| Author | Message | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 1200 Registered: 11-2002 |
I have been noticing in both the SDA magazines as well in the sermons at the SDA church is really making a big issue about Adventists losing their religious rights and freedoms. I even read some of this on a SDA website recently. I want to know if they're crying wolf or if the SDA's really are being singled out for persucuation. Apparently there is a bill up in the House that says that an employer will have to by law give an employee off time that the employee believes is holy time. Sadly, this bill would even include small business in which giving the employee off these days could cause great hardship to the employer. This bill would also include making the employer give the days off to an employee who was willing to work anytime at all and then during the employment changed her religion and now demands those days off. The example in the latest Review is about a lady who worked many years for certain employer and then she converted to SDA and now demands Saturdays off even though she has always before this been willing to work on Saturdays. I recently attended the local SDA church and the minister had his entire sermon on how SDA's are being singled out for religious discrimination. He urged everyone to write to their representives to vote for the bill mandating that employers have to give Saturdaysİoff to SDA's. Actually the bill says time the employee believesis holy. What do yu all think of this? Back when I was attending the Seventh Day Baptist church weekly my boss would occassionally ask me to work on Saturdays. I always did. Jesus gave the example of the cow falling into the pit on the Sabbath. After I listened to the SDA preacher for over an hour about this I asked him on the way out of the church if my employer was SDA and I wanted Easter Sunday off should my SDA employer then be forced to give me the day off even if it would cause him hardship. The minister said that question wouldn't apply to a Sunday- keeper because Sunday-keepers don't think of Sundaysİas holy time or even Easter Sunday as SDA's think of Sabbath as holy time. So once again I tried to get stright answer from him and I asked him if my employer was SDA should he be forced by law to let me leave early on Good Friday because the church has a very solom service on Good Friday afternoon. He told me no the SDA employer should not have to let me off on Good Friday to attend church because no Sunday-keeper thinks of Good Friday as holy as a SDA thinks of Sabbath as holy. Is the SDA church making a mountain out of a molehill or is SDA's really being unrentlessly singled out here in the USA for religious persucation? Or, could the magazine authors and ministers making it seem bigger than it is to show their faithful that the SDA version of Sabbath-keepers being persucated is actually coming to pass, SDA prophecy being fullfilled? | ||
| Goldenbear Registered user Username: Goldenbear Post Number: 2 Registered: 12-2004 |
Religeous Liberty is another area that SDA's exploit to gather funds and create urgency about "finishing the work". I find it particularly interesting that many adventist really don't want to discuss the shrinking liberties of the nation in order to "feel safe". When you point out that perhaps the great persecution that is coming is for all Christians, they just don't see it because they are still locked into the Sabbath as the mark of the beast scenario. I have even had members tell me, after hearing my concern over shrinking liberties facing americans and particularly christians, that "we know the way things were happening" and didn't need to worry about how they would get there. I digress though, Adventist are not that much different that the media elite, in that they have an end in mind and with that they view everything as to how they think events will lead to their preconceived (read egw-directed) ideas. | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 1204 Registered: 11-2002 |
I would like to add some more to this topic. The SDA church likes to promote its idea of "seperation of church and state" while at the same time saying that it is promoting religious freedom. Frankly, I think the above legistation in no way infringes on religious liberty because we have in this country the right to find another job. Our government does not place us in our jobs and all I can see the above legistation doing is taking away the rights of employers. And, you small business owners out there I would like your opinion on this. At the same time the SDA church is promoting a law to force business owvers to let them off from work on Saturdays the church also tells its members it is formost in promoting religious freedom and seperation of church and state. I don't understand how the church can say its promoting seperation of church and state and at the same time promotig a law mandating employers let Adventists off work on Saturdays. Isn't that getting the government (state) invoved in legislating religious preference? Now, on to another topic along this same topic. When I was a kid the SDA church had a program called SAWS. I believe SAWS has been renamed ADRA. I understand the SDA church is very against private religious schools to get voucher money so kids can attend those schools. From what I understnd the SDA folks have stated that SDA schools will not accept school voucher money. Yet, I believe ADRA gets federal money, quite a lot from what I recently read. And, the students at the SDA colleges and unversities get the PELL Grants, all the other grants and federal insured low-interest student loans and the GI Bill money. A long time ago when my cousin got out of the army he said he would be attending a SDA college. He said he would be attending with his GI Bill money. I kept tellig him he couldn't do that because the SDA people said they don't take taxpayrs money for their schools. Well, he proved me wrong. He got his GI Bill money to attend a SDA college. Also, I understand that LLU and maybe even other schools take governmant research grant money. If all this is true then it just seems like the SDA's want the mony for them but they don't want any other religious school or instituion to get any. Also, in the SDA sermon that I recently sat through the minister actually came out and said in the United States at this time the only orgaizations that are really putting forth much effort in promoting religious freedom and seperation of church and state are the SDA church, Americans United (That Berry Lind guy I see on t.v. sometimes, his group) and the ACLU. I had wished at the time that I'd had a tape recorder. The entire sermon was this stuff. Not one mention in the pastors entire talk about anything having to do with Christianity or Jesus, grace, forgiveness, repentence or anything else Bibical. | ||
| Vchowdhury1 Registered user Username: Vchowdhury1 Post Number: 95 Registered: 7-2004 |
Good Topic Susan. This reminds me of a situation that happened in my mom's sda church recently (my mom and dad are still staunch sda). There is a woman in their sda congregation that applied to become a flight attendant for one of the major airlines. They specifically asked her on her application and at the job interview if she was she "flexible" as far as work hours and work days are concerned. She stated that she was flexible. After she was hired, they scheduled her to work on some Saturdays and Friday nights. After being on the job a couple of months, she then decides to raise a big "stink" about being scheduled on Saturdays, and she thinks that she should be able to have Friday nights and Saturdays off because of her religious affiliations and bla bla bla. There was an article in the Review and Herald about her case as well as one other religious magazine (which the name escapes me right now). Anyway to make a long story short, she hires an attorney, threatens to suit the employer over "religious liberty discrimination" and thus the employer was forced to give her Friday nights and Saturdays off. Oh, and her sda congregation was full of rah rah's for this woman and her so-called "case" against a descriminating employer. What kind of "mess" is this? First of all it was this womans LIE about being "flexible" that got her hired in the first place. She deliberately conned her employer by stating that she would be available on a flexible schedule when she really was not willing to do so! To me the word flexible means that you are willing to work any days, hours, etc. She and her attorney claimed that flexible does not necessarily mean having to violate what she sees as religious principle like Holy days off! To me thats pure "BS" (excuse my French--but this makes my blood boil). Number one, if you have certain principles that you want to adhere to, it is only fair that you make your potential employer aware of them at the time of the interview. Even on the application for certain jobs, there is a section that states what hours you can and/or cannot work. She should have got this straight with her employer from the beginning and not LIED just to get the job, then want to suit! I think this is totally unfair and very deceptive. Also, it is manipulation. The employer was "swindled" and "conned" by this employee. Aren't these the things that the apostle Paul tells us to stay away from? To me this represents what a warped since of ethics some (not all) sda's have when it comes to their idea of the "sabbath". What ever happened to "Thou shalt not bear false witness". I guess that commandment doesn't count for them as much as the fourth commandment. --Valerie | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 120 Registered: 7-2004 |
I'm sure not all SDA's behave the way this woman flight attendant did. During all my years as an SDA (before leaving a few months ago), every time I was looking for employment, I always proactively brought the issue up before I was even hired. It was always uncomfortable and embarrassing for me, but I felt obligated to make sure my potential employer was perfectly okay with "Sabbath issues" before hiring me. I thought that was standard procedure if you're an SDA. The funny thing is, since I left the SDA church, I have wondered if I'm just as obligated to now tell my employer that I am no longer an SDA! I felt for the past several weeks that it was a lie to let him continue to think he could never bother me on the Sabbath. Finally last weekend, a situation came up where he really needed some information that I knew he would prefer not to have to wait for, and it was the end of the day Friday. I offered to fax it to him Saturday morning. He said, "but that's you Sabbath!" I told him, not anymore, and gave a brief explanation. At least I have always felt more better about being in the open with things. | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 121 Registered: 7-2004 |
Wow! That's unusual for me to mess up the grammar so badly! In the last sentence, I had meant to change it from "more comfortable" to "better about", and I forgot to remove the word "more"! Sorry! | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 1059 Registered: 12-2003 |
Ha! I got a grin out of your "more better", Raven! I applaud your up-frontness with your employer, both as an SDA and now as a "not SDA". It really does feel better to be open. Colleen | ||
| Tracey Registered user Username: Tracey Post Number: 109 Registered: 9-2004 |
Question: yes, another one.. : ) Colleen, Do you find it more better : P to bring up and discredit EGW or to bring up the New covenant teachings? I ask b/c I finally clicked on those awesome links on our HOme page,and there are good messages about both. And I am wondering based on your experience and knowledge, which would be more effective for an SDA? Fyi, really bad argument last night... C says " What do you care what EGW says, I don't!" I said b/c I care about youand what you are associated with. He says, " What do you worry so much about me for?" basically saying to stop concerning myself with him and then subsequently, I will stop learning about EGW and causing so much trouble.. What a stupid argument--- Who would dare say, Why do you worry so much for me == as an argument to stop bringing up EGW. I told him to quit defending her if he doesn't care about her. Tonight, I am planning on hitting him on the back of the head so he'll forget everything. Then I will gleefully begin the New Testament : ) | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 122 Registered: 7-2004 |
Here's my two cents worth...although Colleen will probably have much better advice! For me, I needed to see the falseness of EGW before I could look at anything else. However, if C already thinks he doesn't care about EGW, and especially since he seems to have had his fill of discussions about her, it might be worthwhile to look at the New Covenant teachings with him. If that irritates him as much as the EGW discussions, maybe it's time to let things lie low for now, while continuing to pray for him. | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 627 Registered: 7-2003 |
B also insists all SDA doctrines are firmly in the Bible alone and though it has seemed to unsettle him about some of the things I've brought up about EGW, he goes running to some other "truth" they have no one else does and that is all he needs. He supposedly started keeping count on how much she was mentioned, but I'm sure that means her very name, not merely references to her writings, etc. From my experience, depending upon how firmly he relies on EGW, that may not be something that will have much impact. For B, it is truly the Sabbath and the state of the dead. Those are two issues he is adamant about and he buys all of it about being a sin to worship on Sunday, etc. I don't think you're going to be able to convince him personally. He has to be open to it. I know how much you want to show him. But if he's not open to it, he will find ways to defend it. You would be amazed what B justifies. Some of it is pride, too. Maybe you should worry more about sharing scripture and less about attacking their peculiarities at this juncture. Let the word of God do the work of God??? | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 1062 Registered: 12-2003 |
Tracey, what I find is that discussions with Adventists don't always follow a pattern. If one is questioning, discussing EGW is important, because almost without exception, Adventists have rationalized her role and don't see her as an "issue". In general, most Adventists' awakenings begin with discovering the simple gospel: the fact that salvation is by faith PLUS NOTHING--not even keeping the Sabbath. Conversely (here's where most Adventist have a hiccup and need to see the gospel clearly), salvation cannot be lost because one turns away from the Sabbath. The gospel is good news because EVERYTHING we need to be saved has been accomplished by Jesus. Period. Adventists believe once they know about the "Sabbath truth", they are responsible for it and must follow it as an act of loyalty to God. It's not for salvation, they'll say loudly. Yet privately they would never dare to give it up because they believe that act could lose them their salvation. In the case of a person like C, however--it sounds as if he seems to understand the gospel. Yet it also sounds as if he doesn't want to think deeply about the implications of EGW. I'll be really honest, Tracey--I don't know what can be done in a case like this. Once an Adventist really learns the truth about the gospel, he has to decide whether or not he will continue to pursue its truth as it applies to his life. If he is asking questions about how the Sabbath fits into the gospel, then he's open to the New Covenant. If he really can't "go there", if he really isn't pursuing the questions on his own, then he's probably not really wanting to think about it. There's nothing anyone can say to an ADventist that will convince them of the truth unless they really want to know it. They may sound open and willing, but if they resist understanding Jesus' total fulfillment of the law, if they resist understanding the truth about EGW, then nothing we can say can change them. It truly requires a miracle of the Holy Spirit. I know that until I really understood the depth of EGW's deception and falseness, I could NOT see the reason I had to deal with my Adventism seriously. It was discovering the truth about EGW that caused me to be willing to consider leaving Adventism behind. At the same time, my heart was prepared for the truth about EGW by having studied the Bible while praying to know the truth. It was the gospel that prepared me to "get" the real problem with Ellen. Tracey, I can't tell you what to do or how to do it. Only God knows that. But I want to caution you again that you really can't hope to convince C. If he doesn't want to know the truth on his own, you can't make it happen. You really need to be willing to give C to God--whatever that may mean. I'm praying for you and for him. Colleen | ||
| Vchowdhury1 Registered user Username: Vchowdhury1 Post Number: 96 Registered: 7-2004 |
Hi Raven, I am aware that all sda's do not behave like that woman in my last post. In fact, when I was still in the sda church, when I would apply for a job, I would always tell my potential employer at the interview that I could not work Saturdays and Friday evenings. Then it would be up to the employer whether to hire me on this basis or not. And if the employer did decide to hire me after I already informed them of the "Sabbath" issue, it WOULD have been religious descrimination if the employer had changed their mind and started giving me problems regarding working on the "Sabbath" after I had already been hired. And, I'm sure a lot of sda's operate this way instead of the deceptive way the woman in my last post went about it. What I was saying is that the members of the church that this woman attended failed to see that this woman was deceptive and "conned" the person that hired her. All they could see was the "sabbath" issue, but failed to see that this woman had actually "swindled" her employer. This fact, sadly, didn't seem to be an issue for her church. | ||
| Tracey Registered user Username: Tracey Post Number: 113 Registered: 9-2004 |
I really don't know where I'd be without this forum for discussion. The insight and knowledge, experiences etc. give me strength to keep fighting for his soul and mind, and you all give me hope that the Lord is a rewarder of those that diligently seek Him. I am printing this and reviewing it and thinking on it. You all just don't understand, words can't explain the gold in your possession through your experiences. They are invaluable, I truly mean that. I am so grateful for your understanding this stuff and how the mind works and the habits of SDAs.. all of it. It reminds me of the scripture that says "Silver and Gold, have I not, but such as I have, I give to you." What you all have been through, know and share with me, has inspired me and changed my life and even my walk with the Lord. I know there's a beautiful crown waiting for you and I will know you when I see each of you in heaven. Thank you! | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 169 Registered: 10-2004 |
Tracey, perhaps you could show him EGW's huge claims for herself. No one can dismiss her as "not a prophet" or as a prophet with "mistakes" if you just look at what she claimed about her own writings! C needs to understand that she is either a true prophet inspired by God or a false prophet. When you just see what she herself claimed, you can't just say that she can have a "mixed bag of truth and error" or that she was just a "good Christian writer." Maybe you should ask C what he specifically thinks EGW was. I could provide you with lots of quotes where EGW makes bold claims about her writings, saying they're either from God or the devil, etc. The sad thing is that even the SDAs who say they "don't care" about EGW are still under her hold, and are influenced by her greatly, even if they don't realize it! C has to realize that EGW is a false prophet. Jeremy | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 68 Registered: 8-2004 |
Tracy, just to add my tu'pence worth: Live the Gospel - the incongruities will crop up on their own, and, while you need to have an answer as and if he questions, pressing the issue is probably not a good ides. Present, and live in, the New Covenant. And do leave him (and yourself) squarely in God's hands. No one can believe for another! May the love of God shine brightly in your heart! helovesme2 | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 1205 Registered: 11-2002 |
Raven, You are truly an amazing person. That is real integrety what you did telling your employer how you have changed. Yes, Valerie, I read that same story about the flight attendant in the SDA magazine. From what understand the lady is claiming to not have understood the word "flexable". Oh, give me a break! Melissa, I just hope you are holding up o.k. and have friends and family and church associates that you can be with. It sounds like a never-ending ordeal with B. Jeremy (and others) the Luther movie is now available at Blockbuster. He was a Blockbuster kind of guy so I'd suggest everyone see the movie. | ||
| Goldenbear Registered user Username: Goldenbear Post Number: 5 Registered: 12-2004 |
We(my wife and I) live in a very small community and are just leaving the SDA church. When we first moved here two years ago, the church had a very interesting Bible study every other Friday night. While the moderator seemed to be a free thinker, we always seemed to get back to EGW. We have lobbied to use the bible only, but when the pastor shows up, he brings out his SDA Bible and starts reading ellenisms. This summer has been a watershed. Through reading of information on the internet, study in the bible, and the ministry of a brother in christ from the CMA church in town, we have had our eyes opened. My wife and I are now praising God for what he has done to bring us out of the bondage of Adventism. We have shared what we have learned with others in different areas of our state and the interest and freedom is starting to grow. Kind of a little "reformation". We have continued to go to the Bible study but last night was really the last straw for us. We have been reading through M. Vendens book on the Parables of Jesus (we have decided that another name would be "A Reinforcement of the 28 Fundementals" for the way it keeps hammering them). Last night was the parable of the New Wine. Believe it or not one person made the statement that in heaven everyone would be SDA because they believe that Jesus would come and that they would be worshiping on Sabbath. Well that led into a discussion on the unique view of the bible that sda's have. We were reminded about the remnant theory (they still believe the stuff about the Waldenses) and how there have always been keepers of the flame. The pastor then went on to tell us how there are three parts to salvation (Justification, Sanctification and Glorification) and this can only be understood in light of the Sanctuary Service. Others told us we needed to read Clifford Goldsteins Book about the Inve. Judg. "He studied it from the bible and wanted to either prove it or disprove it" and after studying it, he proved it! Wanted to say how in the whole universe of SDA'sm he seems to be the only one who understood it. My wife went on to point out that of course he was going to prove it, they wouldn't have published his book if he hadn't. Not only that but when you are getting a paycheck from the church, it kinda predisposes what your answer will be. I also felt, but didn't say, after Glacier View, unless you have another job in the offing, you don't voice opposition to the established view. I realize that I am venting and I may be way off the thought of the thread, but my conclusion is this...Why is it that Adventist want Religious Liberty everywhere except in their own church and doctrine? Kinda ironic. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 1066 Registered: 12-2003 |
Goldenbear, I have so much empathy for you and your wife. I am so happy about your new joy in Jesus and in the freedom of the gospel! I completely agree with your conclusions that filtered out from your Bible study. And you're right; the Adventist view of religious liberty is terribly ironic. Have you read Goldstein's book re: the IJ? I read it last winter because it was a direct response to Ratzlaff's Cultic Doctrine. I had a hard time forcing myself to read it because he was so cynical and convoluted. He did not prove the IJ at all, but he did reveal his disdain for Ratzlaff. It is the sort of book that only "proves" the IJ if one already believes it. For some reason Goldstein is a person I have felt convicted to pray for for quite a while. I include him in my prayer chain prayers every week. With prayers for you and your wife, Collen | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 72 Registered: 7-2004 |
Welcome, Goldenbear. Trust the Holy Spirit as He guides you into all truth. Now that the blinders are falling away you will find so much joy and hope when you open the scriptures. In the past I'm sure your efforts to read the scriptures have been about as frustrating as your Friday night study of The Sermon on the Mount (through an SDA viewpoint). Jesus has already paid the price for your salvation. That price is enough! He loves you more than you will ever be able to comprehend, and the only obligation you have to Him is to hold onto his promises for dear life all of the way into Eternity. All of us here on the Site look forward to hearing more from you and your wife. Many of us have made the same journey you are making now. We are here for you when you need us. Belva | ||
| Speakeasy Registered user Username: Speakeasy Post Number: 203 Registered: 9-2002 |
I don't really understand what is ment by "Religious Liberty" ? Do you mean, if you commit a sin then you ask for forgiveness and then you are okay? speakeasy |
