| Author | Message | ||
| Krista Registered user Username: Krista Post Number: 38 Registered: 8-2004 |
On another thread, Jeremy mentioned that people joining the church who are being baptized must agree to the baptismal vows. It's frustrating to keep finding out information that I should have known before I joined the sda church. When I was baptized 2 years ago, I never saw the baptismal vows, and was never asked about them. I would have never agreed to them! Recently, when I talked to the pastor about withdrawing my membership, he said I didn't have to believe in egw to be in the church. I gave him my letter this past week, and he was very nice about it, saying he respected my convictions, and to feel free to attend anytime. Anyway, I wonder if there are lots of other churches that don't mention these vows when a person is baptized. Any ideas? | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 70 Registered: 7-2004 |
I have heard stories of a number of SDA pastors not using baptismal vows, or writing their own with the person being baptized. I often wonder whether it is because so many pastor's have issues with the 27, or because they are so anxious to add to their numbers. There were vows on a little card when I was baptized 22 years ago. I don't know how standard those vows were. But I scratched out several statements and explained to the pastor why I couldn't sign with those statements on the card. He accepted my explanation and baptized me. Little did I know how indicative this early experience would be. I recall one of the statements that I scratched out was that I would limit my associations to upright Christians (my paraphrase), I responded that I would prefer to be like Christ and be known as a friend to sinners by my associations. I recall that I changed words on other statements as well. I wish I still had a copy. | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 1082 Registered: 11-2002 |
Awhile back I attended the local SDA church with my mom and a young lady was baptized into the church. I watched very closely. At the close of the service the minister had her come to the front of the church where she was presented with numerus gifts. One book he gave her while he handed the gifts to her he said, "Here's a book to help explain the Seventh-day Adventist church to you. I think it will have the answers to any questions you might have." I remember wondering how come those questions werem't answered before she became a member. I would have liked to told her to go home and read that book very carefully and think about what it said but I don't say anything in that church because I am a guest who is only there to assist my mom and everyone, especially me and the pastor, knows this.//Back when I was bapitized at age 17 I told the SDA minister I wanted to be bapitized on Profession of Christian Faith only. That I did not want to be a member of the SDA church. I'd been raised in it and I grew up from birth knowing how goofy it was. The pastor told me it was not his policy to do that. That every bapitism he did the recipiant was to automatically become a SDA member. Then I told him to forget it, I didn't want to be bapitized. He told mr if I really didn't want to be SDA then after the bapitism I could write a litter to the church requesting my name be taken off the enrollment books. I did this. In fact, over the years I have probably written around a half-dozen letters to the SDA's telling them they'd best not have my name on any official church directory anywhere. I have never gotten a reply to one of my letters. //One of my closest friends just stopped attending the SDA church around 20 years ago. How does the church handle this? Would she still be considered a member? At the Lutheran chuch I attend if a person has no church activity for two consectuve years the person is automatically dropped from membership. | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 71 Registered: 7-2004 |
The SDAs could never do something like dropping names from membership due to lack of attendance. The impact on church membership numbers might be astounding. And then someone would have to figure out how to answer the questions it would raise. | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 711 Registered: 3-2004 |
Ric-b, I beg to differ with you, in a friendly way. My name was taken off the SDA church books because of my lack of attendance. They never wrote me or called me to tell me they were going to do this and they had my address and phone number. I had not moved. The only way I found out was, an SDA friend saw me at the grocery store and told me my name was removed from the church books. I remember that I did not care. What I have found out since then is that when a name is removed from the SDA church the person is supposed to be contacted to give them the opportunity to explain. It was never done to me. And I still do not care that it did not happen. I would have given the person an earful. What I have learned since then is that God is awesome and I love Him very much. Diana | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 72 Registered: 7-2004 |
Quite different than our own experience. We could look down the membership directories of a church that we had attended for several years and identify mulptile people who were "members" that we had never heard of. We were members of one church that we didn't attend even once for over 10 years. No issue was made of it and we were kept as members. Some SDA churches may be keeping their membership lists clean, but that has not been the experience of any that I have been associated with. | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 69 Registered: 10-2004 |
SDA churches may also have a hard time "deleting" members from the only true "remnant" church, and thereby cutting them off from any opportunity of going to heaven. Jeremy | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 714 Registered: 3-2004 |
I try not to be sarcastic, but I will say, apparently the church that deleted my name did not care if I had the opportunity of going to heaven or not. Honestly, I do not hold it against them, nor am I hurt or angry. That was taken from me when I found out my name had been taken off the books. I have some thing much better now. I have Jesus and He can never be taken from me. Praise God, He is awesome. Diana | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 213 Registered: 4-2000 |
Krista, For several years, I was a member of two SDA churches simultaneously. Obviously, this was due to sloppy record keeping. There is no pastoral incentive to clean up the books on membership. The numbers game is a big thing in SDA evangelism circles. In western North Dakota where I grew up, the deceased Adventists were still listed as members years after their burial in some smaller churches. Unfortunately, the Conference-imposed Ingathering, Signs, and Liberty goals were usually based on membership. On the other hand, evangelical churches usually do not extend membership to anyone that hasn't shown up for services in the last year--unless due to medical reasons. The larger SDA churches do not have the practice of actually going over the baptismal vows with every candidate publicly. This is, however, routinely done in smaller SDA churches. Smaller SDA churches may even have a special potluck lunch to honor the new member or members on the day of baptism. The German SDA country church that I grew up in did not have a baptistry, so I was baptized at campmeeting in a portable baptistry. Although I knew the baptismal vows and had a copy of them, I did not publicly have to respond affirmatively to every doctrinal pillar. When one of my daughters objected to believing in Ellen White, the youth pastor told her is was no big deal--just get baptized anyway. Adventism being born in deception is still at it today. In First World countries, it is becoming increasingly difficult for them to convince people to step into their baptistries. Praise God! Dennis J. Fischer | ||
| Nate Registered user Username: Nate Post Number: 4 Registered: 5-2001 |
Hi Krista, I was an SDA pastor for many years and I know there are many variations of the way the Baptismal vows are applied and membership is handled. I know it used to be that Ellen White was not a test of fellowship. You could not openly not believe in her, but a person could be baptized while still studying her writings. It was of course assumed that the person would believe in her soon. Not believing in her was not accepted for long. Ellen White is so central to SDA theology that they cannot allow divergent views as to her authority. But people were allowed a little time to study since believing in her could be a big jump for a person to make in a 3-5 week evangelistic series. Evengelists would want to register their baptisms for their records (numbers and records are a big deal to the church). As I became increasingly concerned about problems in her writings I found ways to be true to my conscience and still supportive of the SDA church. When believing in her became one of the 27 fundamental beliefs I was required to teach that she was a "continuing and authoriatative saource of truth". I would share with new converts that I found her writings insiprational. That there were varying views of her inspiration within the SDA church. While some belived she was on a par with the bible, I saw her as prophetic in that she was instrumental in starting a movement and having a vision for what our church could become. I saw her gifts much like I saw Marin Luther's gifts. he saw some visions and dreams, and was instrumental in the development of the Lutheran movement and a leader in the reformation. But I did not think he was on the same level as the Bible or a Bible Prophet. I saw Ellen White as a Luther for the SDAs. I would then encourage them to read Desire of Ages and Steps to Christ. I felt these were her best books. I shared that I believed she had a modern day spiritual gift of prophecy, much like some have gifts of teaching or evangelism. She should be judged by the scripture. Sometimes she had some true insight and sometimes she was incorrect or wrong. She used many resources in her writings and was often influenced by the thinking of her day. Therefore, we need to judge her by the Word and "prove all things, hold fast to what is good." (1 Thess 5:21) I told them I did not see her like an Old Testament prophet or equal with the Bible in any way. There are a number of SDA pastors that I know did the very same thing I did. They knew the issues, but wanted to be supportive of the church while also telling the truth to new converts. I did the vow stuff privately. Many I know skipped it altogether. As for the dropping of names. Technically SDA pastors are not allowed to drop anyone from membership for non-attendance. They are only officially allowed to do so if the person no longer wants to be SDA. Then they drop them under "apostacy." One can only get out of the SDA church officially three ways: by death, by apostacy, or by missing (no one knows where they are for over a two year period). My family and I were dropped under "apostacy" even though we asked for a transfer of membership to our new ministry location. The people all knew that we were truly in love with Jesus and wanted to serve Him only. But they had no option within the SDA system. SDAs do not recognize other churches as legitimate. Even though the SDA church publically says they respect other churches, in actuality they do not recognize them. They believe the other churches are less than pure. Because they do nlt keep Saturday as the Sabbath they are in rebellion or ignorance. Those of us that used to be SDA are not ingorant, therefore we are in rebellion. Let us keep lifting our brothers and sisters in the SDA system up before the Lord. In Christ, Greg Taylor (Nate) | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 90 Registered: 7-2004 |
Back in the mid-late 80's, Ric_b and I still had our membership at one of the small SDA churches in the Andrews University area, but had already moved back to Ohio and we weren't attending anywhere at the time. I remember getting a phone call one day from the pastor in Michigan who said if we didn't get our membership transferred immediately, we would be dropped and would no longer be SDA's. He said it in a threatening way, like that would be a terrible thing to happen! Looking back on it, we should have let it happen! Instead, we immediately moved our membership to the largest church in the area and kept it there for about 10 years, and only attended once or twice during that time. Of course, we're glad we're out now. | ||
| Dd Registered user Username: Dd Post Number: 188 Registered: 7-2004 |
Greg - I am so glad you are on the forum once in awhile. Thank you for sharing your insight. I met some people this past weekend who knew you as an SDA pastor and were members of your church. Though they are still SDA in strong standing, they spoke very highly of you. I am sure you hear all the negative and not much of the positive. I just wanted you to know what was remembered and shared with others (in this particular SDA group) was your love for Jesus and how you and Paula had an impact on their lives. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 909 Registered: 12-2003 |
Greg, I believe your experience as a pastor with the baptisimal vows and the 27 Fundamentals is probably more and more common today. As you mentioned, the deception in the way EGW is handled with new converts is really inexcusable. The 27 Fundamentals became more rigid regarding EGW in the 80's following Desmond Ford and Glacier View. That's when they added the "continuing and authoritative source of truth and doctrine" statement. Prior to that, a person could wiggle around the church's EGW statements and come up with explanations much like yours comparing her to Luther more easily. The way Adventists do not really tell their new converts about the church's true beliefs about EGW is one of the reasons, I think, that so many Christians have trouble believing what formers tell them about the church. It would be impossible to have Seventh-day Adventist doctrines as they are without her. People become Adventists without knowing the true foundation of their beliefs--and without actually even knowing all the new beliefs they will eventually be expected to hold. Speaking of SDA doctrines, an article came out in the Riverside County Press-Enterprise last week about the Adventist church officially declaring that they held to a six-day creation week. It was quite a long article and featured a picture of EGW. The article explained that the church's "very name proclaims its strict observance of Saturday as the Sabbath, which is fused with a literalism on creation. That, in turn, 'interlocks with other doctrines'--as the new statement puts it--creating the foundation for Adventist belief." The writer then explained that the Sabbath belief is so strong for Adventists because of "the faith's special belief that founder Ellen G. White was a modern prophet who correctly interpreted the Bible." The article concludes stating that "according to a 1994 survey of 121 science teachers [in Adventist colleges], only 43 percent agreed with the church's view that 'God created live organisms during six days less than 10,000 years ago.' "Nonetheless, the new policy states that the church expects 'all boards and educators at Seventh-day Adventist institutions at all levels to contiunue upholding and advocating the Chruch's position on origins.' î So, the church really is tightening its reign on what it will tolerate. With this new statement, they will be able to hold science and Bible teachers' feet to the fire if they ever suggest that creation might have been over epochs instead of days. I know that many Adventists will be extremely upset by this new statement. I suspect this is only the first such "re-affirmation" we can expect. Whatever winds of change may have tried to blow through the official church a couple or three or four decades ago, they seem to have spent themselves. It's true that many individual Adventists including pastors are self-styling their Adventism, but the church is increasingly clear that it has not changed, and Adventists must adhere to the official teachings if they expect to be supported by the church. Underneath all these different faces people are putting on their Adventism is the same spirit of deception. No matter how "liberal" or "evangelical" a congregation or individual appears to be, it is still Adventist and must ultimately decide what to do about its own integrity. Colleen | ||
| Nate Registered user Username: Nate Post Number: 5 Registered: 5-2001 |
Thanks for sharing that Dd. It is encouraging to hear that some of those we served for many years felt we were motivated by integrity when we stepped out on our convictions. I really do believe down deep most of them feel that way, but fear is so deeply rooted in the Adventist worldview, fear that they might be deceived and be led astray or receive the Mark of the Beast, that they tend to avoid those that leave, especially for theological reasons for fear they might catch the disease... be deceived... and be led astray. I do not believe many of them are malicious. Some may be, but most are just afraid and don't know what to do about it. Colleen, yes there are truly two faces to the church. The public face to the outside Christian world in which they want to appear balanced and normal and mainstream vs. the private face where they remain totally committed to the investigative judgment, Ellen White, sabbatarianism, food laws, and the other unique doctrines. There are many SDA pastors and teachers that want to see Adventism move more evangelical. The church allows a certain amount of this because it helps them look normal. But when it comes right down to it, they are not changed. I was talking with another former SDA pastor the other day. He pointed out that in some way we were contributing to the problem by trying to develop progressive evangelical Adventist churches. We were actually making the church look good to outsiders, but we were not teaching the Adventist people the theological basis for this progress. We could not address the underpinnings of Adventism through the eyes of the New Covnenant because of the dangers of doing so. In reality we were unwittingly perpetuating the problem. I know there are many in the church that are people of integrity, know the issues, and are grappling with the implications. They are praying and studying through the radical claims of the Gospel and the clear teaching of the New Covnenant. We must pray for them as the face decisions that take an enormous amount of courage. God bless, Greg Taylor (Nate) | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 916 Registered: 12-2003 |
Greg, thank you for stating it so clearly and from personal experience. The rather large phenomenon of pastors taking their churches toward evangelicalism without addressing the underpinnings has been bothering me increasingly as I've watched the trend spread. You're right; the pastors and the congregations need us to pray for them. Integrity demands disclosure and honesty--but, as you and Paula as well as others have demonstrated, God does bring everyone to that jumping-off place of having to choose between comfort and truth, and those who desire integrity, jump off. Praise God that He is faithful. Colleen | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 721 Registered: 3-2004 |
Maybe this tightening up of the SDA beliefs is good. It may force those who are on the fence to make that decision for Jesus Christ. Fence sitting gets very uncomfortable and God wants us to make a decision. Just my thought on the subject. God is awesome and will help those who really want to know Him. Diana | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 919 Registered: 12-2003 |
Diana, I have the same thought. The "tightening up" really seems increasingly visible to me. Yesterday we got a multi-page flyer in the mail advertising the Adventist Book Center's pre-Christmas sale. I found myself paging through the entire catalog to see what was offered. Now, in the past few years, there has been a noticable inclusion of mainstream Christian authors in the ABC catalogs--authors such as Philip Yancey, etc. In fact, sometimes I was pretty disturbed by the numbers of mainstream evangelical books the ABC was offering. (You know--one more way to deceive the people into thinking they're just another Christian book store! In fact, in Loma Linda the ABC calls itself: "ABC--A Better Choice Christian Book Store"--no mention of Adventist externally.) Anyway, in this current flyer, I did not see any easily recognizable mainstream Christian books. It's possible there might be a few, but I didn't recognize the authors. What I did find was a large number of new EGW-derived books, such as a set of three called Peace, Comfort, and Joy containing EGW's quotes on these subjects, lots of SDA cook books, a collection of books on Sabbath traditions and SDA holiday traditions, several "vege-novels" for kids about Bible characters and Ellen White, a set of three end-time novels that appear to be the SDA answer to the Left Behind series, leather-bound Clear Word, Adventist hymnal/Bible sets, etc. It's the most traditional Adventist advertiser I've seen from the ABC in a very long time. It even has resurrected Ken McFarland's book "Let's Get Acquainted" and republished it under the title, "Your Friends, the Seventh-day Adventists." There's also a special block advertising the book that's been passed out everywhere, "Passion of the Ages," which is the last 14 chapters of the DA, as well as another beautifully designed book called "The Passion of Love" subtitled "He Did IT For You" which is the last 13 chapters of the DA. I feel like I have to explain myself a bit here--and this explanation is mostly for the benefit of lurkers, not for you who post here. Sometimes we're accused and "Adventist bashing" on this forum. I want to say that I am not compelled to criticize Adventists or to whine about the church. I just don't feel that motive inside me at all. Other people say, Why don't you just move on? You're stuck in the past--you're still identifying yourself with Adventism, yet you claim not to like it. Here's what motivates me internally: the gospel of Jesus as it is taught in Scripture needs to be clear. Adventists claim to teach the true gospel, and they say many of the right words, but they ultimately mean something very different from the gospel of the Bible. Adventism takes you down a different path from the true gospel. Paul addressed the issue of how to handle deception (which is what shapes the Adventist church and its whole marketing agenda) in Ephesians 5:8-14: "For you were onec darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Live as children of llight (for the fruit of the light consists in all goodness, righteousness and truth) and find out what pleases the Lord. Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them. For it is shameful even to mention what the disobedient do in secret. But everything exposed by the light becomes visible, for it is light that makes everything visible. This is why it is said, 'Wake up, O sleeper, rise from the dead, and Christ will shine on you.' î People both inside Adventism and outside need to know the truth. They need to have the light of the gospel expose the fruitless deeds of darkness. People need to know that they're being deceived and how they're being deceived. It is not my job to convince people of the truth--that is the Holy Spirit's job. But God has given me a lifetime of experience inside this church, and He has called me from it and placed me in the light of His finished work. Further, He has placed in front of me the work of speaking truthfully and of encouraging those in bondage to the darkness of Adventist deception to risk trusting Jesus and to embrace the light to which He is calling them. I realize that speaking the truth soumetimes sounds a bit like "bashing" when one still has deep emotional ties to the church. I definitely felt that way, too. In fact, I remember the first time a friend of mine who was a former Adventist called the church a cult to me. I had already left the church, but I inwardly recoiled at that word--not so much because I felt protective of the church but because that word was such a powerful revelation of my own deception. What I have found, though, is that God is very gracious and very faithful. He doesn't make us "see" everything all at once. He leads us step by step, and each of us embraces different tiny chunks of truth as the Holy Spirit convicts us. What has seemed to be universally true, though, is that when people leave the church because they have found Jesus (as opposed to leaving simply because they had philosophical or theological disagreements), the longer they are away from the church, the more cultic it appears. The contrast between the truth as it is in Jesus and the deceptive "truth" of Adventism becomes increasingly visible, and the differences are deep and irreconcilable. So, I don't mean to be "Adventist bashing". I do, however, believe truth must be spoken in love--and I pray that God will help me to see as He sees and love as He loves. Colleen | ||
| Carol_2 Registered user Username: Carol_2 Post Number: 173 Registered: 2-2002 |
Amen Colleen! As always, you have a word for me, all of us I'm sure. God uses you in a mighty way. Thank you for your ministry to us. Carol #2 | ||
| Dd Registered user Username: Dd Post Number: 193 Registered: 7-2004 |
Colleen, "Blessed are those who have been persecuted for the sake of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are you when people insult you and persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of Me. REJOICE AND BE GLAD FOR YOUR REWARD IN HEAVEN IS GREAT..." Have you noted in Jesus' Sermon on the Mount that he just had one "reward" for each "BE - attitude" EXCEPT for those who are persecuted for His namesake? He devoted 3 verses for those who endure persecution. Keep "bashing" in love Colleen! Roaches, rats, thieves all thrive in darkness - and run away in the light. Keep shining the light of Jesus! We're with you all the way! | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 1093 Registered: 11-2002 |
I have a very close friend who joined the SDA church. The SDA Bible Worker came to her house weekly for Bible studies. Finily after several months my friend was bapitzed. My friend was actually discouraged by this Bible Worker from attending the Saturday service. The worker explained that the service was geared more towards those who already knew and undersood the SDA beliefs so she would gain more if she just stayed home on Satursay mornings and did the Bible lessons the worker gave her. Then she got bapitized and became a SDA. She had never even heard of EGW until after she joined the church. Starting the afternoon that she joined the SDA church this Bible Worker began giving her EGW books to study. Needless to say my friend was not SDA very long. In fact, her and me met in Cradel Roll when our older children were toddlers. There are several former SDA's at the Lutheran church I attend. Generally Lutherans have no idea the extend that the SDA is from mainstrean Prostastantism. One of us is having to explain these really deep cultic quirks tht one has to have experienced to really understand, we sometimes have to explain it. Generally he people at the church just think the SDA is another regular Prosistant denomination only they hold their worship on Satudays and they don't eat meat and they do awsome heart transplants on babies down at LLU. That's usually all they know. |
