Archive through December 08, 2004 Log Out | Topics | Search
Moderators | Edit Profile

Former Adventist Fellowship Forum » ARCHIVED DISCUSSIONS 3 » Another Forum Could Use Some Help » Archive through December 08, 2004 « Previous Next »

Author Message
Susan_2
Registered user
Username: Susan_2

Post Number: 1191
Registered: 11-2002
Posted on Tuesday, December 07, 2004 - 9:00 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

That woman (man?) is nuts. I read the Review and the other SDA publications and if the church is changing as she says it is only from the general conference trying to reign its members in more tightly. She seems to have totally missed the entire point with her comment about jewlery! So what! There is more jewlery now in a SDA church than there is in secular society! So what. So the Adventists can out secular the secular. That's too bad because jewlery is every bit as much against the SDA doctrines now as it was against the SDA dectrines years ago. That just means even the SDA's aren't following and practicing what they say they believe-the official 27 (soon to be 28) doctrines of Adventism. An example I think is good would be that when my children were young and immature and they would want to eat a huge piece of cake. To humor them I would let them have a tiny little cookie. I think most SDA's are immature in their relationship with Jesus and the truly long for more. So, to humor them the conference gives them the privledge of wearing jewlery. It's a lously substitute for what the people truly desire but it humors them for now. I have read several different SDA discussions. I have all my life been prone to having vivid, graphic nightmares. Reading SDA trash, weather it be internet discussion boards, the Review, Annoying Fction or any of the others totally will cause me to have a very miserable night. I also sense an evil presence when I bring that stuff into my mind. I leave it alone. About the nightmares-I use to pray when I was a little girl that I wanted my parents, my Sabbath school teachers, my teachers at the SDA church, etc. to be wrong about what they were teaching me about the state of the dead. I would think, "It could be zillions and zillions of years yet before Jesus comes. I don't want to have nightmares for zillions and zillions of years. I'll be in a coffin and I won't be able to wake up and get away". I thought like that because I only would hear that death is not really death but is sleeping. And, when I was a real little girl I would say over and over John 3:16 and the part that says, "will not die but have everlasting life" I woud pray that what that text said was right and not what I was being taught. I absoutely HATE the SDA teaching on the state of the dead. Jeremy, I read on that discussion board you gave the address to by the youth. Those youth sound very hard core. Jesus and the Holy Spirit are not referenced to hardly ever. While I was reading that I was thinking of my ittle granddaughter who is in 1st grade at a SDA school and I was just praying for her that she'll be too strong willed and that I can be an influence on her so that she won't get sucked into the SDA groupthink mode.
Praisegod
Registered user
Username: Praisegod

Post Number: 166
Registered: 3-2004
Posted on Tuesday, December 07, 2004 - 9:11 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Wow! I haven't been on christianity.com forum for a couple of days and it sounds like it's heating up. I've got to leave now, but I'll try to check in later.

I want to say "thank you" so much for all who have been posting. I feel sorry for pw that he was immediately attacked but this tells me that you're making a HUGE difference.

It appeared that when I popped into that forum totally "coincidentally" there were no "formers" speaking out. Now there are and I cannot help but think this is making a huge difference to lurkers out there.

TDF, I believe you make a valid point. I really pray about what and how I say things. I really want God to use me in a respectful manner. Originally I never wanted to be involved in these other forums because they are so snarly. I've been praying for the Holy Spirit to help me be direct, kind, loving, informative, grace-filled etc all without anger. You know how hard that is some times!?!?!?!? I've also been praying for a protective shell that the things coming against me, such as being called a liar, don't impact my message or remove me from the peace of Jesus. Did you ever think that it's war out there?

Praise God...
Pw
Registered user
Username: Pw

Post Number: 218
Registered: 6-2004
Posted on Tuesday, December 07, 2004 - 9:48 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Trying to expose a false teaching is never going to be easy. And the people involved in it will defend it no matter what. This is nothing new, it's been going on since the beginning of the church in Acts. On one hand the Bible says we shouldn't dispute over matters, but on the other hand Paul had to set the Galatians straight when they were getting off based with their teachings because they were being based on opinions instead. It's so awesome to have the Bible to use as a reference.
Helovesme2
Registered user
Username: Helovesme2

Post Number: 59
Registered: 8-2004
Posted on Tuesday, December 07, 2004 - 10:29 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I agree with TDF that we should be careful how we speak here. There are searching SDA's who read here who see the sarcasm and read no further. They say "What a bitter, bitter group. How mean they are! I'm so glad I have the truth!" and that's that. (Till the next time they go looking around at least!)

I fully understand that many of us have reason to be bitter, that there are many and deep wounds, And we need to be able to express ourselves honestly. We have the freedom to say what we think. But let us not use our freedom in such a way that our faith will be unnecessarily spoken against!

For many of us though, the reasons for our faith now are not because of the bitterness and wounds, but because of our own walk with God, our own study, our own following where God leads. Let's keep sharing that part too!

Love in Christ!

Helovesme2
Susan_2
Registered user
Username: Susan_2

Post Number: 1193
Registered: 11-2002
Posted on Tuesday, December 07, 2004 - 10:57 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I honestly don't think I am bitter in the least bit. I apologise for my tacky sense of humor. I didn't intend to offend anyone, I thought Botchler for Batchler was funny. In fact, I still think it's funny but I honestly don't want to be offensive. I'll keep my humor off this board from now on.
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker

Post Number: 1045
Registered: 12-2003
Posted on Tuesday, December 07, 2004 - 10:59 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

PW, that response you got is so very typical. It actually represents many Adventists, particularly those in college/university communities where there are people who are trying to come to terms with the dissonance between traditional SDA doctrines and mainstream Christianity.

Bottom line, though, Raven and Tdf are right. You can't embrace both Biblical truth and Adventism. They may seem compatible on the surface, but they draw you in increasingly opposite directions. I still come back to Dale Ratzlaff's comment, "There are only two kinds of Adventists: the deceived and the dishonest." (I add that there are those who are "waking up" and are in a middle ground of study and decision-making.)

I continue to pray that the Holy Spirit will be present here on this forum with us and with all who lurk. I pray that He will protect all of us from deception, from unkindness and attacking, and that He will make this a place of unity in Him and a place of support and truth and growth.

I praise Him for His work among us!

Colleen
Pw
Registered user
Username: Pw

Post Number: 219
Registered: 6-2004
Posted on Tuesday, December 07, 2004 - 11:31 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Susan-2. Don't leave off your sense of humor. I enjoy it. As for Adventists looking at this site and thinking we are bitter. It's possible, but I think those who are truly interested in why we left will explore it deeper and hopefully begin to question the same theories we did.
Helovesme2
Registered user
Username: Helovesme2

Post Number: 60
Registered: 8-2004
Posted on Tuesday, December 07, 2004 - 12:17 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yes Susan, I like your sense of humor too! Humor is a good thing!

I was not suggesting we should become dry and humorless.

helovesme2
Susan_2
Registered user
Username: Susan_2

Post Number: 1195
Registered: 11-2002
Posted on Tuesday, December 07, 2004 - 2:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

In eight months from this week I will once again be living in Paradise, and not in the JW meaning of the word. Sometime during the first week of August I am planning on going back out to Hawaii. I wish forever but most likley for just several months. I have several children who plan to go back there and to be honest they are guys and they need a woman's touch is setting up a home. I will most likley be there for two months. Then someday I will be joining them for pernmant relocation. We all have lived there before so we know what we're getting into. Please pray that we are following God's plan in this. At this time the planned move seems to be the right thing at the right time. I love it there as does my children. We will be living in the poorest area of the United States after the coal mining regions in Appalachia. We will for sure be in an ethnic minority but that is fine as the other ethnicisities are accepting. Actually, Hawaii is the only state that has no ethnic majority. Being in such a diverse ethnic area just means that we'd better learn their customs and ways and traditions fast so we can acclamate that much faster. The key to being in a situtation like that from my experiences is to kiss up to the natives as much as possible. Make them think you honestly believe they are superior in every way and you are so thankful to be allowed on their turf. Then they really like you. It has worked every time so far for me when I've landed myself in another rhelm so if it works then I'll stick with it.
Please, keep this in your pryers. When out there before I found a wonderful small Baptist church that I attended. The pastors wife and I corrospond and we talk sometimes on the phone. I will most likly hook up with the Lutheran church as there is one in the large city nearby. The small town I lived near had a Baptist church and a Catholic church, both that I attended. The ministers wife (Baptist), in fact, told me I might be more confortable at the Lutheran than the Baptist as that is more how I'm used to a worship service and I'm more used to the Lutheran traditions and customs. Christians are a minority religion in Hawaii (Hawaii is the only state in which Christianity is not the majority religion) so the various denominations tend to work together alot. I know the Baptist and the Lutherans do and I've heard other dnomnations do as well. Please, keep these plans of ours in your prayers. All things work to good for those who love the Lord.
Helovesme2
Registered user
Username: Helovesme2

Post Number: 64
Registered: 8-2004
Posted on Tuesday, December 07, 2004 - 2:31 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Wow Susan_2! That'll be a change, but I know from your other posts that you'll probably love it and make out just fine! I'll be praying for you and your kids safe journey.

Hope things go smoothly!

helovesme2
Melissa
Registered user
Username: Melissa

Post Number: 619
Registered: 7-2003
Posted on Tuesday, December 07, 2004 - 3:38 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

There are moments that are sarcastic, but I would not say it is prolific. I read a lot of compassion on here too, like the prayer time for the leaders of the religion, etc. Many come here frustrated, and some in pain. It's a natural part of the grieving process to experience anger. And as I understand it from many on here, there is real grieving at this separation. Yes, some things may be insensitive. But how do we have a forum that is welcoming and healing for those grieving and yet be inoffensive to those looking in from the outside? The only way I know to do that is to be silent about negative feelings...but that seems deceitful too.

it is certainly good to be reminded of the things we say from time to time, but I hate to remove the safety of voicing true feelings at the same time. I don't know how people heal when forced to stuff their rawest emotions, and with the uniqueness of this forum, it doesn't seem there are "former" support groups in each city where one can voice feelings in private either. If someone wants to look at this forum and condemn the words, they're looking for something negative. There are plenty of positive strings that have uplifting and supporting things said as well.

Personally, I delete many things before I even post because I don't want to offend someone, but I also feel alone in my journey because I don't have anyone to talk to about it and I'm not a "former" officially...and thankfully. Sometimes I'm better than others, it just depends upon what's going on. I appreciate the warning to be conscienscious, but hate to take away the "support" aspect of this forum by not allowing people to "vent", even when it's not pretty. How can we have both? Sometimes our feelings just don't represent Christ well...do we just not acknowledge them?

I'm really asking. I wonder about that in my personal conversations too....
Helovesme2
Registered user
Username: Helovesme2

Post Number: 65
Registered: 8-2004
Posted on Tuesday, December 07, 2004 - 4:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I think we definitely need the safety of voicing our true feelings - often we don't even recognize our feelings till we begin to talk about them. I'm not sure what the answer is either.

Where I live I'm constantly having to watch what I say knowing that anything not 'just so' will be used against me, and that spills over to what I say this forum as well (I know I'm not the only one on here with that).

I struggle with the balance between the freedom of the Gospel (what a joy that is!!) and 'all things to all men, that I might by all means save some' (1 Cor. 9:22).

It is a struggle I'm battling particularly hard with right now.

If you think about it, pray for me!

helovesme2


Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker

Post Number: 1048
Registered: 12-2003
Posted on Tuesday, December 07, 2004 - 5:07 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dear helovesme2, I am praying for you.

Melissa, I agree that we cannot give up talking about our frustration and anger. It's part of the process, as you said, of leaving this church. I'm convinced that Adventists do see many of our feelings as bitter or negative just because of their perspective. When we're inside this process, we can see that we're not just annoyed or bitter. We're dealing with powerful emotions of joy, betrayal, fear, hope, discovery, guilt, etc--all occurring suddenly and even unexpectedly.

The reason I've become convinced that no matter how careful we are, we'll be seen as negative by some is that a few years ago, our pastoral staff was approached by a couple of highly-placed Loma Linda Adventists and asked about changing the name of our ministry because "Former Adventist Fellowship" was much too negative. Now, that name seems from where I stand to be clear, non-judgmental, and welcoming to those who are no longer Adventists. People who are still in the church, however, apparently are offended even by the public acknowledgment that there are local former Adventists needing fellowship!

(Our senior pastor, God bless him, said he was not asking us to change our name. In fact, he said it needed to remain in order to correctly identify who/what we are.)

I clearly remember one day about five years ago meeting an Adventist lady I knew in a local market. She didn't know my association with FAF (at least she didn't then!), and when she asked where I'd been (she hadn't seen me in church), I told her, "Trinity Church".

"Oh," she said, conspiratorially, "did you know that they have a group for disgruntled Adventists?!" I told her I knew the group was not for disgruntled Adventists but for former Adventists--who were not angry.

I understand the comments about cynicism and rudeness; I remember feeling quite protective myself when my identity was still somewhat connected to the church. I now understand that many things that sound negative to someone still inside--especially to someone who is searching but fearful of what they'll discover--do not feel negative or cynical to someone leaving. Rather, they feel cathartic. There's no substitute for just saying what you've come to believe, i.e. "Ellen White is a false prophet!", for example.

Wow, that was a hard one for me to say at first! But I had to say it before I could embrace my freedom of Jesus.

Still, I pray that my words will be from and for Jesus, and that He will protect me from arrogance and deception.

Colleen

Chris
Registered user
Username: Chris

Post Number: 485
Registered: 7-2003
Posted on Tuesday, December 07, 2004 - 5:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Melissa, I hope you do not feel like an outsider here. You have been affected by Adventism in profound ways. You are still forced to struggle with the web of Adventism, up close and personal, in ways that many of us no longer do. You are an integral part of the forum. I enjoy your insights and listening to your experiences. You are most assuredly a part of our online family.

Chris
Spokenfor
Registered user
Username: Spokenfor

Post Number: 56
Registered: 12-2003
Posted on Tuesday, December 07, 2004 - 6:09 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I don't post here often but I know I've been guilty of some unnecessary sarcasm, most recently in reference to Doug Batchelor. I apologize for this rudeness as it is unkind and certainly unchristlike to slander someone's name. Thank you for pointing that out Tdf.

Since leaving the sda denomination a year ago I've struggled with a barrage of emotions - ranging from the incredible joy that comes from knowing Jesus as my Savior to deep and chronic depression at the loss of friends and family that results from leaving the church to intense anger at a system that holds my loved ones captive in a web of deceipt. I know I vent these frustrations in a way that is sometimes cynical. I haven't meant to offend anyone but I'm sure I have at times. I humbly and sincerely apologize for this.
Spokenfor
Dd
Registered user
Username: Dd

Post Number: 244
Registered: 7-2004
Posted on Tuesday, December 07, 2004 - 8:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sometimes I think it is particularly difficult to not be bitter. Other times it is easy to shrug Adventism off or laugh it off. I live in a huge SDA mecca and since my chilren are still in the school system, somedays I feel like everyone I come into contact with is "against" me. Nobody says anything negative. Everyone is kind and polite but I sense what is said about me.

I do not believe I am being paranoid when I say this. It is just fact. It started out to just be a few people that I felt this negative "vibe" from but as I have grown in the love of Christ, I have become more vocal about my "7-24 Sabbath Day" rest in Jesus and His New Covenant with me. Nobody argues or debates. They just smile politely but their silence says everything. I am sure they all talk about how "she has learned all that 'stuff' from that non-denominational Bible study that she is in". I know they are all praying for me as I go through "this struggle".

This forum is a HUGE blessing in my life. You guys truly are "family" to me. I have non-SDA Christian friends who give me love and support but their understanding is not comparable to all the positive reinforcement I receive from reading your thoughts and insights.

I, too, apologize humbly and pray that I will be more sensitive to those who need to see the love of Jesus shine on this forum. To me, that is why I am so drawn to all of you. Your love for Jesus is what I love most about each of you.
Tdf
Registered user
Username: Tdf

Post Number: 14
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Wednesday, December 08, 2004 - 6:46 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

First, let me say that I am grateful for this forum both for myself and others who are benefitted by the open discussion that happens here. Second, my comment about "Bochelar" was simply meant as a silly example and I was not trying to single anyone out. Rather, I was challenging all of us to express our negative impressions, thoughts and emotions in constructive ways.

Melissa, I certainly see value in expressing negativity. I have done that. I will continue to need to do that. It sounds as though you've needed to do that and so have others. From my perspective, this seems like a valid use of this forum.

Susan, I also do not believe that we need to check our sense of humor at the door. I LOVE to joke around myself and laughter has been good medicine during this dark chapter in the life of my family.

Colleen, your comment reminds me of comments made by my family that indicate, "When you've had a few more life experiences--then you'll understand and you'll realize we are right." Because my family, my wife's family and all of our friends are still deeply connected to the SDA church, I don't know that there will ever be a time when I will not be in some way connected to the SDA Church. Although I no longer hold church offices, and although my wife and I are actively involved a Methodist Church, I have compassion for those who remain in the SDA church.

At the end of the day, I have no problem with constructive criticism of the SDA church--I am certainly actively involved in it myself. All of us will have to come to a point where we are able to forgive the SDA church and the specific persons who have hurt us. I admit that I am still at the beginning stages of mourning. Sometimes comments on this site feel a bit like salt in open wounds and it's hard for me not to speak up and say, "Hey, we've been shown grace--in the same way, let's also extend it."

tdf
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker

Post Number: 1053
Registered: 12-2003
Posted on Wednesday, December 08, 2004 - 9:52 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

You're right, Tdf--we do all have to come to the point of being able to forgive the church and also those who have hurt us. Forgiveness sometimes means, as our pastor explained in a sermon series he gave last year, that even when the offender is never able to repent, we forgive them by surrendering them to God. When the offense has been deep and wounding and there is no repentance, we cannot restore a relationship that allows us to be vulnerable to more wounding. But we can give up our right to get even by allowing God that sovereign responsibility. To carry the need to get even will ultimately destroy us.

As for remaining connected to the church in some way forever--I'm with you there! Richard, although he is completely open about his no longer being a member, still works for the denomination. God has clearly protected him and kept him in his job even when his position was threatened because of his non-membership and ministry. Yet God uses him there. In spite of Richard's frequent discomfort and the veiled discrimination which seems the result of his "defection", he senses God's peace and calming presence. One day a community spiritual leader spoke to him on the street and said, "I want you to know that I really admire what you are doing. You have not left the community as most do when they leave the church."

In addition, half of our family remains staunch, even historic Adventists. My comments about some statements seeming more harsh when still inside than they do later are not meant in any way to be condescending. They spring, rather, from our personal experience. The longer we are out of the church, the more we become rooted in Bible study and growing in Jesus, the more cultic the church looks...even while we are still intimately connected to it.

It's a strange and interesting phenomenon to grieve (and it is a real, deep, wrenching grief to leave the church--at least it was for me!) not only the church I loved but my identity which had completely defined me--while still remaining close to it, loving and interacting with people who believe us to be apostates and carry irreconcilable anger toward us. In the case of a divorce (which is how leaving the church felt to me), part of the healing is leaving and moving on, not staying connected to the person who broke your trust. Yet for us, "divorcing" the church has not included moving on. Yes, we've moved our identity and membership away from it. We are now identified with Jesus, not a church, and we worship at a place where we are learning the Bible and studying in deeper and more profound ways than before. But our "divorce" had to happen much as you described your situation, tdf--God has kept us on the "bleeding edge". We are still immersed in Adventist culture, business, and family. Not only that, God has brought us into ministry to those who are in that vulnerable place of decision, pain, and disillusionment.

At the same time, I can honestly say that our hearts have been healing, and God has not stopped revealing himself in new and deeper ways. Even though we love and work with Adventists on a daily basis, still I can say: the farther you move from Adventism in your own soul and identity, the more you realize that you can be connected physically yet disconnected spiritually and in identity at the same time. That ability to disconnect without losing the significant personal connections is the healing work of the Holy Spirit.

Praise God that He is our strength in weakness and that He gives us His identity!

Colleen

Pw
Registered user
Username: Pw

Post Number: 221
Registered: 6-2004
Posted on Wednesday, December 08, 2004 - 10:41 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I agree with colleen, even though we are no longer involved in Adventism, it's difficult to totally let go of it as well (no matter how long it's been). I must confess that the way I say things about the SDA here and other posts may sound harsh, but I'm really not trying to come off as cold hearted, but as one who is trying to expose their teachings. I'll never convince anyone from leaving the SDA, that's between them and God, but I sure won't be silent about it either. You can debate doctrine with them and get nowhere, but your life is the true testimony that will get people's attention.
Loneviking
Registered user
Username: Loneviking

Post Number: 292
Registered: 7-2000
Posted on Wednesday, December 08, 2004 - 1:27 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Actually, the Christians over at that other forum are holding up quite well! Most of them aren't buying the SDA arguments at all and are calling the SDA's out over their teachings. Pray for them, but the battle is going well so far!

Topics | Last Day | Last Week | Tree View | Search | Help/Instructions | Program Credits Administration