| Author | Message | ||
| Krista Registered user Username: Krista Post Number: 39 Registered: 8-2004 |
Hi friends, I'm so confused on this issue! Someone recently told me that lots of people in the Bible have lost their salvation. If so, what's the point of being saved if it's that fragile? I know egw said this, but is it really Biblical? It was always my understanding, with all the churches I attended, that once you are saved - you are saved. Any ideas would be greatly appreciated! Thanks & God bless!  | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 114 Registered: 10-2004 |
Here is the short answer: No, you cannot lose your salvation. Biblical references? Hebrews 6:4-9; Hebrews 10:26-29; John 3:16; John 5:24; John 6:37-40; John 6:51a; John 10:27-29; 1 John 5:13; 1 John 2:19; 2 Corinthians 5:17; 1 Peter 1:23; 1 John 2:13, 5:4-5, Revelation 3:5; Hebrews 12:2, Philippians 1:6; 2 Timothy 1:12; 2 Corinthians 1:21-22; 2 Corinthians 5:5; Ephesians 1:13-14; Ephesians 4:30; Romans 5:8-10; Romans 8:29; Romans 8:30-39; and others! Pastor Mark Martin has two very excellent sermons on this topic, which I highly recommend listening to. One is called "The Promises of Jesus Christ--I Will Certainly Not Cast You Out" and is only available on cassette tape. You can order it here. The other one is called "He Will Keep You" and is available on cassette tape, CD, or video. We have the video and it's great, and it's only $5. You can order that sermon here. God bless, Jeremy | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 970 Registered: 12-2003 |
Krista, there are several places in the NT where the authors warn the believers not to fall away. Hebrews has six such warning, reminding them that if they reject the gospel, it will be much worse for them than if they had never accepted it. The way I understand this issue, however, is summarized by 1 John 2:18-19 where John discusses the spirit of antichrist and states that many antichrists have already come. Then he identifies "false brothers" this way: "They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us." In any fellowship of Christ-followers, there will always be at least three categories of people: the truly born again who live for Jesus and and want to serve Him; those who have been exposed to the gospel and respond to it intellectually, even becoming involved in "good works" and Christian activity, but they lack a heart surrender; those who have never professed belief and do not claim to be Christ-followers. They are "lookers", or the curious but as yet uncommitted. That second category--those who plunge into church life and profess to be Christians--can be confusing, and it really isn't up to us to decide who is in that category. That's God's business. The parable of the sower in Mattehw 13 has helped me a lot in understanding this issue. Remember? Some seed (the word of God) fell on the path, and the birds ate it without it ever germinating. Some seed fell on hard, rocky soil. It germinated and quickly grew lush-looking plants, but when the heat came, the plants withered and died because they had not put down roots. Some seed fell among the weeds. It germinated and grew, the but weeds of worldly cares and greed choked the gospel plants to death. Other seed fell on good soil, and the plants grew, rooted deeply, and produced a harvest. Those plants that did not put down roots and that were choked out by weeds, I believe, are people who superficially respond to the gospel, are attracted to it and appear to embrace it, but they do not surrender their hearts to Jesus. They do not put down roots in Him and in His word and allow the Holy Spirit to transform them. Intellectual assent does not equal saving faith. A person can be intellectually convinced of the truth about Jesus (as are the devils) but be unwilling to surrender all that they are to Him. Such a person is not born again. Here's what I know: if you have surrendered your life to Jesus, nothing can ever take you out of his hands--not falling into sin (He will come running after you, discipline you, and call you back to Himself!), not dry times when you feel far from the Lord; not sickness, opposition, suffering, or death. Absolutely nothing can ever take you out of His hands when you are His. You can be completely confident in your salvation! And you know you are His, because His Spirit witnesses to your spirit that you are His child. (Romans 8:16) That position is 100% secure! You can rest in that certainty, Krista! Colleen | ||
| 4drian Registered user Username: 4drian Post Number: 2 Registered: 11-2004 |
OkÖ I'm new here but here's my view on this. I don't have my bible with me right now but I know that in Romans, Paul specifically addresses the topic of believers who have fallen from grace. Paul states that such believers can be saved again if they re-dedicate their lives to Christ. Basically, if you have given you life to the Lord, you are saved. Even though you will sin, and you will because we are all sinners, you are still saved because Christ died for those sins (past, present, and future). However, you still have free choice. If you reject Christ, kick him out of your life, and reject his plan of salvation, then you will no longer be saved. Pastor Mark Martin, referenced above, has some very good sermons on this. Go to http://www.sdaoutreach.org/audio.cfm and listen to his sermons. I believe the one you want is called "No Condemnation" but if it's not, listen to all of them. They are very good. Bottom Line: A true Christian can safely say he/she is saved but God does not take away our freedom of choice. Even once we are saved, we still have the choice to say "No Lord, I don't want your sacrifice" and then we will be lost. I know this isn't the clear cut answer you were looking for but it is what I believe the bible teaches. May the Lord's peace be with you, -Adrian | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 116 Registered: 10-2004 |
Hello Adrian, Welcome to the forum! I don't know which passage you're referring to in Romans. I would like it if you could give me the reference. If all of our future sins have been forgiven, then how can we go to hell if all of our sins (including all of our future sins) have been forgiven?? How can we lose our salvation, if Jesus has forgiven all of our future sins?? God bless, Jeremy | ||
| Doc Registered user Username: Doc Post Number: 170 Registered: 2-2003 |
Hi Krista, The problem is, Christians are not agreed on this question, and that includes people on this forum, so you may still end up confused. I personally think that "once saved, always saved" is not correct. The doctrine comes from a theological system known as Calvinism, which has had a great influence on Western theology. This forum is for former Adventists, and so people are coming out of a system of theology which has given them no assurance of salvation. So it is understandable how they can latch on to an alternative theological view, which gives them absolute assurance. Unfortunately, I believe this system is also in error. In his letters, Paul has to deal with arguments from two extreme positions: legalism and antinomianism. Adventism falls into the error of legalism, that salvation is by adhering to various laws. Calvinism, in spite of the protests, can very easily be used to support the other error, that you are saved by grace, so it is OK to live a life of sin and still expect to get to heaven. The Bible does not teach this concept anywhere. Jesus did not die on the cross to provide salvation for us, so that we could then ignore God and live a life of self-indulgence. The concept of redemption means that Jesus has bought us, so we no longer belong to ourselves, we are to live to serve Him (1 Cor 6: 19-20). I found this site just yesterday, which addresses the idea of eternal security. There are some testimonies from former Calvinists which are worth listening to, in order to see the other side of the picture. People on FAF are coming out of legalism, and have certain experiences regarding that. These former Calvinists are coming out of antinomian Christianity, and have different experiences to share. http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/audiotestimonies.htm You will hear opinions to the contrary, so what you will have to do, is study very carefully what the Bible has to say on the subject. There are very many warnings in the New Testament about falling away, remaining in Christ, enduring to the end. And Paul, the great preacher of grace, states that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God (e.g. 1 Cor 6: 9; Gal 5: 6-21). How about this? "If we died with Him, we will also live with Him; if we endure, we will also reign with Him. If we disown Him, He will also disown us; if we are faithless, He will remain faithful. for He cannot disown Himself." (2 Tim 2: 7). I know this is idea is less pleasant than "once saved, always saved," but it is in the Bible. If you are in Christ, and are walking with Him, and trusting in Him for your salvation, and being led by the Holy Spirit, then you are saved. Present tense. You can either heed the warnings about not falling away, and enduring to the end, and make sure you remain in a close relationship with Christ, or you can trust in a man-made theological system which tells you it is impossible to fall away. It is up to you. God bless, Adrian (doc) | ||
| Theycallmegrace Registered user Username: Theycallmegrace Post Number: 4 Registered: 11-2004 |
"Blessed Assurance, Jesus is mine...!" The truest joy I have ever known is in finding this truth in God's Word. In coming out of adventism, I've been studying many different things, and in them all and throughout scripture, what I keep finding is grace and salvation security, complete at the cross. I was just reading Jude this morning and it was so powerful. Just read the first verse where Jude describes Christians as "preserved" in Jesus Christ. The greatest sin seems to be "unbelief". Belief in Christ and His perfect atonement covers all other sin, wipes it out! So, basically, what I believe is this, once a person truly believes in what Christ has done for him, that based on HIS love and HIS perfection and HIS works, he is saved forevermore, that person is, well... saved forevermore! The only possible way a person might lose this would be to stop believing. But does that happen once a person truly believes? I'm not finding evidence of that. Keep studying, look up the scriptures given by Jeremy, which is what I'm about to do! | ||
| Vchowdhury1 Registered user Username: Vchowdhury1 Post Number: 81 Registered: 7-2004 |
Good Topic! There is also an extreme version of ideas called Universalism. Universalism is an extreme belief that God will eventually save everybody in the world whether they except him as their savior or not. Is anyone familiar with this idea and where it comes from? Since this is so unbiblical, How is the idea of Universalism backed up by its believers? | ||
| 4drian Registered user Username: 4drian Post Number: 4 Registered: 11-2004 |
The Adrians agree completely. This must be a sign. But seriously, go to SDAoutreach.org and listen to Mark's sermons. He does a very good job of explaining that we can be confident that we are saved and yet we can still be lost if we make a second choice, to kick God out of our lives, once we've invited Him in. Here's how I see it: Once we freely invite Christ into our hearts and minds, we are saved through His death on the cross but this does not take away our freedom. Remember that we are in this situation to begin with because Adam used the freedom given to him by God to deny God. If after Adam God had decided that freedom was not good for mankind, he would have taken it away and we would be FORCED to follow Him. But God made man in His image and that includes freedom. So just like Adam, who was created perfect, yet was able to deny Christ, so we, who are made perfect in Christ, are nonetheless still able to deny Him and lose our salvation. P.S. I'll try to find the text from Romans when I get home. God bless, -Adrian (vlad) | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 119 Registered: 10-2004 |
Actually, Pastor Mark is a firm believer in eternal security--that you cannot lose your salvation. I know that Chuck Smith, the founder of Calvary Chapel, also believes in eternal security, but I'm sure this might vary from one Calvary Chapel to another. Jeremy | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 976 Registered: 12-2003 |
I believe that there really is a paradox here. The Bible does suggest that it is possible that some would fall away. Yet it is also clear that Jesus and the Father will never allow us to be snatched from their hands. I believe that when we are His, we know it. We do not need to fear that we might fall away. We are supposed to be able to live confidently in the certainty of our salvation. Exactly how the paradox might look from God's eternal perspective, we cannot know. From where He sits, however, there is no contradiction such as we perceive. One of the greatest gifts I've received since leaving Adventism is being certain that I am saved. God now is responsible for keeping me; I do not have to keep myself in His good graces. I believe we can be completely, absolutely certain that we do not need to fear losing our salvation. It also seems possible that situations might exist in which one might fall away, but those situations do not need to cause us to fear. We cannot really know what those situations might really entail, either. God alone knows our hearts and motives. God alone can judge us. Either we are in Christ, or we are not. There's no "maybe" or uncertainty there. I've become really comfortable living with paradox. As an Adventist, I had to KNOW how everything fit together; I had to KNOW what the REAL answers were. I'm learning that there is much more that I can never know this side of eternity than I ever though possible. And that's OK--because I know Who holds my future, and I know Who holds me! Colleen | ||
| 4drian Registered user Username: 4drian Post Number: 7 Registered: 11-2004 |
Ok... I want to continue on the same train of thought that I had earlier because, at least in my mind, I'm making a point Now.. Even though God created Adam in his own image, even though Adam was perfect, even though God loved Adam, He allowed Adam to fall. If once we are perfect we no longer have any choice, than sin would not have been allowed to exist in the first place; we would not be sinners and we would have no need for salvation. Now I can confidently say that I AM SAVED. However, if I were to tell God that I no longer want the salvation he has freely given me, than I know that he would not force it upon me. That message is transmitted throughout the whole bible. (God forced tasks upon people like Jonah but he never forced salvation upon anyone ñ the Devil included. Remember that the devil was once in a perfect state, as we are now through Christ, so using this theory, God should not have been allowed him to fall). I know that to most you, because you are sincere Christians, it is incomprehensible that you would no longer want to be saved... and that's why you have nothing to worry about. Now, here's the text in Romans I was talking about in an earlier post. --I added explanations in parentheses to give the context of the verse. I capitalized for emphasis. Romans 11:22 NIV Consider therefore the kindness and the sternness of God: sternness to those who fell (Jews who didn't accept Christ), but kindness to you (Gentile Christians), PROVIDED THAT YOU CONTINUE IN HIS KINDNESS. OTHERWISE, YOU ALSO WILL BE CUT OFF. Now if you read this whole chapter, you will see that Paul was talking to true believers in Jesus Christ; and yet he tells them that if they no longer continue in God's kindness, they will be CUT OFF. There are other verses like this throughout the New Testament but they are not meant to cause fear or uncertainty such as that present in the SDA church today. Most forms of Calvinism and Antinomianism are simply not accepted by most Christian churches just as SDA legalism is also not accepted. "Once saved aways saved" is just Antinomianism in a shiny new wrapper and is not accepted by most churches except in modified forms; one of which I will describe now: As for Pastor Mark, you are right Jeremy. I misunderstood him and did not do enough research before recommending him. He does believe in once saved always saved. However, he modifies this belief so as not to fall in to the traditional Antinomian heresy (that once you are saved you can live a completely sinful life and still be saved). Pastor Mark says that anyone who falls away from Christ is able to do so because they weren't saved in the first place. This belief creates a serious problem because if you carry it out to its logical conclusion (which Pastor Mark does not), you can no longer be certain you are saved. There are many Christians that fall away from the church and from God. Of these people Pastor Mark says...well...they weren't saved in the first place. So than his definition of being saved does not include those people who ask Christ into their lives and later fall away. He says once saved always saved, but only for those who God knows will not fall away in the future. How than, can I say that I am saved using this definition? I would have to believe that every Christian who has fallen away from Christ was lying the entire time. If even one of these Christians asked Christ for His free gift of salvation and really believed that he or she was saved, but later fell away, than I cannot be sure that I am saved because I cannot know if I am currently one of these Christians that I have described above. I guess I don't agree with him. That's too bad. Please tell me where my logic fails if you disagree with me. God Bless, -Adrian (vlad) | ||
| 4drian Registered user Username: 4drian Post Number: 8 Registered: 11-2004 |
Just one more thing, All of the bible verses, that suposedly prove the "once saved always saved" doctrine, actually prove only one thing: that as long as we are in Christ, we are saved. To see what happens to believers who are no longer in Christ we have to go to verses such as the one I posted above. There Paul clearly tells us that if we no longer "continue in his kindness," then we will be "cut off." To claim that Paul was talking about some sort of imposter Christians and that they were never really true Christians is disingenuous and an outright misinterpretation of that chapter. I'm sorry Pastor Mark but that's the truth. God Bless, -Adrian (vlad) | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 227 Registered: 4-2000 |
Krista, The Bible nowhere supports the idea that we can become UNREBORN or UNADOPTED. As long as I have an ongoing role in the salvation process, my natural tendency will be to focus on my behavior rather than on Christ. People who are constantly examining their spiritual condition tend to fall in the trap of legalism. Thus, you can lose your salvation several times a day--the SDA dilemma. On the other hand, consider Jesus' parable of the prodigal son (Luke 15:11-32). Culturally speaking, what Jesus described in the parable was a worst case scenario. The boy could not have been more disrespectful. He could not have been any more insensitive. And he certainly could not have been a greater embarrassment to the family. No one would have blamed the father if he had refused to allow the boy to join up as one of his hired men. The son didn't deserve a second chance, and he knew it. He recognized how foolish it would be to return with the notion of being allowed back into the family. That was not even a consideration. In his mind, he had forfeited all rights to sonship. He was of the conviction that by abandoning his father and wasting his inheritance, he had relinquished his position in the family. His father, however, did not see things that way at all. In his mind, ONCE A SON, ALWAYS A SON. The father's first emotion as he saw the son returning wasn't anger. It wasn't even disappointment. He felt compassion for him. Why? Because the young man was his son! The father said: "This son of mine was dead and has come to life again" (Luke 15:24). He did not say, "This was my son, and now he is my son again." On the contrary, there is no hint that the RELATIONSHIP was ever broken, only the FELLOWSHIP. By "dead" Jesus meant "separated." That was clearly a figure of speech since the son did not physically die in the parable. What maintained the son's relationship with the father? He certainly wasn't acting like a son. He didn't manifest any signs of sonship. He didn't perform good works. Yet his relationship with the father never changed. Why? Because the father's love and acceptance of the son were not contingent on the son's works. The father's love was unconditonal. He loved the son because he was a son, because they were related. That was Jesus' point exactly. The shepherd didn't kick the wandering sheep out of the flock. The woman didn't just forget about her lost coin and turn her attention to ones she still possessed. And the prodigal's father didn't disown his rebellious son. God is not looking for people He can throw out of His family. He is looking for people who are willing to be included. And once they are included by faith, He continually looks after them through all their ups and downs. He is the Good Shepherd, the compassionate Father. He is love. If you have placed your trust in Christ's death on the cross as the payment for your sin, you are an eternal member of the family of God. Acting like God's child didn't get you in. Not acting like one won't get you tossed out. God's unconditional love is eternal. Salvation is forever. All whom he justifies he glorifies. None of the elect is ever lost. In His grip, Dennis J. Fischer | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 121 Registered: 10-2004 |
4drian, If you look at the context of those several chapters in Romans, Paul is talking about groups, Jew and Gentiles. He is not talking individually or personally! This is very evident from the context. If he was talking personally, then there couldn't have been any saved Jews at the time! But he is talking about Israel and the Gentiles as groups, not as individuals! I do not believe that it's ok for us to sin! When our spirits are regenerated (born again), we become new creatures, the old things have passed away, all things have become new! We now want to serve Jesus and follow Him and do what pleases Him out of gratitude for eternally saving us. Frankly, I don't see how the desire to serve Jesus would be as strong if we didn't know whether or not we were going to burn in hell. If you can lose your salvation, then you really can't know what's going to happen 30 years from now. You may be lost and go to hell. Having assurance now does not help me in the least. Why would I care about having assurance now, if I still might end up in hell???!! Back to wanting to serve Jesus. This does not mean that we cannot backslide, as Dennis pointed out. But what Pastor Mark says is that if you're living a life of sin, enjoying it, and getting away with it, then you probably were never saved. This is not Mark Martin making this up. This is straight from Hebrews 12! It says that if you are not being disciplined by the Lord, then you are not a son! And Jesus says in John 8:35 that a son is a son forever! "Now a slave has no permanent place in the family, but a son belongs to it forever." (John 8:35 NIV.) So if you are a son, the above scenario, which Pastor Mark talks about, will never happen to you. And Pastor Mark firmly teaches that we can know if we are saved as 1 John 5:13 says, and as Romans says the Spirit bears witness with our spirits that we are children of God. I think you definitely misunderstood Mark Martin's belief, and mine. I have not seen a single Bible verse which says that you can lose your salvation. Please give me one! God bless, Jeremy | ||
| Vchowdhury1 Registered user Username: Vchowdhury1 Post Number: 82 Registered: 7-2004 |
So, once saved, always saved right? So you're saying that if I gave my life to Christ and know that I am saved, and suddenly develop a mid-life crisis and I decide to leave my husband and family and live with another man in sin, and I suddenly have a sudden heart attack and die without asking to Lord to forgive me, what you're saying is that I'm still saved? Mmmmmm. | ||
| Vchowdhury1 Registered user Username: Vchowdhury1 Post Number: 83 Registered: 7-2004 |
And, what about Lucifer and his angels? They had permanent salvation, right? But now they're lost! If once saved, always saved, why did Lucifer loose his salvation? If the once saved, always saved theory of salvation is true, what we're saying is that the devil and his angels still have a chance for salvation. But for some reason, I don't think so. Just a thought. | ||
| 4drian Registered user Username: 4drian Post Number: 9 Registered: 11-2004 |
Ok guys, I have to bring this back to a verse that Doc gave above. "If we died with Him, we will also live with Him; if we endure, we will also reign with Him. If we disown Him, He will also disown us; if we are faithless, He will remain faithful. for He cannot disown Himself." (2 Tim 2: 7). What is Paul talking about here? Will God always be faithful to us? Yes. If we died with Him, will we also live with Him? Yes. Will we also reign with HIM? Yes, if we ENDURE. Are will always God's children whether on not we choose to receive his gift? Yes. But if we disown God what will happen? He will disown us. Look, I don't want to sound like an Adventist because trust me, when I argue this issue with my SDA friends, I end up on the other side of it. They can't say that they are saved and they are afraid that every sin they commit has to be repented of or they won't go to heaven. Some of them say that God will understand if an accident happens and they didn't have a chance to repent of a sin, but that's the only time God will forgive them without them first asking for forgiveness. But if you really believe in Once Saved Always Saved, please read the verses that Doc and I posted and explain them to us. Now I know you're tired of my talking philosophy but here's the issue from yet another perspective: I would like to ask you to think about why the plan of salvation was (and is) necessary (Think about it for a minute, than read on.) First of all, I believe God is all-powerful. He did not need to die for us simply to save us. If HE just wanted to save us, what stopped Him doing so without sending His son to die for us? This of course takes us back to Adam. Adam sinned because he wanted to be like God. He essentially disowned God. Now after Adam sinned, why did God not immediately forgive him? Did God not have the power to do so? I say God has the power to do anything He wants. But if God had immediately reinstated Adam into His grace, He would have negated Adamís choice. So there has to be a reason for the plan of salvation. It is my opinion that the plan of salvation was put in place to save us while preserving our freedom. Yes, we are free to choose Christ or not choose Him. We all agree on that. But some think that once we choose Christ, he will then take away our freedom so that what happened with Adam cannot happen again. I disagree. What would be the point of God seeing His children in this miserable condition, and what would be the point of Christ dying on the cross, if as soon as we accept Him, he will take our freedom away. God is a God of love. If he was going to change his mind and REMAKE man without freedom, than He would have certainly done so from the beginning. God Bless, -Adrian | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 980 Registered: 12-2003 |
I still say the parable in Matthew 13 helps me understand this dilemma better than any other. There were four categories of seeds: those that the birds ate and never sprouted; those that sprouted and grew lush plants but NO ROOTS; those that grew plants that fought with the weeds for nourishment and eventually died because the weeds were stronger; those that rooted, grew, and produced a harvest. It's clear that not everybody receives the gospel the same way. Some people never give it a serious thought. They have no hope of the new birth. Some people seize it eagerly, but they don't commit themselves to it. They do not SURRENDER their hearts to Jesus. Their apparent Christian life dies when they are confrontd by difficulty. They have no roots in Christ. Others hear the gospel, recieve it half-heartedly, giving it a place in their hearts next to their other passions: wealth, power, success--but they do not surrender their passions to the Lord of the gospel. They attempt to nourish the gospel seed while also nourishing their wordly seeds. The gospel seed will die in them; it only grows to maturity if the person surrenders his heart--all his passions--to JEsus. Finally, the gospel seed grows and flourishes in hearts where it is not competeing for nourishment with all the other loves that person may have. In short, we cannot always personally know whether or not a person we are observing is truly saved or not. The reason, I believe, that Paul wrote so many warnings to the early Christians about not falling away, about being faithful and obedient, about living lives worthy of the gospel, is that he understood that not everyone who professed Christ had really surrendered his heart fully to Him. Those seeds that fall on rocky ground and didn't put down roots--they obviously represent people who did respond to the gospel message and did want what it promised. But they never surrendered their hearts fully to it. They might, however, have been able to make the decision to deepen their study of God's word and pursue knowing and obeying Jesus if they had received input and requests for accountability. They superficially accepted the gospel. They mentally assented to it, but they were unwilling to surrender THEMSELVES to it. They might be described as people who lacked integrity. They professed and even presented evidence of belief, but their hearts were not committed. Similarly, the seeds that fell among weeds represent people who are attracted to the gospel but try to include it as just one of the passions of their lives. They do not give it preeminence. They are not willing to sacrifice the other things that command their loyalty and emotion and commitment for the sake of Jesus. They try to manage Jesus AND the other things they also love. They might be described as having divided hearts. They are those about whom Jesus said, "A house divided against itself cannot stand." I you are saved, however, if you have surrendered your life to Jesus and are asking Him to do in you what He knows needs to be done, then you KNOW you are saved. The Holy Spirit makes that clear to you. And, as Dennis and Jeremy pointed out, being saved does not mean that you won't sin. It means, though, that God will not let you go on in your sin without disciplining you and drawing you back to Himself. Those healthy, well-rooted plants in the parable were not spared heat and storm. They were secure, however, because they were rooted in the nourishing soil of God's word and the reality of Jesus. They undoubtedly suffered and maybe even felt as if they would be uprooted and shrivelled in severe winds and scorching heat. But they were committeed to standing in that soil. They drank deeply, and their roots held during assaults. Those seeds on rocky ground and in the weed patch might well have survived after all if the hearts that received them had been committed to Jesus. But we cannot be half-hearted or resistant to surrendering to truth. We cannot hope to completely understand how these things work. But we can know that God's promises that nothing can separate us from His love, that nothing can pluck us out of His hand, that we have passed from death to life, that we are reborn as children of God--those promises are eternal. God's word cannot fail. We can also know that God will continue to call us to integrity and obedience to Him. If we are his true children, born from above, we will stand and grow even in overwhelming opposition. If we are not fully committed to Him, we will fall away when we're confronted with the decision to put down roots in Him and give up all our passions to Him. The human heart is not a mathematical equation, nor can it be explained by philosophy. The spiritual reality of our position in Christ is not something we can explain logically. It is spiritually understood. Likewise the spiritual reality of a divided heart is not something we can explain philosophically or logically, either. It is only with spiritual discernment that we can begin to make sense of these otherwise opposing ideas. God is sovereign, and only He knows our hearts. If you have surrendered yourself to Jesus, though, you can be confident that you cannot fall from His hands. By the way, 4drian, I'm not at all sure that our understanding of the "plan of salvation" as we have typically analyzed it from our Adventist backgrounds really encompasses the reality of what has happened. I'm coming to believe that the "plan of salvation" wasn't primarily about us poor mortals who sinned. Sin preceeded humanity--that snake was in the garden, possessed by an already-present devil. Sin was not only about humanity--it is about ALL creation. (Romans 8:20-22) I can't explain it all, but I believe that the "plan of salvation" (why do I hate that prhase so much?!) was about God glorifying Himself rather than about a rescue operation for a benighted race of unfortunate humans. Somehow we figure into a reality much bigger than we are, and the main point is not saving us from sin. Rather, it's about glorfiying the sovereignty and worthiness of God. All of reality--all of creation, even that which we can't perceive because we're stuck in three dimensions--is involved in this drama which God is engaged in. Our free will or misery or redemption are secondary concerns. Somehow in all that we endure, all that we experience as we surrender to the sovereign God--all these things will glorify Him. We are being brought to a place where we can join the angels and the elders and the living creatures around the throne in singing, Worthy, worthy is the Lamb! He alone is worthy! It's just not about us! Praise God that He is the story, but He gives us a role in it. Colleen | ||
| Pw Registered user Username: Pw Post Number: 188 Registered: 6-2004 |
I always go by the parable of the seed sower. It really depends how well the seed has taken root in someone's heart as to whether or not they really accepted Jesus and taken up their cross to follow him. Just believing in him isn't enough, you need to make a commitment. Of course we all fail every day in every way, but it's not our efforts that cause us to earn our way into heaven (like the SDA's think) but our faith. I'm sure some have turned their back on the faith and lost their salvation, but what their motives were when they chose to follow Jesus and then gone back to the world is really between them and God. |
