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Hrobinsonw
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Username: Hrobinsonw

Post Number: 71
Registered: 7-2004
Posted on Wednesday, November 03, 2004 - 1:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

When adults don't read and study their Bibles. Will they be held accountable for their lack of knowledge. For example, Susy has been SDA all of her life. At age 23 she believes firmly in the scripture that the SDA church provides for her because she doesn't attempt to read scriptures outside of the SDA realm. If she were to die at that moment, would her lack of knowledge be forgiven or would she be held accountable?
Raven
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Username: Raven

Post Number: 81
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Posted on Wednesday, November 03, 2004 - 2:05 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

That's a good question. It's particularly unsettling to me, because that's precisely what SDA's teach, due to a similar statement made by EGW. Ellen White teaches that we will be held accountable for what we "could have known", which is translated that those who had the opportunity to know and understand what SDA's believe, but didn't bother, will be lost as if they had rejected it.

So, are you saying maybe EGW was right, but it will come back to bite SDA's because they ignored what they could have known through Bible study that goes against SDA teachings?

Which brings me to another, similar, issue. I was recently told by an SDA, and I know it's common SDA belief, that we "will be judged according to what we believe and do". I haven't made a response, but I was wondering what beliefs we will be judged by? And doesn't that somehow fit into your question? That makes it sound like, since the Bible teaches a concept about the state of the dead, if a person who studies doesn't conclude to the correct belief about it, they're lost. That belief as well as many others, are debated within Christianity. That's why it's troubling to me to say we're judged by what we believe or we're accountable for what we could have known--they both sound too difficult to put in "black and white" terms!

It seems the only belief that should be salvational is that of "believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved" (Acts 16:31) Any thoughts?
Mitsy
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Username: Mitsy

Post Number: 11
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Wednesday, November 03, 2004 - 2:32 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I believe that most all Adventists I know are good Christian people. I think most are sincere in their interpretations of scripture and try to live good, decent lives. Forgive me if I have given the impression that I would think otherwise.

That said, the problem with the SDA faith seems to be the belief in the SDA "interpretations" of scripture. I think most of them honestly believe that the SDA church is the only true church and that we can receive devine interpretations or "inspirations" from the woman they claim to be a prophetess - E. G. White.

But, I believe the real problem with Adventism are the church leaders who continue to promote a legalistic, White-interpreted view of scriptures and have little leeway in the definition of what a Christian should be. The exclusivity that seems to be a strong cord with the group is very off-putting and defeats their supposed message of "spreading the gospel". Until there are major changes within their "doctrines of belief" it will continue to be viewed by many as cultish (if not a cult) and at the very least considered a fringe-Christian group. Not good for gaining numbers or gaining acceptance by many non-SDA people.
Susan_2
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Post Number: 1071
Registered: 11-2002
Posted on Wednesday, November 03, 2004 - 3:56 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth and the life. All who come to me will not perish but have eternal life." I can only conclude that sincere Christians of whatever denomination or part of no denomination at all will be save into eternity with Jesus. I do also believe that any Bible study beyond the basics is only for our own quality of life now, in this life. But, the hope of eternal rest with Jesus is secure.
Vchowdhury1
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Username: Vchowdhury1

Post Number: 67
Registered: 7-2004
Posted on Wednesday, November 03, 2004 - 5:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Mitzy, with all due respect, I disagree with you on the point of sda's just mis-interpreting the scriptures. I have been intensly studying the new testement (especially the writings of the Apostle Paul) and there are many areas where sda doctrine goes AGAINST the scriptures. For example, in Romans 14 it says that "Christians should not judge other Christians because of what they eat, or what day they decide to keep Holy". This should be between them and the Lord. How can this scripture as straight forth as it is need any additional interpretion. Of course we know that the sda doctrine teaches the opposite. They DO judge other Christians by what they eat or the day they keep Holy. There are too many scriptures here to list, but most of them sda's teach the exact opposite. And a lot of scripture is very very plain, and I noticed the sda's only tell you that "it depends on the interpretation" only if there is something in the scriptures that they disagree with. The scripture that they do AGREE with are, for some reason, don't need ANY additional interpretation as far as they're concerned. And yes, I think the reason for this is that most sda's don't really study the Bible as it is. They rely to much on the ramblings of EGW. My favorite choice of Bible is the New Living Bible. In it, the important scriptures (the ones dealing with the kind of relationship that I have to have with Christ and my fellow man in order to have eternal life) need no additional interpretation. Its very plain. Read Acts, Romans, & Galations from the New Living Bible.
Dennis
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Username: Dennis

Post Number: 209
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Posted on Wednesday, November 03, 2004 - 7:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

What happens to those who have never heard of Jesus? Will God condemn people to hell for not believing in someone they have never heard of?

First of all, people are not condemned to hell for not believing in Jesus. Rather they are ALREADY condemned because of their SIN. Thus, the real question is not how can God send someone to hell, but how can God condescend to save any one of us?

Furthermore, if ignorance were a ticket to heaven, the greatest evangelistic enterprise would not be a Billy Graham crusade but a concerted cover-up campaign. Such a campaign would focus on ending evangelism, burning Bibles, and closing churches. Soon no one will have heard of Christ and everyone will be on their way to heaven.

Finally, it should be emphasized that everyone has the light of both creation and conscience. God is not capricious! If we respond to the light we have, God will give more light. In the words of the apostle Paul: "From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live. God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us" (Acts 17:26-27).

Dennis J. Fischer
Raven
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Username: Raven

Post Number: 84
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Posted on Wednesday, November 03, 2004 - 8:00 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I understand what you're saying, Dennis, and I agree with a lot of what you're saying. But, once a person has accepted Jesus, how many more beliefs is that person held accountable for that they understand or could have understood? I think the Bible tells us the only salvational belief is that of Jesus. Your statement "If we respond to the light we have, God will give more light" sounds very SDA. SDA's use that to say if the light of the "Sabbath truth" is presented and rejected, then the person has rejected Jesus and won't be saved. A non-SDA could just as easily say "I presented the truth about SDAism to my SDA friend, and they rejected it, so I guess they're rejecting Jesus and won't be in heaven."

We can't know this side of heaven which doctrinal details are "light from God"--there are too many differing opinions. If there weren't, there wouldn't be so many denominations and there would be a "correct church" to be found somewhere.

That's why I still say "belief in Jesus" is as far as it goes to be considered salvational, although I'm sure God has a way of dealing fairly with people who have not heard of Jesus but responded as able through revelation of creation or conscience.

I personally believe that many of the SDA's I know have a fully saving relationship with Jesus right now, in spite of their viewpoints on what the former SDA's enlighten them on.
33ad
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Post Number: 98
Registered: 10-2004
Posted on Wednesday, November 03, 2004 - 10:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The test of what we are judged by, irrespective of the amount of the Gospel we receive, is found in Matthew 25:34 "Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'
This is what the Gospel boils down to. Not "Doctrines" but LOVE for Jesus and our fellow man.
Dennis
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Post Number: 210
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Posted on Wednesday, November 03, 2004 - 11:20 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Raven,

While there are Adventists who are Christ-followers in spite of their cultic dogma, it should not be so difficult for them. In order to be a Christian, amid such theological darkness and uncertainty, freedom in Christ becomes a major, daily challenge. In such a situation, one's spiritual journey is robbed of significant joy and peace. Under such daily uncertainty and duress, life quickly becomes an unending roller-coaster experience.

Without the assurance of their salvation, their growth is retarded while being assailed with crippling doubts. A justified person, however, cannot lose his justification. In other words, all whom He justifies He glorifies!

Take a glimpse of the high priestly prayer of Jesus recorded in John 17: "...keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are. While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled" (vv.11, 12).

Again we read: "Father, I desire that they also whom You gave Me may be with me where I am, that they may behold My glory which You have given Me; for You loved Me before the foundation of the world" (v. 24). We do not have to be good to be saved, but we do have to saved to be good.

For the sake of clarity and convenience, I will quote Romans 11:29 in ten different translations: "For the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable" (NASU) "God never changes his mind about the people he calls and the things he gives them" (NCV). "God doesn't take back the gifts he has given or forget about people he has chosen" (CEV). "For God never goes back upon his gifts and call" (Moffit). "For once they are made, God does not withdraw his gifts and his calling" (Phillips). "For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance" (KJV). "For God does not change his mind about whom he chooses and blesses" (TEV). "For never does God repent of His free gifts or of His call" (Weymouth). "For the gracious gifts of God and his calling are irrevocable" (NEB). "For the gracious gifts and call of God are never taken back" (Williams).

Think about it! We who have accepted God's free gift no longer run the risk of being put out of the family. We do not become unadopted or unreborn. Christ was put of it in our behalf. In Christ, the requirements of God's holiness have been completely fulfilled. Anyone who would use God's grace as an excuse to sin is not really a Christian at all.

No one is saved by what they do, nor lost by what they do not do. It is taking hold of the merits of Christ that is alone essential. God is not looking for a series of promises. His primary concern at this point is not your ability to follow through. HE IS MORE CONCERNED ABOUT WHAT YOU WILL LET HIM DO FOR YOU.

Jesus' message was simple. Eternal life is found through faith and faith alone. Both heaven and hell will be full of men and women who have committed every imaginable evil. The difference is not the severity of their sin, or in the number of their offenses, but in their response to the offer of the Savior. The apostle Paul declared that "...if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed!" (Galatians 1:8 NASU). How can one find rest in Jesus while holding unto "another gospel?"

In His joy,

Dennis J. Fischer
Raven
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Username: Raven

Post Number: 85
Registered: 7-2004
Posted on Thursday, November 04, 2004 - 5:15 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks for the clarification, Dennis! My defenses go up when I hear oft-repeated SDA phrases, and it made me wonder if you were giving it the very same meaning that those raised within SDAism are used to.
Mitsy
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Username: Mitsy

Post Number: 12
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Thursday, November 04, 2004 - 6:24 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Vchowdhury:
I understand what you're saying, but I do believe many SDA actually believe what they think (or are led to think) that certain scriptures say. Twisting scriptures (as I believe they actually do) does not make them correct; it only makes them delusional. In the SDA church I attended I believe the biggest majority of the members were regular Bible readers, but how much they questioned or interpretted without any "Ellen" influence is the thing I'm unsure of.
Hrobinsonw
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Username: Hrobinsonw

Post Number: 72
Registered: 7-2004
Posted on Thursday, November 04, 2004 - 6:39 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

33ad, that was some good stuff. So acceptance of Jesus Christ is the only way. So here is the next question that I pose which I have posed before. I don't have my Bible so if you all can help me I would greatly appreciate.

If sin is defined by the Law according to scripture. And the purpose of Jesus is to give salvation through deliverance from sin. And since it is true that we must confess with our mouths and believe with our hearts. BELIEVE AND FAITH are synonymous words. Then faith without works are dead according to scripture. Meaning once you confess a faith in something there must be an action to accompany it in order for it to be functional. By establishing Jesus Christ's purpose to deliver from sin which is defined by the Law, basically saying we are delivered from the Law as well. This is what we come to. Many SDA confess Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior. But what action supports their voicing of faith since their basic belief system negates the purpose of Jesus Christ. Like Paul says about being bound to the Law and not having a purpose for Jesus Christ if you are bound to it. Just some crazy thoughts.
Hrobinsonw
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Username: Hrobinsonw

Post Number: 73
Registered: 7-2004
Posted on Thursday, November 04, 2004 - 6:41 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Something else to ask. Mt 19:16-19 "And behold, one came to Him and said, "Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may obtain eternal life?" And He said to him, "Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments." He said to Him, "Which ones?" And Jesus said, "You shall not commit murder; You shall not commit adultery; You shall not steal; You shall not bear false witness; Honor your father and mother; and You shall love your neighbor as yourself." How do SDA explain this? I am just curious.
Tdf
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Post Number: 3
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Thursday, November 04, 2004 - 6:43 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Mitsy, I appreciate your comments and agree with them. I too make a distinction between the church organization and the many members who have been misled. I am moved with compassion toward them because I was once one of them. It saddens me to learn that the Adventist organization has had many wake-up calls over the years that it has failed to heed. However, I am convicted that our individual faith journey should teach us more and more about our own failings, our own misinterpretations, and our own need of a Savior. I do not believe that, in moving away from Adventist teachings, I have now found all truth. In fact, I have no desire to return to that kind of black-and-white thinking. I believe that there is doctrinal truth, but I also understand that the things I've learned pale in comparison to the things that I don't know. Yet I still believe that God is moved with compassion toward me, that He already died to save me and that I can have His salvation as a free gift, despite my many failings and misinterpretations. I praise God that this free gift is equally available to any person, Seventh-day Adventist or otherwise, who will accept it.
Mitsy
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Username: Mitsy

Post Number: 13
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Thursday, November 04, 2004 - 6:46 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I totally agree Tdf. The SDA seem to set out to make faith something hard to attain and keep. They make what is simple actually very hard to live by.
Pheeki
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Username: Pheeki

Post Number: 413
Registered: 1-2003
Posted on Thursday, November 04, 2004 - 7:40 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hrobinsonw: check out this link, my friend Patti breaks it down well, she is trying to help an SDA understand this text but of course the blinders are on tight. Interestingly enough, there is a Catholic on this forum and the Catholic and SDA's are very, very similar in their theology.


http://new.carmforums.org/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=121&topic_id=30971&mesg_id=&page=&mode=full#31317
Colleentinker
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Username: Colleentinker

Post Number: 899
Registered: 12-2003
Posted on Thursday, November 04, 2004 - 9:33 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hrob, I have had to conclude that I simply cannot always know who has or who has not truly surrendered to Jesus. Those who have are completely in His grip (to borrow Thomas's phrase!), even if they wander away for a time. Jesus takes responsibility for them and woos them back to Himself.

On the other hand, some who have seemed to be saved actually leave for good. John describes them in 1 John 2:19: "They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us."

God truly is the only one who can know if a person has surrendered his heart to Him. As Dennis mentioned above, even those who have not heard of Jesus have revelations of God through creation, et., and they are able to respond to the general revelation available. God continues to reveal Himself to those who desire truth.

I agree that many Adventists do want to know Jesus and desire truth. I was certainly one of those for many years. In fact, many Adventists are committed to Jesusóalthough my guess is that not all of those really know Jesus as the Bible teaches Him.

What I'm realizing more and more is that many people inside cults such as Adventism, Mormonism, even Jehovah's Witnesses, believe they love Jesus. They declare they love Him, and they live apparently loving, warm, welcoming lives. Not all of those people, however, are surrendered to Jesus in the deepest sense of giving their hearts to Him no matter what the cost.

Some people dig in their heels when they begin to learn things that cause them to see their understanding of Jesus and salvation differently than the way they were taught to see it. If a person continues to reject clear truth and to embrace Jesus' revelation of Himself to them, perhaps the Jesus they love is not the Jesus of the Bible.

Others struggle with the facts and the truths they learn and gradually realize thy must embrace them if they are to live honestly. As they embrace them, their love for Jesus increases.

I'm not saying that doctrines, facts, or truth has anything to do with salvation. Jesus alone is salvation. I'm not even saying that people who hold onto cumbersome beliefs have not given their hearts to Jesus. In fact, we really can't know.

I am saying, though, that sometimes people's unwillingness to recognize the depth of their own error means that they love their paradigm more than they honor the Lord Jesus. Sometimes that might mean that they have not surrendered their hearts to Jesus. They "love" Jesus as long as He fits their paradigm.

Raven, something you said above made me think of 1 Corinthians 3. Paul explains that our "works" as Christ-followers do not determine our salvation. Yet God will judge our works. Those who have built works of wood, hay, and stubble will find their efforts will be burned in the fire although they themselves will be saved, "but only as one escaping through the flames.". Those who have built works of gold, silver, and precious stones will be rewarded for their works. (1 Corinthians 3:10-15)

And God does not convict all Christ-followers to see all doctrinal issues identically. Again, in issues where the Bible is not definitive, we must be tentative, and in issues where it is clear, we must be certain. Not all issues are completely clear. God does not convict us all identically--but He does convict us all of the centrality of Jesus, his sacrifice and grace, our intrinsic sin, and the certainty of our salvation when we surrender our hearts to Jesus.

I believe one of the reasons it is essential to expose the unbiblical nature of Adventism (as well as of other groups which teach another gospel) is that Adventism really doesn't teach the true Biblical gospel. It teaches Galatianism. When Adventists really find Jesus, I believe they do so in spite of Adventism, not because of it. They do teach Jesus, but they teach a false view of salvation. Those truly desiring truth will find it because they will be driven to their Bibles. Those content with the security of the church may not turn to the Scriptures and discover the reality of Jesus and His finished work.

Praise God for continuing to teach us and draw us eternally closer to Himself!

Colleen
Mitsy
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Post Number: 14
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Posted on Thursday, November 04, 2004 - 11:11 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Colleen--you bring up some good points. One thing that has always bothered me about the Bible is this. It's too darn hard to understand (sometimes regardless of the translation). I believe that's why there are so many denominations out there today. A lot can be misinterpreted and some are outright twisted to back up a man-made doctrine (such as the jewelry issue). No wonder so many do not read their Bibles regularly. I am not a daily Bible reader either. However, do you ever think that the whole thing should be much simplier to understand? I know I certainly have thought about this over the years.
Susan_2
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Post Number: 1074
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Posted on Thursday, November 04, 2004 - 2:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hrobinsnow, You quoted a list above that Jesus said to the person asking what he must do to be saved. I don't have my Bible or my Strong's in front of me but I know there are numerous lists in the N.T. The SDA's will quote those texts as evidence of the weekly Sabbath being still in effect. When I then ask the SDA's I know how those texts prove the Sabbath because in none of those texts with the lists is Sabbath stated or mentioned they will answer me, "It proves the Sabbath because adultry, murder, honering ones parents, etc. are all part of the 10 Commandments. The Sabbath is implied in those texts. It does not have to be stated outright." Then I will respond, "But, growing up I was taught that the SDA church accepted a literal iterpertation of the Bible and especially the words spoken by Jesus. The Sabbath is not mentioned so taking a litrally undertstanding of these lists would not include the Sabbath." Then they tell me I am too smart to fall for the influence of satan who wants me to not keep the Sabbath. In reality they are telling me they think I'm stupid and the result is I totally avoid any discussion of anything having to do with Christianity or religion with them. But, back to your question, the SDA's use those texts as proof that the seventh-day Sabbath is still required for Christians.
Hrobinsonw
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Post Number: 74
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Posted on Thursday, November 04, 2004 - 2:15 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I have to admit that I am an avid sinner. I do it all of the time and I am sorry for it. My main issue, speaking honestly, is pre-marital sex with my fiance'. We both know that we are wrong. Her mother and cousin are always saying that our relationship will not be blessed becasue of that. I hear it from alot of my SDA friends. I don't recall ever reading anything like that in my studies. Have I missed scripture or is this a Seventh Day Adventist teaching?


If I offended anyone with my confession, I apologize.

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