| Author | Message | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 867 Registered: 12-2003 |
Thanks for the quote, Dennis. You know, the thing that continues to disturb me is that contemporary Adventists have all but destroyed--certainly they have suppressed--these heretical statements. They are indignant if we (or others) quote them. Yet these very statements continue to be the bedrock of Adventist doctrines and theology. The most liberal and gospel-oriented Adventist is still bound to these blasphemous statements. One cannot simply wave Ellen away by saying "She served a good purpose when the church needed a prophetic voice," or "I don't believe that..." She IS the church's Spirit of Prophecy, and it is not renouncing her. These statements are real, and they helped establish the teachings that every Seventh-day Adventist is shaped by even if they don't know it. I continue to pray that God will expose and break the spirit of Adventism and that Adventists will be awakened to see and accept the astonishing freedom of being in Christ, set free by His completed work at Calvary. Colleen | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 685 Registered: 3-2004 |
Colleen, I am with you when it comes to EGW and accepting only Jesus. He is so liberating. Diana | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 203 Registered: 4-2000 |
Both of the quotes from EGW about the investigative judgment teach that Satan can actually intercept our prayers and even answer them in a bogus manner. Therefore, our prayers are "useless" if we are unaware of the investigative judgment beginning in 1844. What an aberration of the Christian faith! Interestingly, I am currently having a dialogue with the associate director of the White Estate. He sent me two e-mails yesterday. Like the late F. D. Nichol, if these guys wouldn't try so hard to defend Ellen White, they would be alot more credible. Dennis J. Fischer | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 68 Registered: 7-2004 |
I have heard those quotes from as early as a young child. It wouldn't surprise me if they had a big influence on how I have viewed prayer. For example, even though I normally pray in my head anyway, there have been times I would specifically only pray in my head for the very reason that I didn't want Satan to have any influence on the prayer, since he can't read my mind! Makes one wonder how many other warped views and sick ideas are a part of me from the EGW influence. | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 553 Registered: 7-2003 |
Dennis, that's fascinating about Satan intercepting our prayers. I didn't know that. i used to tell B about some of my convictions from prayer and that I was following the Spirit's leading...and he would ask "what spirit?" and I really didn't understand until you said that about what he meant. But when he talks about his prayers and his "spiritual" leading, it is always the "right" spirit ... I guess because it lines up with EGW and adventism?? | ||
| Pheeki Registered user Username: Pheeki Post Number: 407 Registered: 1-2003 |
Raven, I always prayed in my head because I feared that the Devil would hear them and know what I was scared of and make it happen. I sure gave the Devil a lot of power...thanks to Ellen. | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 73 Registered: 7-2004 |
Glad I'm not the only one, Pheeki! And I was thinking right after my last post, that SDA's do tend to give the devil a lot of power! I used to have frequent nightmares as a child about demon possession, because it seemed we heard a lot of stories about that in Sabbath School. I didn't feel safe, because I figured if I had one unconfessed sin, I was a prime target for the devil to do whatever he wanted with me! There have even been times that I thought even if the devil can't read my thougts, he can place thoughts in my head, and then he automatically knows what I'm thinking. It just seemed within SDA thinking, that it's practically hopeless! The funny thing is, that way of thinking makes protection from the devil seem to be within our power (like making sure we're completely on God's side, all sins confessed, etc.), instead of trusting Jesus to keep us completely safe. | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 1053 Registered: 11-2002 |
Yes, Raven and Pheeki and the others, I also was taught that satan could influence the outcome of our prayers. I was also taught that satan has no access to our thoughts. I remember hearing stories as a child about how satan would keep people from following the truth. One story was about a Sunday-keeping family who had become convinced of the SDA truth. The family had prayed about making a commitment to the Sabbath (in SDA lingo that always means the SDA organization). They had got in their car to go tell the SDA minister they were ready to be bapitized into the truth. On their trip across town to see the pastor they got killed in a car wreck. Satan had sucessfully kept them from eternal life with Jesus by getting them killed just in the nick of time. I heard so many of those warped and sick stories gowing up. It's a wonder I'm as normal as I am. Ha! Ha! I'm joking in the last sentence but honest it is amazing we on ths discussion board aren't mentioning having anxiety attacks growing up and suffering depression and other major addictions, etc. more often as a coping mechanism to deal with all that mean spirited garble we were filled with. I praise His Holy Name that we on here have the peace of all peace. It truly is in spite of our upbringing and not because of it. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 871 Registered: 12-2003 |
Susan, your observation that the craziness of Adventism ought to be causing anxiety and depression is, I believe, actually true. I believe it does cause those things. In spite of its public rhetoric, it is a religion that has a very powerful, invasive devil and a demi-god Jesus. We, not the Holy Spirit, are responsible for our moral and spiritual health. We are responsible for resisting the devil on our own, choosing to do right by sheer strength of will, etc. They'll SAY all this is with the Holy Spirit's power, but they mean the Holy Spirit is a sort of extra force that will help us do what's necessary. Melissa, Richard has also been rebuffed several times with statements/questions like, "What spirit is it that's answering your prayers?" Of course, this view comes straight out of Ellen. It MUST be the devil if we've rejected Ellen. Praise God for the Bible alone! Colleen | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 56 Registered: 10-2004 |
Pheeki, that's exactly how I've been, too! EGW gives Satan way too much power...way more than he has. She says that Satan controls the weather and causes diseases! "While appearing to the children of men as a great physician who can heal all their maladies, he will bring disease and disaster, until populous cities are reduced to ruin and desolation. Even now he is at work. In accidents and calamities by sea and by land, in great conflagrations, in fierce tornadoes and terrific hailstorms, in tempests, floods, cyclones, tidal waves, and earthquakes, in every place and in a thousand forms, Satan is exercising his power. He sweeps away the ripening harvest, and famine and distress follow. He imparts to the air a deadly taint, and thousands perish by the pestilence. These visitations are to become more and more frequent and disastrous. Destruction will be upon both man and beast." (The Great Controversy, pages 589-590.) Also, she says that we can't have our sins "remembered no more" until Satan bears them! She teaches that Satan bears the penalty and punishment for our sins and that the atonement for our sins is not complete until Satan bears them! She says that Satan blots out our sins! She says that Satan is the one who separates our sins from us forever, not Jesus!!! She also writes this horrifying sentence: "Tell them to pray much that their sins may be confessed upon the head of the scapegoat and borne away into the land of forgetfulness." (Manuscript Releases, Volume Nineteen, page 131, paragraph 3.) They were supposed to pray that Satan would save them from their sins!!! PRAY to WHO?! She doesn't say! And I don't think I want to know... YIKES!!! I just found a quote here...a letter from the Spalding and Magan Collection on the EGW cd-rom. Look at this astonishing quote!
Notice that she makes it absolutely clear in that quote that if Satan didn't bear away our sins we would be LOST!!! WHAT SATANIC BLASPHEMY!!! The scapegoat doctrine is pure satan worship. We really need to expose this doctrine more. BTW, Leviticus 16:22 says, "And the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities..." Compare that with Isaiah 53:11, "...for he shall bear their iniquities." And John 1:29 (NASB), "Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!" The Scapegoat is JESUS! Praise the Lord! Jeremy | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 688 Registered: 3-2004 |
I understand what you are saying about giving Satan power in our lives by the way we prayed. I also learned that if I prayed out loud he would know what I wanted. Now I pray out loud because I know Jesus is all powerful and has overcome Satan and the world. I do not have to fear Satan any more. Jesus won that war on the cross and the great contorversy is all in the minds of those who believe EGW. Thank you God for being so awesome. Diana | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 874 Registered: 12-2003 |
I have read SDA arguments against the conclusion that Satan as scapegoat does not actually bear our sins, but they are, again, clever plays with words and phrases to obfuscate the true meaning behind this teaching. You are right, Jeremy--Ellen actually did teach that Satan would ultimately be our sin-bearer and would receive the most severe punishment in the final fire because of his leading us astray. I also find the SDA version of the scapegoat to be sinister from another angle as well. Leviticus describes the ceremony on the Day of Atonement in which two unblemished kids were selected, and by casting lots, one was chosen to be the burnt offering, and the other was chosen to be the scapegoat. For Ellen to say that the scapegoat is Satan, she is confiming the subtle but recurring theme in her writings that Jesus and Satan were at one time equal, but one "went bad", and one was chosen by God to be exalted. Mormonism teaches (as do other cults) that Jesus and Satan were brothers, and they got into a fight and they're still duking it out, so to speak. This belief really does seem to underly much of Ellen's writing. It's also suggested in "Jesus is Michael the archangel". It's no wonder Adventists in general seldom have a really exalted understanding of Jesus and no real fear of being lost. Suffering will be limited if they're lost, and Satan will bear the brunt of the punishment anyway. It's also no wonder that they really do not have an understanding of why Jesus had to die and what his blood accomplished. They say the right words, but they don't really "get it". Praise God for teaching us truth and redeeming the past! Colleen | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 57 Registered: 10-2004 |
Also, how can satan be without blemish? To say that satan is the scapegoat without blemish is pure blasphemy and satan worship. They also don't seem to care that Leviticus 16 says that the scapegoat is one of 2 goats "for a sin offering"! And it also says about the scapegoat, "...to make an atonement with him." Not only does EGW teach that Jesus and Satan were once equals, she even teaches that Satan at one point had the position that Jesus had had previously, before He "was made equal with God"! Actually, EGW says that Satan only bears the sins of (and the penalty of the sins of) the righteous, and that the lost have to bear the punishment for their own sins. She teaches that God rewards Satan for dragging as many people as he can to hell with him (less punishment)! It's all digusting satanic, satan-worship doctrine. And people think it's a Christian church! Jeremy | ||
| Dd Registered user Username: Dd Post Number: 175 Registered: 7-2004 |
Jeremy - What is the Spalding and Magan Collection? | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 62 Registered: 10-2004 |
The Spalding and Magan Collection is a book which is a collection of EGW letters etc. It's on the E.G. White Estate cd-rom of all of EGW's published writings. Jeremy | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 217 Registered: 4-2000 |
Last Monday I wrote a three-page letter to an Adventist apologist on the topic of annihilationism/soul sleep/conditionalism. Earlier this evening, we chatted by phone on the same topic. Adventists like to cite the example of Lazarus being raised from the dead. To them, this miracle by Jesus is supposedly to reveal the falsity of human beings having a dualistic nature. They make a big deal, almost laughingly, about Lazarus' soul (spirit) having to travel or being recalled to Lazarus in order for him to be raised from the dead according to the traditional view. Utilizing SDA theology, I explained how Adventists believe that at death their breath (spark of life) returns back to God who gave it in the first place. I further pointed out, that with the SDA view, the "breath" had to be recalled from heaven in order for Lazarus' sleeping body to come to life again. At this point he said, "I've never heard of that before." I then replied, "We are not that far apart in our views after all." Hopefully, he realized that SDA theology also requires a disembodied "something" to reunite with the body in order to bring it back to life. According to SDA belief, without that "spark of life" recalled from heaven, Lazarus could not come to life from his sleeping state. Dennis J. Fischer | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 932 Registered: 12-2003 |
Great point, Dennis! Colleen | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 78 Registered: 7-2004 |
Dennis, In addition the "breath" that you pointed out, I have always thought that SDA's use of the idea of character became a kind of pseudo-Spirit. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 941 Registered: 12-2003 |
Ric--I'd never thought of that, but you're right. "Your character is the only thing you can take with you," they would say. No one ever bothered to ask how that would work if people did not "exist" during their deaths! (I guess they would say God resurrects them with the character they developed re-created from His memory...?!) Colleen | ||
| Freeatlast Registered user Username: Freeatlast Post Number: 227 Registered: 5-2002 |
Colleen, that was Ellen White's position. "As they come up from the grave, they resume the current of their thoughts just where it ceased. They are actuated by the same desire to conquer that ruled them when they fell." Great Controversy, pg. 664, paragraph 1 |
