freeatlast Post Number: 220 Registered: 5-2002 |
Because EGW said so, and it helps form the core of their identity as SDA's. Just an ego thing... | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 886 Registered: 12-2003 |
Oh, yes--soul sleep, I've come to believe, is the bedrock heresy of Adventism. Because of Adventists' belief in the spirit being merely "breath", they have skewed their teaching of the nature of sin, the nature of salvation, the nature of God's justice, and the nature of Christ. If spirit is merely "breath", then when we die, we have nowhere to go but the grave, like animals. If spirit is merely "breath", then Adam and Eve's sin was more physical than spiritual. What is "spirtiual" if the human spirit is merely breath? If spirit is merely "breath", then what exactly is the original sin we all inherit from Adam? It must be physical--it must be sin-damaged genes that set us up to commit our own sins. If spirit is something that knows God, on the other hand, the sin we inherit is a dead spirit--a literal spirit disconnected from God and from the source of Life. If spirit is merely breath, then did Jesus inherit Mary's sinful flesh or not? If he did, then how could He be said to be without sin? If he did not, then how could He be said to be our example? He would have had an "advantage" over us--and Ellen (and my Bible teachers) clearly taught me that Jesus had no advantage over me. He was human just like I am--and therefore His example means I, too, can become perfect. The church has never settled the argument over Jesus' nature. Ellen spoke out of both sides of her mouth on this question, and the church does not have an official stance on whether or not Jesus had sinful flesh or not. If, on the other hand, spirit is something volitional that knows God, then whether or not Jesus inherited Mary's genes is a moot point regarding His sinlessness. He was conceived by the Holy Spirit. He was born without original sin; His spirit was connected to God from conception on. All of us must be born again by the Spirit; Jesus did not have to be born again; He was born spiritually alive. If spirit is breath, then salvation is a physical phenomenon. Sin is in my genes, and sin is about my flesh causing me to commit sins. Salvation, then, must be about correcting or overcoming my sinful flesh. If sin is physical, then I must be able to do things to improve my condition. Just as I can build muscle by working out, so I could improve my behavior by careful discipline and observation of the law. If, on the other hand, sin is ultimately spiritual, then there's nothing I can do to fix the problem. God who is spirit must fix my spirit. Only One who was spiritually alive could bring my dead spirit to life. Jesus was without sin, even though he is genetically Mary's son. I don't know how that all works; it is a mystery that God does not reveal. But I know that sin is not primarily physical. Our physical selves are affected by it--no question! But the true nature of sin is a dead spirit disconnected from God. And, interestingly, even Jesus' body went to the grave, as ours do--while he surrendered His spirit to God. When he rose again, he had a resurrection body different from his human one--just as we will, also. So, Melissa, even though most Adventists don't understand why the doctrine of soul sleep has such a powerful hold on them, I believe that, like the Sabbath, it is binding because it perpetuates heresy--the heresy that sin is physical and we have nothing more to us than bodies and breath; the heresy that salvation is about Christ's perfect life being our example and that we, too, can become perfect --the heresy that our salvation is about getting our physical impulses under control and not ultimately about a restored relationship with God; and the heresy that Jesus either inherited Mary's sin and therefore his sinlessness was about not sinning by means of his great will power and determination and obedience--or that He set aside His advantage and made himself like us so we could never excuse our sins by saying Jesus wasn't exactly like us. It has been said that false religions are wrong about the three essential S's: sin, salvation, and the Savior. Any way you look at it, the Adventist belief in the spirit being breath and the resulting doctrine of "soul sleep" squarely places Adventism outside true Christianity. The doctrine's hold on people, I believe, is a spiritual hold. The Adventist spirit of deception has imprisoned its members by a deep unbelief in the truth about Jesus and his amazing work of grace. Colleen | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 79 Registered: 7-2004 |
Have you ever heard SDA's say "the only thing you can take with you to heaven is your character"? I always wondered what that was supposed to mean. Is character a physical thing? Or is it "spirit"? Animals don't have a character, and it seems to me that character and spirit are pretty strongly connected. It's like SDA's recognize something has to continue on, but they don't want to say the "spirit" does. I don't want anyone to jump all over me here, but I still have had trouble completely accepting everything about the state of the dead that mainstream Christianity says. And yes, I've read the recommended books, and all the texts. I'm at the point now, where I think I'm convinced there is a continuing spirit, but I still have trouble with the final state of things. To me, sin isn't completely removed if it's quarantined instead of annhilated. I guess I've decided it's not as important how I understand every detail about it, since I know where my choice of destination is! It's the SDA's who think it's a huge deal to believe "their way" about the state of the dead, or you're doomed. Whatever happens, I will accept the facts, even if it's not what I thought would happen! Obviously, if I find out in the end that God quarantined instead of annhilated, I'm not going to be telling Him that He should have annhilated! I'm also not going to be telling Him "but the Bible said you were going to annhilate"! | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 888 Registered: 12-2003 |
Raven, I agree with you. I just don't have to understand every detail about it. It's sufficient to know that God will change everything (new heaven and earth) and keep us safe for eternity. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 889 Registered: 12-2003 |
By the way, Dennis, I really appreciated your quotes above. Even though Hank has some quetionable understandings of Adventism, he does write some good things! Colleen | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 1066 Registered: 11-2002 |
I have a question about that statement,"the only thing you can take with you to heaven is your character". First, I've never heard that statement before and second, I don't agree with it at all. Now, I will say how come I don't agree with it. I have known over the years Christians who are extremely crabby people. Folks who are just misery to be around for over 10 minutes in one stretch. These people are committed Christians who really want to serve Jesus and live for Him and someday be with Him. I believe though when they finily get to their eternal heavenly reward they will leave behind their miserable charactor. Yes, there truly are some Christians out there who are charactors. | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 80 Registered: 7-2004 |
Yes, I've thought the same thing, and don't agree with the statement either. But I have heard it alot among SDA's, and I think it's said to make the SDA point that we have to reach perfection to get to heaven. Since the only thing we can take with us is our character, according to SDA's, it better be perfect! | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 895 Registered: 12-2003 |
Exactly, Raven. That's what that statement REALLY means! Colleen | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 704 Registered: 3-2004 |
Boy, I have not heard that statement for a long time. Thank God we have Jesus, who covers us with his blood and we accept and love him. It is not our character that goes to heaven, it is the character that God gives us through our belief in Jesus. God is awesome. Diana |
