Archive through December 13, 2004 Log Out | Topics | Search
Moderators | Edit Profile

Former Adventist Fellowship Forum » ARCHIVED DISCUSSIONS 3 » The 10 Commandments were a Covenant with Old Israel » Archive through December 13, 2004 « Previous Next »

Author Message
Loneviking
Registered user
Username: Loneviking

Post Number: 295
Registered: 7-2000
Posted on Saturday, December 11, 2004 - 11:45 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Let me try to make this whole subject of Old C and New C a bit clearer using an analogy:

Lets say you go to Best Buy and find a T.V. that you really like. You put down some money and sign a contract that you will pay $200 month for one year (12 months) to buy the T.V.

Now, on the 13th month, are you going to send in another $200? I hope not! Why? Because the contract is fulfilled. Does the store have to send you notice of that? No! Why? Because the termination of the contract is evident from the terms...i.e. '12 months'.

Applying this analogy to the Old Covenant, the terms of the Old Covenant were completed in Christ. Gal. 3:19 specifically says that the Old C. continued until the 'promised seed should come'...which is Christ. All of the symbology of the Old C. was fulfilled in Christ. There is no need for a verse to say 'O.K., Christ is dead, the Old C. is over!'....although we do find such verses in Galatians and Hebrews.

Now, to carry the analogy futher, lets say that in the 13th month you decide that you want a newer model of T.V. You go back to Best Buy, trade in your old T.V., and sign another contract. This contract is also for $200 month, for 12 months. Well, is this contract just a continuation of the previous one? NO!

Why not? Well, some of the terms are the same---12 months, $200 month. But, the old contract had ended, so you can't modifiy it too become a new contract. Also, although the new contract is for a T.V.--it's for a different model of T.V. You have two seperate contracts with many of the same terms.

Same with the New Covenant. Many of the same terms exist---the Ten Commandments are given back in a greatly expanded form with the Sabbath being our completed rest in Christ. There are differences as well. We have the sacraments of Baptism and the Lords' supper. We have a buch of commands such as 'forsake not the assembly of yourselves together' and instructions in Timothy/Titus on qualifications for elders and deacons---to name just a few of the new commands that weren't in the Old Covenant.

Even more important though is that the parties to the covenant have changed. A covenant (contract) requires at least two parties too agree. In the Old Covenant, Ex. 24:3, the identity of the parties is God and the nation of Israel. 'All that the Lord has said we will do'.

But, the parties to the New Covenant are the Trinity! Hebrews 6:13 makes this clear. So, if the New Covenant is a contract between the Trinity----what does that make us? BENEFICIARIES!
Nothing that we do is going to cancel the covenant---which wasn't true for the Old Covenant.

Are you starting to get the idea that there is truly a New Covenant? :-)
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker

Post Number: 1069
Registered: 12-2003
Posted on Saturday, December 11, 2004 - 2:21 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Great explanations, Loneviking and Jeremy!

John, I say this with respect for your convictions, but the reasoning you are using is clearly identifiable as the evanglistic "arguments" SDA evangelists and preachers use when they are trying to convert Christians to Adventism. These arguments are almost a "formula" statement for evanglism. They sound convincing and have a few out-of context proof texts to support them, but they are not arguments found in the Bible. They are man-made arguments used to create an illusion of logic when in reality the Bible unveils a truth much more powerful and amazing than the stilted rationalizing of Adventism.

I'd like to challenge you to ask God to help you read the Bible without preset understandings. Ask God to reveal what He wants you to know, and remember: the New Testament is what unveils and explains the Old. Jesus was the full revelation of the Father; He was the "progressive revelation" that made the Old Testament understandable.

Colleen
Speakeasy
Registered user
Username: Speakeasy

Post Number: 204
Registered: 9-2002
Posted on Saturday, December 11, 2004 - 5:55 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I am not arguing. But if the commandments were given only to the Nation of Israel. Why does Paul call the law the Knowledge of sin. And Were there is no Law there is no sin? I don't understand?
speakeasy
Truthseeker2004
Registered user
Username: Truthseeker2004

Post Number: 3
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Saturday, December 11, 2004 - 6:35 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I have a different understanding of the old and new covenants...As far as I understand it..the difference between the old and new covenant is that the old covenant was an earthly priesthood and the sacrifice was of the blood of animals.....The new covenant is the blood of Christ and He is the new priesthood.....Daniel 9:27 says "Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate." While the latter part of this verse speaks of the destruction of the temple By Titus Vespasian in ad70, the first part of the verse gives us an example of the abolishment of the old covenant.Hebrews says " Hebrews 12:24 and to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel. The blood sacrifice is far greater than any animal sacrifice that could ever be offered..It is for all mankind...The blood of Christ cleanses us from all unrighteousness...I am not disputing the change from the old covenant into the new..I am just saying that the covenant deals with the change in sacrifice, it doesnt say anywhere in the bible that tied to this was the doing away of an old law and the making of a new one....Jesus did say however that "This is the first and great commandment, and the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets....These two commandments dont negate the moral law in any way, and the sabbath is entrenched in that law and cannot be removed as much as we would like to take it out of there....I would like some verses though that tie the end of animal sacrifice and the beginning of Christ's sacrifice once for all with the doing away with the law...If they are both part of the covenant then they should both be mentioned together in the same context...I havent been able to find anything yet but I am looking.Colossians 2:14 speaks of the blotting out of the handwriting of ordinances but there is not enough evidence to suggest that the writer was referring to the decalogue.
...Again..thanks for your replies.......John




Ric_b
Registered user
Username: Ric_b

Post Number: 98
Registered: 7-2004
Posted on Saturday, December 11, 2004 - 8:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

You ask for specificity in texts that you know well aren't there. OTOH, perhaps you would like to show the texts that define a distinct moral law that is distinguishable from a ceremonial law along with the elements of each of these laws. Much like your request, we both know that the texts that I requested do not exist in the format that I asked.

Instead of asking for what you know doesn't exist, perhaps you would prefer a discussion of the relevant combinations of passages and the reasons that many of us understand these passages the way that we do?
Dd
Registered user
Username: Dd

Post Number: 248
Registered: 7-2004
Posted on Sunday, December 12, 2004 - 6:47 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

John,
I think the NT is full of texts that show me that the Old Covenant no longer applies to me and that I live under the New Covenant the moment I accept Christ.

Galatians tells us in a nutshell what the New Covenant is - dying to self and living in Jesus (3:20). Read the whole book without any thoughts of Adventism. Really read it word for word then look at Hebrews. Chapters 7-10 are very specific that the Old Covenant is done away with.

7:18, 19 - the law (Old Covenant) is weak and useless - there is a BETTER HOPE (New Covenant) through which we draw near to God.

The problem was not the law itself. The probelm was that the law could not produce holiness, righteousness or goodness. All the law does is condemn us and point us to Christ - The BETTER HOPE.

Since the first covenant was not faultless, God, in His goodness, sought an occasion for a second covenant (Hebrews 8:7). God called this His "New Covenant" and "HE HAS MADE THE FIRST OBSOLETE...whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear" (Hebrews 8:13)

Between verses 7 and 13 (as I quoted above), the writer of Hebrews listed out why the New is better than the Old: an inner inclination to obey God, a firm relationship with God, a knowledge of God, and forgiveness of sins.

Nowhere did the Old Testament claim that the blood of animals actually paid the price for sin. Living today under the Old Covenant is useful in teaching me the way of salvation but it does not pay the price for my sins and it does not truly clear my burdened conscience. That is how I read Hebrews 9:13-15.

He is the mediator of a New covenant. He has done away with everything related to the Old Covenant. He is a better High Priest, a better Santuary, a better Sacrifice and a better Covenant! Jesus is the true, lasting Covenant. The first one was a mere copy (Hebrews 9:24).

The old CAN NEVER make perfect those who draw near to God - it was inadequate (Hebrews 10:1). Jesus cam to do the will of God. Jesus "takes away the first in order to establish the second" (Hebrews 10:9).

When I lived as a SDA I did not understand any of this. I lived with a guilty conscience no matter how many times I asked for forgiveness. I worried about "being ready". I had the sincere heart but never felt assurance that I kept reading I had in Jesus. To me that is the Old Covenant. It does not give me complete access to God. Hebrews 10:22 tells us that through the New Covenant we can draw near to God "with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith".

Because of the BETTER covenant, I don't have to obey anymore! No! I don't have the freedom to live it up and sin, sin, sin... and it is NOT CHEAP GRACE (I hate that term but Paul was accused of having it so I guess I can, too!)!! It's NOT about me! God puts His laws upon my heart. I live with His Spirit. And He forgives my sins and remembers them no more (Hebrews 10:16)!

John, I don't know if this is what you were asking for. You quoted Hebrews 12:24 and said that the writer is speaking of the changes in the sacrificial system. I encourage you to read more than just a few verses. Read with a mind void of anything you have read or heard before. Claim the promise of John 16:13 before you read -- "THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH...WILL GUIDE YOU INTO ALL THE TRUTH". But remember, if you claim it, it WILL happen! :-)

My study of Hebrews shows me so much more of the New Covenant then just a change in the sacraficial system. Praise God - He changed EVERYTHING!

Give me JESUS!
Susan_2
Registered user
Username: Susan_2

Post Number: 1213
Registered: 11-2002
Posted on Sunday, December 12, 2004 - 8:03 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Frankly, John, a lot of the discussion about this covenanat or that covenant escapes me. However, I do read and study my Bible. Way back when I was a kid at a SDA boarding high school I once went to my teacher after he had been teaching us about the importance of Sabbath observance. I told him in the NT are many passages of things one must do, such as love your neighbor, pray for those who persucate you, etc. There are also many passages of things one as a Christian must not do, such as-the o.t. says to not commit adultry but Jesus said to even look at another with lust then the person has already commited adultry in his heart. Also, the o.t. says thou shall not kill but Jesus says to hate another is to have killed the person within your heart. I told my teacher that nowhere in these verses of have to's or do nots is the Sabbath mentioned. My teacher told me it didn't have to be mentined, it was a given, it was understood as being ordered to observe. This is the exact same answer I have gotten from numerous SDA kin during the past decades. However, I don't fall for that line. I honestly believe if the weekly Sabbath day was ment for Christians to observe the Bible writers and especially Jesus would have made it very clear to anyone who could read. And, I mean, very clear bold statements of it being important for Christians. Instead, what I find is that many Gentiles (that to me means everyone who is not a Jew) were and are being converted to Christianity. These people have never observed a Sabbath day in their lives. They don't practice circumsium and they don't give two bits of concern about what the type of animal they cooked up for dinner is. They were being converted to Christianity, to be Christ followers. The older I get the more I realize I got it right at a kid. And, I say this because over the years I have honestly tried to find from the Bible a way, any way to make the SDA position on the Sabbath issue make sense to me. I believe to God for us Christians it is a non-issue. If it was important for Christians it would be said very plainly. What we get though are passages that say not to judge one another on what day is observed and several other passages along that same line. Thank-you for listening to me.
Truthseeker2004
Registered user
Username: Truthseeker2004

Post Number: 4
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Sunday, December 12, 2004 - 9:52 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks for your post dd..You stated "Nowhere did the Old Testament claim that the blood of animals actually paid the price for sin. Living today under the Old Covenant is useful in teaching me the way of salvation but it does not pay the price for my sins and it does not truly clear my burdened conscience. That is how I read Hebrews 9:13-15....The bible says without the shedding of blood, there is no remission of sin.....Animal blood was shed under the old covenant for remission of sin.......The blood of Christ was shed for the remission of sins for all men for all time under the new covenant. The old covenant ended the second that temple veil split in two at the death of our Saviour.I understand the difference between the old and new covenant...As I said before, I was a pentecostal for close to 20 years before I began to learn bible truths through a dear old retired sda pastor who went door to door in our community. Now the only way that I can understand truth is if I find it in the bible and only the bible.Before I understood that, I did a lot of speculating and never seemed to come to the knowledge of the truth. I guess what I am saying is that if I can't find evidence in the bible that the decalogue is tied to the old covenant and severed from the new one, how can I hold to the position that it was done away with? I may need to share this with someone and need to have some solid biblical evidence to support my statement. I don't mean to be a pain....Like my name says..I am a truthseeker and if someone can lead me to a new truth that is in the word of God, then I am quick to accept it. I just wanted to make one point as well about the moral law. The moral law is of course written on our hearts now..and not on a tablet of stone. The moral law does not allow us to obtain God's grace or salvation...I heard an adventist evangelist say it best when he compared the moral law of God to a mirror..It is only there to show us our sin...We go to Jesus..who cleanses us through His blood that we may be made clean...whiter than snow as the psalmist says....The law is not our enemy...but a mirror..a mirror of the character of God.....which never changes because God's character always remains the same. I personally believe that God has children in every denomination on the face of the earth....Some faiths have more truth than others..that doesnt make those individuals better..it actually makes them more responsible to God...for whom much is given, much is required. Now I had mentioned about the distinction between the moral and mosaic law. The moral law was placed inside the ark(Exodus 25:21) and the Mosaic law was placed in the side of the ark(Deuteronomy 31:26) Hebrews 10:15-17 says "Whereof the Holy Ghost is also a witness to us, for after that he had said before,
This is the covenant I will make with them after those days,saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; and their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. Under the new covenant, God will not remove the law, but rather put it in our hearts and minds....The difference between the old and new covenants is that under the old covenant, the law was something that we hated to do..something that was very difficult to do as many laws were added to God's laws, while under the new covenant..with God's law in our hearts and minds..we keep the law because we love Him..Because of Christ...and His grace...we can have victory over sin because God's law is in our hearts and because we love Him...we keep His commandments..The bible speaks much of how God loves us but little of how our love for Him should be exemplified.....but Jesus summed it up when He said "If you love me, keep my commandments".
ne more comment regarding the Sabbath..If it was meant to be done away with..then why did Jesus state that it would still be kept long after His death when he prophesied about the destruction that would happen in Jerusalem in ad70?
....Hey.....I thank you for all your comments and for being patient with me in my posts...God bless!!!!! John
Belvalew
Registered user
Username: Belvalew

Post Number: 76
Registered: 7-2004
Posted on Sunday, December 12, 2004 - 9:57 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dear Truthseeker,

Daniel 9:27 is the exact text that started my journey out of Adventism once I realized that the individual being referred to in the reference about the cessation of the sacrifices was not Christ. This prophecy was actually about Antiochus Epiphenese, and the end of his power over Isreal is celebrated as Hannukah! Jesus even celebrated Hannukah with his disciples. It was a completed prophecy even before Christ appeared on earth.

Your argument about this text is pure Adventist formula and it is an effort to support Investigative Judgement. Please study this out a bit more clearly. I highly recommend the reading of Dale Ratzlaff's book entitled "The Cultic Doctrine of the Seventh-day-Adventist Church." You can order it through lifeassurance.com. We serve an awesome God who has paid the price for our sins with his own blood, the blood of God himself. Please be at peace with the fact that there is nothing you can do to assist with your own salvation. The Bible says "the just by faith shall live." All that Christ requires of us is faith, and that faith will carry you through to eternity.

Belva
Truthseeker2004
Registered user
Username: Truthseeker2004

Post Number: 5
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Sunday, December 12, 2004 - 10:16 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ok.....then to accept your statement..I would need to know how Antiochus caused the sacrifice and oblation to cease. I have several non adventist bibles and the commentaries state that the latter part of verse 27 refer to titus vespasian and the destruction of Jerusalem..while the first part of this verse refers to Christ ending sacrifice and oblation...This is a common view among many of my non adventist Christian friends, be they catholic, pentecostal or baptist.
Belvalew
Registered user
Username: Belvalew

Post Number: 77
Registered: 7-2004
Posted on Sunday, December 12, 2004 - 10:27 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dear Truthseeker,

I'm now responding to your statement about Jesus saying, "If you love me, keep my commandments." If you want to read Jesus' commandments, go to John 15, you will find Jesus' commandments clearly enumerated. Jesus was on his way to the cross. This was to be his last study session with his disciples before the cross. HE KNEW THAT HE WAS FINISHING THE FIRST COVENANT AT THE CROSS. He gave them the text of the new covenant -- Starting at verse 9 it says,"As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in his love. I have told you this that my joy may be complete. My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends. You are my friends if you do what I command."

Don't you see it. Jesus framed the new covenant of his blood with statements that he wants us to do what he commands. the he said, "My command is this, love each other as I have loved you." That is all encompassing, and fulfills the whole law without nit picking.

Please understand that Jesus is True Sabbath, True rest. Worshipping a day will not bring you rest. Worshipping Christ will.

Belva
Jeremy
Registered user
Username: Jeremy

Post Number: 175
Registered: 10-2004
Posted on Sunday, December 12, 2004 - 11:00 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

John,

You wrote:

"I guess what I am saying is that if I can't find evidence in the bible that the decalogue is tied to the old covenant and severed from the new one, how can I hold to the position that it was done away with?"

I showed where the Bible says that the Old Covenant is, specifically, the Ten Commandments!

"but Jesus summed it up when He said 'If you love me, keep my commandments'."

Yes, but He never commanded the Sabbath--that is not one of His commandments! They already kept the Law of Moses (including the Ten Commandments). Jesus was talking about HIS commandments. And He never commanded the Sabbath!

"If it was meant to be done away with..then why did Jesus state that it would still be kept long after His death when he prophesied about the destruction that would happen in Jerusalem in ad70?"

Of course the Jews would still be keeping the Sabbath. But what Jesus was saying had nothing to do with his disciples keeping the Sabbath. He said to pray that their flight not be in the winter or on the Sabbath because it would be difficult to flee then. The gates of Jerusalem were shut on the Sabbath, and they would have difficulty fleeing.

Jeremy
Truthseeker2004
Registered user
Username: Truthseeker2004

Post Number: 6
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Sunday, December 12, 2004 - 11:19 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks Belva for your comments....I have come to a point where I believe that it is one's personal choice as to whether they choose to rest on Saturday or Sunday....and I think that it is up to each individual to decide for themselves which day they will set aside...but the bottom line is that with the hectic pace many of us go through..it is a blessing to take one day a week if we can find it and get to know our Creator....Just a God and me day. Like I said, I have friends who rest on Sundays....but my personal conviction is towards the Sabbath..although it was once Sunday...I still go to church on Sunday's sometimes too.My issue is not so much with the Sabbath as it is with folks saying the law was done away with when that just isn't so. Jesus even said that the law would not pass away until heaven and earth passed away first. It seems like the church has come to a point where they think it is a bad thing to want to obey God....They label it as legalism when in reality for many it is simply wanting to honor God out of love by keeping His moral law..which is really just a reflection of His character...What holy father wouldnt want their child to be modeled after their character?
... A personal relationship with Jesus Christ is paramount..There is a verse that sums up our life on earth as God's people...Pro 4:18 But the path of the just is as the shining light, that shineth more and more unto the perfect day. Our walk with Christ is progressive and not stagnant. Our light should shine more and more as we learn new truths out of the bible as we grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. Everything falls into place in our lives as we begin a lifetime of sanctification..but it is Christ that justifies us..Praise His Holy Name!!!!
Dd
Registered user
Username: Dd

Post Number: 249
Registered: 7-2004
Posted on Sunday, December 12, 2004 - 12:40 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

John,
Please do not think that I would ever get tired of debating and studying and searching...with you (and I am confident that everyone else here on the forum would say the same thing to you). The truth is I will always spend my time digging, asking, looking, praying...on all the new things I see in God's Word. To be able to do this along with you is even better. The beauty is that we will have eternity to continue this process! Keep asking questions and sharing the answers the Holy Spirit is directing you to.

Now...in regards to your search for answers regarding Saturday or Sunday...I like Hebrews 3 and 4 and the clear answer I see as to which day I am to worship God. In a sense, the day we worship DOES have some bearing on our salvation:

3:7 - "TODAY if you hear His voice..."

3:12, 12 - "Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God. Encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called TODAY..."

4:7 - "He again fixes a certain day, TODAY..."

The Sabbath rest that God offers me, under the New Covenant, is TODAY in Christ. It is mine today, tomorrow, everyday...Every moment! As I trust Christ's righteousness, I rest in Him.

4:11 - "Therefore let us be diligent to enter that rest, so that no one will fall through following the example of disobedience." What is the disobedience this verse talks about? The disobedience of not entering completely in Jesus and the rest He provides EVERYDAY. The Hebrew writer likened this disobedience to the same disobedience of the Israelites when they refused to believe in God and did not end up in the Promised Land and wondered the desert.

Hope that helps you understand my point. :-)
Susan_2
Registered user
Username: Susan_2

Post Number: 1214
Registered: 11-2002
Posted on Sunday, December 12, 2004 - 3:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

John. I hope you read 1 Maccabes. Start right at the beginning of the fisrt chapter. It also is aBible book and it is very helpful in undersanding this.
Belvalew
Registered user
Username: Belvalew

Post Number: 78
Registered: 7-2004
Posted on Sunday, December 12, 2004 - 7:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dear John,

Please excuse me, I think I assigned the fulfillment of the wrong prophecy to Dan. 9.27. The prophecy I was responding to was Dan. 8:14, and that indeed would have been Epiphenese because during the time that he had power over Isreal he caused the sacrificial system to cease for a period of approximately 2300 sacrifices (evenings & mornings). As Susan_2 has so aptly suggested, the reading of 1 Maccabees will tell you the story as it unfolded. Daniel 9:27 is another issue as far as finding the actual solution to the prophecy is concerned. There are many that will say we are still waiting for the appearance of that individual and that he, in fact, may be the Antichrist prophecied for the end of time. Once again, please forgive any confusion I may have caused on this issue.

Belva
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker

Post Number: 1072
Registered: 12-2003
Posted on Sunday, December 12, 2004 - 10:39 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

John, nowhere does the Bible make a distinction between the "moral law" and the "ceremonial law". That is a distinction that is fabricated to create an argument to support Sabbath-keeping. Even today Jews say there are 613 individual commands in the law, and the law includes the 10 Commandments as well as all the tiny "ceremonial" laws. It is never broken into pieces as separate laws. The 10 Commandments were the official words of the covenant and contained the conditions of the covenant, but it was not a separate law.

Galatians 3:15-25 are clear about the role of the law--including the 10 Commandments which were the words of the covenant. The law was not given to Abraham. He was given the promises. "The law, introduced 430 years later [after Abraham], does not set aside the covenant previously established by God and thus do away with the promise...What, then, was the purpose of the law? it was added because of transgression until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come...Before this faith [in Jesus Christ] came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. So the law was put incharge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the suprevision of the law." (Galatians 3:17, 19, 23-25)

When we say Jesus fulfilled the law, we are not saying the law was destroyed. We are saying it has been superceded by a greater authority--Jesus Himself. Those who are born again do not need the law. The LAW--God Himself--is in us. The written law will last until the new earth, however, as a witness that Jesus is who He said He is. If the law were no longer existing, we would have no evidence that Jesus is the law's fulfillment. We have to have the law to provide the evidence for Jesus' identity. Only He, of anyone who has ever lived on earth, fulfilled all of it. The Law stands as evidence--but it is no longer our authority.

Only God is eternal in the universe. Everything single other thing is created. The law cannot be eternal--God gave it at Sinai. It was words written for Israel--but it is not Eternal. If it were, the law would have to be a member of the Godhead. The law was given temporarily to show humanity what righteousness must look like. It was authoritative until the One who is righteous came. Jesus--truly God, truly eternal--has come and not only replaced the law as our authority, but He has become our sin sacrifice and our Redeemer. He is the eternal King of kings. He is greater than the law because He embodies eternal law. Of course He can replace the law! He is God-the law is not!

Similarly, the Sabbath is not eternal. It was a day--a created time--foreshadowing Jesus. He replaced holy Time by giving us His holy presence for all time--and also for eternity. The Sabbath day cannot be eternal because God created it. If it were eternal, it would have to be a part of the Godhead. It is not. Jesus embodies Sabbath just as He embodies the entire law.

Nothing physical on this earth is eternal--including the 10 Commandments. Jesus is greater and more inclusive and more "demanding" and more righteous than the law. He has replaced it in our lives. We obey Him--not the law. We respond to His Spirit--not to the law. The law, in fact, cannot generate a heart response from us. The Holy Spirit can.

Praise God for giving us Himself! How amazing.

Colleen
Praisegod
Registered user
Username: Praisegod

Post Number: 169
Registered: 3-2004
Posted on Monday, December 13, 2004 - 4:46 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Quick question to help clarify in order to give others a succinct answer: For the modern day, unchurched gentile who knows nothing of Christianity or Judaism--what law will they be judged by?

My last trip to Tennessee I noticed these 10 Commandment signs all over in people's yards. I wonder if there is a special SDA version with the 4th one highlighted? :-)

Praise God...
Esther
Registered user
Username: Esther

Post Number: 96
Registered: 5-2004
Posted on Monday, December 13, 2004 - 8:05 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

You all may be beyond this already, but up the forum a bit someone asked for a text stating that the law changed.
Heb 7:11-12
11 Now if perfection was through the Levitical priesthood (FOR ON THE BASIS OF IT THE PEOPLE RECEIVED THE LAW), what further need was there for another priest to arise according to the order of Melchizedek, and not be designated according to the order of Aaron?
12 For when the priesthood is changed, OF NECESSITY THERE TAKES PLACE A CHANGE OF LAW ALSO.
Melissa
Registered user
Username: Melissa

Post Number: 630
Registered: 7-2003
Posted on Monday, December 13, 2004 - 8:26 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'm a little late jumping in here, but as Colleen mentioned above, there is no segregation of old covenant laws (moral being eternal, rest temporary) as John mentioned. ALL were given by God, those inside and those outside the box. Moses didn't make them up to supplement what God said. John used Exodus 25:21 to say there was a moral law, but here's what my Exodus 25:21 says: "You shall put the mercy seat on top of the ark and in the ark you shall put the testimony that I will give you." That doesn't say anything about a "moral law".

Elsewhere there was a great question....if there is no marriage in heaven, why is there a need for a law against coveting someone's wife, or committing adultery? It's already been asked that if there is no day/night, how is the 7th day rotation going to be kept? The 10 commandments said not to commit adultery, but Jesus said "don't lust", the 10 Cs said don't commit murder, Jesus said "don't hate"... so which is it? To say that the 10 Cs are the moral, eternal law creates quite a quandry from my way of thinking. If the 10 Cs are what I need to follow, then I can ignore what Jesus said, I can hate everyone and be in line with the 10 Cs which is the "eternal" law? I can do some pretty awful things and still fit in line with the 10 Cs. I can be a homosexual, since that's not in the 10 Cs. One can be involved with incest, since that's not in the 10Cs. See why I think the 10 Cs are weak and faulty??

Romans 14 still says not to judge people in regards to holy days, Col 2 says not to judge in regards to sabbath...annual, seasonal, monthly, weekly...all of them. As pointed out above also, Deuteronomy calls the 10 Cs the tablets of the covenant....that would be the old covenant given to Moses, not the new covenant promised to Abraham.

And Dd's point about Hebrews 4 is beautiful. God has assigned another day for rest...it's today. People get hung up on the when, scripture is concerned with who....not when.

The symbolism in the Old Testament to point people to Christ is incredible looking at it in hindsight. He was our first fruits, he was a our atonement, he was our passover lamb, he was our bread of life, and he is our sabbath rest. Jesus didn't point us to another god for anything eternal, he pointed us to himself. God is not the 10 commandments, neither is it a mirror looking at God. The bible is clear that keeping the commandments cannot make you righteous and God is righteous and holy. So, if keeping them can't make you righteous, then they can't look like God because God is righteous.

As Belview said, if you look at the things Jesus said to do, he never found keeping the 10 Cs sufficient. The rich young ruler told Jesus he had kept all of the 10 Cs from birth, but there was still more he had to do...because Jesus knew his heart...he had to sell all he had. Just keeping the 10 Cs was not enough.

Finally, the end time issue regarding worship was mentioned. What I have yet to find in any prophecy literature is that "WHEN" one worship is the issue. The issue is always WHO. Not one single time are people chastised for worshipping at the wrong time. They are always condemned for worshipping other gods, idols, things. So, though end time does talk about worship, it is who, not when...unless when is the who for you.

Praisegod, I saw those signs advertised in a Christian book store magazine. How irritating.

That's a whole bunch of "gut reaction" to the things I've read over this thread. I can also produce scripture to each point, but haven't for time.

Topics | Last Day | Last Week | Tree View | Search | Help/Instructions | Program Credits Administration