| Author | Message | ||
| Tracey Registered user Username: Tracey Post Number: 120 Registered: 9-2004 |
So, this is what I hear... In predominately black SDA churches, EGW is taught less or not at all. They do their own thing, in essence. C tends to think the problems that I bring up are a kind of historical adventist's mindset which is primarily among predominantly white SDA churches. I don't know your opinion on this, but I spoke with Hrob about this issue. And he is in a largely populated SDA city and environment (which is black) with its own college, stores etc. and says that he has found the difference to be that black SDA work harder at hiding the EGW teachings from others. That they are excellent at covering up what they really believe. That they may not say her name, but her teachings are woven into the lessons anyway. Hrob feels that black SDAs go to great lengths and are masters at deception concerning admitting that either they follow her teachings or that her teachings are in the history of the church. C has said that pretty much EGW teaching is not the experience in black SDA churches. Well,whatever because the spirit of the antichrist has no color! Has anyone experienced or seen a difference in the culture of teaching in the churches of different races? | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 1215 Registered: 11-2002 |
The SDA chrch has done away with EGW's writings on her alleged amalgamation of man and beast. I honestly don't understand how anynoe who honestly believes all peoples are God's chidren, once they learn what she said with those words can still be SDA. For many years now the SDA church has been giving new meaning to what she wrote. You can read it for yourself on Dirk's website. I realize it may be a harsh thing to do, somewhat along the line of a shock treetment, but you could have C read it for himself. I know to "prove" EGW wasn't predidise it is common to hear SDA's say that EGW and Sojourner Truth were friends. I don't know how far to take that claim of friends but apparenntly they were at least acquaintences. I have even had SDA's tell me that Sojourner Truth had planned to embrase SDA'ism and EGW as a prophet but she (ST) died before that took place officilly. I think that statement is just 100% wishful thinking. However, from my experience I will share this. I am white. My very best friend growing up was black. Bless her heart, I sure do miss her. She passed away several years ago. Well, anyway my parents and her grandparents were best friends. The small rural SDA church we all attended was very mixed ethnically and racally. We heard EGW's name mentioned very seldom in that church and most of the older folks in that church would have to be referred to as historical adventists. It doesn't matter though because even if EGW's name is never mentioned her imput it there. Anyone who reads the SDA Sabbath School lesson book, the Review, any other SDA publiction at all or watches any SDA sponsered tv program will be getting a heavy dose of EGW. | ||
| Truthseeker2004 Registered user Username: Truthseeker2004 Post Number: 7 Registered: 12-2004 |
I remember a few years ago..when I was in a Christian chat room..that someone came in and started posting some quotes that ellen white had made in her books....Up until that time, I had not paid any attention to her writings..The few sda churches that I had attended did not mention her name or read from her writings very much...aside from what is put in the Sabbath quarterlies...When I first became adventist..I had concerned coworkers bombard me with egw stuff they took off the internet.....I was so busy learning new things from the bible that I just brushed it aside as I didnt want to be distracted from the bible studies I was doing...Anyway...several years later, as I said....someone had posted some of her outlandish comments into an sda chat room...After reading some of the things she had written, I was very upset and angry. I went to ellenwhite.org which contains all of her writings online to verify that indeed this was true.....I was pretty devastated to find out that she had said such things.....I quit going to church for some time and became very angry with all religious organizations......It was after alot of study between my wife and I that eventually we decided that we would continue in the adventist church without reading any of her books...or even acknowledging her for what sda's say she is....I still run into people in chat rooms that anger me when they say "sister white says".......We base our understanding of truth in the bible alone.....Now.......to be fair....I have started reading the desire of ages and havent come across anything yet....I know that some of what she said was off the wall...but I think you have to consider the time in which it was written..Culture was much different and things that happened then could be interpreted as whacky now.......So...while we call ourselves sda....we dont lift up ellen white...we just consider some of her books to be of benefit...she was just another author.....I don't get hung up on her at all because it takes away from my relationship with Christ....Ellen White is sure a sore issue in the church...but I cant judge as that judging is left up to God.....I just need to walk in His grace and trust in His power to give me victory daily over sin.I think that the devil is a pro at distracting us and getting our focus on anything but Him.....God knows the intent of our hearts and if we are content where we worship and with what we believe..so long as the saving grace aspect of it leads to Him...then we are covered by the blood of Christ.I don't profess to know everything and certainlt don't have all the answers..It's enough to make your head spin..There are a kazillion faiths out there because someone wasnt happy with something. I have debated eschatology many times but have come to a point where I just think that we need to really get to know the Creator who loves us unconditionally.Surely God will reveal truths to us if He knows we are sincerely seeking..The bible says "Ps 84:11 For the LORD God is a sun and shield: the LORD will give grace and glory: no good thing will he withhold from them that walk uprightly". ...................John | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 176 Registered: 10-2004 |
Truthseeker2004, Some of Ellen White's worst blasphemies are contained in The Desire of Ages. Here is just one horrific example: "His example declares that our only hope of eternal life is through bringing the appetites and passions into subjection to the will of God." (The Desire of Ages, page 122, paragraph 2.) Paul says that anyone who preaches another Gospel is eternally condemned! "6I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospelñ 7which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! 9As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!" (Galatians 1:6-9 NIV.) Ellen White claimed to be a prophet and "much more than a prophet." She is therefore a false prophet. She taught that Satan bears the penalty for our sins and that our sins are not blotted out until satan bears them! There is much evidence that she was controlled by satanic/demonic powers, and inspired by Satan. Her own husband said that at times "the very devil" would possess Ellen. This is serious stuff. She is a real false prophet, and she founded a real, controlling, abusive cult. Jeremy | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 1070 Registered: 12-2003 |
Tracey, I can't speak about black churches, but even in many white churches EGW is minimized. The fact remains: whether or not Ellen is spoken of, every Adventist doctrine is derived from Ellen's interpretation, not from the Bible. In 1982 the church hired Fred Veltman, then the chair of the PUC religion dept, to investigate Walter Rea's claims about EGWs plagiarism. He spent 8 years at a cost to the church of around $450,000 studying the Desire of Ages. He concluded that most of the material in DA was derived from outside sources, her two primary sources being Daniel March and Hannah. The results of his research has revealed that possibly as much as 90% of EGWs "writing" was plagiarized. Dr. Don McAdams, an SDA scholar, stated in 1980 that if every paragraph in the Great Controversy were properly footnoted, every paragraph in the book would be footnoted. The church has never challenged his statement. It is also known that Fanny Bolton, EGWs secretary, wrote Steps to Christ. (Info thanks to Robert Sanders' website, Truth or Fables.) Ellen White was not only a false prophet, she was a fraud who deceived many innocent people and made huge bucks from her writing. In 1914, the year before she died, she made $100,000 from royalties from "her" books. (DN Canright's book, Mrs. EG White, Her LIfe and Times) While she claimed not to be a prophet, she said she was much more than a prophet. In spite of the apparent orthodoxy of many Adventist doctrines (such as the Trinity, the deity of Christ, etc.) even they are tainted by Ellen's arian beliefs which did not change until the very late part of theh 19th century--and then apparently because when the Desire of Ages was published, it stated unequivocally that Jesus was actually God. Prior to that time the Adventist church (including James and Ellen White) taught that Jesus was the "created" son of God. This early arianism still affects the way Adventists see Christ's deity. Adventists generally do not think of Jesus as the sovereign, powerful God of justice and mercy portrayed in both the Old and the New Testaments. To Adventists, Jesus is usually the "friendly" extension of God, not to be confused with the mighty, just, wrathful and magnanimous God who finally (according to Ellen) agreed to let Jesus come to earth to die. Jesus is, in an unspoken sort of way, a sort of demi-god to Adventists. Further, Adventists usually have a hard time talking about Jesus. They can easily speak of God, but not Jesus. And John, we absolutely CAN and must judge Ellen White. The Bible clearly teaches that many false prophets will arise and will teach "doctrines of demons" and will speak what itching ears want to hear. Any time a church has a "commentator" who is considered crucial to the church's identity, one must examine that commentator's integrity and message. Ellen White fails the tests of a Biblical prophet, and further, she plagiarized. Plagiarism is a crime, and it is a particularly malicious form of stealing. Lest anyone try to say that copyright laws weren't as harsh back then (and they DID prohibit plagiarizing), she still had no shame when she prefaced her borrowed insights by saying, "I was shown". Ellen White was not a prophet of God, and James used her to gain power and profit. The spirit of deception which established EGW as God's messenger for the Little Flock and which shaped the doctrines so Adventists would be unable to experience the freedom of the gospel as long as they remained bound to the church is the same spirit of deception which claims the church and its members today, even when they are unaware of that claim. Again, as Dale Ratzlaff says, there are two kinds of Adventists: the deceived and the dishonest. The deceived honestly believe the untruths they think are gospel, and the dishonest play on the deceived ones' naivete for their own power. As Rudy Torres, senior pastor of the Glendale Seventh-day Adventist church in the mid to late eighties told us in his Sabbath School class one day, he and his colleagues were taught the problems of EGW and the unique SDA doctrines in seminary, but they were told not to tell their parishioners because the knowledge would cause them to lose faith. Tracey and John, whether or not you place emphasis on EGW, the church is shaped by her and those who used her. Adventist doctrines are not shaped by the Bible. They are based on faulty hermeneutics, and they hold people in bondage. As Paul says in 2 Corinthians 3, whenever Moses is read (the law), a veil covers the hearts of the people. But when they turn to the Lord, the veil is removed. The truth and freedom that are in Jesus are indescribable, and they are completely hidden from those who believe the law must define the new covenant instead of Jesus defining the law. Praise God for revealing truth and for breaking the bonds of false prophets and deception! Colleen | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 1216 Registered: 11-2002 |
Also, somewhere I read where EGW stated that she occassionally had demons appearing before her when she was in the privacy of her bedroom. I urge you, Tracey and John to reasearch some of this stuff out for yourselves from the links on this site. Then you can go to the links from those sites and so on. One unique thing about the SDA church, and I believe this is ture of all cults, is that they can change their positions on most everything as the need arises to gain or keep members and still rely on EGW. This is because EGW not only contradicts the Bible numerous times, she also frequently conrtadicts herself. It makes it handy for the SDA preachers and Bible teachers because they can quote her by saying what they think the person they are talking to wants to hear and then they can quote her to someone else who wants to hear the opposite and they haven't ever misquoted her. Sounds handy enough. One time when I was a little girl the Sabbath School teacher in the adult Sabbath School that my parents were in said something totally opposite from what the Bible said on the subject. My dad interrupted the teacher and read aloud the Bible on that topic and he asked the teacher where he got his information from. The teacher said he was readng from Sister White and gave the name of the book and the page. My dad said the Bible said...and he said what the Bible said. The teacher cut off my dad and I am quoting the teacher, he said, "Mr. xxx, I am reading from the Word of God". And, he kept reading out of EGW's book. My dad hardly ever went to the SDA church much after that. I even remember what the disagreement was about. The Bible says Eve gave a piece of the fruit to Adam "who was with her". EGW says Eve went to find Adam and convinced him to take the fruit, giving that story a totally different understanding. SDA's DO NOT look towards EGW as other Christians look to various Christian writers and commatators. As a Lutheran I can say for sure SDA's do not look to EGW as Lutherans do to Martin Luther. And, the Baptists do not think of Billy Graham in the same way SDA's think of EGW. Generally it seems to me that SDA's have a very perverted reverance, an awe of EGW. This is a hard thing to explain because it seems one needs to experience the phanoniman to understand what I'm trying to convey. She is not just another Christian writer. She is a wolf in sheeps clothing. Don't let yourselves be decieved. | ||
| Tracey Registered user Username: Tracey Post Number: 121 Registered: 9-2004 |
Oh please! Don't misunderstand.. I absolutely trust nothing related to her INCLUDING a body that chooses to keep her in their fundamental beliefs (instead of using ONLY the word of God). It is indeed the spirit of the antichrist to specifically teach things contrary to the Word of our God. Colleen and Susan, it is not enough for me, personally (I can't speak for John) to just say I will ignore her teachings or her influence. I think you guys know well enough, that I will not and cannot compromise the Word of God, by merely, ignoring a false teacher or minimizing her influence. The spiritual roots of this is antichrist and THAT has no color whatsoever. It will destroy whomeever it can. This spirit has run rampant through this church, people's minds and completely blinded them. Please know I am NOT in anyway compromising my stand on EGW. I brought up this subject b/c it's one more dumb defense and excuse that C has used in our conversations. I thought I would ask merely from a social/cultural standpoint.. Spiritually, I know the implications of this and I agree with you and Susan 100%. I am strong in the Lord and know full well a lie when I hear one. I will not be luke warm as to ignore a false teaching, I will not compromise the Word of God which Jesus said gives me life. There is no room in my heart for anything more nor anything less than Jesus Christ in whom my full salvation is established by my faith alone! <although, the love and concern of your words don't go unnoticed> Don't worry, I'm still Tracey. I am not decieved. Tracey | ||
| Krista Registered user Username: Krista Post Number: 43 Registered: 8-2004 |
Jeremy, Susan & Colleen ~ Great posts, thanks! Doesn't EGW say to either accept all her writings or none of them? | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 1075 Registered: 12-2003 |
Yes, Krista, she does. Colleen | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 100 Registered: 7-2004 |
John, I read your description of your experience with egw and it sounds all too similar. I was a fairly new adventist studying theology at Andrews University in the early '80's. I had easily brushed aside the plagarism charges, they didn't impact me THAT much. I came across statements in my own reading of EGW and in the ultra-conservative right wing SDA publications that I couldn't reconcile with Scripture. I spent many hours in the EGW archives at the JW library. Shortly after this I became so discouraged that I stopped going to church, stopped reading Scripture, stopped praying, basically stopped anything to do with God. Years later I started coming back to church (in an SDA church) telling myself I could be SDA and just ignore EGW. This worked for a while, but eventually I had to make a decision. The question wasn't whether she was a prophet or a prolific, but plagaristic, Christian author. She claimed to have been given the messages in visions. I needed to make a decision about the source of these visions. If they were from God, I needed to come to terms with what she had to say. If they didn't come from God, I was attending and financially supporting a church that was spreading false prophecy. I knew I had to make this decision, but I avoided it for a very long time. | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 101 Registered: 7-2004 |
Consider how the dominos fall once you firmly reject EGW and the doctrines that are based upon, or rely heavily upon, her writings: The SDA definition of Remnant Church is immediately gone (no SOP=no keep the commandments and have the SOP). I find it interesting that I have watched SDA teaching of remnant evolve such that many SDAs describe the remnant as people from all faiths and avoid the remnant church altogether. Although the doctrinal statement in the church manual is still very clear in regards to the "church" part of remnant. The 1844/Sanctuary/IJ is another quick domino to fall. The IJ is probably the first part of that to go, and even now we see it being re-packaged as the pre-advent judgment where the emphasis is on God being vindicated rather than man being judged. The 1844 part of this may be what people retain the longest. Which is interesting since it is the first and fundamental error that is at the foundation of the SDA movement. Without being the remnant church, and without the message of the IJ having begun, the idea that SDAs are the vehicle for the 3 angels' messages falls flat. The health message does not exist without EGW. Vegetarianism is stripped of its religious trappings and simply becomes a dietary choice. Recognition that clean vs unclean was done away with in the NT dawns. Salvation by faith alone start to take on real meaning. The "extras" start to all fall away. | ||
| Goldenbear Registered user Username: Goldenbear Post Number: 10 Registered: 12-2004 |
Ric b: Your first point is what made the difference for me. I was in a bible study with some nonSDA's when we came across Rev. 19:10. I smugly thought I knew what this was all about (the endorsement of her writings almost as canon) until someone said, " You know, prophecy doesn't mean anything if it doesn't testify of Jesus." WHAT? My wife, who was way ahead of me on the whole EGW issue, had been saying that she thought it was odd the the Methodist church had kicked EG and others out of the church for date setting, Something specifically prohibited in scripture. No wonder she was so hard on "apostate protestants" | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 628 Registered: 7-2003 |
I know from B that he doesn't even recognize when he is quoting EGW. He starts with a phrase of scrpture and ends with EGW tacked on the end. WHen I actually look up the scrpture and tell him what it really says absent EGWs words, he doesn't know how to respond. And it doesn't matter how many times I show him what he's doing. And he says the same thing as John. She's not quoted that often in his church and she's not relied on, but reality is she is there whether she is specifically mentioned or not. On the clean vs. unclean thing... I've been reading through Deuteronomy and was struck to find there were times God said it was okay to eat unclean. Deut 12:15 "However, you may slaughter and eat meat within your gates, whatever your heart desires, according to the blessing of the Lord you God which he has given you; the unclean and the clean may eat of it, of the gazelle and the deer alike. " .... 22 "Just as the gazelle and the deer are eaten, so you may eat them; the unclean and the clean alike may eat them...." I think the context is in certain situations, but even still. I was surprised to see that even the Jews were allowed to eat unclean meats under certain circumstances...even circumstances where 'clean' meats were available. | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 102 Registered: 7-2004 |
What I find particularly ironic are the statements about being at a specific church that doesn't place much emphasis on EGW while at the same time a growing number of people bring the Clear Word to church every week, read passages from it during Sabbath School and even read from it for the Scripture reading (I will say I never heard it used in a sermon, but I heard so many sermons where no Scripture was used after the Scripture reading that there isn't quite so much surprise). Since the Clear Word already contains most of the EGW "twists" to passages, there is no real need to directly quote her. Personally I think the Clear Word is even more dangerous than Ellen's books, since the "source" is obscured. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 1076 Registered: 12-2003 |
I agree, Ricñb. Colleen | ||
| Truthseeker2004 Registered user Username: Truthseeker2004 Post Number: 10 Registered: 12-2004 |
As I usually do..I pick up a book to read before I fall asleep at night and last night I happened to be reading out of the great controversy. I have been choosing to start reading ellen white's books as I want to find out why other sda's think her writings are so great, and I came across something that really struck me....and scared me too.......On page 538 ellen white is speaking about the close of probation and she says "When He leaves the sanctuary, darkness covers the inhabitants of the earth. In that fearful time, the righteous must live in the sight of a holy God without an intercessor"....That got me thinking..what happens if we sin without an intercessor? Any comments? | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 69 Registered: 8-2004 |
Melissa, I thought that verse in Deut was refering to clean and unclean people both being able to eat the meat, rather than that people could eat clean or unclean meat? (as opposed to particular parts of meat and particular sacrifices that only the Priests and 'clean' people could partake of) . . . Perhaps I'm missing something. helovesme2 | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 123 Registered: 7-2004 |
First of all, we won't sin without an intercessor. I rely on what the Bible says about my Intercessor, not what EGW says. Hebrews 7:25 says "Therefore He is able to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them." Hebrews 13:5 says "...for He Himself has said, 'I will never desert you, nor will I ever forsake you,'" Secondly, as a lifetime SDA until a few months ago, I can honestly say I along with many other SDA's, have never found EGW to have such "great writings." From my teen years through now, I have been greatly upset and concerned about her many statements, such as the one you quoted above, that strike fear into people. Most SDA's I know dismiss much of what EGW says for those reasons and also because much of what she wrote is in complete error. I believe that even those SDA's who truly hold EGW in such great esteem do so because of the pride they have in her as the primary founder of their church, not because of how great her writings are. It's because of that pride in EGW that many of those type of SDA's insist that what she wrote is a correct interpretation of the Bible. Even at that, those same SDA's who hold EGW in such high esteem will ignore or gloss over the contradictory statements EGW makes that don't agree with what those SDA's personally believe. EGW not only contradicts the Bible, but also contradicts herself, making it impossible for anyone to believe 100% in everything she wrote. | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 178 Registered: 10-2004 |
John, You said: "I was so busy learning new things from the bible that I just brushed it aside as I didnt want to be distracted from the bible studies I was doing" Do you know what those so-called "Bible studies" that the SDA was sharing with you actually were??! They were actually straight from Ellen G. White and her Satan-inspired twistings of Scripture!! That's what the SDAs do. They make you think it's just a "Bible study" by not directly quoting Ellen White, but it's really just her misinterpretations and twistings of the Bible and false arguments/straw men etc. that come from Ellen's "doctrines of demons"!!! And yes, Susan is right about Ellen having encounters with demons in her room, and she actually writes, and I could get you the exact quote, that she didn't want to ask for any help from anyone because it was "between her and the demons"! Freaky stuff! This and more occultism in Ellen's life and writings and visions is all documented in Sydney Cleveland's good book called "White Washed." Jeremy | ||
| Truthseeker2004 Registered user Username: Truthseeker2004 Post Number: 11 Registered: 12-2004 |
Thanks for your reply raven...That verse you quoted dispels any fears I had......Hebrews 13:5.......for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.I have read that scripture before but needed to read it again!!!! |
