| Author | Message | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 246 Registered: 4-2000 |
I showed excerpts of the video, "THE SPIRIT BEHIND THE CHURCH" to my Sunday School class a couple of years ago as a part of my presentation exposing the myths of Seventh-day Adventism. It clearly relates the real truth about the SDA "truth." Dennis J. Fischer | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 1180 Registered: 11-2002 |
WOW! This is one heavy-duty trippy conversation. Colleen, Chris and Dennis, I think you are different people in my relatives conversations because I remember hearing all those sorts of things. I remember even as a young child when the grown-ups would start in on if Rev. Graham was saved or not because he wasn't preaching the Sabbath I'd feel very uncomfortable and even at a pre-teen age I thought my kin were talking devil talk because the Bible said not to judge and I'd leave the room. Even when I was a young child, I remember it profoundly in the 5th grade at age 11, I decided when I grew up I would have nothing to do with my parents religion. The ironic part is though that I'd had religious liberty preached to me at home and at school and at church and I honestly understood that to mean that the ones who loved me most wanted me to practice religious liberty for me. It never dawned on me until maybe 20 years ago that when SDA's use the term "religious liberty" they only mean it in reference to SDA's getting special treetment from the government or their employeers so they don't have to show up for work during the Sabbath hours. Silly me! I honestly thought they wanted me to practice religious freedom! But, back to Rev. Graham, he is truly an amazing man. My SDA kin love watching him. Yet, they feel so sorry for him in that with his Bible knowledge he must know the truth of the Sabbath and has thus willingly truned his back on this saving truth. They are warped, brainwashed spiritually sick people and I'm fed up with them and pretty much just leave them alone and when any discussion about anything religious, Christian or SDA (even if it's just a reference to Maranartha or something) I just leave the room. | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 478 Registered: 7-2003 |
I used to apply the following verse to Billy Graham and others: 20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them. Isaiah 8:20 (KJV) At that time, I understood this to mean that if someone wasn't preaching the Law, particularly Sabbath observance, than we could be assured that they had nothing of value to say and could be ignored. Since Billy Graham did not have the Sabbath truth he was not speaking according to the word of the Law and therefore he had no light in him and should be avoided. Of course, if I had ever bothered to read the verse immediately proceeding this one (v.19) I could have seen that the context has to do with those who were encouraging Israelites to consult mediums and spirits of the dead (an act that was forbidden by the Mosaic Law and is also forbidden by NT writers). The verse, indeed the entire passage, has nothing at all to do with Sabbath observance or any other pet SDA doctrine. Sigh.....if only I had read my Bible just a little. Chris | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 479 Registered: 7-2003 |
In my last post I actually left out a very important part of how I used to interpret Is. 8:20. I also interpreted the word "testimony" to be a reference to "The Testimonies" as in the writings of EGW (I realized this makes no sense in the context of something Isaiah would be saying, but I understood it this way and had had it taught to me this way). So then, I believed this text was saying that if someone didn't teach both Sabbath observance (Law) and EGW's writings (testimony) as being fully inspired and fully authoritative, then they were of darkness and their message should be shunned. In short, I never believed that evangelical Christians had anything of value to say, rather I saw them as the enemy and believed they were engaged in leading people into darkness. This would include Billy Graham. I didn't necessarily think that they were intentionally or maliciously leading people into Babylon. I just thought they had been badly deluded by the Devil to the point that they couldn't understand the most basic truths in the Bible. I was arrogant and blind beyound all belief. Today I pray for the grace to admit there are many things I don't know, the strength to change when I discover the errors in my thinking, and the humility to know that this will probably have to happen a lot between now and the next life. Chris | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 1036 Registered: 12-2003 |
Chris, thanks for telling us your experience. I so relate to they way you used to read the Bible and the way you understood evangelical Christians. I also believed they really had nothing to say to me, and I did believe they were leading people into darkness. I pray that God will continue to remove arrogance and pride from me and will help me to see, know, and love as He does. Colleen | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 158 Registered: 10-2004 |
Chris, I also heard that growing up, about Isaiah 8:20 talking about EGW's writings! It would even be misquoted as, "To the Law and to the Testimonies..."! Amazing. Jeremy | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 799 Registered: 3-2004 |
I can identify with everything each of you have said. B Graham and other preachers did not know "ALL " the truth. One thing that changed that for me, before I gave up the SDA church was going to the Crystal Cathedral in Anaheim for their Christmas program. It was so Christ centered and so amazing and beautiful, I thanked God for it. Like Colleen, I still get arrogant and prideful and ask God to take it from me. But at least now i recognize it. I thank God for that. He is so awesome. Diana | ||
| Bb Registered user Username: Bb Post Number: 41 Registered: 7-2004 |
My dear SDA mother really enjoys watching Billy Graham, but of course with reservation. He really stays away from doctrine and just preaches the gospel. But she always watches him with I believe a bit of sadness and puzzlement, because in her heart she believes that he is going to burn one day for rejecting the "Sabbath". I think she told me once that EGW or somewhere she read that if a person is a minister and is preaching the wrong thing, he will burn "longer" than the regular person. Anyway, she also told me that Billy Graham had a man working for him who became an SDA. His name is like "Kineckle" or something like that. He apparently tried to show him the "light" and he just didn't "see" it. This man's wife apparently didn't like his new religion and tried to divorce him but he wouldn't do that, so she has made his life a living hell. He is or was in poor health and she mistreated him. Has anyone else heard this story? My mom heard this man talk and seems to remember this story very well. I just don't know if I have all the facts right. | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 1183 Registered: 11-2002 |
Once again our similiar stories and experiences totally amaze me. Dd, my elderly mom does the exact same thing as your mother. I honestly believe if it wasn't for the fear of attending a Sunday church many of our SDA loved ones, especially the elderly would be so blessed and more at peace in their hearts if they were atending a Cristian church rather than the SDA. It's got such a hold ob them. I thinkit's sad. | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 806 Registered: 3-2004 |
I guess my Mom was not a strict SDA. She let us dance at family parties and went to weddings & funerals in the Catholic church. The majority of her relatives are Catholic. When her first cousin, who is a Catholic priest, came to CA in 1996 to a family reunion, the reunion committee arranged for him to give the Mass at the local Catholic church. All of Mom's kids went to see and hear Uncle Albert. We went out of respect for him and because we love him. I am so glad I did show him that we love him. So going to a "Sunday" keeping church was no problem. It almost became a problem when I decided not to rejoin the SDAs earlier this year. Satan was working hard on scaring me. God helped me through it as I saw that I worship God every day and can rest in Him every day. God you are awesome. Diana | ||
| Tdf Registered user Username: Tdf Post Number: 18 Registered: 11-2004 |
When I was a teen, there were several divorces in the SDA church where my family attended and I remember hearing about a meeting where the pastor proposed to bring in a non-SDA speaker to give a series on Saturday evenings about building strong marriages. The proposal did not include Saturday morning sermons because a non-SDA wasn't allowed to stand in the pulpit. Well, apparently, there was a big fight over the whole thing and the pastor took a lot of heat for even suggesting that a non-Adventist provide a series at an Adventists church. What a shame--that church could have really benefitted from it. It seems that SDAs are very closed minded to anyone or anything that does not come from the SDA church. | ||
| Goldenbear Registered user Username: Goldenbear Post Number: 3 Registered: 12-2004 |
There is an individual we were talking with about the wonderful gospel books we had been reading (Phil Yancey, Mark Buchanan). They were amazed that we were reading books not published by the SDA presses. We told them that they really brought us closer to Jesus and encouraged them to read them. The thing that really seemed to keep them from doing that was summarized in a question they asked...If they have an understanding of the Gospel, why don't they know about the Sabbath? Where do you go from there? If you only look at the world through sunglasses it always looks dark. If everything is shaded about the Sabbath, I believe many people don't get to see the real Jesus! | ||
| Tracey Registered user Username: Tracey Post Number: 108 Registered: 9-2004 |
Has anyone been on SDAoutreach.org? I just listened to a wonderful teaching on the gospel and the covenants by J. mark Martin. Available to listen online.. I think that's gonna be our Friday night fun time tomorrow! : ) I'll see what he thinks.. I tell you, I am doing what I can to help C, but listening to SDA tapes and stuff, God has really equipped people like you all to really bring people to a place of understanding. These ministries are soooooooo important. For the first time today,I am looking at the rest of this website. It has great studies on here! How nice that God has all the hard work prepared for me to present! : ) I pretty much just need to study. Soo grateful for this ministry and other SDAoutreach ministries! Tracey | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 1058 Registered: 12-2003 |
Tracey, Mark Martin is a wonderful preacher. His tapes and materials were instrumental in the journeys of several of us. I remember listening to his tape series on evangelical Adventism sometime during my "discovery phase", and they were compelling and even overwhelming. I have a friend for whom Mark Martin's tapes were the "final nail in the coffin," so to speak, for her knowing she needed to leave Adventism. She realized that the Sabbath was fulfilled in Jesus, and she was suddenly freed to leave. She eventually earned a master of theology degree at Fuller Seminary. Praying for you, Tracey! Colleen | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 1203 Registered: 11-2002 |
Goldenbear, Yes, I have had the exact same experience. Soon after the terrorist attacks on 09-11-01 I bought a very gosple centered book written by the daughter of Billy Graham. My mom saw me reading it and asked about the book I was reading. I showed it to her and even offered to share it with her. What I got back was the reply that she (the author of the book) wasn't a Sabbath-keeper, hence there was no truth in her. I replyed to my mom that she watches Robert Schuller every Sunday morning on t.v. and she watches the old reruns of Billy Graham. Then I was told that is o.k. because she's not spending money promoting the false ministry of a Sunday-keeper, that Robert Schuller and Billy Graham are on t.v. anyway so it's not costing her anything but by me actually purchasing that book I was promoting with my money Sunday-keeping. Anyway, I thought it was really far-out. | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 817 Registered: 3-2004 |
Goldenbear, It is not just looking at the world with sunglasses on, it is looking at the Bible with an EGW filter. At least that was the way it was for me. When God showed me she was a false prophet and I gave her up, I was able to see things I had seen in the Bible, growing up in SDA schools and I saw how God wants me to love him and accept Jesus. The book of John is full of how much God loves us and I never saw it until I gave up EGW. Just thought I would give my thoughts on the subject. God, with the Holy Spirit, has taught me so much and continues to teach me. He is awesome. Diana | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 167 Registered: 10-2004 |
Yes Tracey, we should have told you about that web site and the audio resources!  Pastor Mark has some great sermons on there--listen to them all as you get the chance! Also, he has a great study on the Law and the Covenants in written form on sdaoutreach.org here: http://www.sdaoutreach.org/law-study.cfm Also, on the order form at that web site is a greak book called "Sabbatarian Concordance & Commentary" compiled by Gerald Wright, which addresses all the texts used by Sabbatarians. Pastor Mark's sermon "Food Laws and the Sabbath" (also available to listen to at that audio page) and that Gospel and the Covenants message really helped me and my family to actually give up the Sabbath doctrine. They helped finally put us "over the edge" with giving up the Sabbath doctrine, sort of like what Colleen was saying. Jeremy | ||
| Goldenbear Registered user Username: Goldenbear Post Number: 4 Registered: 12-2004 |
Diana I find that having since let go of the EGW filter, I have begun looking at the New Testament in a whole new light. In fact another former Adventist and I were talking about this same thing. We seem to not have spent much time actually studying the New Testament. Now as I read my bible and study so much of the Gospels, Pauls Epistles etc are exciting to me and filled with grace-filled messages. It is like it is a whole new book. Unfortunately, I think Bible classes were focused only on what Ellen interpreted the scriptures to say in the NT, and not at the gospel. My wife and I are constantly amazed that when talking to Adventist about the Bible they immediately turn to the EGW scriptural index. | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 168 Registered: 10-2004 |
Tracey, By the way, I thought I should mention that "Food Laws and the Sabbath" is absolutely hilarious for parts of the first half--about food, etc. "C" may actually enjoy listening to it, for the humor if nothing else! Jeremy | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 626 Registered: 7-2003 |
Tracey, I would be guarded on how serious C is about the food thing. B does not take ANY humor about food. Mark Lowry does several skits about food and I've never seen such righteous indignation as when poking fun at food. Some other Christian comedians have had skits involving food and he sits there stoned faced like they are ridiculing him personally. If it were B, and I was considering it, I'd listen first. If it were too "offensive" to B's taste, he wouldn't get a single point just fuming over the insults. One of those can't see the forest through the trees things....of course, that may just be one of B's "features" and not apply to you at all. C sounds far more open usually. |
