| Author | Message | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 469 Registered: 7-2003 |
When I attended Sunnydale SDA boarding academy ('84-'88) in Centralia, MO we played "end time games" on some Sabbaths. The faculty would play the role of Sunday Keepers and the students would be Sabbath Keepers on the run. We students would start out in Chances Park, which was an old abandoned overgrown park in a woods surrounded by fields. The idea was that we were in the wilderness in flight from the Sunday keepers. We were supposed to try and make it back to the dorms, perhaps a 1/2 mile or less away without getting caught. You could try to surrepticiously follow the creek line through the woods to get back or just burst out of the woods and sprint at full speed across open fields. The faculty memebers were all over around the edges of the woods and would attempt to tag you. If you got tagged you were cuaght by the Sunday Keepers and taken to the Ad building to be put on trial for your beliefs. In these mock trials you would be forced to defend the Sabbath without the aid of a Bible becasue all Bibles had been confiscated by the Sunday keepers. Nearly all my friends that attended other SDA boarding academies during the same time period have had similar experiences. I don't know if this is still done, but it was certainly common at that time. My wife pointed out to me once that Pathfinders was really designed to prep kids for fleeing into the wilderness during the endtimes. I hadn't thought of it before, but after reflection, I think she's right. I would be interested to hear if any others on this group agree. Chris | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 241 Registered: 4-2000 |
Susan, I attended public schools through my junior year in high school. When I arrived at Sheyenne River Academy, in 1963 as a senior, I too was shocked to find some students into playing ouiji boards and a key in Daniel 7 games. I had never heard of such nonsense before. The idea was to place any key in Chapter 7 of Daniel and then ask Satan to do strange things for you (i.e., take your roller skates and plow them into the dean's apartment door at midnight, etc.). When telling a devout SDA these type of stories they often say, "Well, you know, the devil works hardest in our schools." If indeed that is true, according to their own observations, Adventist parents and grandparents need to boycott Adventist education for their youngsters. Why would anyone send their kids to a school where the devil is working overtime? To our displeasure, Sylvia and I have two grandchildren attending an SDA elementary school in Washington State. We are reaping the results of our cultic past. It is not easy to admit to your adult children that you taught them wrong about the most important part of life. We decided to take it the Cross and leave it there. Dennis Fischer | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 242 Registered: 4-2000 |
Chris, I think the SDA endtime scenario is a vital, interwoven part of the wilderness survival honors, etc. in Pathfindering. This is strongly enabled by their being of one belief system. Although these things are done in a fun context, they are nevertheless done in a subtle manner to prepare for the worst. The idea of Catholics and/or Sunday keepers chasing us all over this land is very traditional Adventism. With their US vs. THEM mentality, it is no surprise that some SDA students turn out to be David Koresh types, separatists, offshoot leaders, extremists, etc. I know of Adventists that are virtual prisoners in their own homes here in Lincoln, Nebraska. They are strict vegans. So, they can never enjoy a meal at a restaurant. Actually, they don't even like to be invited to most SDA homes for Sabbath dinner. They also can't partake of chocolate, Valentino's pizza, sodas, ad infinitum. Their favorite conversation at the dinner table is endlessly about diet and health. What a sad, self-imposed, restricted lifestyle! Dennis Fischer | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 1004 Registered: 12-2003 |
Chris, I agree. While I believe Pathfinders had roots in the post World War ethos of SDA Medical Cadets, etc., it also prepped us for survival in the wilderness. We had a Pathfinder leader who taught us what plants we could eat, what berries were edible (unfurled fern fronds, plentiful in the western Oregon woods, are definitely on the "to eat" list), etc. We learned to make fires without matches (a skill I never perfected) and to cook food over an open fire. Interestingly, LLU Church had, for years (and perhaps still has), regular classes in "edible wild plants". It's all about surviving the time of trouble when they have to flee for their lives without the benefit of a mediator. Dennis, I know people like the vegans you describe. It's painful to eat with them--if, indeed, one can! The conversation, as you said, is shallow and food-oriented. Another Adventist discipline just piqued Richard's memory a while ago. We were out doing some shopping, etc., and it began to rain persistently. (That's a phenomenon worth noticing here in So Cal!) Richard remembered that over 20 years ago he was on a car trip from California to Idaho. He had to travel Friday night (already a breach of strict Sabbath keeping), but he carried cans of gasoline so he could refill his car at the side of the road instead of buying gas on Friday night. (Right there lie a number of potential hazards.) As fate had it, it poured that night, and, instead of pulling into gas stations with protective roofs, he refilled that car by the side of narrow mountain roads in sparsely populated Idaho and Nevada, refilling the gas tank in a driving rain storm. "I wonder how many Adventists have literally lost their lives or livelihoods as the result of the church's rigid requirements?" he asked rhetorically. Sigh. Praise God for Jesus! Colleen | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 1005 Registered: 12-2003 |
Melissa, I so feel for you regarding that difficult visit with B's family. I'm glad you didn't stay over night! And paise God that you can talk with your older son. Jonathan will need him as he grows! I continue to pray for you and your kids and your situation. Colleen | ||
| U2bsda Registered user Username: U2bsda Post Number: 6 Registered: 11-2004 |
The Sabbath issue makes me angry. It is such a big issue to SDAs that they are concerned for my salvation because I am no longer a Sabbath keeper. Yet, they don't keep the Sabbath the way the Bible instructs. I realize their point of view that Jesus came to teach us how to keep the Sabbath and that the Sabbath was made for man... Still when I see family checking sports scores, watching movies of vacation trips, playing video games, going "window" shopping, "shopping" online, etc it makes me angry. When I visit family I try to avoid non-Sabbath things when they are around. They do so much more than I do. If it is so important to keep the Sabbath that I would loose my salvation then why do they do things that scream of hypocrisy. I realized that that they don't feel that the keeping of the Sabbath is linked to salvation, but believing in the Sabbath is key. I could do Sabbathy things every Sabbath and it still wouldn't be enough. I would have to believe in the Sabbath to be saved. | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 1156 Registered: 11-2002 |
Colleen, I also have had relatives who take gas cans full of gas with them over Sabbath so they don't have to spend money at a gas station over Sabbath. My kin actually have long discussions on those sorts of things-is this o.k. to do, should I avoid that activity, etc. It's something someone could make a movie about and to others watching the movie the family would seem really farout, kind of like the Osborns only we could call it the SDA's. I always thought the gasoline thing seemed awfully dangerous. I also have known SDA's who won't even eat at their own church potlucks or if they do they only will eat the food they themselves brought because they really don't know what is in the other dishes and they don't know if the person who prepared the food washed her hands thoroughally before preparing the food. I have a relative who was needed to help move a different relative. The moving relative had packed her frozen foods into a box. The one helping move refused to carry the box of frozen foods to the car because the box had packages of pork in it. I thought that was so extreme. I mentioned it to some of my other SDA relaives and asked if they thought it was extreme. They all said they would have behaved the same way. Think about it. The pork is in packags and it's also in a cardboard box. Recently we ordered pizzas. We had a houseful of people. So wanting to please everyone we ordered one with Canadian bacan and pineapple, one pepperoni, one with beef and olives and one vegetarian. The SDA's left saying they wouldn't be in a home where pork was served. I just thought that was so-----(insert your word of choice here). My children and me honestly were thinkng that way we would accomadate everyone. As far as Pathfinders goes, I hated Pathfinders so much that my parents finily got tired of me saying how much I hated it when I was a little girl and I got to stop going. I had previouselly been in Girl Scouts and I loved it. But because of the Sabbath issue I had to quit Girl Scouts and go into Pathfinders. Pathfinders was mosty marching. I always wondered how come we had to learn marching and miltary drills whe the church taught to be conceious objectors. Can someone please explain that contradiction to me? | ||
| Freeatlast Registered user Username: Freeatlast Post Number: 241 Registered: 5-2002 |
Straining out the gnats while swallowing the camel... | ||
| Pheeki Registered user Username: Pheeki Post Number: 431 Registered: 1-2003 |
I too was in Pathfinders and all we did was march and practice holding flags, etc. We practiced so we could march into church. I hated Pathfinders and begged to quit. My mom finally let us quit. I have some relatives who are not vegan but are vegetarians and if they go to Subway to get a sandwich and the person making the sandwich has just made a meat sandwich for someone, they make them change their plastic gloves. It has gotten so bad that when my mom has them over for dinner, they either bring their own food or don't eat. They came for Thanksgiving and sat and watched us eat. They are so afraid that her dishes or spoons have touched meat or something. It really is un-loving and upsets my mom. But all they care about is themselves, not her feelings...they associate righteousness with food and though they really don't attend the SDA church with any regularity or study the Bible, they are saved and righteous by what they eat. SAD! My other in-law is vegan. She lives in California and gives classes in the community on veganism and through that has sucked people into SDA bible studies. I must admit, her food is good...the things I have sampled but I think it is sad that food is a hook to get people indoctrinated into SDAism. | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 598 Registered: 7-2003 |
I had a non-SDA vegetarian say that if a vegan eats anything with meat products (even sour cream) they become very ill because their body has lost the enzymes that digests the food. Is that true? | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 470 Registered: 7-2003 |
One word, Melissa: "Psychosomatic" (Having bodily symptoms from a mental rather than physical disorder) Chris | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 1157 Registered: 11-2002 |
My Hindu vegan friend told me people become canabals because they are suffering from mineral deficiencies. The only way canabals can get their minerals in ballance is by eating the meat of people who have a perfect ballance of minerals. I sometimes think I have been blessed to know more than my fair share of loonies. At the Hare KrishnaÝmeetings the service always ends with a vegan feast. Well, not really. They do not use meat or eggs, they do consume dairy. The food is wonderful. I love it. Did you know placenta is the only animal meat that can be eaten in which the animal does not have to die for the meat to be had? I have a vegetarian magazine (not SDA) that includes placenta recipies because placenta is o.k. because the animal doesn't have to die. It also recommends a lady to eat her placenta after giving birth because placenta is neaarly 100% protein and the ladies milk comes in faster and is a higher quality of milk if she devours her placenta. Yes, these are really things one learns when convorting with people on the fringe of socitial norm. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 1012 Registered: 12-2003 |
Psychosomatic is IT--it's absolutely amazing what a vegetarian can eat and enjoy if he doesn't know what he's eating! Richard still has memories of eating lunch at a friend's house when he was quite young. When he got home, his mom, in true alarm, called the neighbor to see what she had fed him. To her absoltue horror she learned the friend's mom had browned some beef brains which had been part of the lunch Richard ate. He says they tasted wonderful (he didn't know it was meat when he ate it), but he wouldn't be able to voluntarily eat beef (brains or not!) today. He realizes it's a deeply ingrained repulsion, and he knows I'm praying for his deliverance...! Yes, he did carve the turkey on Thanksgiving as usual, though! Colleen | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 111 Registered: 7-2004 |
This Thanksgiving, I've added turkey to my list of meats that I have eaten. My husband, Ric_b made it, and he's an excellent cook. I liked it every bit as much as the grilled chicken that we've been regularly eating. However, I couldn't bring myself to put the gravy on it--watching the fat get stirred in was a little gross. | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 112 Registered: 7-2004 |
Guess I should add, that I couldn't eat much of it. My mom was at the table, and I know she didn't have a clue I'd ever had meat before. Not a word was said. Which is worse, to be in a family that is completely silent about sensitive topics (but you can feel what is being thought) or being in a family that is abusive with what is said... Given a choice, I guess I prefer the silence. | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 142 Registered: 10-2004 |
We actually had turkey for Thanksgiving this year, too! It actually tastes good, at least after a few bites. All of our relatives were shocked that we ate turkey, and that we eat meat now! (They also eat meat even though they are Adventist or sort-of Adventist.) My family sounds like yours Colleen. My dad is the one who still cannot bring himself to eat meat. I did not eat any of the plastic chicken (Fri-Chik) loaf. ;-) Did you know that if they spun those soybeans any longer they would turn into plastic? Fri-Chik, for the past few years now, even has "rubber bands" of soy in it. It's absolutely disgusting. Definitely worse than eating meat. ;-) Jeremy | ||
| Freeatlast Registered user Username: Freeatlast Post Number: 244 Registered: 5-2002 |
My wife and I fondly call all veggie-meat "the image of the beast" ;>) | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 601 Registered: 7-2003 |
Very funny, Chris. It was a bit of a brave stretch, but on Thanksgiving day when we were at my home with my family, I gave my son turkey in front of B. I still feel self-conscious about it, but at the same time am determined that I am not creating double standards in my own home, if possible. He ate it and even asked for seconds. B didn't say anything. On the other hand, when we were at his parent's house, his sister in law was very gracious about how people who were not raised eating fake turkey often found it hard to like it later, just like people not raised eating turkey had a hard time eating it later. I think she was trying to make us appear "okay" to her kids, but she also said she was never allowed to eat meat when she was a child. It was a very awkward exchange to which every one else sat very silent. It is very strange the emotions this whole topic brings up. Initially, I never imagined it would be such a big deal. | ||
| Dd Registered user Username: Dd Post Number: 231 Registered: 7-2004 |
Those silent "responses" are deafening. It is amazing how many SDAs respond with the same "answer" to anyone commenting on something they know is not "truth". Since I use to do this myself I know exactly what is happening inside their head. "Boy, is she wrong! Why would she even say that? She knows what the truth really is and she knows I know, too." I never once spoke up to defend my position on my SDA beliefs with a SDA (or even a non-SDA Christian) who spoke contrary to what I knew was "truth". It's too scary to get into a debate with someone who may want proof to back up what you are talking about. In the SDA life, proof is not something you have, it is something you just know because it was what you were told to believe. This very thing is what my own mother is doing right now. It has been two months since she accused me of not "keeping" Sabbath. When my response was, "I keep Sabbath 7 days a week, 24 hours a day because my rest is in Jesus" the conversation stopped. She refused to answer me and has not called me since. When I call her she is not herself. Her silence is very loud and deafening. | ||
| Pradez2 Registered user Username: Pradez2 Post Number: 1 Registered: 12-2003 |
This reminds me of reading a forum in So. Africa where the imam answered questions. There were many tortous ways to explain away behaviour in accordance with the prophet Mohammed,i.e. read EGW  |
