| Author | Message | ||
| Hrobinsonw Registered user Username: Hrobinsonw Post Number: 75 Registered: 7-2004 |
Oh, Colleen. I got my books. I am reading, "The Truth About Seventh Day Adventist "Truth" " right now. It is educating me so much and giving me a very clear understanding of SDA. I will start Cultic Doctirine tonight. I haven't done much of any work today because I have been reading in between computers. Thanks again for pointing me in that direction. | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 1075 Registered: 11-2002 |
I attended Quaker meetings for a number of years. I really do like attendig the Quakers. Generaally Quakers (at least the ones I associated with) would say their vows to each other and they would consider themselves married before God as God was their wittness. They wouldn't bother with the civil part of the marriage to "make it leagel". It woud pose problems though with the joint property laws and medical emergenicies, etc. but I immagine they'd be up on the legalities to go get legal service to have these issues delt with. So, Hrobinsnow, don't worry about it. That's between you, your partner and God. | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 86 Registered: 7-2004 |
I guess the question becomes whether or not you are "married" to your fiance, based on what the definition of marriage is. Do you see yourself already in a permanent relationship with her? Acts 15:29 says to abstain from fornication and I Corinthians 6:9 says fornicators will not inherit the kingdom of God. My understanding is that the definition of fornication is sex outside of a marriage relationship. I Cor 7:9 says "if they do not have self-control, let them marry; for it is better to marry than to burn with passion." That verse seems to allude the idea that sex should be reserved for marriage. Most Christians I know don't take the stance on no pre-marital sex as strongly as SDA's do, and I don't know the reasons why other Christians would see it differently than SDA's, and I can't say I know for sure how it should be interpreted. I know some non-SDA's think the texts I've just mentioned pertain only to a prohibition of casual sex among multiple partners. However, my thought is that if for some reason you and your fiance don't end up getting married, it will make the break-up that much more painful, and the establishment of a new relationship that much more painful, because of how intimately you have joined yourselves. And stopping what you've already started isn't going to change that fact. Of course, I'm not an expert on any of this! And of course, it is your business. I'm sure all of us on this forum will be just as accepting of you regardless! | ||
| Hrobinsonw Registered user Username: Hrobinsonw Post Number: 76 Registered: 7-2004 |
We are married without the ring, according to my mother. I still see pre-marital sex as wrong, and it is my sin that I am dealing with. Everybody has many things to deal with according to sinful nature. | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 1076 Registered: 11-2002 |
I am veery close with a young lady who lived in Thailand for around a year. She lived way out in a remote village with her husband and his family. To be considered married over there the couple says their vows to each before their loved ones and the local Buddhist preist and they are considered married. There is no formalizing the marriage with the local Hall of Public Records. Of course, this caused a big problem when the newlyweds wanted to come back to the U.S. because our immagration wouldn't accept them as married. So the husband came over here on a tourist visa and they got married over here under our laws. Also, Abaham took Sarah into the tent. When he and Sarah came out of the text they were married before God. So, Hrobinsnow, just take your lady camping and get a tent instead of a motorhome and you're o.k. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 904 Registered: 12-2003 |
Actually, the Christians I know (those associated with the school where I taught and our rather large church, etc.) take the idea of premarital sex even more seriously than did any Adventists I ever knew. While Adventists talked against it, almost everybody did it. In the community where we are, the youth pastors are active in teaching abstinence. Our church as well as a host of others in this area have "True Love Waits" ceremonies every year, in which teenagers pledge abstinence until marriage. Their parents take a pledge with them, promising to support and pray for them, and then the parents give their son or daughter a ring that the teenager wears until his or her wedding. Many of them give their new spouse the ring after the wedding. When our older son was a senior in high school, he had a weekend job as a courier at LLU Medical Center. He worked with several kids from Loma Linda Academy. They asked him at various times what his ring stood for (he wore it on his left ring finger), and he told them. They all mumbled sort-of non-responses and seemed embarrassed or otherwise uncomfortable. One of the issues I've thought of over the years as I pondered this question both as an Adventist and as a former is that a person should not participate in activities if they would be unwilling to face the potential consequences. Pre-marital sex, no matter how careful one is, definitely poses the risk of pregnancy. More recently I've thought about the implications of marriage being a representation of Christ and the church. Because Christians have the Holy Spirit indwelling them, sex literally involves the Spirit. (1 Corinthians 6:12-20) Those who are not born again do not have this phenomenon in their relationships. I've come to believe this reality is why Moses "allowed divorce" in Israel, but in the New Testament marriage is spoken of much more seriously. I also believe that the spiritual reality of the new birth (indwelling Holy Spirit) is one of the big reasons Paul told the Corinthians not to be unequally yoked. A spiritually alive person is a different creature from a spiritually dead one. Hrob, the Bible is clear that if you do something that you believe to be wrong, it is sin for you. God always calls us to trust Him with the things He convicts us of in our lives. At the points where we do not surrender we experience various kinds of suffering, anxiety, guilt, and bondage. You know, there's probably only one way you'll really know whether or not your fiancee really loves you, really wants Jesus in her life, and is really willing to leave her parents: stop having sex with her. If she knows you're willing to go to that length in order to act with integrity before the Lord, you may discover she greatly respects you and is encouraged to have integrity herself. On the other hand, she may be angry and unwilling to work on her relationship with God and with you. That is the risk you would take. It's only when we have the courage of the Holy Spirit to take those all-or-nothing risks, however, that we experience the deep peace Jesus promises. It's also the only way we really know what is true. But of course we love you, Hrob--your confession doesn't change that! With prayers for you, Colleen | ||
| Dd Registered user Username: Dd Post Number: 183 Registered: 7-2004 |
Hrob, You are so precious. Your confession touched my heart. Now remember...I am old enough to be your mother (I'd have been a teenage mother - I am not THAT old!) and my mother bear instincts are very protective of you because, though we have never met personally, I find my self very fond of you. It is apparent to me that you are a good man!  I have come up with a reason I believe God asked us to wait on the sexual part of our relationship until after we are married. It is a bit un-orthodox and not found in the Bible so I will be curious what you and others on the forum think. Yes, sex has it consequences...AIDS, STDs, pregnancies...but what about what it does to our minds? God made us girls with the strong desire to be loved. We crave romance. Need romance. When we get it, all reason goes out the door. Since I have never been a guy, I do not know the specifics of your needs but I believe males and females are not that different in this area. I wonder if God's desire for us to remain pure, for the one He has in mind for us, goes beyond the consequences of the actual sexual act. If we all kept pure and had clear minds, I firmly believe the divorce rate among Christians would be near zero. What do you think? Am I making any sense? I make these assumptions/hypothesis based on my own painful experiences and consequences. | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 707 Registered: 3-2004 |
Hrob, I am old enough to be your Mother also and I would not have been a teenager. From what I have seen, is that having sex before marriage clouds any issues that come up. It is harder to talk about them, because the man is thinking, will this hurt her seeing as we have had sex. I got that from a male friend. It is easier to talk about all kinds of things and subjects if sex is not involved. One gets a better idea of how each other thinks and feels. As Dd said, it is what sex does to the mind outside of marriage that can hurt so much. I have been on both sides of the fence and prefer the side I am on now. Thank God that He redeems our past. Thanks Colleen for reminding us. You were very brave and courageous to tell us of your relationship with your girlfriend. God loves you and wants what is best for you and her. Just my thoughts on the subject. And Hrob, I love you like a son or I would not have said some of the things I have said to you. I have a son 33 years of age and he is the apple of my eye and my only kid. I hope I made sense to you. Diana | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 1077 Registered: 11-2002 |
I have a comment about sexual activity for SDA teenagers. I think one of the main purposes of campmeting is for young folks to find a sweetheart. I know from personal observation that faggot activity is rampent in the SDA boarding high schools. I will share a true experience with you-I was in 11th grade at Monterey Bay Academy. My roommate was in 9th grade. I had to come back to my dorm room to get my homework because I'd forgotten it. I actually walked in on my roommate and her "girlfriend" in bed together! Before actually observing it with my own eyes I didn't even know such things were possible with two people of he same gender. Well, I went into a verbal rage and then I went and told the associate dorm mother what I walked in on and she immediatelly found me a different roommate, one who was perfectly compatable with me. The thing is though that my roommnate and her girlfriend that I walked in on told me her mother and her "aunt" which is what she referred to as her mothers lesbain partner as had lived this way for years and years so this is what my roommate grew up being exposed to. And, yes these two ladies were upstanding SDA's in their church. The two women would even sleep together in the dorm when they came to visit the girl. I was so happy when I got to go back to my public school! The next year I attended a local SDA day school for several months and then I went back and got to graduate from h.s. with my public school friends. However, during this time my best friend had been seen in town smoking. Some tattle-tale bitty saw her and reported it to the principal. My best friend was suspended from school for two weeks because she was told even when away from the school she was to be a wittness to SDA principles and the SDA health message. Several weeks after my friend was suspended the associate ministers daughter (also in h.s.) announced she was pregnant. A meeting was held and it was decided that if she was going to have a baby, married or not, that a Christian education was the most approiate place for her more so now than ever. She did not have a baby and I don't know why but obiviousely for her to even be telling everyone at school she was pregnant (and the alledged father attended there, too) they were certanly engaging in inapproiate activity. Several years ago the front cover of the Review said the issue would be about abortion. The article just about made me physically sick. Marriage for the couples facing uwanted pregnancies wasn't encouraged. Adoption was mentioned as an option and the article even mentioned where to call to provide a baby with an adoptive SDA home. Then the rest of the article said the best way to get over the guilt of abortion is to purchase a baby doll, give the doll a name and pretend it is the aborted fetus and in proxy have a funeral for the baby and bury the doll. Why not turn to God in His grace and forgiveness and turn it over to Him, that's what I wondered at the time the article came out in the Review and I sill wonder how come that is not the answer given. Just about a year ago it was in the newspapers that several teachers from Monterey Bay Academy who taught there in the 1980's were being sued for drugging boys and having inapproiate relations with them. Sadly, after the news hit the papers one of the teachers being sued committed sucide. This was in the L.A. Times. I too have wondered how come the SDA church as a whole does not stress morality more. I can only conclude it is because they are using their energy and money to promote SDA church membership with the emphasis being on Sabbath, what not to eat and the sin of smoking and their last days scare stories of how they interpet Daniel and Revelations. Because, they are not in the business of promoting sexual morality. It hardly even seems to be encouraged. The SDA as an organization seems to just want to totally avoid the topic of sexual morality. The result is that the youth just aren't being taught anything on this important issue. It's too bad too. | ||
| Hrobinsonw Registered user Username: Hrobinsonw Post Number: 77 Registered: 7-2004 |
My thing is this. From my parents, and friends, and what I have been taught my entire life, I feel that pre-marital sex is wrong. But my study now has me focusing on sexual immorality. She and I are really married in every since of the word. The fact that we are not married by the standards of American Society is what makes me feel bad. We feel married, so it isn't an issue to us. But I am torn because I wonder should I feel bad. Am I less of Christian because I don't feel bad about. But then I second guess my self like I did earlier because everywhere I turn it says it is wrong. But then you have to boil it all down to the definition of sexual immorality. If I had a better understanding of those words, I think that I would feel better. But everything around me makes me feel wrong about sex with her. But spirit to spirit we are pretty much married. It might sound twisted but we are already saving and car shopping around the fact of wanting children. Finances, groceries, gas money, Holidays, etc. We are a family. The only thing missing is children and the actual date to perform a ceremony. Oh, she read some of Dale Ratzlaff's book last night. She bighting at the bit to read Cultic Doctirine. It is crazy. Thank yall so much. | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 573 Registered: 7-2003 |
Hrob, As one with an out-of-wedlock child, you see no stones in my hand, but as others mentioned, it is not merely the physical act that is sinful, but the emotional scars are incredible. I've read studies that people who are sexually active before marriage are more likely to divorce. One of the reasons sited is a general lack of trust. The spouses couldn't control themselves before marriage, how can you know they will after? I heard another speaker talking once, and I have lived it, so I knew he was speaking truth... People that get involved sexually before marriage find it difficult to end the relationship when it is clear there are serious incompatibility issues because of the intensity the relationship has had. I have often thought that if B and I had not gotten involved, it would have been far easier to end the relationship because when we couldn't develop other areas of our relationship (friendship, spiritual unity, etc. The physical stepped in and "seemed" to fill the gap. But you get to a point in time where you are so sick by your sin, that you blame the partner who is not stronger to maintain moral purity, assuming they care about purity. As far as non-SDAs being more casual about pre-marital sex, I would say that has to be coincidental. B says there are numerous at his church who are unwed parents and it is accepted. At my church, I voluntarily sought out mentors and had to be on a probationary type period before being involved in the church ministry opportunities because of the appearances and the reputation of the church and their stand against sin. The worship leader tells us regularly that if he find out about an improper relationship, we will be off the praise team immediately and not reinstated until we are involved in a counselling program. We stand on stage and represent God and they want what the people see on the stage to be an accurate representation of who we are outside church. I have never been in a church that is gentle on immorality. As a matter of fact, I was so surprised B is so lax about it. But I've learned because of the way he is told to read the Bible (not everything means what it says, or narrow focus, using scriptures about sexual immorality to really mean about food, etc.) he doesn't even recognize sex outside of marriage in every situation as a sin...only that with prostitutes or harlots. You lose something inside when you get involved sexually outside the constrains of marriage, you eventually blame the other person for "taking" it from you even if you participated willingly. When you have built a relationship on the physical, after you're married and the passion starts to lessen, what will you have to connect you? Are you friends, do you share common interests? Do you have a connection that is intimate and personal without sex? I have come to realize that growing up in a divorced home where the only family I saw was what was modeled on TV, I had a very warped sense of what love is and how one shows love. I was very dogmatic about my desire to be abstinant in this relationship from the outset, and though B disagreed, he said he would comply. They were empty words in part because I wanted someone to love me, and that was the only way I knew to see it. Hrob, these are highly personal sentiments that I would probably never be able to sit face to face and tell anyone, but if they help you reverse your future from mine, I'm going to share anyway. You have to have a relationship that is built on more that a physical intimacy. I realize there are God-given attractions and desires that are perfectly normal, but this is the time to build your relationship in a non-physical way. I really struggled to not see marriage as a way to make the sin go away or somehow justify it. It was a real internal battle to decide whether I was going to trust the word of God, even if it meant being alone the rest of my life, or if I was going to have someone I don't even like sometimes around so I don't have to be alone. I have chosen Christ. It is lonely, and there are real logistical heartbreaks because of our son and the loss of dreams and hopes, but I had to make the decision on whether I believed what the Bible said or not. If I believed the Bible and I truly wanted a relationship with God, I can't spit in his face on a regular basis. If you haven't already resolved to do so, take a period of time before you marry and abstain. Make sure there is something to the relationship more than the physical. It's better to call it off now, than divorce later, when their might be kids involved and the rest of your life is forever scarred by the pain. I have walked this path. When I found out I was pregnant, one time B mentioned getting married and I said no way. He didn't want to marry me before the baby, I sure as the world wasn't going to afterwards. It is an emotional journey I still fight. I want for my family, I want for myself. But the spiritual disunity is an issue that can't be overcome and I can't be the wife the Bible calls for me to be without it. Failure to follow scripture would just beget more failure to follow scripture. I decided one failure was plenty. (see that as a continuing emotional struggle, but one I am determined to defeat) I personally believe many couples fail in this area in our culture, even christians. Not because they don't care, but because it is so conditioned into us by our cultural icons, movies, etc. We don't see loving non-married relationships without sex portrayed anywhere. Our parents aren't even modeling it for us. How do kids know they're loved? Do we tell them? Are we caring within healthy bounds? Do we teach our kids to value themselves enought to not indulge their every desire? Mine didn't...and it's hard to know if I'm doing it right for my son. Even if we "know" from an intellectual position it's wrong, the emotions are a strong driving force. I feel I'm starting to repeat myself, so I'm going to quit. I pray you will consider my experiences as your proceed. | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 87 Registered: 7-2004 |
I've always heard if someone has pre-marital sex, it makes it that much easier to have an extra-marital affair (adultery). Because, in both cases, no one is waiting for the "official paperwork". I know of a case right now where a couple is living together in their own home as if they are married, and the only thing missing is the paperwork. They say as far as they're concerned, they're "married" and have made a lifetime commitment. But that missing paperwork means they have denied each other of the legal basic rights that spouses have. If one of them has a medical emergency, the other has absolutely no say in what happens. They can't even share medical insurance coverage. Legally, they are absolutely nothing to each other. I suppose some states have considerations for "common law" marriages, if you've lived together long enough, but I don't know much about that. Sex is so much more meaningful when done within the context of being the most intimate expression possible of a couple within a permanent, committed relationship. In our society, a legally recognized relationship is the most permanent, committed relationship you can have. I can't say what to do in you case; that's your decision, and it's always harder to backtrack. However, I have always been a firm advocate of waiting for sex until being officially married for moral, Biblical, and legal reasons. | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 574 Registered: 7-2003 |
Hrob, the definition of sexual immorality is not really the issue...it's the definition of holiness. Do we want to skirt right up next to the line of sin without going over it, or do we want to become so holy in our lives, and so like Christ, that we can barely see the line of sin in our rear-view mirrors? That definition of sexual immorality is an argument B used on me with limited success, but ultimately I had to read the scripture.... I can't remember the exact text, but it said something to the affect that it is better to marry than burn with passion. With that, I knew beyond doubt, any sex outside marriage is wrong regardless of the depth of emotion. You're not married, no matter how you feel. Either one of you could walk away without any constraints. Believe me, I tried that logic. It just doesn't fly with the word of God. You can't get married just to have sex. The relationship has to have more than that. You're playing word games, in some respect, because it helps you feel justified in your actions. I know the logic, I know the song, I know the dance. Sin is sin. That you don't feel bad doesn't surprise me because you're justifying it. When you finally see it as God does, maybe that will change. Back up. Resolve the spiritual issues, put God first in your relationship and worry about whether to marry, let alone when, after you have a solid foundation. You've got the ox way before the cart and I don't know if you have the tools to connect them. THINK and PRAY. It only gets more complicated from here. | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 1079 Registered: 11-2002 |
Yes, A child binds committed parents like nothing else can. One of my sons best friends is only 20 years old. He and his girlfriend have a wonderful little boy who is almost two. If they didn't have that child tey would have long ago forgotten each other even exist. They do not get along or are really compatable at all. Yet, they both love the baby more than words can express. The young man brings the baby over to my house and I get to play grandma with in while his daddy gets to be a kid with the other boys. Years ago I knew a couple who were marrie. They loved each other much. They hated being around each other too much so they each had their own apartment. They'd meet after work and have dinner togther and spend some time togeter, go on vacations together and know they each had their own place. In fact, I've know several married couples with this sort of arrangement. But, the personal committment to intamtamacy was only with each other and they were legally married. And, you will notice in each of the situtations I sited above of the couples being wed without it being regurstered with the government they were truly wed with saying their vows pubically and within the confines of their perticular culture. And, as Colleen mentioned above it is very clear that if someone believes himself to be sinning then for him that is a sin. Frankly, I hate having a guilty consience. So I try to live so I'll avoid that. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 905 Registered: 12-2003 |
Melissa said what I was trying to say, only with much more clarity, Hrob. She hit the proverbial nail on the head when she said the definition of sexual immorality is not the issue. She's right--it's not. I know all the rationalizations--and I know that the bottom line is holiness and obedience, as Melissa indicated. I'm not talking about obedience to the 10 Commandments, either--I'm talking about obedience to Jesus and surrender of my "rights" and being willing to walk by the Spirit instead of walking by my "educated conscience". Hrob, I believe the reason you brought this subject up here is that you are, at some level, struggling with the legitmacy of your involvement with your fiancee. I so completely understand the dilemma you face--the "what if's" and the potential losses. And yet I know that you are committed to Jesus--and just remember that He will not let you "skate by" with unresolved compromise and sin without confronting you and disciplining you for your own growth! Hebrews 12:1-12 is about how God disciplines His sons and daughters precisely because they are HIS! If they were not, he wouldn't bother with the discipline. The fact that you have shared your struggle with us as well as the rationalizations you have walked through tells me that God is bringing you face to face with this issue as part of His loving discipline of you as His son. Jesus wants you to trust Him with EVERYTHING. He asks all of us to give up to Him the thing (person, relationship, etc.) that is most precious to us so He can reveal Himself to us completely in every area of our hearts. He just can't be Lord of us if we refuse to surrender what we most love or fear to lose. And we can't feel that unashamed adoration and closeness to Him when we know we're rationalizing sin in our lives--even if that sin is related to something that might be good in other circumstances. I second Melissa's suggestion that you have a time of abstinence until your marriage. Only then will you really know for sure that you are giving God complete access to your relationship. You can't You can't really trust yourself or her or be the kind of husband that loves his bride as Christ loves the church if you're unable to sacrifice what God asks of you for the sake of integrity. With love and prayers for you, Hrob, Colleen | ||
| Hrobinsonw Registered user Username: Hrobinsonw Post Number: 78 Registered: 7-2004 |
Thanks for your thoughts guys. We always talk about not having sex until we are married. And we agree on it. And we stay committed for a very long time. But like most sin when you make an effor to stop it comes at you when you are distracted from it. We both get to ripping and running and carrying on with our jobs, bills, recreation, education, and over time forget the commitment that we had been excecising. It is like a cycle for us. We find oursleves second guessing and rationalizing when a few months pass and we are right back where we started. Satan is good with dancing on you thought proccess. But thanks again guys. I really mean it. Oh, and Colleen, is there anyway that I can help with the Life Assurance Movement. If so let me know. | ||
| Pheeki Registered user Username: Pheeki Post Number: 414 Registered: 1-2003 |
Change of subject, sorry. I am being attacked on www.carm.org (the SDA forum) for posting parts of your comments (Mitzy comes to mind as one I posted) about leaving SDAism. Of course anytime any of us on that forum try to share our experience of leaving SDAism we get attacked. Anyway, an SDA says I have broken the rules by posting portions of posts from FAF...if anyone is offended I am sorry. To make a long story short, the SDA didn't believe what I posted and challenged me to have the acutal people come on CARM so they could cross-examine them...is anyone interested? I am tired of being called dishonest and would appreciate other voices and experiences to confirm what we have been through leaving the SDA system of bondage. Thanks for the help, should you decide to help. Pheeki | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 575 Registered: 7-2003 |
Pheeki, why won't they just come read it for themselves over here? Unless you'd rather not guide them here? Just a question. As a never SDA, I obviously can't help. | ||
| Freeatlast Registered user Username: Freeatlast Post Number: 222 Registered: 5-2002 |
I'll be your huckleberry... I've been on CARM before but grew tired of the constant bickering and "ivory tower" attitude of the regulars there (Gregg is a classic example of this). I'm happy to venture back if you feel it would help. What next? | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 576 Registered: 7-2003 |
Hrob, we'd gone months as well. But I just found myself getting angry all the time because he didn't have the same conviction as I do. And now, he says I'm just trying to keep him from his son to make him go home at night. Lots of emotional blackmail crap. I don't know the male emotional aspect of it, but I know the female side. She could be feeling some of what i"m saying and not know how to say it to you for fear she will hurt your feelings. it's hard to tell the person you genuinely love and care about to stay away from you at the same time and them not feel rejected and then come the insecurities, blah blah blah. I promise, the anger and irritation builds and it will rupture. If you can't resolve the sin issue yourselves, God's resolution may not be what you want. Sometimes I wonder if the veil has not been removed from B's eyes because of the situation. Or maybe it's just B keeping his head firmly in the sand. Hard to know. Satan suggests and lures and draws attention, but we do. We follow. I write as one guilty myself. |
