| Author | Message | ||
| Bb Registered user Username: Bb Post Number: 39 Registered: 7-2004 |
Well, today I had a talk with my daughter who attended SDA college last year and public college this year. She and I discussed EGW and the viewpoints of some of her SDA friends. She says that they basically think they "must" stay in the church because of the "Sabbath". These are friends who smoke pot, drink, have sex with their boyfriends, etc. Something my daughter, praise God, stayed away from. She only had one sweet friend out of about 10 (at that college) that was a non-party girl and a virgin. Now to compare at public college where these things are rampant, she has been able to find about 5 or 6 good friends who are virgins and who aren't into partying. Anyway, one of her SDA friends referred to her sarcastically as a "Sunday worshiper" now. I told my daughter that the only Adventists that I have any respect for anymore are the hardcore ones who are doing the best they can to be perfect! Because most of them wear jewelry, go to movies, eat meat, don't "keep" the Sabbath except to go to church in the morning. So they are fully going against what Ellen White and the church teaches, but clinging to the Sabbath somehow keeps them safe? It just doesn't make sense. This is a complete turn around for my thinking, as I used to just want the church to become more "normal mainstream" Christian because I saw so much more positive and spirit filled Christians out there in the "Sunday worshipers", and now praise God, I am one of them! However, occasionally I do think "oh, what if all of these people leaving the church is a fulfillment of what Ellen White said would happen". Then I remember that we are one of several strange and odd religions based on works to come out of that era. What do you all think about how Ellen White said "our schools will close down in the last days, but the church will go through to the end". Does any of that matter? I used to be terrified of being "deceived" into not being an SDA, so doubts creep in occasionally. I know I need to stay rooted in the Bible. With my kids and all the holidays I seem to put off my Bible study (which I love)and I have been putting off exercising (which I hate). But maybe not setting aside that time is my problem. | ||
| Sabra Registered user Username: Sabra Post Number: 279 Registered: 10-2001 |
Bb, Remember that the devil knows scripture well and he knew that "in the last days God would pour out His Spirit on all flesh." Of course there would be a mass exodus of false religions as God draws His own to Himself. It's not just the SDA church, look at what is going on in other false churches. Daily study is so essential for me. It keeps me grounded and putting it off will give place to the devil. Just keep your eyes on Jesus and He is the Truth, I promise! Blessings to you, Sabra | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 1006 Registered: 12-2003 |
Time in the Scriptures is our link with reality, for sure! But your doubts, Bb, make sense. Once in a while one of them still comes out of nowhere and jolts me. Here's how I understand Ellen's close-to-true but not-quite-true statements (such as the shaking time during which the non-true believers will be shaken out of the church. Perhaps there is a shaking--but it's the true believers in Jesus who are being shaken out, not the apostates!) I see it this way: her visions originated not from God but from the only other power in the universe: evil. Satan, who is not limited by time, knows what his ploys will be. He also knows that Jesus has already won the battle. His only weapon now is to deceive people into believing him instead of God. Consequently, he "inspired" Ellen with the shape of his intentions, but he deceived her and her followers into thinking he is the good power. I see it as somewhat like his telling Eve that she surely would not die if she ate the fruit. Sure enough--when she ate it, she was still standing there, breathing and moving. Yet she DID die--she died spiritually, a death which was very real. Her physical death came later. He deceived her into not realizing that reality was greater than the physical world she moved in. I believe Satan deceived Ellen into writing prophecies that may look reasonable and even seem to be partly true, but if a person sees them from a Biblical perspective, they look completely different than they do from an EGW perspective. Just my thoughts on the matter! Colleen | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 1151 Registered: 11-2002 |
It's great your daughter has some clean cut friends. I went through public colleges and it's my opinion that whatever kind of friends or associates someone is looking to be with then that is the type of people that person will find. As far as the Sabbath-keeping party people go, well, I think it's not all that unusual of an attitude. The brainwashing, the total indoctrination of the SDA religion into a persons deepest part of their minds can be so total that it's not unusual for someone to cling to the SDA church in an emotional way, always in the back of his or her mind knowing that even though he/she isn't living according to the truth now at least he/she knows the truth so when the Sunday laws hit then he/she will at least know the truth, can embrase it at the last minute and thus won't be lost. I have told this story before but it's been awhile and there are a lot of new folks on here since I last mentioned it so I'll say it again. Many years ago when our children were just little kids in grade school I knew a SDA man in my community who was a prominant drug dealer. He sent his child to the local SDA school. He took his child to Sabbath School every week. He said he had to do it this way because he couldn't make enough money at a wage paying job to afford his childs tuition. I think pretty much everyone at this particular SDA church knew how this man was making his living. People would talk about it. They would say how wonderful that he was willing to risk so much (possibly prison) so that his child could have a Christian education. I would hear people use this man as an example of the church being for sinners. I remember wondering how come some of those SDA's who owned their own businesses didn't offer this fellow a legitimate job. It's really weird because whenever he would ask someone to babysit his child he would make sure the babysitter knew she had better not give his kid a piece of food with any lard or pork in it. He told all his clients (numerous local heroin addicts) they had to get enough heroin by sunset Friday to get them through until sunset Saturday because he would not break the forth commandment by working on the Sabbath. And, he steadfastly stuck to his committment to the Sabbath. I personally know numerous SDA's in that congreation who admired this young father for his committment to the Sabbath and his committment to parenthood because he took his child to church each Saturday and taught his child the SDA way of Sabbath observance. My point of sharing this story is to illistrate just how strong of a hold 'being true to the Sabbath 'ie: sda church' can be. In fact, this man used the story of having to gather twice as much manna on Fridays when he'd tell his cliants not to dare call him with an emergency over the Sabbath. To turn totally away from all truth and know you are paying homage to The Beast is only something that people raised deep with this mindset can understand. I have observed the same thing with JW's that I know. It's easy to rationalize poor choices as long as one knows they can always go back to the truth when the time to make the choice of no return comes. I hope this post is making sense. I know what I'm trying to convey. One particular mutual friend used to telll me it made no sense that his kid couldn't eat a hotdog or a balogna sandwich but he'd sell heroin and and other illegial substances to make a living. So much for the SDA health message. I guess it's only for the ones who know the truth f it. | ||
| Bb Registered user Username: Bb Post Number: 40 Registered: 7-2004 |
Sabra and Colleen, your answers really helped my thinking pattern! That is true that the devil (tricky like a fox) is out to deceive. I don't really know what is going on in the other false religions...are they leaving too? We really do seem to fit into the other weird religions, don't we. And Susan, Whoa! I hadn't heard that story, but it drives my point home. That man is an extreme example of what I was talking about. I guess I too, felt that way when I was holding fast to the religion. Maybe I was sinning, but I had the "truth" and if the Sunday laws hit, I could run back and start being perfect! It is a set-up to go insane, I think! And the fact that the church members all knew it and thought highly of him! How ridiculus. How sad. We have a JW in-law that we see once or twice a year. She came to a birthday dinner we had not long ago, and she didn't eat. Of course she will come to the anniversary celebrations but is against birthdays. When I see that, I so much identify with what she is trying to do. She has relieved her guilt of going to the birthday party by not eating. Like going window shopping on Sabbath, but not buying anything. | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 134 Registered: 10-2004 |
Hehe, Ellen White was against both birthday and anniversary celebrations. ;-) "...I will not sanction feasts made to celebrate birthday or marriage anniversaries..." (The Signs of the Times, 01-04-1883, paragraph 8.) Jeremy | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 1007 Registered: 12-2003 |
Now that's an interesting quote, Jeremy! It must be one of the less-known or conveniently forgotten ones, because most of the most conservative Adventists I know will not only attend but delight in dinners given to honor their birthdays or anniversaries! Sometimes I think Adventists have "selective hearing" when it comes to Ellen...especially when what they "hear" might deprive them of feeling special! (Feeling special really is part of the deal, isn't it? Special people, special food, special theology, special place in history, etc.) Praise Jesus that He alone is worthy of our praise! Colleen | ||
| Sabra Registered user Username: Sabra Post Number: 281 Registered: 10-2001 |
Bb, When you doubt, re-read Galatians. It is so clear that grace and grace alone is the answer to our sin. May the Lord continue to guide you in all truth, Sabra | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 135 Registered: 10-2004 |
Yes, and remember that Ellen taught a false gospel of grace plus works. Since she taught a false gospel she is a false prophet eternally condemned according to Galatians 1! Jeremy | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 1153 Registered: 11-2002 |
In the sermon this morning the preist said we are now "living in the age of grace". He then went on and gave several quotes from Martin Luther. Areİany of you familiar with with that term, "the age of grace". I would like to know if this is just a Lutheran term or if it is a generally accepted term across Christian understanding. Of course, we can be sure it is a term thatİSDA's will not hear or read in their sermons or publications. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 1009 Registered: 12-2003 |
Although I can't remember if I've actually heard that term before, Susan, the idea is what we understand the new covenant to be. Jesus has shed His eternal blood of the covenant to open a new and living way to the Father, and we are able to enter His presence now by grace, washed clean and counted righteous because of His grace-full sacrifice! Colleen | ||
| Vchowdhury1 Registered user Username: Vchowdhury1 Post Number: 87 Registered: 7-2004 |
Bp and others, what really keeps me sane in these times of truth searching (which lead to my break-away from the sda church)is that the event that the sda church is preparing itself for, i.e., the Sunday Law, the persecution of the Sabbath keepers etc.,is completely UN-BIBLICAL! I too, since breaking away, have nawing little doubts in the back of my head such as "what if THEY are right", or what if we should KEEP the SABBATH"...etc., etc. And for the past couple of Sundays while sitting in a wonderful Presbyterian Church listening to a wondersul sermon on the character of Christ, there is a nawing little voice in the back of my head saying "why are you here, Valerie"? But, like I said, that is why it is sooo important to keep studying the Bible, because you realize that most of the sda doctrines are in complete contrast to the Word of God. So even though I sometimes still have these nawing thoughts of guilt about leaving the so-called "true church" (in sda opinion only, of course), I know that as long as a follow the scriptures, I'm okay, and I'm doing the right thing. God says in his word that the seal of his people will be the "Holy Spirit". Not the "Sabbath" as sda's believe. Also, I believe that if the "final conflict" of the people of God will be about what is the correct "day of worship", I do believe that God would have told us this in the Holy Scriptures because this is MAJOR. God does not. I think these guilty feelings are the result, only, of being brainwashed all of these years (35 to be exact). I think a lot of the guilty feelings also come from being in constant conflict with our family and friends that are still caught of in the sda mentality. This in itself can be depressing and draining. I was just telling my 11 year old son the other day that I thought that the "sabbath" was the sda "idol" of choice. When the scriptures say "Thou should not have any other Gods before me", the sda's do... they have the "sabbath" before God. | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 138 Registered: 10-2004 |
Yes, I have come to the conclusion that the Sabbath is their chief god of many gods. And Ellen is their chief goddess. Another conclusion I've come to is that SDA weddings are like a funeral in a Christian church! And, in general, SDA funerals are...indescribable. I feel sorry for anyone who has to go to an SDA wedding, or, especially, an SDA funeral! But about the Sabbath, isn't it just ridiculous that they think THE major issue at the end of time is going to be about a DAY, and what DAY you worship GOD on?! Shouldn't it be about WHO you worship?? They sure take the focus off of Jesus, when the Sabbath was meant to be a shadow to point to Him!! Ellen actually says that you get the mark of the beast for worshipping GOD on Sunday! Here's the quote where she actually says that in those words!
She says you go to hell for worshipping GOD!!! The Bible says those who worship the Beast and his image get the mark of the beast, not those who worship GOD!!! Jeremy | ||
| Dd Registered user Username: Dd Post Number: 229 Registered: 7-2004 |
Thanks, Jeremy. I copy a great deal of these quotes you post in a notebook to keep and share with my SDA friends who tell me EGW did not consider herself a prophet or want to be called one...it was only "the brothren" who built her up as a great prophet. Does anyone ever wonder what Madame White had to say about Eph. 1:13,14; 4:30-32; 2 Cor. 1:20-22 that tells us that the Holy Spirit is the Seal of God and the GUARANTEE of our inheritance? | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 599 Registered: 7-2003 |
I have refined my conversations with SDAs in regards to the sabbath. A lot of them quote texts about "the law" as trying to prove an issue with the Sabbath when God speaks quite clearly on what the sabbath is: Lev 23:2-3 SPEAK TO THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL AND SAY TO THEM: "THE FEASTS OF THE LORD, WHICH YOU SHALL PROCLAIM TO BE HOLY CONVOCATIONS, THESE ARE MY FEASTS. SIX DAYS SHALL WORK BE DONE, BUT THE SEVENTH DAY IS A SABBATH OF SOLEMN REST, A HOLY CONVOCATION. YOU SHALL DO NO WORK ON IT; IT IS THE SABBATH OF THE LORD IN ALL YOUR DWELLINGS...." If the Lord God Almighty calls the 7th day sabbath a feast day, who am I to call it anything else? Then I talk about what the NT says about holy days, and that's it. It seems when we get bound on conversations about "law" it gets complex, but if we talk simply about what the scripture ALONE says about the sabbath, there is little to argue about. People have said the 10 Cs are the moral law, I haven't yet seen a scripture passage that says so. There are moral commands in both the 10Cs and the rest of the law...and if they doubt that, I ask about homosexuality, which isn't in the 10 Cs, but is in the "law of Moses" section. I haven't "persuaded" anyone with my thoughts, but they don't argue because they have no scripture that contradicts what the passages I've showed them say. I also think it is a joke to say we can't worship God on Sunday. I keep telling the SDAs I know (who says the Bible doesn't say we should worship on Sunday) that ACTS is very clear that the early Christians met every day...and I suspect "everyday" included "the first day of the week". If it was okay for them, it's okay for me too. It may not win any arguments as far as changing people's minds, but it stops the debate. IF the word of God is the final authority, then the word should be sufficient as it is. | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 600 Registered: 7-2003 |
Dd, When I've asked B, he says "the Bible has many seals...." Don't know about EGW. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 1011 Registered: 12-2003 |
Umm--"Madame White" is strangely silent about the implications of the fact that God Himself lives in us and brings us to eternal life! If you think about what this reality really means, Ellen's teachings are just incredibly pathetic. Praise God for making us His--for actually living in our still-sinful flesh and making us righteous before God! Colleen | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 1158 Registered: 11-2002 |
Jeremy, Have you ever attended a JW funeral? Seveal years ago I ended up in a Kingdom Hall and suffered through a JW funeral. In fact, the deceased had two funerals, one Christian at the funeral hall in town and one JW at the Kingdom Hall in town. All the deceased kin went to the JW funeral but then the JW relatives, which included the deceased own mother refused to attend the Christian funeral at the funeral home. I found out it was because the chapel that the funeral was in at the funeral home had a flag in it, a cross at the front and honor was given to the departed for his service in the military. The JW funeral was extremely depressing. | ||
| Pheeki Registered user Username: Pheeki Post Number: 432 Registered: 1-2003 |
I attended the SDA experimental Cowboy church this last Saturday because my husband played the piano there...anyway, the pastor (during the prayer) asked God to please Tabernacle among them. Now I ask you...didn't he do this at Pentecost? We have the Holy Spirit (a.k.a. the Mind of God) already...they don't seem to understand this. What a strange religion. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 1013 Registered: 12-2003 |
Pheeki, what a very good point. I believe one of the most warping and subtle beliefs of Adventism is their blurry understanding of the Holy Spirit and the new birth. To Adventists, Pentecost was sort of a "power surge" God gave to people to evangelize. Adventists may say the church began then, but they don't really understand that in the powerful sense it really happened. They are still praying for the outpouring of the Holy Spirit--the "latter rain" spoken of in Joel 2. Yet in Acts 2 Paul identifies Pentecost as the fulfillment of that prophecy in Joel 2. I believe that if Adventists really believed The Church--God's true body and His own people born of God --began at Pentecost, they would have a really hard time explaining why it wasn't until the mid-1800's that the REALLY "true" church began. What confusion! Colleen |
