| Author | Message | ||
| Dd Registered user Username: Dd Post Number: 171 Registered: 7-2004 |
Hey Jeremy, Thank you for your response to me on the "What God Reveals of Himself" thread regarding the Bible and pointing out the fallacies of the Investigative Judgment to our SDA friends and loved ones. I thought we should start a new thread and I would love to "study" this with you without getting in the way of Chris' excellent study of The Trinity. You seem to be very handy with the computer. Is there anyway to move my original question and your response to this thread and then start the discussion? Maybe this is something that Colleen has to do for us? I have never really been excited about this IJ "stuff" because it never made sense. I am seeing now that it doesn't make sense because there is no basis and also because I have fallen in love with my God and His New Covenant with me. Now I guess for the first time I see this doctrine for what it is. Even though it is just a jumble of nothingness, I can see it plainly and I understand it to be a HUGE stumbling block in the path to Jesus, not only for end times but for everyday living in Jesus. Thanks, again, Jeremy and I look forward to looking at God's Word with you. | ||
| Dd Registered user Username: Dd Post Number: 178 Registered: 7-2004 |
OK...maybe Jeremy hasn't seen my post or he has better things to do or he is busy studying or... How about anyone else....? I have a SDA friend I am currently debating this topic with. He says, "I see the Pre-Advent Judgment more as an eternal audit in which God's character is vindicated to asure that sin will never rise again." He likens it to an audit because it is done after the fact. It is checking on the decisions that have already been made. Was it done accurately? Of course, this does not set right with me. Why does God need to be vindicated? How can anyone ever say that God has been unfair in His mercy? He said that the IJ is a security for him because when God is doing these couble checks it is assuring him that sin is gon and it will never be back. It all seems so conviluted that I am unsure where to begin in my questions or response. Any ideas? | ||
| Freeatlast Registered user Username: Freeatlast Post Number: 215 Registered: 5-2002 |
"He said that the IJ is a security for him because when God is doing these couble checks it is assuring him that sin is gon and it will never be back." Apparently God's word given to us in Scripture isn't security enough for him on the subject... Funny how the Bible and the Bible alone never seems to be good enough for the cults. | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 78 Registered: 7-2004 |
Of course it's convoluted! It's just the modern SDA way of trying to still hold onto the IJ doctrine and make it sound more acceptable. Ask your friend where in the Bible it says anything about God being vindicated or double-checking the records! | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 698 Registered: 3-2004 |
God double checking the records???? It sounds like Santa Claus checking his list, twice. Very convoluted. If it is not Biblical, then I do not want it. And now I am studying to see if something is Biblical. I am not just believeing it because the pastor says it is so. Diana | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 885 Registered: 12-2003 |
Like Raven said, your friend's answer is just the current Adventist way of convincing us to hang onto the IJ. Without it, as Angel Rodriguez from the General Conference said publicly a few years ago, the SDA church has no reason to exist. This argument places human understanding as the top "value" in the eternal scheme of things, not God's sovereignty. God nowhere promises that He will explain His ways to us. In fact, Psalms and Job are quite full of statements to the contrary, that no one can understand God's ways. The glory of God is the ultimate "value" in the universe. All human understanding, human life, human doubt--all else is subject to God's glory. Jesus said his sheep follow Him, and no one can snatch them out of his or his Father's hands. (John 10:28) None of us needs to have God's knowledge of the rest of His sheep revealed to us. We will be able to see, as time runs out, how God deals with evil and how He establishes His new heaven and earth. We will have no doubt about the destruction of sin and our eternal security. We certainly don't need any convoluted "judgment" to convince us God is just and merciful. We will watch it happen. Further, when we really know Jesus, we can see both His justice and mercy at work in our own experiences. This is all the revelation we need outside the revealed word of God in the Bible. God does not have to answer to us. As Job discovered, we ultimately must bow in utter submission to Him because we cannot know or understand His ways. We can only worship and honor Him and praise Him for his mercy and grace to us. Any way you paint the IJ, it's unbiblical. Neither Jesus reveiwing our records to establish whether or not we are "safe to save" (that Maxwellian prhase that now raises the hairs on the back of my neck!) nor God revealing His dealings with people to us to vindicate His decisions to us is Biblical. The former denigrates God's sovereignty by saying He had no way of knowing who belonged to Him before 1844; the latter explanation denigrates God's sovereignty and puts us in a position to judge and approve of God. He created us and the universe out of nothing; the arrogance for us to assume that He owes us explanations for the mysteries that are in Him is astonishingly disrespectful to Him. Tell your friend to go the Bible and study the subject of judgment. Ask him/her to discover for himself what the word of God says. The truth is not in our own rationalizing nor is it in the writings of a false prophet. Praying for you, Dd! Colleen | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 48 Registered: 7-2004 |
It's the SDA party line to say that the IJ is necessary to "vindicate" God's government. If anyone tells you that, he is merely parroting what he has been told by the church and hasn't really taken the time to study it out for himself. There are any number of threads on here to lead you through that study if you need it. Just know that you are hearing brainwashing when you hear that phrase about God needing vidication. | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 61 Registered: 10-2004 |
Dd, I apologize for taking so long to respond to this thread. I typed up half of a post the other day, and I hope to finish the rest of the post soon. Colleen, Also, how does the IJ help those of us on earth to "see" anything? We don't have a clue what God has been doing in heaven for over 160 years now! How does it help us at all?? Jeremy | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 65 Registered: 10-2004 |
Dd, What I'll do is move our posts from the other thread over to here by quoting them.
Well, I decided to read the entire book of Hebrews, and share things which stuck out to me. I have read through chapter 8, and so I'll go through the first 8 chapters now, and then I'll get to chapter 9 as I promised.  The whole theme of the book of Hebrews (as others have said) is to show how Jesus is infinitely better than everyone and everything else. Infinitely better than the angels, than Moses, than previous rests (including the Sabbath day), than the high priests, the Law, the Levitical priesthood, the temple services and animal sacrifices, etc. First of all, in chapter 1, verses 1-2, it says: "God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world." (Hebrews 1:1-2 NASB.) Ellen G. White perverts this text and changes it to say what she wants in the following blasphemous quote: "In ancient times God spoke to men by the mouth of prophets and apostles. In these days He speaks to them by the testimonies of His Spirit. There was never a time when God instructed His people more earnestly than He instructs them now concerning His will and the course that He would have them pursue." (Testimonies for the Church, Volume Five, page 661, paragraph 1.) She deletes Jesus and puts herself in place of Jesus!! God says He has spoken to us in these last days in His Son, not by EGW's "testimonies"! (Also note that she says, "There was never a time when God instructed His people more earnestly than He instructs them now concerning His will and the course that He would have them pursue." So, she's claiming that God never instructed His people more earnestly than through her! Even when JESUS Himself was on earth instructing His people, He didn't do it more earnestly than EGW!!!) Hebrews 1:3 says, "And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high;" (NASB) Jesus made purification of sins and then sat down on the right hand of God, "until [He] makes [His] enemies a footstool for [His] feet" (verse 13). He is not making atonement for our sins right now, as EGW claimed. Now on to chapter 6. (There may have been something else before chapter 6 that I wanted to talk about, but I don't see anything right now, unless I were to discuss the Sabbath.) "This hope we have as an anchor of the soul, a hope both sure and steadfast and one which enters within the veil, where Jesus has entered as a forerunner for us, having become a high priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek." (Hebrews 6:19-20 NASB.) Now this passage proves that Jesus entered the Most Holy Place, not the Holy Place for 1800 years as EGW and the IJ teaches! "[W]ithin the veil" has to refer to the Most Holy Place because it says, "having become a high priest..." All of the priests could enter the Holy Place, but only the High Priest could enter the Most Holy Place. Therefore, the text is teaching that Jesus entered the Most Holy Place. Also, it says, "where Jesus has entered as a forerunner for us..." That would not be referring to the Holy Place, but the Most Holy Place, where God's Presence is. In fact, the NKJV translates the passage this way: "This hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and steadfast, and which enters the Presence behind the veil, where the forerunner has entered for us, even Jesus, having become High Priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek." Hebrews 7, verses 11-12 and 18-19 are a couple of noteworthy passages: "Now if perfection was through the Levitical priesthood (for on the basis of it the people received the Law), what further need was there for another priest to arise according to the order of Melchizedek, and not be designated according to the order of Aaron? For when the priesthood is changed, of necessity there takes place a change of law also." (Hebrews 7:11-12 NASB.) "For, on the one hand, there is a setting aside of a former commandment because of its weakness and uselessness (for the Law made nothing perfect), and on the other hand there is a bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God." (Hebrews 7:18-19 NASB.) Hebrews 7:24-25 (NASB) says: "but He [Jesus], on the other hand, because He abides forever, holds His priesthood permanently. Hence, also, He is able to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them." It says that because Jesus abides forever, He is able to save us forever, since He always lives to make intercession for us! In other words, as long as He abides, I am saved! He abides forever, and so I am saved forever! The SDAs say that He is only able to save us until He stops making intercession for us at the "close of probation," and then we have to "save ourselves," as we stand before God without an intercessor! The SDA doctrine is absolutely contradictory to this passage of Scripture. I've been reading Hebrews in "The Discovery Bible," which gives the Greek tenses for some words, and the emphasis which is in the Greek. In this next passage, I'll emphasize the words that our emphasized in the Greek: "For it was fitting that we should have such a high priest, holy, innocent, undefiled, separated from sinners [note: this does not sound like someone with a sinful nature, as EGW and SDAs teach!] and exalted above the heavens; who does not need daily, like those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the sins of the people, because this He did once for all when He offered up Himself." (Hebrews 7:26-27 NASB.) Clearly, Jesus made atonement for our sins once for all, He is not making atonement in heaven for us, and Satan does not need to finish the atonement as the "scapegoat"! "But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, by as much as He is also the mediator of a better covenant, which has been enacted on better promises." (Hebrews 8:6 NASB.) The bold indicates minor emphasis in the Greek; the bold with italics indicates major emphasis in the Greek. Going back to chapter 7, verse 22 also says, "so much the more also Jesus has become the guarantee of a better covenant." Twice the New Covenant is called a "better covenant" than the Old Covenant!
Now, here's something interesting and exciting I discovered with "The Discovery Bible"! The word for "new" when it says "new covenant" in that passage is "kainos" in the Greek. It means, "new in quality; new and different; 34a [kainos] usually involves bringing in a superior innovation or advance and corresponds to 8b (heteros), another of a different kind." The other word for new which is not used in this passage is "neos," which means, "new in time; recent; young; unlike 34a [kainos], 34b [neos] may have exactly the same ingredients as that which it replaces; corresponds to 8a (allos), 'another of the same kind'" So, the New Covenant is "new and different" and cannot have "exactly the same ingredients as that which it replaces," the Old Covenant. So SDAs cannot say that the New Covenant is "the Old Covenant (10 Commandments) only written on our hearts"! Next, I'll get to chapter 9, like I said I would. God bless, Jeremy | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 66 Registered: 10-2004 |
Oops, I didn't give the reference for that last Bible passage that I quoted. It is Hebrews 8:7-13 (NASB). Jeremy | ||
| Dd Registered user Username: Dd Post Number: 185 Registered: 7-2004 |
Jeremy, Bless you. I am so sorry that I have out of town guest now. I would rather be in my Bible. Thanks for the wonderful Scripture. I have printed this off and will look it over as time allows and will get back with you soon. Have a wonderful weekend. | ||
| Logophile Registered user Username: Logophile Post Number: 1 Registered: 11-2004 |
New kid on the block... The title of this thread particularly caught my notice, as I happen to have some interest in Daniel. I don't know that I ever made a really thorough study of the Investigative Judgment; however, it seems to me that that's supposed to be what the court scene in Daniel 7 is about. But according to verses 21-22, the ruling of the court is in favor of the saints and against the horn, which is persecuting the saints. Anyway, something that I've not noticed discussed much in connection with Daniel 7 is how it complements Revelation 5 to portray the one "like a son of man" as our Kinsman-Redeemer. Has anyone else noticed this? | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 931 Registered: 12-2003 |
Welcome, Logophile! We'd love to hear a bit about you and your story. We're glad you're here. Daniel 7 pictures the return of Jesus when God pronounces judgment against the wicked and removes them from power. Jesus then rules over all, and "all peoples, nations and men of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed." (Daniel 7:14--see also verse 22-27) This description is of Christ's return to earth and corresponds not to 1844 but to the rock cut out without hands that comes and crushes the image of Daniel's vision. I love the description of Jesus in Revelation 5 as "a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain, standing in the center of the throne, encircled by the four living creatures and the elders." The elders and the four living creatures sang "a new song" praising the Lamb as the one worthy to take the scroll and open it because "you were slain, and with your blood you purchased men for God from every tribe and language and people and nation." And then every creature on heaven and on earth and on the sea sings, "To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power, for ever and ever!" Amen! Colleen | ||
| Carol_2 Registered user Username: Carol_2 Post Number: 179 Registered: 2-2002 |
A very warm welcome Logophile! We look forward to hearing more from you! Carol | ||
| Praisegod Registered user Username: Praisegod Post Number: 159 Registered: 3-2004 |
Welcome Logophile. We'd love to hear a little bit about you. Praise God... | ||
| Logophile Registered user Username: Logophile Post Number: 2 Registered: 11-2004 |
My background, briefly: brought up Seventh-day Adventist. Developed an interest in Daniel and Revelation at a relatively young age; accepted what I read in the SDA Bible Commentary, though disenchanted by the fact that I apparently couldn't study and understand for myself. (Gave up too quickly, I suppose.) Later, encountered teaching of one Larry Wilson, and interest in prophecy was rekindled. Attempted to share some of this with a former pastor who, unfortunately, took issue on the grounds that "Ellen White clearly said, ..." Pastor was/is a great guy, but he seemed to be of the mindset that one doesn't question what Ellen White wrote. Current views on Daniel and Revelation are rather different from those of the SDA church. Perhaps most significantly (since it's part of the SDA Fundamental Beliefs), I differ with the understanding of Daniel 8:14. What the 2,300 evenings-mornings mean, and when they occur, I don't know. I do not think 1844 is defensible from the Bible; and besides, it is very clear that the author of Hebrews envisioned Jesus having already entered the Most Holy Place. I joined this forum at the recommendation of a very close friend, who is at present asking questions about the seventh-day Sabbath. Thanks for the warm welcome. P.S. Any way to sort threads by date of most recent post? | ||
| Carol_2 Registered user Username: Carol_2 Post Number: 182 Registered: 2-2002 |
Hi again Logophile! That's interesting....my mom started reading and studying Larry Wilson's materials about 12 years ago or so. Got me studying it for a while, and even attended one of his seminars. My mother is still very staunch SDA, but also very supportive of Larry's ministry and from what I understand agrees with his end-time beliefs. That causes me to question for the first time ever....just never thought about it before, how she can uphold the SDA church and EGWhite, which she does (uphold EGW,) and agree with Larry's end-time teachings. Doesn't that cause her to question Ellen's prophetic abilities???? What do you think Logophile??? Another welcome....may God bless you as He has richly blessed me through this forum. Love and prayers to all, Carol | ||
| Carol_2 Registered user Username: Carol_2 Post Number: 183 Registered: 2-2002 |
P.S. I'm not super computer literate....but I just go to the bottom of the thread and click on "Last Day" or "Last Week" to see recent posts. Is that what you're asking? | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 937 Registered: 12-2003 |
You can also click "search" at tht bottom of the page and select messages within as many hours or days as you wish. Colleen | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 96 Registered: 7-2004 |
Welcome, Logophile! I remember who Larry Wilson is from when he lived in Dayton Ohio, and I recall the rumors about him. That was when he was just starting to deviate from standard SDA teachings. I checked out his website and can see that the SDA influence is still very heavy in his ideas. I also found several interesting charts he has put together. I think if William Miller could see them, he would be impressed! Here's the web address: http://www.wake-up.org/Charts/ChartIndex.htm |
