| Author | Message | ||
| 33ad Registered user Username: 33ad Post Number: 119 Registered: 10-2004 |
When I was still attending SDA church, I did a personal study on the 10 Commandments which I entitled " The law and the Christian". I came across my notes the other day and thought I would just share a few points with you. I do not know HTML, so I will capitalize words I had bolded or underlined in my notes. These are all Bible Texts and they seem to me to be able to speak for themselves. Exodus 34 10 Then the LORD said: "I am making a COVENANT with you. Before all your people I will do wonders never before done in any nation in all the world. The people you live among will see how awesome is the work that I, the LORD, will do for you." Exodus 34 27 Then the LORD said to Moses, "Write down these words, for in accordance with these words I have made a COVENANT with you and with Israel." 28 Moses was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights without eating bread or drinking water. And he wrote on the tablets the words of the COVENANT-the Ten Commandments. <Note> Deuteronomy 9 11 At the end of the forty days and forty nights, the LORD gave me the two stone tablets, the tablets of the COVENANT. Leviticus 26 14 " 'But if you will not listen to me and carry out all these commands, 15 and if you reject my decrees and abhor my laws and fail to carry out all my commands and so violate my COVENANT,.... Deuteronomy 5 The Ten Commandments 1 Moses summoned all Israel and said: Hear, O Israel, the decrees and laws I declare in your hearing today. Learn them and be sure to follow them. 2 The LORD our God made a COVENANT with us at Horeb. 3 It was NOT WITH OUR FATHERS that the LORD made this covenant, BUT WITH US, with all of us who are alive here today. 4 The LORD spoke to you face to face out of the fire on the mountain. 5 (At that time I stood between the LORD and you to declare to you the word of the LORD , because you were afraid of the fire and did not go up the mountain.) And he said: 6 "I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. 7 "You shall have no other gods before me. 8 "You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 9 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 10 but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments. 11 "You shall not misuse the name of the LORD your God, for the LORD will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name. 12 "Observe the Sabbath day by keeping it holy, as the LORD your God has commanded you. 13 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 14 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your ox, your donkey or any of your animals, nor the alien within your gates, so that your manservant and maidservant may rest, as you do. 15 REMEMBER THAT YOU WERE SLAVES IN EGYPT AND THAT THE LORD YOUR GOD BROUGHT YOU OUT OF THERE WITH A MIGHTY HAND AND AN OUTSTRECHED ARM. THEREFORE THE LORD YOUR GOD HAS COMMANDED YOU TO OBSERVE THE SABBATH DAY. [NOTE: The SDA's are out on a limb here because this does away with their "SEAL OF GOD"] 16 "Honor your father and your mother, as the LORD your God has commanded you, so that you may live long and that it may go well with you in the land the LORD your God is giving you. 17 "You shall not murder. 18 "You shall not commit adultery. 19 "You shall not steal. 20 "You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor. 21 "You shall not covet your neighbor's wife. You shall not set your desire on your neighbor's house or land, his manservant or maidservant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor." 22 These are the commandments the LORD proclaimed in a loud voice to your whole assembly there on the mountain from out of the fire, the cloud and the deep darkness; and he added nothing more. Then he wrote them on two stone tablets and gave them to me. [ Note: This was what was written on the tablets stored in the Ark of the Covenant, so there goes EGW's vision of seeing the 4th Commandment illuminated enshrining the "SEAL OF GOD"] There was a lot more that I had gathered, but I went to the New Testament and found these:- John 13:34 "A NEW COMMAND I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. John 13:35 By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another." Romans 13 8 Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for he who loves his fellowman has FULFILLED THE LAW. 9 The commandments, "Do not commit adultery," "Do not murder," "Do not steal," "Do not covet," and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: "Love your neighbor as yourself." 10 Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore LOVE IS THE FULFILLMENT OF THE LAW. 1 John 3 23 And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he COMMANDED us. Romans 13 9 The commandments, "Do not commit adultery," "Do not murder," "Do not steal," "Do not covet," and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: "Love your neighbor as yourself." What did I conclude from these? That the Law (10 commandments especially) were an Old Covenant with the Children of Israel who were brought out of Egypt and have no relevance to us now that Jesus has offered Himself for us. We serve Jesus out of Love for Him, and we have been given a New Commandment to love one another in the Lord. By doing so, we fulfill the New Law. I don't know if this clarifies anything for you my fellow posters, but it helped me to see things in a new light at that time in my life. God Bless Loren | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 103 Registered: 7-2004 |
Thank you for posting your study, Loren. Those are many of the same things I read when trying to figure out the place of the 10 Commandments post-cross. In addition, I wanted to point out two other texts that seem to fit with the discussion. Romans 5:12-14: "Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned--for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come." Those verses tell me that the Law didn't exist until Moses, and yet sin and death still reigned without the Law once Adam sinned. By using the word "nevertheless", the verse points out that one might think without the Law there couldn't have been sin and death, but there was. Since the ceremonial aspects of the Law have nothing to do with morality or sin, then Law must be referring to at least the 10 Commandments, and I believe the whole thing. SDA's love to say the 10 Commandments are eternal (no beginning and no end), because you can't have sin without transgression of the Law. Yet this verse clearly says the Law didn't exist between Adam and Moses. The other verses are in Galatians 3:17&18: "What I am saying is this: the Law, which came four hundred and thirty years later, does not invalidate a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to nullify the promise. for if the inheritance is based on law, it is no longer based on a promise; but God has granted it to Abraham by means of a promise." Again, the Law was not from the beginning, but started with Moses. It's still key to understand there is one Law, not separated between moral and ceremonial, which I think the previous verses I mentioned and the verses Loren posted, help to establish. | ||
| Hrobinsonw Registered user Username: Hrobinsonw Post Number: 94 Registered: 7-2004 |
33ad, we should talk. This has been my argument for a long time now. The discussions shouldn't even get to rhetoric. The only way that an outsider was to be included in the old covenant was if they wanted to, and they had to be circumsized and obsever the sabbath day. There isn't a single place in the Bible that says anything other than what you just said. Jesus is the Circumcision and Sabbath for everyone. Especially Gentiles. I have been trying to get people to understand that the purpose for most of the new testament is because Jews felt that gentiles should be kept under old covenant laws and they weren't. My own research has led me far and away. It is crazy that individuals don't realize that what you said is actually true. | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 1123 Registered: 11-2002 |
In the Lutheran the 10 Commandments are divided up into 10 Commandments. The diference tho is that the last one is divided into two commandments-the wife part is seperate from the rest of it. I have been attending the Lutheran church for so long now that when my SDA kin get onto me about my not observing the 4th commandment I think they mean the one that says, "honor your father and your mother" and we get to duking it out. I say to them, "I do too follow the 4th commandment. How don't I?" They say, "You do whatever you want on Sabbath." Then it hits me that we aren't even talking about the same 4th commandment. | ||
| Esther Registered user Username: Esther Post Number: 80 Registered: 5-2004 |
Thank you all for your thoughts on this. I too have found most of those verses to be very valuable in understanding the place of the law. It was nice to see them laid out again as a refresher! | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 104 Registered: 7-2004 |
As a former who has gained a lot of understanding about the New Covenant, that is a point that is frustrating to me in other churches. Why the emphasis on the 10 Commandments? Instead, shouldn't the emphasis be on living a Spirit-led life and deepening our relationship with Jesus? I'm sorry, but so many churches out there just don't have a clue. | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 105 Registered: 10-2004 |
I know, that frustrates me, too! Why do they refuse to obey the command in Galatians 4:30 to "cast out" the Ten Commandments? Jeremy | ||
| Pheeki Registered user Username: Pheeki Post Number: 424 Registered: 1-2003 |
I think it goes back to the RCC's emphasis on the "10". I think it is a leftover from them. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 950 Registered: 12-2003 |
Thanks, Loren, for sharing those texts with us. Pheeki, I tend to agree with you. I suspect the "10" in Christendom is a cling-on from the centuries of RCC donimation of the church. Even more to the point today, though, I believe that works religion is the natural state of humanity. It is the default position for natural man. Even among Christians there is still the human attempt to be sure all professing members are living "right". The only way one can control right and wrong in another is to establish laws--those, then, give people a basis for "judging" themsleves and others. I believe that even most Christians are afraid of the "free fall" of surrendering everything--even control over their own lives and the lives of others--to Jesus. That kind of ultimate surrender means we don't manage everything ourselves. We allow the Holy Spirit to teach us to submit and to love and to give up and to embrace--you get the idea. Hanging onto the law somehow justifies one's control and judgment over right and wrong not only in oneself but in others. The law appeals to the natural man. Living by the spirit requires an act of courage and faith. Colleen | ||
| Vchowdhury1 Registered user Username: Vchowdhury1 Post Number: 77 Registered: 7-2004 |
As God began to give Moses the 10 commandments, please note that the Lord said, "I am the Lord thy God who has brought you out of the land of Egypt". So therefore, in my understanding, it seems that these 10 commandments of the old law were made only for the people that he has "brought out of the land of Egypt" which were the Jews who were following Moses "out of the land of Egypt". Notice God did not say "I am the Lord your God, so this law is for the entire world, forever". Also, if the 10 commandments were meant for the whole world, why did God just give them to the Jews at that time, and not the rest of the world? Just a thought  | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 107 Registered: 10-2004 |
That is exactly right, Valerie. God only gave the Ten Commandments to the Jews! And the Sabbath commandment says (Deuteronomy 5:14-15 KJV): "But the seventh day [is] the sabbath of the LORD thy God: [in it] thou shalt not do any work, thou," I am not a Jew. "nor thy son, nor thy daughter," I am not the son or the daughter of a Jew. "nor thy manservant, nor thy maidservant," I am not the manservant or the maidservant of a Jew. "nor thine ox, nor thine ass, nor any of thy cattle," I am not an ox, ass, or cattle of a Jew. ;-) "nor thy stranger that [is] within thy gates; that thy manservant and thy maidservant may rest as well as thou." I am not a stranger within the gates of a Jew. So, I am not included in the Sabbath commandment! "And remember that thou wast a servant in the land of Egypt, and [that] the LORD thy God brought thee out thence through a mighty hand and by a stretched out arm:" My ancestors were not servants in the land of Egypt, they were in another part of the world! "therefore the LORD thy God commanded thee to keep the sabbath day." Well, that's why, that's to who, and that's when He commanded the Sabbath! SDAs don't seem to "get" the fact that we are Gentiles and not Jews! Jeremy | ||
| 33ad Registered user Username: 33ad Post Number: 121 Registered: 10-2004 |
The SDA's kept us well away from Deut 5. It's their 'Achilles Heel' Loren | ||
| Dd Registered user Username: Dd Post Number: 216 Registered: 7-2004 |
Sheryl, Now that I am out and about in the non-SDA Christian world...it bothers me when I hear them say the 10 commandments are relevant today. I have one friend whose husband is a vet. He will not work on Sunday - all day - the kids do not watch TV, listen to radio, read only spiritual books... sound familiar? I said to her one day that if it was so important to live with the 10 commandments, she was going to church on the "wrong day" - that when God gave the 10 commandments He meant for His people to keep the seventh-day holy. She said she had never thought it through that way...but came back to me later (probably after talking with her husband) and gave me a mixed New Covanent speech. Interesting... | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 956 Registered: 12-2003 |
Dd, I've heard arguments like that..so frustrating! I believe the reason Adventists refuse to take seriously the fact that the commandments weren't for the Gentiles is that one of SDAs core beliefs is the Adventists are "Spiritual Israel". Israel has lost their blessing from God, but the Adventists have picked up where they left off. Hence, the blessings and the expectations for Adventists are what Israel formerly "owned". Now, what they do about the rest of the law under these cirucmstances, I can't tell you. I just know that the Gentile argument never impressed me AT ALL because I knew we were spiritual Israel! In addition, I was also taught the (really bad) hermeneutic that if God promised something to one person in the Bible, that promise was for everyone. Therefore, Jew and Gentile were moot points. God's commands were for PEOPLE, not Jews--especially after Jesus was here. It's all very crazy-making--but I believe those kinds of convoluted rationalizations are the reasons Adventists can blink at the "not for Gentiles" argument. Colleen | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 108 Registered: 10-2004 |
But then who was "Israel" before 1844? Hmmm... Jeremy | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 56 Registered: 7-2004 |
It is my belief that Ellen and company wanted to lay claim to all of the promises of God so they called "The Church" Spiritual Israel, and then after 1844, according to them, the stream had narrowed down to the SDA Church. They were under the impression that Literal Israel was finished and would never resurface. We who are living now know that that is simply not true. There are still promises made by God that apply to Literal Israel, and promises made by God that apply to The Church. The SDA's are still living with the false assumptions made by Ellen and her cronies. | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 580 Registered: 7-2003 |
Jeremy, B goes running to Paul saying we are "spiritual Israel" to say we are the new Jews to whom the law is intended. It is the only thing he hears. When you point out that scripture says there is neither jew nor greek, he ignores it. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 962 Registered: 12-2003 |
Great point, Belvalew. Melissa, it's good to see you here--how are you doing? Colleen | ||
| Tracey Registered user Username: Tracey Post Number: 73 Registered: 9-2004 |
I couldn't understand why when the rabbi showed him the scriptures about sabbath being for jews, that it didn't impact him. Colleen helped explain it, and although, I don't think C's church taught quite that way, I think that idea was still perpetuated and I think it must be how he thinks.. I am soo sick from this stuff. It's nearing the end of the year, and I have to find courage to break it off if he doesn't leave the church. | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 583 Registered: 7-2003 |
Tracey, I"m thinking of you. Been there....... I can't count the number of times I told B it wasn't going to work and he should move on.... He always knew that wasn't what I really wanted, but I wish he would have listened anyway, |
