| Author |
Message |
Jeremy
Registered user
Username: Jeremy
Post Number: 126
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, November 21, 2004 - 10:37 am: |     |
Adrian,
You sure had me trying to figure that out for awhile there!  I didn't think Pastor Mark believed that way, although I know he doesn't like to use the phrase "once saved, always saved." But I am pretty sure he does believe in OSAS.
Well, at least Greg is close to OSAS. ;-)
Jeremy |
Krista
Registered user
Username: Krista
Post Number: 42
Registered: 8-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, November 21, 2004 - 11:42 am: | |
Very interesting conversation! Thanks everyone and to Dennis for the Falling from Grace post.
Adrian, first, I don't think that's a good idea about "working" on Doug B. and I don't think he's going to change his thinking... so what would be the point? Also, did you get permission from Pastor Greg to post his comments? I hope you did!
God bless! |
Dennis
Registered user
Username: Dennis
Post Number: 230
Registered: 4-2000
| | Posted on Sunday, November 21, 2004 - 12:31 pm: | |
Adrian,
Your references to pre-Fall angels and man takes you away from the New Covenant of Jesus Christ. It is important to know what flag we are flying under. Our eternal security in Christ is indeed a vital part of his New Covenant. Only under the New Covenant are we indwelt by the Holy Spirit--reborn into a new creation. Wow, what good news that the God of heaven actually lives in us at the point of regeneration. Born again Christians are the only kind recognized and preserved by heaven. No other example, from any other Covenant, applies to our gift of salvation in being "sealed for the day of redemption" (Eph.4:30). Indeed, "God never changes his mind about the people he calls and the things he gives them" (Romans 11:29 NCV).
Adam was not under the New Covenant--his was the Adamic Covenant; Noah was not under the New Covenant--his was the Noahic Covenant; Moses was not under the New Covenant--his was the Mosaic or Old Covenant, etc. God has dealt differently with his people down through the ages. The New Covenant is not simply a warmed-over Old Covenant. The "ministry of death" is obsolete and has "no glory." (see 2 Cor. 3:7-10) Praise God, we live under the New Covenant that is unfading and surpasses (supercedes) the Old Covenant. As priest-believers we have direct intercessory access to God.
Dennis J. Fischer |
4drian
Registered user
Username: 4drian
Post Number: 23
Registered: 11-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, November 21, 2004 - 3:12 pm: | |
Your're welcome Dane,
I'm glad to see I'm not alone here.
Belvalew,
I pretty much agree with what you have to say but as far as Judas is concerned, we have to be careful that we do not fall back on our SDA teachings. EGW taught that Judas joined up with Jesus on his own but the bible teaches that Judas was "chosen" by Jesus. Jesus states this very clearly and it is only one of many contradictions between EGW and the bible. We can make all sorts of suppositions but only God knows for sure what was in Judas' mind.
I personaly think that he had some good intentions but that he taught he was better than Jesus. He wanted Jesus to be an eartly Messiah and, when he saw that Jesus had no interest in an earthly kingdom, he decided it was up to him to make it happen. Judas did not recognize Jesus for who He truly was. I hope this is not coming from my SDA upbringing but I honestly can't tell you why I think this way. I'm going to have to do some more studying on the subject some day.
Krista,
I did get permission.
Dennis,
You're missing the point. Adam was not under the Adamic covenant until after he sinned. Before the fall, Adam was perfect and God was with him. He was in the state that we will be restored to at the Second Coming and yet, he was able to sin.
-Adrian (vlad) |
Jeremy
Registered user
Username: Jeremy
Post Number: 127
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, November 21, 2004 - 4:44 pm: | |
Adrian,
The difference, as Dennis pointed out, is that we are sealed by the Holy Spirit "unto the day of redemption" (Ephesians 4:30). We cannot lose our salvation.
Jeremy |
Sabra
Registered user
Username: Sabra
Post Number: 271
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, November 21, 2004 - 6:20 pm: | |
Adrian,
I think of it like this:
God is eternal, doesn't exist in time. He knows the beginning from the end so He sees us saved or lost.
Take Judas, for example. He probably appeared to be saved to the other disciples and others but the bible says he was the son of perdition from the foundation of the world. Had he been saved and then lost, he wouldn't have been stealing form the treasury the whole time, he was never saved. God knew his choice and used him for fulfilling His purpose. The choice was still his, but God knew what it would be.
So, then, God sees us lost or saved before we know what the two are. He "Is" He isn't going to be or was, He just is the Great I Am.
Does that help?
|
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 985
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, November 21, 2004 - 10:25 pm: | |
While it's true that Adam was one with God before he sinned, his situation was different from that which we will experience after Jesus creates the new heaven and the new earth. One of the most obvious differences is that Satan will be thrown into the lake of fire; he will no longer be free to deceive creatures. Satan was alive and well in the Garden of Eden.
I tend to agree with Greg's quote above where he says not too get to focussed on semantics. There really are questions about this issue that we cannot completely explain, although I do believe that the New Testament is clear that our salvation is completely secure when we are born again.
While you make a good point, Adrian, about Adam being perfect and one with God yet sinning aginst Him, still Adam was not lost. Yes, he had to repent, but God knew from the foundation of the earth that Adam was His and would repent of his sin and be saved.
I believe that we can't really argue spiritual issues philosophically and arrive at accurate understandings because spiritual issues are spiritually, not intellectually, discerned. I believe absolutely that God foreknows and predestines us (Romans 8 and 9 are totally clear about this fact). I also absolutely believe that God has given us the power to make choices that have eternal consequences, not only for ourselves but also for other people. (For example, when we choose to live by the flesh instead of by the Spirit, we do things not only that hurt ourselves but which hurt others as well. Those hurts that happen affect us permanently even though God redeems everything we submit to Him.) While there is some apparent contradiction in these two ideas, they are both biblical.
Paradox is the nature of truth. We just can't see quite enough to explain logically all the questions these facts raise. Yet we know that God's word cannot fail, and God asks us to have faith in Him even when we can't understand the details.
I realize I might sound as if I'm being a bit flip about these things, but I really am not. God's sovereignty is increasingly a reality to me, and I find it amazingly reassuring. I have come to the place where the reality of my free choice does not seem to conflict with God's sovereignty. I can't completely explain this, but I know that my life was written in his book before one of my days had come to be (Psalm 139:16).
Colleen |
Dennis
Registered user
Username: Dennis
Post Number: 231
Registered: 4-2000
| | Posted on Sunday, November 21, 2004 - 11:23 pm: | |
Dane,
The Bible makes it clear that we choose out of our desires. Being that none of us has a NEUTRAL free will, we cannot choose what we do not desire. Man is in a serious state of moral bondage. That state is called ORIGINAL SIN. Unless God does something first, man will never choose Christ on his own because he does not naturally desire him. By nature we are children of wrath. We are not born in a state of innocence. We must be reborn to enter heaven.
The neutral view of free will is impossible. It involves choice without desire. That is like having an effect without a cause. It is something from nothing which is irrational. On the one hand, if we make choices strictly from a neutral posture (meaning without any prior prejudice, inclination, or disposition), then we make choices for no reason.
In summary, before the Fall man was able to refrain from sinning; after the Fall man is no longer able to refrain from sinning. That is what we call original sin. This moral inability or moral bondage is overcome by spiritual rebirth. Rebirth liberates us from original sin. Before rebirth, we still have a free will but we do not have this liberation from the power of sin. Interestingly, Arminians believe that once in heaven we are eternally secure despite our free wills being fully intact. However, if heaven will not violate our free will, then why would it be violated on this side of heaven when sealed by the Holy Spirit?
Dennis J. Fischer |
Ric_b
Registered user
Username: Ric_b
Post Number: 88
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Monday, November 22, 2004 - 5:25 am: | |
I have been participating in a discussion on grace on another board. Another really great comment was posted this morning that I thought applied to this discussion.
"8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
The verb "saved" is in the perfect passive indicative. I spend a great deal of time looking for perfect passives and it was my great joy to find one in this passage. The greek perfect tense has no english eqivalent. English just basically has past present and future tense, but greek is much more definative. It amazes me at the wisdom of God in having His Word written in one of the most descriptive languages ever. Anyway the perfect tense is past action as is the aorist tense, but the aorist tense is a completed past action. The perfect tense is also a completed past action, but has a resulted state of being.
Therefore verse 8 would should read "for by grace you have been saved and stand saved forever", because the perfect tense is a completed action with continuing results.
The passive voice shows an action that is done to us by someone else and in this case God. In other words God saved us and that is our eternal state of being, period! It is His work, not ours, we are just receivers of that tremendous blessing. That means not even a dumby like me can screw it up, I get goose bumps just thinking about it! Which immediately brings this Romans 11:33-36 to mind"
Having barely made it through the one year of Biblical Greek I took in college, I'll leave any discussion of the accuracy of this explanation to others. But if accurate, it makes an awfully strong statement about our assurance. |
Tracey
Registered user
Username: Tracey
Post Number: 83
Registered: 9-2004
| | Posted on Monday, November 22, 2004 - 8:25 am: | |
Diana,
To your comment about reading the bible for yourself and understanding it... AMEN!! |
Dane
Registered user
Username: Dane
Post Number: 73
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Monday, November 22, 2004 - 9:51 am: | |
Dennis and Ric,
Thanks for your thoughtful comments. Isn't it great to be able to share viewpoints and grow together?
We actually started having this conversation on the thread "Are You Sure You Like Spurgeon?" I reviewed some of the last posts we made. Again, I am amazed at how God leads us to explore things that we may disagree on, and do it with compassion towards each other.
Now, as I indicated in one of my last posts on the other thread, I think it would be helpful if we took some time to carefully define some of the terms we are using. In doing so we may discover that our views on this topic are more convergent than meets the eye.
If it's OK, I'll commit my next post here to defining how I'm using certain terms that I think are critical to the discussion. I've got to run at the moment because my wife is insisting that we go for a walk.
Dane |
Raven
Registered user
Username: Raven
Post Number: 110
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Monday, November 22, 2004 - 4:52 pm: | |
Here's a poem I just received by e-mail that I thought might fit on this thread. Does it rub anyone else the wrong way like it does me? I researched it on the internet and found there is this version as well as a pagan version (Goddess instead of Lord). I think the way it portrays God, it sounds more pagan than Christian! I'm really thankful God doesn't get tired and He doesn't drop us!
BUTT PRINTS IN THE SAND
One night I had a wondrous dream,
One set of footprints there was seen,
The footprints of my precious Lord,
But mine were not along the shore.
But then some stranger prints appeared,
And I asked the Lord, "What have we here?"
Those prints are large and round and neat,
"But Lord, they are too big for feet."
"My child," He said in somber tones,
"For miles I carried you alone.
I challenged you to walk in faith,
But you refused and made me wait."
"You disobeyed, you would not grow,
The walk of faith, you would not know,
So I got tired, I got fed up,
And there I dropped you on your butt."
"Because in life, there comes a time,
When one must fight, and one must climb,
When one must rise and take a stand,
Or leave their butt prints in the sand."
|
Ric_b
Registered user
Username: Ric_b
Post Number: 90
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Monday, November 22, 2004 - 6:31 pm: | |
"So I got tired, I got fed up,
And there I dropped you on your butt."
What a sick and distorted view of God's patience and abundant grace. It may not have started with SDAs, but I can see why they quickly grabbed hold of it. |
Flyinglady
Registered user
Username: Flyinglady
Post Number: 776
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Monday, November 22, 2004 - 9:27 pm: | |
God does not drop us. Of that I am convinced and sure. But I know at times I have turned from Him and tried to wriggle out of his arms. So far God has not dropped me. This reminds me of something I learned in my 12 step program and that is "God did not bring you this far to drop you." I learned so much about God's love in my program, things I did not learn in SDA school. Thank you God for teaching me and using this program to get through to me. I do love you and you are so awesome.
Diana |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 988
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 23, 2004 - 7:38 am: | |
Raven, that poem is not just pagan, it's outright disrespectful in tone and portrays God as vindictive.
I read something really interesting and (to me) helpful re: this choice--predestination conversation yesterday. It's from "Making All things New" by Oswald Chambers. I'm going to quote some passages below.
"Our destiny is preordained, but we are free to choose which disposition we will be ruled by. We cannot alter our dispositon, but we can choose to let God alter itÖRedemption means that Jesus Christ can give us a new dispositionÖ
"No man has absolute free willÖGod is the only being who can act with absolute free will, and when His Spirit comes into us, He makes us free in will; consequently our obedience becomes of value.Ö
"Jesus Christ gives us salvation and sanctification, but the places we take hereafter depend upon our obedience and the disposal of the Father. There is no respect of persons with God for salvation, but there are degrees of position thereafter. We are all saved by the cup and the baptism of our Lord, but the position we take individually depends entirely upon our obedience to Him. [Read that obedience to Jesus, not the law.]
"The Bible reveals that when the Holy Spirit has come into us, every command of God is an enabling. Jesus Christ gives the power of His own disposition to anyone, that is why He is apparently so merciless on those of us who have received the Holy Spirit, because His demands on us are made according to His disposition, and not according to our human nature.
"Many will be saved through the fulfilling of the destiny of the Son of Man who have not been worth anything to God in this life: Their lives have been self-centered and wrong, they have not been lived on the foundation of the Son of God. Our destiny is to work out what God works in. It is not that our eternal salvation depends upon our doing it, but our value to God does, and also our position in the kingdom of God."
I really found the above helpful--I hadn't read Oswald Chambers in a while, and I picked up this particular book yesterday with no idea what I would read inside. Here was this chapter that spoke to this very discussion. I realize this is merely one man's understanding of this issue--but then, that's what all of our inisghts are!
I agree completely with what Dennis posted above--that we cannot make a decision for God without the intervention of the Holy Spirit. We are completely lost without His intervention. We cannot even say Yes to Him without His Spirit softening our hearts, giving us insight, and creating in us a desire to be spiritually alive.
Praise God for His amazing intervention in us!
Colleen |
Ric_b
Registered user
Username: Ric_b
Post Number: 91
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 23, 2004 - 8:16 am: | |
The more that we pondered this email, the more upset we became. Finally we replied to the author and people we knew in common that had been on the original distribution list (all SDAs). Our response is below. I'm sure many will think that we over-reacted, but I hope that a few will stop to actually think about it.
> > > So I got tired, I got fed up,
> > > And there I dropped you on your butt."
I realize that this poem may have been written tongue-in-cheek. But it
contains a dangerous lie about God's character. God's love, grace, and
patience know no bounds. His love and care for us isn't based on us
being good enough to deserve it, it is based on Him being gracious
anough to continue providing it.
Rom 8:35 Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will
tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or
peril, or sword? 36 Just as it is written, "FOR YOUR SAKE WE ARE BEING
PUT TO DEATH ALL DAY LONG; WE WERE CONSIDERED AS SHEEP TO BE
SLAUGHTERED." 37 But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer
through Him who loved us. 38 For I am convinced that neither death, nor
life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to
come, nor powers, 39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other created
thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in
Christ Jesus our Lord.
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Pheeki
Registered user
Username: Pheeki
Post Number: 430
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 23, 2004 - 10:23 am: | |
I think that was a perfect response. |
33ad
Registered user
Username: 33ad
Post Number: 123
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 23, 2004 - 11:36 am: | |
Ric,
I think Dale Ratzlaff (I may be wrong) used the analogy of Jesus throwing out a lifeline with a belt. As long as we keep the belt on, Jesus just keeps pulling, and we can't be lost. But the choice still remains with us wether or not we keep the belt on. We can choose to remove it. That is why there is a text that says " No man having put his hand to the plough, and turning back...."
Just a thought!
God bless,
Loren |
Jeremy
Registered user
Username: Jeremy
Post Number: 131
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 23, 2004 - 2:59 pm: | |
That's the difference in beliefs here.
The Bible says that we "have been saved" (past tense). Jesus has saved me. He does not keep pulling me/saving me. He has already rescued/saved me!
Jeremy |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 994
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 23, 2004 - 9:18 pm: | |
Great response, Ric & Raven!
Colleen |
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