Archive through November 09, 2004 Log Out | Topics | Search
Moderators | Edit Profile

Former Adventist Fellowship Forum » ARCHIVED DISCUSSIONS 3 » Received Call from SDA Sister » Archive through November 09, 2004 « Previous Next »

Author Message
Mitsy
Registered user
Username: Mitsy

Post Number: 20
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Monday, November 08, 2004 - 7:49 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Last week I received a call from one of the sisters at the SDA church. I had wondered when I would be getting a call. This woman was someone I looked up to and I do consider her a strong Christian. I talked with her about some of my concerns at different times during my attendance at the SDA services. But, I never did have the nerve to call her and tell her why I wasn't going back again. I did tell her that there were some "legalistic aspects" that I simply did not believe and that the scriptures I read regarding these things didn't align with the way the church interpreted them. She did not press me any further to explain and I'm wondering if she already knew that part of my problem was with the jewelry issue. She did not, in any way, act like I was an apostate for leaving. In reality, I was not a member anyway. She seemed more concerned that I would be attending a church and I told her I was. Maybe I should have called her when I first decided to leave, however, I guess it was easier to just leave rather than to try to explain why I was leaving and possibly leave open the slim chance that I might be talked into coming back. I think it's also interesting that the one other woman (who was closest to my age and also works at the same place that I do, although in different buildings, has never called me).
Pheeki
Registered user
Username: Pheeki

Post Number: 416
Registered: 1-2003
Posted on Monday, November 08, 2004 - 8:02 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It's because they really don't want to know why you left cause it might start them to thinking and cause them to leave and their security is in the SDA church.
Mitsy
Registered user
Username: Mitsy

Post Number: 21
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Monday, November 08, 2004 - 8:59 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

LOL..yes, that would make sense I'm sure. The thing is that I don't want them to think I'm rejecting Sat. as the Sabbath. I still believe it is the Sabbath, but I just cannot swallow all their rules and regulations for being in this faith. I also had some real problems with Ellen White. While some people might stay in the faith without believing Ellen to be a prophet, everything added together made me VERY uncomfortable with staying. I was insulted by their stand on women's dress issues and believe this is being used as a form of control over the congregation.

I do much better in life when I listen to my inner voice or conscience about things. My conscience told me to leave even though there are some SDA sisters I will miss seeing on a regular basis.
Dd
Registered user
Username: Dd

Post Number: 187
Registered: 7-2004
Posted on Monday, November 08, 2004 - 9:03 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

When we stopped attending our small SDA church in another state, not one person called either, Mitsy. I remember, though, when I was a dogmatic SDA and people would leave, I did the same thing. What ran through my mind was, "Poor ______, they are so confused...I feel so sorry for them...God will lead them back...They know the truth...I will pray for them..." It makes me cringed to think back at my arrogance -- an entrenched, institutionalized spiritual complacency. I never offered anyone a hand of friendship or acceptance. I guess in my arrogance I either rationalized they would be back or miss out on Heaven and it wasn't my problem. I can't speak for all SDA's but I would guess there is still alot of this same mind-set.

Thank you, my dear Friend, Jesus for working on my hard heart and making me a new person in You.
Susan_2
Registered user
Username: Susan_2

Post Number: 1085
Registered: 11-2002
Posted on Monday, November 08, 2004 - 9:15 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Misty, What are the dress issues with the women where you are? Please explain.
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker

Post Number: 907
Registered: 12-2003
Posted on Monday, November 08, 2004 - 9:44 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dd, you described the way I often felt, too. I remember when a dear friend left in about 1994 or 1995. She called to tell me, and I was sympathetic and supportive, yet privately I could not understand how she and her husband could leave the Sabbath. Richard had the same question. I remember saying to him, "I believe they'll come back. This is something they have to do in order to see the issue clearly. They'll come back."

Oh, my goodness--within a year or two, I had discovered the new covenant (with help from Mark Martin's tapes and Dale Ratzlaff's book), and I was so ashamed of my smug blindness. Of course, studying the Bible with prayer that God would help me read what it REALLY said instead of what I thought it said really is what confirmed the new covenant for me.

Mitsy, have you read Greg Taylor's book "Discovering the New Covenant", or Dale Ratzlaff's book, "Sabbath in Christ"? If not, I highly recommend them. They are very interesting--Taylor's is actually his own story, and it's a very easy but informative read. You're right: the seventh day IS the biblical Sabbath--what Adventists don't understand, however, is that the Mosaic covenant was temporary (Galatians 3). When Jesus said he came to fulfill the law, He really meant it--the WHOLE law! There is no "holy" day in the new covenant. (Romans 14:5-8; Colossians 2:16-17) Jesus Himself embodies the Sabbath, and the rest He gives is continuous. I can honestly say I experience the joy and rest of the Sabbath on a daily basis that exceeds what I used to experience on Sabbath--and I loved the Sabbath.

Yes, our Sunday is different from other days now, but not because we are observing it. It has become a day on which, besides going to church, we have people over for dinner, and if we have a chance, we might even NAP! It actually looks a lot like Sabbath used to look, but that similarity is coincidental--it's not because we decided to "keep" a different day.

In Jesus, there is unbelievable peace and freedom from internal bondage.

Praise God!

Colleen
Pw
Registered user
Username: Pw

Post Number: 173
Registered: 6-2004
Posted on Monday, November 08, 2004 - 11:03 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I've written this before, but when I decided to leave the SDA, the pastor himself came to my home and made it sound like I was turning my back on God even though I was attending a Presbyterian church at the time I decided to leave. He went on saying how they are deceiving people with their predestination theories. Anyway, it's funny to hear how they can call everyone else a heretic even when their own beliefs don't hold water.
Mitsy
Registered user
Username: Mitsy

Post Number: 22
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Monday, November 08, 2004 - 12:05 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Colleen, I don't have a lot of spare time to read, but I will try to check out the 2 book titles you mention.

Susan, the last straw for me at the SDA church was the THIRD mention of it being wrong to wear JEWELRY.
I had sat through one of those readings (before the Sabbath school) that made mention (casually but I heard it nonetheless) about the subject of the story not "needing" to wear jewelry or makeup in order to fit in with the rest of the world. It talked about this woman's conversion to the SDA faith. I can't tell you much else about this story other than the mention of jewelry/makeup. I later asked the woman who read this story about this and she glossed over it and said..well it means you shouldn't wear like 5-6 necklaces, bracelets, etc. like she was trying to smooth over the fact that I wore a necklace and bracelet. It didn't set well with me, but I didn't make an issue about it.

Then there was another mention of it by one of the other sisters in Sabbath school when I asked a question about scripture interpretation. It was like "eventually" I would see things as they did. I decided then and there that if this topic was brought up again in any context of church, that I had had my fill of "legalism".

About a month or so ago, I had missed Sabbath school one Sat. but was there the following Sat. There had apparently been an argument or heated discussion the previous week about a SDA pastor somewhere not wanting to baptise a woman because she wore a pair of her deceased grandmother's earrings to church. (see the thread "I Left Over Jewelry"). I would have been quite angry if I had been there that day, and maybe it wouldn't have even been brought up had I been there. In any event, it was the last straw for me in my stint at the SDA church. Legalistic views of scriptures and subtle (or not so subtle) enforcement of such rules (especially over something as insignificant as jewelry) does not make for a pleasant church worship experience. There are few other churches in my area that have Sabbath services, but I do not know of any others (besides some Pentecostal groups) who adhere to such shallow holiness. They may be trying to prove to God their holiness, but in reality, it is an insult to think you can gain favor with God for wearing or not wearing jewelry.

I'm all for modesty and actually abhore many of the dress styles I see worn by some in the high school and college age groups. However, to expect modesty in church members and also demand the refraining of jewelry and/or makeup is quite presumptuous in my opinion.
Mitsy
Registered user
Username: Mitsy

Post Number: 23
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Monday, November 08, 2004 - 12:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I will also add that a couple of the SDA women wore pants to church regularly. I never heard any remarks about that. I personally do not care for pants on women in church unless it is at an informal service, but that is just my own opinion. Some churches are more casual than others. I also saw a couple women wearing shorts to the bible studies when I attended. I didn't care..I really didn't, but I couldn't understand why some things were OK but jewelry was not. It seemed to be a double standard. Also, one woman who thought it was OK that this SDA pastor wouldn't baptise the one woman also wore a watch and wedding ring to church every Sabbath. I guess that was part of the argument I missed hearing. It is like talking out of both sides of your mouth on something. It is confusing for newcomers (like I was) to hear things like this. It is like what you wear is more important than your relationship with Jesus. Sad, isn't it?
Dd
Registered user
Username: Dd

Post Number: 190
Registered: 7-2004
Posted on Monday, November 08, 2004 - 1:07 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Misty,
Did you notice other inconsistencies, also? The jewlery is just a tip of the iceberg. I knew a mother that would not allow her teenage children to go to movies yet she allowed them to rent "R" rated movies to watch at home. At campmeeting, the people who would never go out to eat after church because it causes someone to break the Sabbath yet it was okay to eat at the cafeteria if they had purchased a ticket prior to Sabbath hours. On Sabbath afternoon it was okay to wade in the water but not to get wet above the knees because it would be too close to swimming.

The list goes on just as it did for the Pharisees in Jesus time. The "keeping" of the Sabbath hours is a must but gossiping about your fellow church member and her jewelry is "ok" in light of keeping the ordinances. The Pharisees missed Jesus and so do many legalistic Christians today.

Misty, I agree with Colleen...it's not about Sabbath, jewelry, meat eating, state of the dead...it's all about Jesus and the convicting voice of the Holy Spirit indwelling in us. You are in my prayers as you follow His leading.
Susan_2
Registered user
Username: Susan_2

Post Number: 1087
Registered: 11-2002
Posted on Monday, November 08, 2004 - 2:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

My Strongs is in the other room but there is the text that says the Isrealite ladies even wore nose rings. I'll look up the text and post it later. However, I recently had a disussion with a SDA lady who is sure the end-times are upon us and as she was giving me the last-days list of things to prove the end is nearly here one thing she mentioned was how the youth are not honoring their bodies as temples of God.I asked what she ment by that and she included tattoos, smoking, drinking and so on she mentioned body piercing and she mentioned how those nose rings just make her sick to even look at on what would otherwise be a pretty young lady. At the time I knew the text by heart and I told her the Isrealite ladies were the Children of God and they wore nose rings. So I said, "Heck, it's not my body so what would I care about it if God doesn't?" The conversation ended and we each went our seperate ways. BTW, My young cousin is married to a SDA pastor and him and her wear wedding rings. Their little child even takes dancing lessons. They graduated from Andrews. I honestly believe they don't even know what their own church believes and he is a minister! My son and his wife got married in a SDA church. Their's was the first and so far the only wedding in that church that the ring ceremony was included in the wedding. It was a beautiful wedding and nine months later I became a grandma to twins.
Mitsy
Registered user
Username: Mitsy

Post Number: 24
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Monday, November 08, 2004 - 2:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yes, I was aware of some of the other more ridiculous notions they had about what was OK and what was not for a Christian. Their was talk a couple times about them not going to movies, but since I haven't been to a movie theatre in about 2 years, I didn't make a bid deal out of that. I did think that was also legalistic in that apparently it wasn't even OK to go see a "G" rated movie. They would pick and choose what was OK and what was not--much in the same way they did with the scriptures. They would latch on to certain scriptures (particularly in the old testament) while ignoring some others in the new testament. Let's just say I'm glad I made the decision to not attend anymore.
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker

Post Number: 914
Registered: 12-2003
Posted on Monday, November 08, 2004 - 3:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

BTW, Mitsy, you can obtain both of the books I mentioned at www.ratzlaf.com.

Praise God for the freedom of knowing Him! Those dress code, jewelry issues just gave me a lump in my stomach.

Many years ago I taught at Gem State Academy in Idaho. One year at pre-sesseion, as the teachers sat around discussing the handbook and whether or not any changes should be instituted, the issue came up of boys wearing ties to the cafeteria after church on Sabbath. (It was a school policy that they had to wear those ties on Sabbath at lunch!)

There was one older couple who both taught there, and quite frankly I always thought they were a bit crotchety and rigid--but then they were probably a good 30 or more years older than I, so perhaps it was just my perspective. At any rate, as the wife sat there knitting throughout the discussion, she finally spoke up re: the tie issue and said, "My husband always wears his tie to lunch on Sabbath. He behaves better that way."

It caught us all off guard and reduced us all to laughter, but the rule remained.

Sigh.

Colleen
Flyinglady
Registered user
Username: Flyinglady

Post Number: 719
Registered: 3-2004
Posted on Monday, November 08, 2004 - 4:45 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

All this legalism being discussed makes me so glad I am no longer a part of it. When I love Jesus and respond to his love and He sends His helper, the Holy Spirit, to help me, I can rest in Jesus every day and not worry about dress, make up, jewelry, movies, etc, etc. Thank God He is so awesome.
Diana
Susan_2
Registered user
Username: Susan_2

Post Number: 1088
Registered: 11-2002
Posted on Monday, November 08, 2004 - 4:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

When I was a little girl I was allowed to swim and wade and play in the ocean but not a swimming pool. The reasoning for this rule was that in the ocean I was learning to appriciate God's creation. Frankly, tho, being a kid I doubt I gave two-bits of consideration of the ocean being God's creation and swimming pools being manmade. I just wanted to have fun. I had to wear a dress all day on Sabbath and I could put on my playclothes after sundown. Then I would spend a week each summer with my SDA aunt who lived very isolated in the hills and on Sabbath afternoons she'd have me put pants on and she'd call the neighbors to ask if their kids could play with me so I wouldn't be board and we'd chase each other around on the bicycles with the bb guns shooting each other. My other cousins were Sabbath-keepers, too, although not SDA (they were SDB) and on Sabbath afternoons us kids would take the bb guns to the dump and shoot rats. That was the most fun. I loved watching those rats run and get all upset about being pinged with the bb's. My best friends family wouldn't even get their newspaper or mail in on Sabbaths because it was secular activity. There is much diversity in SDA'ism on proper Sabbath observance and I guess that is good because at least the denomination doesn't get too controlling in that area of a persons life.
Pw
Registered user
Username: Pw

Post Number: 174
Registered: 6-2004
Posted on Tuesday, November 09, 2004 - 6:23 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Reading the previous quotes about what is acceptible and what isn't regarding a Sabbath day is unreal. They have nothing in writing to really know what's accurate, so I think people just make up their rules regarding how they think the day should be kept and enforcing it on their family. Talk about a double standard when it comes to swimming in the ocean compared to a pool is crazy. I'm so glad I no longer am bound by these moronic rules and regulations that have nothing to do with the Bible. Makes me wonder how anyone can tolerate these ideas.
Raven
Registered user
Username: Raven

Post Number: 93
Registered: 7-2004
Posted on Tuesday, November 09, 2004 - 6:35 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I have seen various articles in the Review where an attempt has been made to give "Sabbath guidelines", but they can't make the Sabbath rules official. That would be too Pharasaical!
Hrobinsonw
Registered user
Username: Hrobinsonw

Post Number: 83
Registered: 7-2004
Posted on Tuesday, November 09, 2004 - 6:52 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Mitsy,

Colleen is right. Those books are phenomenal. But I have to agree with everyone else in thinking that people won't contact you out of their own fears of curiosity. I know that my fiance is slowly but surely working her way out of the SDA church and she doesn't realize it. She has been to church with me the past three weeks and hasn't bothered thinking about the Sabbath. That word has not fallen from her lips in three weeks. But she has been going to church with me and each week she plans on going again the next week. The result is that her roomate, family and friends have pretty much kept a distance from her. They used to fuss at her for not going on the sabbath. Once she stated that, "I don't know if I believe what I was taught in the SDA church." No one asks anymore questions. You probably experience the same thing. But God loves you regardless.
Mitsy
Registered user
Username: Mitsy

Post Number: 25
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Tuesday, November 09, 2004 - 7:47 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

In reality, I am probably more of a Seventh Day Baptist than anything but there are no churches of that denomination even remotely close to where I live. I do subscribe to a magazine published by the SDB church. I finally called to have my name removed from the mailing list from 3ABN. I do not get the network (and with my direct TV, probably won't be getting it anyway). I think my name was gotten through the local church because I never asked to be on their mailing list.

Back to the legalism, I think a lot of people might assume that the Pentecostal faith would be the most legalistic around, and they certainly do have some legalistic rules within their faith. But, much to my surprise, the issues of dress and accessories was never mentioned during my time at the UPC. In fact, I was quite shocked to find out that the Adventists were much more concerned about dress issues than any of my Pentecostal friends were. I do know that there might be some Pentecostal groups who would be more strict about such things, but the one in my town was not. I was never made to feel bad for what I wore. The sermons were on other doctrinal beliefs (not ones I agreed with sometimes either) but at least the outward appearance of people was not something they wasted any time on.

I think many people (not familiar with SDA) think that the only big difference between SDA and other denominations is the Sabbath day and nothing else. If that were the only difference, I would still be attending there today. I could even tolerate some of the E.G. White stuff (big emphasis on "some"). But I could not tolerate all the legalistic aspects of the SDA faith. They seemed to be at the forefront of many discussions. AND, they even made the vegetarian issue a legalistic aspect as well. They would use the verse about not eating unclean meats in with Ellen's belief that you should be a vegetarian. Add to it the fact that Ellen supposedly ate meat even after saying it would be better to be a vegetarian, and you wonder why the SDA's have latched on to that belief. There were a number of issues I had problems with, but added together, they were insurmountable for me to ignore.

Another reason I stayed as long as I did was due to the fact that this very small church had scant few attendees any given Sabbath. I'm thinking that maybe 10-12 would be an average number on most Sabbaths (that would include myself and the other non-SDA who also attended semi-regularly). I felt they needed some bodies at church and I gave what $ I could to help support them. There are some great people at the SDA church, but I could not continue to worship there with all the distortions of scripture that they seemed unwilling to compromise on. Maybe someday they will realize why their numbers are not increasing.
Carol_2
Registered user
Username: Carol_2

Post Number: 172
Registered: 2-2002
Posted on Tuesday, November 09, 2004 - 9:05 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Susan - you are so funny. I bet you're a blast to hang out with. You're joy in shooting bb's at the rats just cracks me up!

Well, everyone, I have gone back to reading CARM again because of the recent comments. Pheeki, I don't know how you do it!!! (and the rest of you: Another Carol, Freeatlast, PraiseGod, 33ad, etc.) God bless you, I know He is certainly using you, and if anything I believe that anyone considering Adventism would be scared away quickly if they read CARM. It always terribly depresses me when I read it.....again, I really don't know how you do it.

I have some questions.....first, have any of the traditional sdas on CARM said that they have read and researched extensively about egwhite's plagiarism? I'm curious as to what they say about it.

Also, how do they typically respond to all the Bible says in the New Testament about the New Covenant? I see them use their many proof texts over and over about keeping the commandments, but I couldn't find where anyone had specifically replied and addressed the many New Testament teachings about the New Covenant, no longer living under the law, etc.

Just really curious about these things. If I had more time I'd research CARM more to find my answers, but figured you guys would be able to answer me more quickly.

Another thing, what about Dr. Patti....is she on this forum under another name? Just would like her to know how much I admire & respect what she does also.

Love and prayers to all, Carol #2

Topics | Last Day | Last Week | Tree View | Search | Help/Instructions | Program Credits Administration