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| 4drian Registered user Username: 4drian Post Number: 1 Registered: 11-2004 |
Hi I'm a new member and this is my first post. First, here's a little background info on me: I was born into the SDA church in Romania. In those days it was very difficult to be a Christian, and especially an SDA ëchristianí in Romania. The communist government was constantly spying on us and they actually tortured my father. It saddens me to think how hard my family struggled to keep the Sabbath thinking it was Godís will for us. I moved to the US in 1990, at the age of 10, just after the revolution and overthrow of the communist government. Once we arrived in the states, my parents enrolled me in an Adventist school and I went exclusively to Adventist schools all the way through college. However, from a very early age I have either disagreed or felt uncomfortable with many SDA teachings. Unfortunately, being a pastor's son, made it harder for me to explore the teachings I disagreed with. My father died in 1992 but a few years later, my mom remarried another very faithful SDA. For many years, I have been attending church with a bible in my hand. I use the bible as a shield. I read the bible during the sermon and underline passages that inspire me. Often, these passages disagree completely with what the speaker is preaching from the pulpit. Currently, my church is having a revelation seminar. I have not attended and have not invited anyone. This made me realize that I have to get out of the SDA church because I cannot bring other people to Christ if I am afraid to take them to church due to false teachings. Two weeks ago, I stopped attending the SDA church and have attended my local Calvary chapel for the last 3 weeks. Unfortunately, my wife is a fairly conservative Adventist and is not happy with this turn of events. She always knew that I didn't agree with a lot of Adventist doctrines but I guess she didn't care too much so long as I went to church with her. I am trying to get her to read ellenwhite.org, CARM, FAF, and many others. I have given her all the links but she says she is too busy. Yesterday, I was listening to one of Mark Martin's sermons from sdaoutreach.org when she walked in. She listened for a while but then she had to leave for the revelation seminar (it's going to be over this week, thank god). I will keep working on her and continue to ask for God's help in the matter. Now the reason I wrote is... As I told you above, I have been attending the Calvary Chapel of Albuquerque for the last three weeks. I have also listened to several sermons by Mark Martin, former Adventist and head pastor of Calvary Chapel of Phoenix. I really enjoyed the style of worship, the praise music, and the fact that all of the sermons were scripturaly grounded. I know that I have been truly blessed and that I have allowed Christ into my life like never before. However, last Saturday my wife went to the SDA church by herself and when she came home, she brought some friends from church. We had about a four-hour discussion/argument about the old vs. new covenants, the 10 commandments, food laws, etc. During that discussion, I started talking about Calvary and one of my SDA 'friends' countered by saying, "You know, Calvary people don't follow the bible at all -- they believe in the rapture." Now as an Adventist I have been told my whole life that the rapture teaching is from the devil so I didn't know what to say. After they left, I started studying the rapture. I tried to approach it with an open mind knowing that just about everything else the SDA church taught me was wrong. I now know a lot more about the rapture and have about 10 extra bookmarks in my browser. No matter what rapturists say, the belief simply cannot be reconciled with the bible. There is only one second coming. The rapture teaching seems to be based more or less a fictional belief created by people who have grown accustomed to their comfortable lifestyles and don't want to believe that there will be a tribulation. This belief is even more silly when we wake up and realize that Christians are being tortured, persecuted, and killed every day in many parts of the world; and that they have been since apostolic times. I wonder what the Christians in Iraq would say if we tried to preach the pre-trib rapture to them? Anyway, I went to the home pages of many Calvary chapels and found that some directly reference the pre-trib rapture in their statement of beliefs, while others do not. The Albuquerque Calvary Chapel does not put the rapture in their statement of beliefs but the former pastor Skip Heitzig (moved on last January), was a big proponent of it. Iím not completely sure of what the current pastor, Pete Nelson, believes in regard to the raptureÖbut I have a bad feeling about it. I really thought I had found a church that was completely bible based and now I'm a bit disappointed to find out that it isn't. I started thinking about other options and talked to one of my co-workers about his Presbyterian church. Everything sounded good until we started talking about the new covenant. It seems he, and his church, is a strong believer in the new covenant plus 9 commandments doctrine. I am certainly not going to fall into that trap again. So I guess I'm asking for some advice. I don't know what percentage of my church believes in the rapture or even if the new head pastor does. Should I just disregard this issue and be happy that most of what they preach agrees with the bible, should I try to meet with one of the pastors and discuss this issue, or should I look for a new church. I really really like Calvary and don't want to find any other church so please let me know what you think. I know many of you have gone through these same dilemmas. God bless you all and keep you strong in the faith and the promise of his word! -Adrian | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 974 Registered: 12-2003 |
Adrian, welcome! We're really glad you're here! The issue of the pre-tribulation rapture is one about which Christians do not all agree. It is not a central issue of faith: the central issues are the finished work of Christ, salvation by grace through faith in Jesus, the Trinity, the Bible as the only rule of faith and practice, God's judgment of evil, and the return of Jesus. The Bible is not clear about exactly how Jesus' return will be timed in the events of the end of time. There are passages in Revelation that suggest God's people will be with Him before the new heaven and the new earth are formed. Because the Bible is not specific, this issue is not a dividing issue in the body of Christ. Some Christians are pre-tribulationists, some mid-trib, and some post-trib. As Dale Ratzlaff says, "Where the Bible is clear, we must be certain. Where is it unclear, we must be tentative." The fact that people disagree over issues such as the timing of the rapture (which, BTW, means "caught up"--all Christians do believe in the rapture! They just don't agree when it will happen!) should not mean you cannot worship with them or that they do not follow the Bible. Adventism taught us that we must all agree and KNOW THE TRUTH about every point of doctrine. The fact is, the Bible doesn't make all these points clear. If the church where you're woshiping teaches from the Bible, if it has Spirit-filled worship, if there is Bible study and fellowship among the members, you are probably worshiping in a healthy church. Don't expect to see eye-to-eye with everyone in your church. There is much room for variance in the issues that are not central to salvation. They should not divide the body or become focal points that detract from our central worship of and growth in Jesus. In short, the pre-trib rapture is only one possible understanding of an unclear sequence. It should not be a deciding factor in whether or not you worship at a church! Welcome to the body of Christ! Colleen | ||
| Carol_2 Registered user Username: Carol_2 Post Number: 193 Registered: 2-2002 |
Hi Adrian! Welcome!!!! Thanks for sharing your story. I look forward to hearing more in the days ahead! My suggestion is that you stay put for the time being, meet with your pastor to discuss your concerns, and continue to pray for guidance. God is faithful, and He will lead you to the right church, which may be where you're at now. Again, a very warm welcome - you will find many friends here. | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 117 Registered: 10-2004 |
Adrian, I agree with Colleen. I have not studied the rapture issue in-depth, but I don't think that the timing of end-time events is that important of an issue. SDAs teach that a correct understanding of end-time events is necessary for salvation, so of course they would think that it is a huge issue and that anyone who teaches the pre-trib rapture is a heretic. But if that's the only problem you have with your church, I would say you're very fortunate!!!  Jeremy | ||
| Dane Registered user Username: Dane Post Number: 70 Registered: 4-2004 |
Welcome Adrian, I concur with what Colleen said. The Bible is not clear on the issue. I personally hold a type of post-trib view, but I don't think it's worth losing sleep over. My wife and I left SDA in 1982 over theological issues and it was not long before we discovered that there is probably no church where we would completely agree on every idea. But that is OK. As long as the Bible is taught and the Spirit is leading then it is a good church. Dane | ||
| Esther Registered user Username: Esther Post Number: 84 Registered: 5-2004 |
Welcome to the forum Adrian! Praise God for touching your heart and soul and calling you out to follow Him! I related to you well, as I read your story. We seem about the same age judging from the dates you posted, and I too am a pastors kid. My parents and grand and great grand parents were also SDA missionaries, so I understand well the persecution that SDA's endure around the world. Somehow, I feel that even with their misunderstandings, God will be glorified in their suffering in the end...and will deal justly with them! In your questions on finding a new church home... when beginning this exodus myself, I felt compelled to find the perfect church right away. I now think that it doesn't exist. My own personal opinion is that all who follow Christ are members of His church...that many of us fall on different sides of different issues, and somehow can't seem to see each others perspectives. And I agree with Colleen that on major issues...we should be one, and then avoid disputes on areas where we don't see eye to eye. Not that we shouldn't still learn from each other...and continue to study and grow. But if this rapture thing is a big issue to you, then find a church that agrees with you understanding of scripture. If you can resolve to disagree and still keep your present company, all's well. My husband and I(who btw is also a pastors kid) have found that we prefer a kind of home church...we study with friends who are also processing out. But we visit an Evangelical Free church periodically. The pastor there has been good to us...and though I'm still unsure about my thoughts on the rapture...they don't push it, and the two pastors even differ in their view of events. That is so different to me (good) that things don't have to be hammered out in stone. Anyway, just keep trusting the Lord to lead you where He wants you. Glad you joined our group...and I think you'll find it a good place to share questions, concerns, prayers, and praise. Blessings! | ||
| 4drian Registered user Username: 4drian Post Number: 3 Registered: 11-2004 |
Hi everyone, Thank you so much for all of your responses. I will take your advice and continue attending Calvary Chapel (I didn't want to find another church anyway). This church is truly filled with the Holy Spirit. All their sermons, that I've heard so far, are grounded in the bible and I can't help but feel blessed when I leave a service. Now as far as the rapture I believe that it's really clear that although the bible describes the second coming in slightly different ways throughout the New Testament, it is the same event that all the descriptions point towards. It can certainly be said that there isn't a single verse in the entire bible that states, or even alludes, that there will be two separate "2nd" comings. I understand that this is not a salvational issue and I don't have any problem fellowshipping with people that believe in pre-trib rapture. My main concern, is that this belief was created by Christians who have grown complacent in their comfortable lives and do not want to realize that throughout most of history Christians have been persecuted for being true followers of Christ. In fact Christ told us that we will be tortured and killed for following him and so many people have been and they continue to be; even to this day. I guess what I'm saying is that the teaching of the pre-trib rapture gives people the idea that they will never have to endure persecution and tribulation because of their beliefs; and this is simply not biblical. Now I'm still fairly new to all of this and I may be completely off base in my reasoning. Please let me know if I'm wrong. P.S. Just to make sure you all understand. I no longer consider myself an Adventist and I do not believe in all the crazy Adventist theories about the end of times; so that's not where I'm coming from with all of this. God bless, -Adrian | ||
| Pw Registered user Username: Pw Post Number: 186 Registered: 6-2004 |
4drian. I also attend Calvary Chapel (in Ft. Lauderdale). I wouldn't get too hung up over the rapture theology. Many different churches have their own ideas about what actually takes place in this event. But in reality, I don't get too wrapped up in it, because when it happens it will be awesome. In the meantime, I think a growing relationship with Christ is the main focus of Calvary, otherwise you'll find yourself being consumed with issues that will pull you into legalism. Try logging onto calvaryftl.org and attach your question to Pastor Bob Coy. He's very annointed and will get a reply back to you. | ||
| 4drian Registered user Username: 4drian Post Number: 5 Registered: 11-2004 |
I agree. I definitely feel the Holy Spirit working in this church and I believe God guided me to this church in the first place. It is so different from my local SDA church where at least once a month (I'm not kidding) they have a sermon on tithe and tell all the members that aren't paying tithe that they are going to hell (again, I'm not kidding). I can't wait to go to Church again next Sunday. They also have a great program for the younger generation on Sunday nights that I really like attending as well. I remember when I was at La Sierra University and at Andrews University and I couldn't stand going to the Friday night programs. But for some reason, for the last three weeks, since I've started attending Calvary, I can't wait for the next one. If I get any good answers from the pastors I plan on talking to, I'll post them here. God Bless, Adrian (vlad) | ||
| Sabra Registered user Username: Sabra Post Number: 265 Registered: 10-2001 |
Adrian, I love the Calvary Chapels, I listen to them everyday on the radio, we don't have one around here but I'd say they are preaching right out of the bible and I really enjoy hearing them daily. As far as the rapture goes.......it is one of those doctrines that everyone has an opinion on and no one really cares what the next one believes (except for the SDAs) they don't ask you at the door of other churches what you believe,other than the birth, death and resurrection of Jesus, they just want you there! I'm the kinda person that just has to know! I really prayed about this doctrine and I feel God gave me the answer. If you just ask, He will show you truth! It isn't a salvific issue and I'm not sure why Adventists are so dogmatic about it, seems weird to me, I mean, if people believe in a rapture at any moment, wont they be ready all of the time? The SDA way of things is looking for signs and then having time to straighten up. Which sounds right? So glad you're here! Welcome! Sabra | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 1125 Registered: 11-2002 |
Adrian, It's nice hearing from you. I was gone for only two days and noticed there sure has been a lot of activity of this forum. I attend te Lutheran. So far I have only come actoss one doctrinal difference between meand theÝLutheran. I guess if I wanted to attend a church that I agreed with 100% it would have to be called The Church of Susan. Ha! Ha! That was supposed to be funny. Anyway, welcome | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 759 Registered: 3-2004 |
Welcome Adrian,, You are in a good place when you are here. As some people have said, the rapture is not a salvation issue, so, I prefer to say, it is not what I know, it is WHO I know. And the one I am learning to know is Jesus Christ. He is the important one to have a relationship with. Then what ever else you want to know, He will have his Helper, the Holy Spirit, teach you, if you ask. If it is a salvation issue it is of prime importance. If it is not, it is an interesting fact to know and discuss. Welcome again. I look forward to hearing more from you. I have put you and your wife on my prayer list and will be praying for you. As God teaches you you will discover, as all of us have that Jesus is awesome. Diana | ||
| 4drian Registered user Username: 4drian Post Number: 6 Registered: 11-2004 |
I've said it before and I want to say it again. Thank you everyone for your answers. I am truly happy to be part of this forum. It is very nice to be able to talk theology with people and not feel judged. I have not experienced this very often before. Keep the posts coming if you want. I wanted to let you know how thankful I am. God Bless, -Adrian (vlad) | ||
| Dane Registered user Username: Dane Post Number: 71 Registered: 4-2004 |
Adrian, I too feel some concern with an overemphasis some congregations place on a pre-trib rapture. I've often thought that could lull some into complacency. Dane | ||
| Dd Registered user Username: Dd Post Number: 220 Registered: 7-2004 |
Adrian, I know you didn't ask...but...I am praying for you and your wife that God will lead in your marriage and that she will be lead to read the Word of God for herself and listen to the whisperings of the Holy Spirit. Many of us have spouses that do not believe in the New Covenant or are currently just beginning to understand. It is hard on a marriage. I am praying that God's comfort and peace will be felt by you as you face the struggles ahead. Welcome - I am so glad you are here with us! | ||
| Lydell Registered user Username: Lydell Post Number: 649 Registered: 7-2000 |
Adrian, glad to hear you have found a safe fellowship. It will be a huge blessing to you. From my own observation, one of the things we all have to learn after leaving the SDA's is to actually work at avoiding paying undue attention to the endtime stuff. I say we have to work at it, because the SDA's put such a ridiculous amount of focus on their supposed understanding of endtime events that they let everything in the scriptures be interpreted by that. That stuff is programed into us now. We have to be aware that the tendency is there and check ourselves to make sure that we don't keep carrying that. We have this thing built into us that if others don't agree with us on endtime events, then we have nothing to learn from them. Not saying you are there....I'm just making a general observation about this thing we all have to learn. And yes, there are other Christians who focus too much on the mystery of the prophecies (and they ARE a mystery right now. The Lord doesn't WANT us to understand all of that yet. I heard a good comment about this: Focus on endtime prophecies can lead to one of two attitudes...the first is to not care a flip about what happens in our world because, "hey, we're checking out of here, it's not our problem". Or the opposite, "hey, we have got to MAKE this world here totally transformed before Christ can come back, it's all our responsibility".) Keep a balanced view yourself and you'll recognize the ones who are getting a bit kooky. And maybe you will be able to speak a voice of reason to them to get them doing some thinking too. | ||
| Pw Registered user Username: Pw Post Number: 187 Registered: 6-2004 |
Adrian, I'm glad you will stay with Calvary. It's been a great growing experience for me. I feel like the pastors are very down to earth because they are relatable by how they teach topics from their own personal experiences and backgrounds. Unlike trying to live up to EGW's standards which is foolishness anyway. | ||
| Tealeaves Registered user Username: Tealeaves Post Number: 189 Registered: 5-2004 |
4drian, I am going to chime in, although my thoughts are similar to others here, and say that the Rapture isn't a core belief, and wouldn't be a deal-breaker for me as far as choice of churches. Unlike in the SDA church, differences of opinion on theological points besides the Gospel don't usually "get in the way" of fellowship and spiritual growth in most Protestant churches. I would encourage you to just go where the Holy Spirit leads you, and feel free to discuss your theological differences with the people there if you want to. Most people are pretty oepn to it, they still feel united with you as a brother in Christ because they trust Christ alone, not their own theological "rightness" for their salvation. If we had to be 100% theologically right in our own minds to go to Heaven, I think there might be only about 19 people rattling around up there, and only if they died at the exact moment in their lives that they "got it right" for a moment. I probably have more chance of winning the lottery than I do of being 100% right theologically. (And I don't even buy lottery tickets.) Trust God, He KNOWS what we do not. and He understands what do not, and do not have to, understand. This is a concept I try unsuccessfully to get across to SDAs all the time: that we don't have to be "right" in our theology, we just have to TRUST JESUS. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 979 Registered: 12-2003 |
Tealeaves, thanks for a good laugh! I loved your comment that if we all had to agree theologically, there'd probably only be 19 people rattling around in heaven--and then only if they had the good fortune to die at the same time! Jesus is our great rallying point and object of loyalty. When we are in Him, our differences do not (or should not) divide us. There's just nothing to match the fellowship of the Spirit when we are part of the body of Christ! Praise Jesus for making us one! Colleen | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 585 Registered: 7-2003 |
Hi, Adrian. I am a little slow to posting to this line, so I apologize if this has become old news. I was raised pretty much with the idea of a rapture, so I take exception to some of your statements above. We were NEVER taught there is a second chance at salvation, and I have equally NEVER seen a complacency in spiritual growth because of the teaching. They also do not think Christians do not now suffer. I'm not sure who you've read or where your information is from, but those points are very wrong from any pre-trib rapturist I've ever encountered. I am not sure that I follow all of the pre-trib rapturists teachings any more, but I know that those who I have heard teach the subject believe with all their heart it is scripture leading them to that conclusion. They point to the difference in two greek words. The "harpazo" and the "parousia". Those words are translated the same usually in English, though they have different meanings in Greek. But let me tell you what I've studied about the term rapture itself. (And as everyone else has said this is not a salvation issue. But perhaps it will give you some insight into the other perspective.) "Rapio" is not a greek term, it is a latin term. It means "to seize and carry off, snatch, tear, pluck, drag, hurry away". it is used in the latin vulgate. 1 Thess 4:17 uses this word (rapiemur). 2 Corin 12:4 also uses this word (raptus). Acts 8 also uses the word (rapult). As Colleen said, the word simply means being caught away. The passage in Acts 8 is talking about Phillip being caught away and not seen, 2 Corinthians is a passage where Paul is talking about a man "caught up" to the 3rd heaven...in the body or out, he did not know. So, you can see that when you take the usage in those two passages and then read in 1 Thess 4:17 that we will be "caught up" to the clouds...if we're looking for a consistent use of that term, it doesn't seem so "unBiblical". Philip was physically removed from the location, and paul was unsure about his friend. But 1 Thess says we will meet in the clouds. Seems pretty physically removed to me. The coming of the Lord as in 1 Thess 4:15 is parousia in Greek and not the same word in 1 Thess 4:17, which uses harpazo...which has the latin root of rapio. You see, there is confusion, at least to me, how we meet him in the clouds at the catching away (rapture) and are planted firmly on the earth at his second coming. Perhaps it is clear as day and black and white to others, but I at least question the possibility that those two things can't happen at the same time. I have listened to the SDA in my life say I don't care about the bible and what it says, I don't study it for myself, etc. for 5 years...so I get a little passionate when this particular term is the basis by which my Christian experience seems judged. Nothing is further from the truth. But when trying to fit the pieces of 1 Thess with Rev with Daniel and other apocalyptic books, many good, God-fearing, Spirit lead people can come to different conclusions. I would offer we are all wrong on some point. Our real job is not to get the decoder ring, but to be ready at all points in our lives. I hope this helps you understand a bit of how the term "rapture" came into being and where its roots really are. It does not seem correct, given this information, to say the term or concept is not Biblical. Welcome to the forum, and hope you can make peace with those who believe in this concept as true believers. It should not be an issue for fellowship. |
