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Archive through December 02, 2004Jeremy20 12-02-04  5:16 pm
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Susan_2
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Username: Susan_2

Post Number: 1177
Registered: 11-2002
Posted on Thursday, December 02, 2004 - 8:31 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It is not possible to be SDA and not be influenced by EGW. Even though a person does not read from her books if that person reads the Review, the Sabbath school lesson books, or any other SDA publications that person will be influenced greatly by EGW even if he or she is unaware of it. I do need some advice though. My SDA kin keep telling me that the Lutheran church is named after Martin Luther. True, it is. So,they say corny things like then that makes Lutheranisn more of a cult than the SDA because at least the Adventist church isn't called Whiteism, etc. It's really whacked reasoning. They will ask me if the minister ever quotes or refers to Martin Luther in church. I say "yes". They ask me if the Lutheran books, magazines, etc. refer to Martin Luther. I say "yes". Then they tell me that's no different than EGW being referred to. But, it is! Martin Luther only wanted people to have a closer relationship with Jesus. They then tell me that proves EGW was more inspired because she also had the health message, the last days message, etc. What can I say? How should I respond? I will generally either close my eyes and fake sleeping or I make up an excuse to leave. Any advice?
Belvalew
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Username: Belvalew

Post Number: 66
Registered: 7-2004
Posted on Thursday, December 02, 2004 - 8:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dear Susan,
It may not help, but you could point out that Martin Luther never claimed to be a conduit for "truth" the way Ellen White did. Having all of those so called messages as a part of the SDA way of believing increases confusion. I'm sure you've known people whose whole grasp of faith had to do with diet. That means that they had made diet an idol, and they walked around all pasty-faced and claimed that their way of believing (eating) was better than any other. I've known SDA's whose whole focus was on dress to the point that it became an unwholesome obsession. Luther returned the minds of Christianity to Christ and the fact that he had paid the price for fallen humanity. You could point out that Ellen adds way too much to the simple facts of Jesus and salvation. All of those set behaviors, ways of dress, eating directives, and on and on. She burdened the truth in Christ with all of those distractions, and now people can go off on tangents and completely miss the Savior.
Ric_b
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Username: Ric_b

Post Number: 92
Registered: 7-2004
Posted on Friday, December 03, 2004 - 4:00 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Susan,
Lutheran's don't believe that Martin Luther's work are "authoritative" the SDA fundamental beliefs state the EGW's teaching are. THAT is a clear difference.

I would "agree" with them that the health message is another gospel. And Paul warns us clearly about other gospels in Galations.
Melissa
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Username: Melissa

Post Number: 610
Registered: 7-2003
Posted on Friday, December 03, 2004 - 7:28 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

And Martin Luther certainly recognized his own humanity. He grew in his walk and so did his writings. I heard he once said he wished he could burn all his early writings because of some of the errors. Did EGW EVER admit error? No, she blamed God and "angels", but it was never her fault. Huge differences between Luther and White.

and Susan you are right on. B says they hardly mention EGW in sermons at his church, but I ask him what he knows about the study time the pastor used to prepare the sermon. Did he reference EGW to get her spin on the passage before he ventured out, or was the Bible alone really all he used without concern about being in line with SDA teachings ... because he's always trying to tell me that's all they usually teach. I've asked him if anyone can be a pastor and openly disavow EGW and he remains silent. He recognizes things, but just can't say it, so it would seem.
Chris
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Username: Chris

Post Number: 473
Registered: 7-2003
Posted on Friday, December 03, 2004 - 8:48 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Melissa, part of the SDA effort to appear evangelical involves the facade of minimizing overt references to EGW. It doesn't change the fact that they are still referencing her and relying on her for their doctrine and information. It's just slipped-in in more subtle ways.

When I grew up it was very common to quote Ellen white extensively and overtly throughout sermons, however a few years ago a new phrase came into vogue. Many of the pastors still quote EGW during sermons, but they say, "As one writer put it". This phrase always means, "Ellen White said" and it is understood to be absolutely authoritative by those in the SDA culture, but to outsiders it will sound as if the pastor is simply throwing out a quote from some unnamed commentator. Evangelical Christians understand that commentators may have some useful thoughts on a subject, but they're not inspired or authoritative by any means so the quote doesn't hold near the weight for the outside listener that it does for the SDA.

This is essentially the ONLY way that EGW is quoted at the large College View SDA Church in Lincoln, but she *IS* quoted. If you listen to people like Doug Batchelor, Revelation seminar speakers, or "Net 'XX" speakers you'll here them use this phrase as well. Few people would suspect they are quoting suposed authoritative writings from an "end-time prophet".

Chris
Colleentinker
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Username: Colleentinker

Post Number: 1031
Registered: 12-2003
Posted on Friday, December 03, 2004 - 9:31 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

You're absolutely right, Chris. The spirit of deception keeps twisting reality to fit the current "need".

Colleen
Melissa
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Username: Melissa

Post Number: 614
Registered: 7-2003
Posted on Friday, December 03, 2004 - 10:53 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The only time I heard Bs pastor speak he said "We are told in Steps to Christ ... " but her name was never mentioned. I thought it was an interesting statement. When a commentator is mentioned in my church, they usually say "so and so says..." not "we are told..." "We are told" sounds authoritative from the gate. I found it very interesting. But I have come to the same conclusion you mentioned, Chris.

I was reading Dennis' comments last night from Thanksgiving weekend about the diminishing interesting in EGW and wondered if they're not also afraid of alienating some of their own who they've recruited in their seminars, yet may not be as open to EGW. Just speculating.
Chris
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Username: Chris

Post Number: 476
Registered: 7-2003
Posted on Friday, December 03, 2004 - 11:27 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yes, Melissa, "We are told" is another of the catch phrases that has gained popularity. It is often used by itself without citing an author or even book title, just "We are told that.....". This means, "God, speaking through Ellen White, has instructed us to believe such and such.....". In Adventism "We are told" is a very authoritative statement, roughly akin to the same force that saying something like, "We are told in the Bible that..." would have in evangelical Christianity.

Chris
Madelia
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Username: Madelia

Post Number: 110
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Friday, December 03, 2004 - 12:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I've also heard the pastor at our local SDA church say "The Christian writer, Ellen White..."
Ric_b
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Username: Ric_b

Post Number: 94
Registered: 7-2004
Posted on Friday, December 03, 2004 - 4:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

While I was an undergrad theology student at AU we had a weekend retreat with Roger Coon. This would have been in the winter/spring of either '84 or '85. His advice to us was that we should use EGW in our sermon prep, use her ideas in our sermons, but that we should general not directly quote her or mention that an idea was from her during the sermon. His rationale was that quoting her in the sermon could be taken wrong by some. I also recall him saying something along the lines of those who read her will already know where the idea came from, so you won't need to tell them.
Praisegod
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Username: Praisegod

Post Number: 164
Registered: 3-2004
Posted on Friday, December 03, 2004 - 4:27 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Or how about this one? "One of my favorite authors said...."
Freeatlast
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Username: Freeatlast

Post Number: 248
Registered: 5-2002
Posted on Friday, December 03, 2004 - 4:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"a prolific and well-known Christian writer"
Jeremy
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Username: Jeremy

Post Number: 156
Registered: 10-2004
Posted on Friday, December 03, 2004 - 5:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I believe EGW says somewhere not to quote her in sermons.

Jeremy

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