| Author | Message | ||
| 4drian Registered user Username: 4drian Post Number: 10 Registered: 11-2004 |
Melissa, Sorry if I offended you. I asked to be corrected and I guess you did just that. I did not intend to imply that people who believe in pre-trib rapture are not real Christians. On the contrary, my statement above came more from a fear that real God-loving Christians will not be mentally prepared for tribulation if and when it does come. Most of us American Christians don't have a clue what real tribulation is. That does not mean that we are not real Christians; of course we are. In fact we need to thank God that we are living in such a wonderful country where we are free to worship Him without persecution. We have it relatively easy right now, and my point is that we should not assume that it will always be so easy to stand up for God. That's not what a lot of other Christians are experiencing right now throughout the world and also not what I believe the bible teaches. Here is a link to Christian Freedom International; a very good charity. They have a lot of good information the persecution of Christians throughout the world. http://www.christianfreedom.org Now as far as 1 Thes 4 is concerned, I think we should all be able to agree on at least one fact. It is very clear that the event described in this chapter is NOT a SECRET rapture. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a SHOUT, with the VOICE of the archangel, and with the TRUMP of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. So Melissa, if you can seriously tell me that verse 16 refers to a secret rapture, than we can't agree on anything so we might as well stop right here. If, on the other hand you agree that the event described is a visual, audible experience, than I would love to discuss this issue with you at length. I'm not trying to stir up controversy, but wherever there are two or more points of view on the bible, I like to discuss them. In the end, I hope this will lead me closer to the truth. I think that thirst for truth is something that God put into all of us and we should be able to discuss these issues without splitting up into different groups. We are all one family in Christ. Dd, I am truly thankful for your prayers. You are right. This process is hard on my marriage. With Godís help, I hope we will come through it ok. If anyone else would like to remember my wife Rita and I in your prayers, I will be truly thankful. -Adrian (vlad) | ||
| Pw Registered user Username: Pw Post Number: 189 Registered: 6-2004 |
A., Is your wife still SDA? I was wondering what her opinion of Calvary Chapel is like. I'm sure it's a complete 360 degree as far as worship, teachings and fellowship. I hope it will draw her into a real relationship with Jesus. | ||
| 4drian Registered user Username: 4drian Post Number: 14 Registered: 11-2004 |
Pw, I have been contemplating this move for many years but I only stopped going to the SDA church for the last two weeks and have been attending Calvary for the last three. I managed to get my wife to go with me once so far. She likes the worship atmosphere and the praise music. She has been missing the youth services she used to attend at Andrews, which had praise music in them. The main reason she doesn't like it enough to go back is because it's on Sunday. She does, however, go with me to the Sunday night youth service. She is very deeply invested in the Adventist belief system, so it might take a long time to convince that another church could have a truth that the SDA church does not. Overall she is a really good person and I love her. However, she does tend to be a bit judgmental at times. The way she gets around my unbelief is by asking me what I would do if the EGW end time scenario starts playing out (i.e. The pope grows horns and starts persecuting Adventists for keeping Saturday). I always tell her that, were that scenario to play out, I would obviously reconsider my unbelief in the SDA church. That always seems to make her happy (but it doesn't make me happy).  btw... I'm 25 and she's 26. We've been married for about two and one half years. No kids and I'm not planning any until we work this out. Kids always seem to make people more emotional and that wouldn't be good. Pray for us. -Adrian (vlad) | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 124 Registered: 10-2004 |
This would not be very diplomatic  , but my response to that question would be, even if the Catholics started persecuting Adventists for keeping Saturday, EGW would still be a false prophet, because that would only be one fulfilled prophecy, and her many failed prophecies prove her to be a false prophet. Even if she was 99% right she would still be a false prophet. If there was a Sunday Law, who cares? I'm sticking with the Word of God. The Word of God does not teach that it's wrong to worship or rest on Sunday. The Word of God tells me that I would be sinning against God if I disobeyed the Sunday Law!
Jeremy | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 1127 Registered: 11-2002 |
What is Calvery Chapel? Is that a denomination? About The Rapture-some things just aren't interesting to me. As long as I end up in eternity with Jesus it just doesn't interest me if there will be a rapture or not. But, I do understand that different people find different topics of discussion interesting from what I find interesting. However, I just plain flat-out don't understand any of it. | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 125 Registered: 10-2004 |
Calvary Chapel is a non-denominational fellowship of churches started by Chuck Smith. Jeremy | ||
| 4drian Registered user Username: 4drian Post Number: 17 Registered: 11-2004 |
Jeremy, I agree with you. If she wasn't my wife, I would definitely say something along those lines. Now with my wife, I don't think that would work; it would just make her more defensive. I want to try my best to keep our theological discussions civil and to keep her from closing her mind to everything I say. I really hope that she will continue to attend the Calvary Sunday night youth service with me. She likes the other people there and we are even thinking of going with them on a skiing trip in January. With time, she might go with me on Sunday morning again. The one time she went with me, we took home information about Operation Christmas Child. [http://www.samaritanspurse.org/home.asp] That week she went to the local Wally World and filled two large shoe boxes with things for a boy and a girl. It was very nice of her but the following Sunday she would not go back with me to take the boxes to church. In fact she said that she was really tired and Sunday is the only day she has to rest. I found that really amusing and let her know it. She didn't appreciate my humor. I agree with your quote from Romans but Paul was obviously not talking about subjecting to the will those authorities if they are asking you to renounce your faith. In fact all but one of the apostles (John) are thought to have been martyred for their faith. Rita, as a proper SDA, sees the Saturday Sabbath as a salvational issue so to her not keeping the sabbath is the same as renouncing God. I know... I know... I doesn't have to make sense... just remember how you thought when you were an SDA. -Adrian (vlad) | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 107 Registered: 7-2004 |
Welcome, 4drian! I understand exactly where your wife is coming from, because I was there. I only hope and pray it doesn't take her the many years it took me! But I am very thankful that my husband stayed quiet and supportive 99.99% of the time and let me come to my on conclusions in my own time. He probably thought we'd be SDA's forever and he was most surprised when I finally saw the light. You can read our story on this website. It's called "Our Journey Out" by Rick and Sheryl Barker. I guess over the years I just started seeing more and more inconsistencies in SDA beliefs. The real sealer was when our kids got old enough to ask questions and see inconsistencies on their own. I finally realized I had to dig deep enough to come to a decision. Then I decided there was no way we could keep up the charade of "being in the truth" and convince our kids that was the case, only to have them eventually struggle with the same issues. Just thought I'd let you know that I recall very distintcly being shocked at the idea that any sincere SDA could change to thinking SDAism was false enough to leave it and yet remain a sincere Christian. Give your wife a chance to slowly absorb this. Our prayers are with you! | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 1130 Registered: 11-2002 |
That is a falacy proported by the SDA at great length, that if one leaves the SDA truth the person will leave Christianty and there will be no more righteousness in him. It kind of is instilling in the persons psyche that they'd better not risk leaving Adventism because then the person will take more and more risks until the person is a total loser in life. When I was around in the 5th grade we were told a story (over and over we were told this story) that if someone leaves the SDA church then the person might be a good person for a while. But, soon after because the person does not cling to the truth anymore he will start ever so innocently with having a beer now and then. Pretty soon he will be a full blown in the gutter alcoholic. While he is becoming an alcoholic he at the same time won't have the truth in him anymore and he will probably start reading his horoscope in the newspapers every morning. There will be a gradual progression into full blown occultism and sceanances and demon possession. While the person is becomming a demon possessed alcoholic he will ever so innocently start going to the movies. Oh, he'll start out with clean cut movies like The Sound of Music but before he realizes it satan has him going to the porno shops to satisfy his most vile lusts. While he is becomming a lust crazed demon possessed alcoholic he will start eating a piece of lean well cooked beef once in awhile. Soon he will be induldging in pork eating while watching pornos while he's guzzeling his vodka in a demon possessed state. Finily after satan has this poor fallen once-in-the-truth person securely in his clutches satan will arrange it somehow so the poor unsuspecting degenerate will get killed or die from all his bad habits. He then will be headed stright to the lake of fire for eternal anilalation. That is the progression as a child I was taught one would lead if he ever left the SDA truth. Do they still teach this trash to the kids? I know it's probably implied in a more subtle way now but when I was a kid the above it just how it was said to us. Oh, I forgot, also once the person got away from believing th SDA truth of the state f the dead the erson will be trying to contact their dead loved ones through channelling and this too will lead to being one in accord with satan. We were definately taught that to leave the SDA church is to leave God and thus to leave eternity with Jesus. Did you others get this trash? It kind-of seems to e that this must still be the prevailing understanding of SDA's beause otherwise why would so many of us on this forum be having the same issues and problems with our loved ones? That is what seems so cultic to me. Not so much the weird doctrines but rather the emotional hold, the control. | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 60 Registered: 7-2004 |
Dear Susan, You had me rolling on the floor, but there were tears, too, because it was exactly like the cautions we were given when I was younger. The saddest part is that I have known some out the back door SDA's who resorted to alcoholism and confusion, maybe because they were told that was to be their lot after leaving the fold of Adventism. I've known formers who got entangled in all of the things we were warned about--self fulfilling prophecies. We all know that it doesn't have to be that way. I am also happy to state that some of those people have now found the true Jesus, have also joined AA, and are worshipping in truth and in light. God be praised. I'm convinced that some of these people as young people accepted the Lord into their hearts, but because they belonged to such a confused denomination, they lost their direction. It happened to me. I never got involved in alcohol or the occult, but the confusion drove me to search elsewhere for clarity. Anyway, like the Prodigal, the Father has been keeping a watch out for all of us and is willing to throw the biggest party when we turn our eyes back into the proper direction. Remember to pray for all of the SDA's who are wandering around in confusion today at 1:00 PT. | ||
| 4drian Registered user Username: 4drian Post Number: 18 Registered: 11-2004 |
Susan, That is the funniest post I've read so far on this board. I couldn't stop laughing. I, of course, had the same experince but it was mutch more subtle. A suggestion here, a suggestion there, until subconsiciously I knew all non-adventists were going to hell. Thanks for the humor. I needed it. -Adrian (vlad) | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 1131 Registered: 11-2002 |
I honestly believe all of us "oldsters" on here who were raised SDA, no matter where we lived we have shared memories and similiar experiences. That's what strikes me as so bazaar. Where's the individualism? At the Lutheran church I attend we have kids who are totally involved in this sport or that sport or this club or that club (such as 4H, or Future Buisness Leaders of America, the dance troop or the gymnastics, cheerleading or the kids who are movie buffs or the ones who get together to skateboard or go surfing, etc.), even with the adults and the seniors the folks at the Lutheran church are encouraged to develope and maintain friends and interests outside their own denomination and congreation. Growing up SDA the SDA's are encourged to have ONLY SDA friends and associates and to even find employment with other SDA's. It's a total involvement being SDA. They have their own schools for the kids so of course the kids parents will socialize with the parents of their childrens friends, who also will be SDA even if they attend a different congreation. They have their own summer camps, unlike a lot of the Christian churches in my area that go in together on a summer camp for the kids. Then there is Pathfinders. The SDA's are very strongly discouraged from patronizing a local Christian bookstore and to rather get all their reading material and even the children's Sabbath School stuff at the ABC. Then of couse, the SDA's are expeced to purchase a lot of their food through the SDA distribution centers and then we get to the most awful of experiences of all-campmeeting where anyone who wants to really get his or her moneys worth will make it to every meeting startig at six o'clock in the morning and not getting back to the tent where you cannot get a decent nights sleep because the family on your left will have screaming baby twins and the old senior citizens on your rght will snore loud enough to wake the dead. But, you run around acting like the spiritual enlightenment at campmeeting is the closest on earth to what we will be getting once we enter into The New Jerseluem. That's what seems so cultic to me-not the cornball weird doctrines but rather the complete 100% involvment that the SDA church expects of its devotees. | ||
| 4drian Registered user Username: 4drian Post Number: 22 Registered: 11-2004 |
Ok back to the rapture... I told you guys that I would try to contact a few pastors and see what they have to say about it. Pastor Greg was the first to respond and he said I could share his response with you guys: ---------------------------- Hi Adrian, I too have struggled with some of these issues. i have spent time with Mark martin personally going over some of these things with him. he is a firm believer in the rapture and I see where it comes from scripturally. Luke 17, (one taken and the other left) I Thess 4:14 indicates that when Jesus comes he will be bringing back to earth those that have fallen asleep in Jesus, indicating that the ones that have died are already in heaven. This may or may not include those that were raptured. 1 Thess 5:9 Says God did not appoint us to wrath. Revelation 16 calls the last plagues the wrath of God. This could indicate that we are not going to be here to experience this. Then see also 1 Thess 1:10. Also look at Rev 3:7-12, the last day church that is pure and honored by God (as opposed to Laodicea). It says there in verse 10 that the lord will keep us from the hour of trial that will come on the whole earth. But the original greek means take us out of the hour of trial. Verse 8 says God has set before us an open door. In Revelation 4:1 we see an open door in heaven. there appear to be 24 elders (saints in heaven after that open door point). Just food for thought. I amn not sure where i stand on this issue yet. but i do see that the position can be biblically supported. For a Christian, it is not a salvation issue. For non-Christians, it is important to warn them that according to to 2 thess 2:9-10 those that are not raptured will not repent but will come under strong delusion to believe a lie. The SDAs teach against the rapture because they say it gives false security to people that they can repent after the rapture. But this is not the teaching of those that believe in the rapture at all. The Bible (if you see a rapture as biblical) does not teach a second chance for those that reject Christ now. It is only a chance for those that did not have a chance to receive him before. Adventist teaching that a universal Sunday Law before Christ comes is used by SDAs to wait till after that point to repent. I know, i thought that as a kid. I'd wit till then to repent. The same danger they see in the rapture applies to the Sunday Law teaching. As for a rapture or not, I see no danger in either believing or not believing in the rapture. I hope it is true personally, but i am not sure. Hope this is helpful. Calvary chapels are great churches from my observations. God bless... good to be in touch. In Christ, Greg Taylor One Flock Ministries 10730 Bratton Court Williamsport, MD 21795 ---------------------------- Guess I've got some more thinking to do on this subject.... and a lot more studying. If anyone else wants to help, with either side of this issue, please post away... God Bless, -Adrian (vlad) | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 62 Registered: 7-2004 |
Dear Adrian, Thank you for appealing to the pastors on the site for a clearer definition. I'm with everyone else in that I don't see having the correct idea of the rapture as being of salvational value. Whether or not we correctly interpret the biblical clues, if we have faith we will take the ride. All Christians who believe in the second coming of Christ believe in the rapture. The discussions are not about the "if" but about the "how." The most difinitive text supporting the second coming is I Thess. 13-18, and I love the way it reads from The Message (a paraphrased interpretation of the scriptures): "And regarding the question, friends, that has come up about what happens to those already dead and buried, we don't want you in the dark any longer. First off, you must not carry on over them like people who have nothing to look forward to, as if the grave were the last word. Since Jesus died and broke loose from the grave, God will most certainly bring back to life those who died in Jesus. "And then this: We can tell you with complete confidence--we have the Master's word on it--that when the Master comes again to get us, those of us who are still alive will not get a jump on the dead and leave them behind. In actual fact, they'll be ahead of us. The Master himself will give the command. Archangel thunder! God's trumpet blast! He'll come down from heaven and the dead in Christ will rise--they'll go first. Then the rest of us who are still alive at the time will be caught up with them into the clouds to meet the Master. Oh, we'll be walking on air! And then there will be one huge family reunion with the Master. So reassure one another with these words." This describes a pretty spectacular event, but to those who have no part in it it might just sound like a massive storm. Maybe only those participating will recognize the trumpet blast for what it is. Maybe only the sheep of his flock will recognize his voice. I love the clear definition in this translation about the state of the dead in Christ. When he comes, and at the trumpet blast, they will rise in their now glorified bodies, then the living, in their newly glorified bodies will rise to meet the Savior in the air. I've learned to tread water in my lifetime, but Paul describes treading air here, all without the aid of hang gliders and other forms of assisted air travel. I'm with Pastor Greg in that I hope this beautiful reunion takes place before the Tribulation sets in. I'm growing older now and the thought of having to outrun someone trying to take my life, well...I know that I would be run to the ground. I'd rather not have to face that test. However, if that is required of me I pray that I will have the strength of character shown by those who have already been tried to the point of death in Iraq and other places. Please forgive me for getting so wordy, but this is one of my favorite texts and the mental pictures I get while reading it are so triumphant that it makes me want to shout Hallelujia, and cry out, "Even so, come Lord Jesus." Belva | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 769 Registered: 3-2004 |
I think it is in Psalms where it says we will mount up as eagles in the air and if I am alive at that time, I am assured that God will take care of me. I am also very thankful this is not a salvation issue. Some one wrote on the forum and I am just repeating that person, it is not what one knows, buy who one knows and that one is Jesus. Oh, How I love him. He is awesome. Diana | ||
| Sabra Registered user Username: Sabra Post Number: 269 Registered: 10-2001 |
Jude 14 Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men also, saying, "Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints, 1 Thess 3:13 "...so that He may establish your hearts blameless in holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all His saints. Where did those saints come from if they weren't raptured to heaven? Pastor Martin is right, the devil would rather we look for signs of a Sunday Law so we can repent then, rather than be ready at any moment for the imminent, theif in the night rapture. | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 108 Registered: 7-2004 |
Sabra, I thought the texts you used above about the Lord coming with ten thousands of His saints and the coming of Jesus Christ with all His saints, is used to support the belief that our spirit immediately goes to heaven when we die. That wouldn't seem to support or not support a rapture either way. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 984 Registered: 12-2003 |
I know I'm a little late with my response, but Susan, your post above about the stages of apostacy after leaving Adventism made me laugh! Yep, I also internalized those same essential fears. No wonder most people who leave Adventism do not enter the Christian community. If there is only one church, after all, where is there to go if the true church doesn't "work" for you?! Colleen | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 87 Registered: 7-2004 |
If the true church doesn't work for you, the advice I was given by a friend/pastor was to "fake it until you make it." This well-meaning person was sure that going through the motions and pretending it was working would ingrain the habits until, at some point, it would work for me. | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 588 Registered: 7-2003 |
Hi, Adrian. I wasn't trying to support a "secret" rapture...never heard the term until I met an SDA, just trying to explain where the term "rapture" came from and it's Biblical basis. The point I got from your post was that it didn't exist in scripture. I do not believe that to be true, but you have to go through the latin version of the scriptures to get the term. But my confusion remains...do we meet in the clouds or do we see him coming with our feet firmly planted on the earth. It seems impossible to do both. As the examples I sited showed, at least Phillip was taken away quite "secretly" if that's the way you want to characterize it. He was simply gone. I'm not trying to argue, just trying to point out that sincere Bible seeking people can disagree, but that is no reason to not fellowship with someone. Just my opinion. I'm fortunate enough to go to a church where the specifics of end-time events are not debated. We work to do what God has for us here and now in the hopes of leading people to Christ, and if we do that, we've done all we can really do to impact their situation in eternity. I only hope for you to find unity in the body of Christ regardless of these differences. No offense was taken, and I certainly didn't mean to sound offensive. It's hard to add inflection and tone and intent to words on a page. |
