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| Truthseeker2004 Registered user Username: Truthseeker2004 Post Number: 8 Registered: 12-2004 |
Hello Colleen....I just wanted to comment in response to your statement that the bible does not make a distinction between moral and ceremonial laws. In his letter to the Ephesians, Paul wrote that the Gentile believers who once had no hope of salvation now have equal hope with Jews who believe in Christ.Ephesians 2:11-13 says "Eph 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; Eph 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:Eph2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. Now if we read verses 14 of that same chapter it says "Eph 2:14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; .....Now we need to know what that "middle wall" is and we can find the answer in the next three verses "Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; Eph 2:16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby; Eph 2:17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. What was "the law of commandments in ordinances" that Christ abolished? If Paul had been suggesting that the Ten Commandments were abolished by Christ, he would have been contradicting what he had written to the Roman Christians.. Paul wrote to the Romans "Ro 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law. Ro 7:7 What shall we say then? is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.Ro 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. Ro 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.Ro 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: Ro 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. Ro 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. The Ten Commandments still functioned for Paul and, in his inspired understanding, will be the standard on the basis of which all humanity ultimately will be judged (ROM 2:13). In his epistle to the Ephesians, Paul was referring to the ceremonial laws that were a barrier separating Jew and Gentile. Once Christ had died on the cross, this barrier was abolished. Now Gentiles could join Jews in worshiping Christ without the hindrance of having to enter into a set of ceremonial observances. Galatians 3:28 says "Ga 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. The second that temple veil was split in two..Mr 15:38 And the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom.", exposing the Holy place...and the moment that the prophecy in Daniel was fulfilled "Da 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease... no longer was the ceremonial laws to be observed...This made it possible for non Jews to also experience the love and grace of God..to experience the atonement for sin through the blood of the Lamb, Jesus Christ....What a time that would have been...to see God's blessings being poured out upon the nations outside of Israel. Now just for the sake of understanding Ephesians 2:15..Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace......What exactly are the ordinances? The dictionary defines an ordinance as "a municipal statute or regulation"..Paul gives us an example of ordinances or earthly laws when he says in Colossians "Col 2:20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, Col 2:21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not; Col 2:22 Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men? It is clear here that he is speaking about ceremonial laws relating to cleanliness, food etc.....It makes no reference to moral obedience to the decalogue.Hebrews is authored by several writers so I am not sure who wrote "Heb 9:9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience; Heb 9:10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.....once again..referring to ordinances of which the decalogue is absent.Hebrews 9:1 gives us another example "Heb 9:1 Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary. "....From this we see that the first covenant contained the ordinances of divine service and a worldly sanctuary.Again...none of the ten commandments is stated.Looking through the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance.....you can find many examples of ordinances. All of them are rooted in the earthly sanctuary service..which has been abolished for a heavenly sanctuary..which the bible speaks of existing "Heb 8:1 Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens; Heb 8:2 A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man...Reading more into that chapter "Heb 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. Just in closing,I wanted to post some verses that I know are well known..but they can be read and understood in all their simplicity..Our Saviour said to us "Matthew 5:17-19, "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break on of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven." When referring to the moral law...James gives an example "James 2:10-12, "For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law. So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty."...The moral law is called the law of liberty. Finally..John says "1 John 2:3,4, "And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him." I apologize for the long post..I am learning in the process of studying this myself ...lol..............John | ||
| Truthseeker2004 Registered user Username: Truthseeker2004 Post Number: 9 Registered: 12-2004 |
Very true Esther..there was a change of law.....Heb 9:9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience; Heb 9:10 Which stood ONLY in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.......The time of reformation came when Christ completed His work at the cross..thereby nullifying the acts mentioned in Hebrews 9:10.....This still does not make mention of any one of the 10 commandments being deleted from the reformation of law. | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 179 Registered: 10-2004 |
John, You quote Romans 7 about the 10 Commandments--but just a few verses earlier is where Paul says that we have died to the Law and we have been released from the Law and that it is ADULTERY if we try to be married to Jesus AND the Law! This "LAW" obviously includes the Ten Commandments since Paul quotes from them a few verses later as you pointed out! Paul makes it clear that we are under the Law of Messiah (Christ) and NOT under the Law of Moses (which includes 613 commandments including the 10 Commandments): "To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law though not being myself under the Law, so that I might win those who are under the Law; to those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ [Messiah], so that I might win those who are without law." (1 Corinthians 9:20-21 NASB.) Messiah came and gave HIS Law and that is what we are under NOT the 10 Commandments or any other part of the Mosaic Law!
And what does John define those commandments as? Certainly not the 10! "And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight. And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment." (1 John 3:22-23 KJV.) Jeremy | ||
| Esther Registered user Username: Esther Post Number: 97 Registered: 5-2004 |
But what law did Christ change? Matt 5 21"You have heard that the ancients were told, 'YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT MURDER' and 'Whoever commits murder shall be liable to the court.' 22"But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever says to his brother, 'You good-for-nothing,' shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever says, 'You fool,' shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell. here He's quoting from the 10c's. I agree with Melissa 100% on this on Quote: " ***************************** Elsewhere there was a great question....if there is no marriage in heaven, why is there a need for a law against coveting someone's wife, or committing adultery? It's already been asked that if there is no day/night, how is the 7th day rotation going to be kept? The 10 commandments said not to commit adultery, but Jesus said "don't lust", the 10 Cs said don't commit murder, Jesus said "don't hate"... so which is it? To say that the 10 Cs are the moral, eternal law creates quite a quandry from my way of thinking. If the 10 Cs are what I need to follow, then I can ignore what Jesus said, I can hate everyone and be in line with the 10 Cs which is the "eternal" law? I can do some pretty awful things and still fit in line with the 10 Cs. I can be a homosexual, since that's not in the 10 Cs. One can be involved with incest, since that's not in the 10Cs. See why I think the 10 Cs are weak and faulty?? " ************************************ I also think that what Jesus says above is very significant...notice: "and whoever says, 'You fool,' shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell" Jesus didn't say WOULD go to hell, but is guilty enough. The point is...even God, in commanding the children of Israel to slay others, was commanding them to break the 10c's. If this was truly moral law that was binding on salvation...how could He have had them do that? I believe Colleen has said before that we are guilty just by being born. He could send us all to hell after our first breath (probably before). That's why He's God. He gives us what we don't deserve (grace) and doesn't give us what we do deserve (mercy). We can never uphold any moral law. Christ came to show how to fulfill it in love...while we can never achieve any requirement of any law...Christ fulfilled them for us, and through Him and God's wisdom, is salvation complete for those who believe. 1 Cor 1: 18For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19For it is written, "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and the cleverness of the clever I will set aside." 20Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21FOR SINCE IN THE WISDOM OF GOD THE WORLD THROUGH ITS WISDOM DID NOT COME TO KNOW GOD, GOD WAS WELL-PLEASED THROUGH THE FOOLISHNESS OF THE MESSAGE PREACHED TO SAVE THOSE WHO BELIEVE. 22For indeed Jews ask for signs and Greeks search for wisdom; 23but we preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block and to Gentiles foolishness, 24but to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men. 26For consider your calling, brethren, that there were not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble; 27but God has chosen the foolish things of the world to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to shame the things which are strong, 28and the base things of the world and the despised God has chosen, the things that are not, so that He may nullify the things that are, 29so that no man may boast before God. 30But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption, | ||
| Truthseeker2004 Registered user Username: Truthseeker2004 Post Number: 12 Registered: 12-2004 |
Jesus showed us that the law was not only what we must show by outward actions....but also what we think inwardly.....The law to not commit adultery was expanded to show that even thinking upon such things was a violation against God's law. The bible tells us that sin is the transgression of the law..What law that is transgressed results in sin? Certainly not the ceremonial law as that is of no effect...Certainly not the civil law of the Jewish people as we are Gentiles and now there are neither greek nor jew in Christ....There is only one law left, that if transgressed...results in sin.....It can only be the 10 commandments. I know that everyone says we are no longer under the law..but under grace..but think about this...If you are pulled over for speeding and the officer pardons you or shows you grace by forgiving you of your transgression..does that mean that once you get back on the road that you are free from the law? Certainly not.....The next time that officer pulls you over for the same violation you will find out that the law has not been made void by grace. The law and grace complement each other perfectly..God's love and grace lead us to humble obedience to Him. It's the same way with Christ..The moral law is a mirror of God's reflection. His character NEVER changes... The law was our teacher..It showed us our sin or we would never have known what sin is....Now that law remains as a mirror to remind us of sin in our lives...Every sin on the face of the earth can find its roots in the breaking of one of those ten commandments. 1jo 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. The good truth is that we can be victorious over sin(transgression of the law) because the bible says "1jo 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. " | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 125 Registered: 7-2004 |
The 10 Commandments was only a shadowy reflection of God's character, but God is so much more! Like several of the above posts pointed out, sin is so much more than transgression of the 10 Commandments! In the story of the Good Samaritan in Luke 10, the priest and the Levite were "holy" people. They were not breaking any of the 10 Commandments to pass by the victim. However, only the Samaritan showed the love of God by taking care of the robbed man. It's all about Who is in us, not making sure we can check off all the right stuff on our list, be it the 10 Commandments list or any other list. Galatians 6:2 says we fulfill the law of Christ by bearing one another's burdens. I have run across SDA's who, if you ask them what the "law of Christ" is, will automatically say "the 10 Commandments." It's not! It's so much more than that--it is loving others like God has loved us. This will be shown in attitude and in loving service to others. This will not be shown by smugly distancing ourselves from others so that we're less likely to "sin" according to the 10 Commandments. One more point to make, is that EGW and historic SDA's teach we have to have reached complete victory over sin before we can be "sealed" for eternity. Jesus does provide victory over sin, but that victory is not a measure of whether or not we've "made it". I don't know anyone who can name one person who ever reached a state of complete victory over every sin before death (besides Jesus who is God). I'm not looking for an excuse to sin, and I abhor sin. Victory over sin is the fruit of having Jesus in us; we don't all display the same levels of fruit or victory over sin. But it's not about "not sinning"--it's all about Jesus. It's about what Jesus did for us freely, and accepting Jesus into our heart. Jesus is the standard, not the 10 Commandments. Thankfully, the only one that had to be perfectly sinless was Jesus, and it's His righteousness and His death that pays our way to eternal life. Any righteousness we attain to--through Jesus or on "our own"--(or any fruit we bear) is nothing in comparison to the only Perfect Standard--Jesus! | ||
| Truthseeker2004 Registered user Username: Truthseeker2004 Post Number: 13 Registered: 12-2004 |
Raven..thanks for your post..I agree with what you say. Much of what is said regarding the law amounts to semantics....We all know that anyone who says they know Christ....yet murders, or kills, or bears false witness, or serves other gods really doesn't know Him at all...1jo 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.......As God's children..and looking to Christ as our example...we ought to desire to live as Christ our Saviour lived..The bible says "Joh 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love. " John Wesley's commentary on this verse says "On these terms, and no other, ye shall remain the objects of my special affection." While Christ loves us unconditionally, this verse clearly shows that we will abide in Christ's love IF we keep His commandments. In this verse Christ says that He kept His Father's commandments..What were the commandments of His Father that He kept? And why did Jesus say we ought to do even as He did? The power that Christ gives us over sin (transgression of the law) is not weak..2co 10:4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;) I don't think that the Christian needs to constantly check off the commandment list to make sure he is keeping them all.....The bible says that God has written His law on our hearts. This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them......What law is written in our hearts and minds? I think the reason I am such a strong advocate of upholding the ten commandments is because of the message it sends to new Christians...I have seen it in reality that if you tell a new Christian that the law is done away with...their hearts become carnal and their spiritual growth is stunted....I just think it is the wrong message to send to new Christian converts. Everything in the bible seems to uphold honoring the commandments of Jesus....Now I also know that some will say..well..the 10 commandments dont have to be followed anymore because Jesus gave us 2 new ones...but research of scripture shows that the 2 commands He gave us really sum up the 10 given by His Father.....One more thing.....It goes against God's character to do away with the law written by His finger and kept in His ark. The bible says "Isa 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it." God's law which is His word will not return void..He said so Himself. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 1082 Registered: 12-2003 |
The 10 Commandments is not the law against which we will be judged--neither is any of the Mosaic law. We are judged on the basis of God's eternal, internal, overarching LAW. Of course the law points out sin--as you quoted above, John, Paul underscores that point. THAT was the purpose of the law--it was not for the purpose of setting a standard for us to keep and by which we will be judged. The law is clearly not eternal. In Romans 5:13-14 Paul writes, "for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command as did Adam who was a pattern of the one to come." Two points: First: Sin "is not taken into account when there is no law." In other words, people cannot be judged for their wrong deeds if there's no law to point out those wrong deeds. Before Moses, there was no law. Sin "was not taken into account;" people were not condemned for their specific sins. Point two: Even without the law, they were STILL guilty of sin. "Death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command as did Adam..." Adam broke the command not to eat of the tree. No one from that point to Moses broke a command of God--yet they were guilty of sin and condemned to death. What were they guilty of? Adam's sin which is the legacy of every human being (except Jesus) born into the world. The law was given through Moses so Israel would become conscious of their sin. Prior to the law, they were guilty and condemned, but they were not aware of it. The law was given to drive them to the despair of realizing they were hopelessly flawed by pointing out the categories of behaviors of which they were guilty. The law was added to increase the trespass, Paul says. It was added to make people aware and hoplelessly, consciously entangled in their sins so they would realize they needed a Savior and turn to God for hope in His promises. The law is nothing. It was a temporary "thing" written out and given to Israel to make them aware of their inherent sin of which they had really become largely unaware. It was given to demonstrate the pain and death of a future Savior, and it was given to promise an eventual complete atonement. After the fulfillment of the law came, however, it wasn't needed anymore. Oh, it's not GONE--it's still there in the Old Testament, pointing out our desperate sinfulness apart from God. But it's function in the life of a true Christ-follower is OVER!! It is not the standard by which we are judged. GOD is the standard by which we are judged. That is why we needed GOD to be our Savior--His righteousness is imputed to us. Only GOD's perfection can qualify us to be saved. The law is nothing now that Christ has come. It is evidence of Christ's identity; it is evidence of our hopeless sin--it is not our authority, our standard, our judge. It is not eternal. It was a creation of God. The law, a created document which God fashioned in order to bring repentance and hope to Israel, cannot be the standard of our judgment because it, like we, are mere creations of God. Only the Creator Himself can be our standard and our judge. The law just isn't eternal, John--God is. The problem with Ellen's writings is that they make the law the focus of our Christian practice. That is unbiblical. Jesus is our focus of Christian practice. Colleen | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 1083 Registered: 12-2003 |
One more thing: the fact that the law is obsolete does not negate obedience. This fact caused me some considerable frustration and confusion when I first left Adventism. It's just that now we do not obey the law or even look to it for direction. Now we obey Jesus. We immerse ourselves in His word; we open ourselves to the discipline and healing power of the Holy Spirit. As long as we are feeding on God's word and surrendering ourselves to Him, our paths of obedience will be clear to each of us. I realize that one might say the difference between what I'm saying and what you're saying, John, is simply semantics--but it is not. Looking to Jesus, experiencing the new birth, reading the Bible as a new and living book--obedience is a much different "animal" now! We cannot teach both grace and the law; they are opposed to each other. One brings death; the other imparts eternal life. We must teach Jesus, and we must teach the discipline of growing in Hiom and surrendering to Him. We must teach obedience to His will. That will is found throughout the New Testament, and the Holy Spirit confirms how His will must afect our individual lives moment by moment. Surrender is now the name of the game instead of observance of appropriate behaviors. Colleen | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 70 Registered: 8-2004 |
Actually, when Jesus gave the "Two Great Commandments", he said, "on these hang all the law and the prophets" not just "on these hang the ten commandments". Yet Jesus is bigger and more than these, just as the designer of the Temple is greater than the Temple, and the LawGiver greater than the Law he gave. And about the Is. 55:11 verse, I thought Jesus is the Word? John 1:1-2 says "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God." And even if the Law is what is being referred to in this text, what was his Law sent out to do, but testify to who Jesus is? helovesme2 | ||
| Truthseeker2004 Registered user Username: Truthseeker2004 Post Number: 15 Registered: 12-2004 |
Well...thanks for all of your replies..and I appreciate and respect your points of view....Please know that I didnt come here to argue with anyone..just to gather an understanding of why you good people chose to leave the church..I am always looking for everyone's point of view. I am content in the path God has placed me on..which is in an sda church at present....I am saved by grace through faith and not of works..although I do believe that God's commandments are still relevant in 2004 and out of love for His sacrifice for me..for His atoning work..I desire to obey Him..and that includes the Sabbath..As I said before..I was pentecostal for 20 years...so for someone like me coming out of that environment where much of the bible was a mystery..and with me being as curious about bible prophecy...I soaked it up like a sponge..Until my pastor showed me how to really study a bible..I tended to walk around aimlessly and my faith was weak. I understood God's grace but didnt realize the seriousness of sin in our lives..I struggled with addictions and it wasnt until I learned truths from scripture that I began to find victory in my life after many many years. I am forever greatful to the old retired sda pastor who thought to put a flyer in my mailbox...or I would never be where God has placed me today.... It's true that we tend to suffer more ridicule and scorn in the free world, because we are unique in that we are accused of being lawkeepers and legalists....and some might rightfully see it as so....and indeed some sda's are legalists....but alot of us aren't.....I completely understand grace..I was a saved pentecostal at 10 years of age...speaking in tongues by age 13...I have never lost that understanding..but at the same time I have grown in the Word....and in God's mercy and grace....I guess we each need to follow the path that God has placed us on....I likely won't be posting awhile as most of my questions here have been answered..Thanks to everyone for your replies and may God bless you all!! | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 182 Registered: 10-2004 |
If you're going to use that argument...well the REST of the Law besides the 10 commandments was ALSO HIS WORD!!! So you would have to keep the WHOLE Law in order to use that as an arguement for keeping the Law. Jeremy | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 104 Registered: 7-2004 |
I am convinced that the whole fascination SDAs have with God's word written by His own finger actually relates to the very limited view they have of the Word of God from the "inspiration" of Biblical authors. And I think that this is directly related to EGW. As the number of problems with EGW's writings grows clearer to even ardent SDAs, the approach has been to lower the meaning of inspiration for Biblical authors so that EGW's writings are still on par with Scripture. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 1086 Registered: 12-2003 |
Ric, what an interesting point. I'd never thought of the fascination of the law being related to a limited view of Biblical inspiration before. I believe you're onto something. Colleen | ||
| Truthseeker2004 Registered user Username: Truthseeker2004 Post Number: 16 Registered: 12-2004 |
Well....I wasnt gonna post again but I couldnt resist...........The Bible says to "prove all things and hold fast that which is good!" 1Thessalonians 5:21. The bible says "2Timothy 4:2-4, "Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching hears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables." "They shall turn from the truth." The greatest enemy of the Christian church is not the atheist, or the out-right sinner - it's the hypocrite who prays and sings and yet will not do the will of God! This is why mainstream Christianity looks so weak to the world. In the same sense....it becomes appealing to the world as well because the law is done away with and you can be a Christian under grace without having to worry about sinning..The law was nailed to the cross after all!! Everyone loves a preacher who says "you don't have to keep the law anymore." Todays preachers have become "motivational speakers" , rarely reading out of the Word of God or sharing the consequences of our sinfulness.The Bible says woe to the preacher who compromises truth to please people! We're not to bring God's standard down to fit our lives. The standards of God remains high! The Bible does not need changing - people do! Matthew 7:21-23 says "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? And in thy name have cast out devils? And in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." It's a sad but true fact that most people are going to be lost. Why? They did not do the will of God the Father. What is the will of God? In Psalm 40:8 David answers, "I delight to do your will, your law is in my heart," God's will is His law. Now in the New Testament Paul said the same. Romans 2:18, "And knowest his will, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law." God's will is being instructed out of the law. God's law is His will. In Hosea 4:1-2 it says "Hear the word of the LORD, ye children of Israel: for the LORD hath a controversy with the inhabitants of the land, because there is no truth, nor mercy, nor knowledge of God in the land. By swearing, and lying, and killing, and stealing, and committing adultery, they break out, and blood toucheth blood." God has a controversy. Why? Verse 6 says "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children." Because we have forgotten the law of God! The reason for the corruption we see today is that we have forgotten God's law and are no longer doing the will of the Father. For some reason..and even among Christians..the truth has become their enemy. The best way to gauge a lie is by the excuses required to accompany it. Carnal Christians are totally against law because it requires obedience to the lawgiver. They excuse law by claiming grace......But what is grace? The dictionary says that grace is mercy or clemency..What is the mercy and clemency for? It is pardon for our sin...and what is sin? The bible clearly defines it as transgression of the law. So as long as we sin, we break the law..or the commandments of God...God's grace acknowledges our sinfulness yet pardons us from our sin(transgression of the law). In no way at all does grace allow us to break the law(as many people encourage others to believe to their own peril). We can use laws here on earth as an example..All of nature require laws...Without the laws of nature at work, the universe would not exist...Same thing with government laws which every country has. It's the will of government that you obey the laws. Without law you have anarchy and everyone doing his own thing. So God gives law also, so there will be harmony among His people. When we think of the law of God, we discover it is the only part of Scripture God did not trust man to write. Exodus 31:18, "And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God." That ought to make it important. The devil hates God's law and since he first broke it, it has been his work to destroy God's law and today he has almost done that. In the early 1900's every church, regardless of its name, had within it a picture of the ten commandments. These principles were taught to our children and all society, but not any more. Today people are saying, "The law is not binding" or "We're under grace and don't have to keep it" or "The law was nailed to the cross," and on and on. God's law has always existed, even before He wrote it on stone at Mt. Sinai. Genesis 26:5, "Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws." Abraham, kept God's law, and before Abraham there was Lucifer himself. He broke at least three commandments. 1. The first commandment, because he wanted to be like God. 2. The ninth commandment, because he lied to the angels. 3. The tenth commandment, because he coveted God's throne. If Lucifer was put out of heaven for breaking the law, we're not going in breaking it! What does the bible say about God's law?Psalm 119:142, "Thy righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and thy law is the truth." The law is the truth. Why would God want to do away with the truth? Verse 172, "My tongue shall speak of thy word: for all thy commandments are righteousness." The law is righteousness. Now the New Testament says in Romans 7:12, "Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good." Paul says the law is holy, just, (fair) and good! Now let's see what Jesus says in Matthew 5:17-19, "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven." "Till heaven and earth pass." If you think the law is done away with just look into the heavens and then stomp your foot on the ground. If both are there, so is the law! Psalm 111:7-8, "The works of his hands are verity and judgment; all his commandments are sure. They stand fast for ever and ever, and are done in truth and uprightness." God's law is forever and ever! Why do we have God's law? Do we have sin today? Yes! Then law also must exist. First John 3:4, "Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for SIN IS THE TRANSGRESSION OF THE LAW." Sin is the transgression of the law! If there is no law, there is no transgression! Romans 4:15, "Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression." So the very fact that we have sin tells us there must be law. So what is the purpose of the law? Romans 3:20, "Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin." That's the purpose of the law. It cannot justify or save you. If you could be justified by obeying the law, you would not need Jesus. The law cannot save you! That is not its purpose. What is it for? It gives the knowledge of sin. The law simply tells you what you ought to do. It's like a red light. The red light won't stop your car, but it tells you, you ought to stop! What further purpose does the law serve? James 1:23-25, "For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass: For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was. But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed." The law is like a mirror. God says take my law like a mirror, look in it. If you have dirt or sin, the mirror reveals it! Now, can the mirror clean up the dirt? No. The purpose of the mirror is to make me aware that I have dirt and need to wash it away. If I want to be clean, I need a cleansing from Jesus! Really the mirror does me a favour! So I get cleansed by the blood of Christ, and I come back to the same mirror. The same mirror now says, "Your face is clean! God said, "Look into my law" (the mirror). The law says, "You've got dirt" (Romans 3:20 : Law gives the knowledge of sin). But if you want to get clean, you have to lay aside the law, and go to that "fountain filled with blood" that cleanses all sin - the blood of Jesus Christ. Heres an example. Here's a man who is cheating on his wife. He looks in the mirror, it says, "Thou shalt not commit adultery." It tells him he's got dirt in his life. What does he do then? He goes to Jesus, he is cleansed, forgiven, and justified. When he comes back and looks in the mirror it says," You are clean!" Romans 8:1 says there is no condemnation! "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." That's the purpose of the law. The fact is....you cannot call yourself a Christian if you claim to know God yet refuse to be obedient to His will....How are we obedient to His will? By keeping His commandments..What happens if we lie and cheat and steal and covet? We are breaking the commandments.....What does it mean to break the commandments? It means we sin)(sin is the transgression of the law)....If we do it willfully and teach others to do so...it is even worse for us. I wont go on any more with this long winded post..lol..and I realize I said I wouldnt post anymore but the more I research and study God's word, the more convinced I am that obedience is part of the Christian walk..and to teach otherwise is dangerous doctrine indeed. The Bible proposition is simply that those who hate God's law, love sin. In fact most people who condemn the law don't even know what it says. Believe it or not..you can experience God's grace while living in obedience to His will(what is His will?)......The bible says "Ec 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man." That cant be made much clearer...and for those who say that is old testament garbage..the bible also says "2ti 3:16 ALL(not some or just NT scripture) scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 2ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.....................John | ||
| Praisegod Registered user Username: Praisegod Post Number: 170 Registered: 3-2004 |
John, you say that you are researching and finding truth within Adventism. If that is how the Holy Spirit leads you, then no one here is going to tell you to go against that. However, I do have a problem with you saying that ones here who have come to understand the New Covenant in a different way from you are thus shallow Christians, living by cheap grace and not in obedience to God. This type of statement tells me that you really are not grasping what people are saying. John, are you married? I ask because if you are, I doubt that you sat down before marriage and wrote out a list of rules for each of you to follow. If you did, it wouldnít have been a marriage operating from a love relationship. Thatís what you arenít understanding. Under the New Covenant, when we love Jesus our obedience to his will is at a much higher level than under the standard of Old Covenant laws, even all 613 of them. There is just no comparison. Now are their dead pew sitters within churches? Absolutely, and just as many within Adventist churches as within other ones. But as I look over my years of church attendance from childhood on, Iíll have to say that within my past five years Iíve met more on fire, born again Christians who are passionate about Jesus than I ever did within all my years in Adventismóover 50. John, donít look around; look up to Jesus. If you wish to promote Adventist understanding of the law, perhaps you would be happier debating on CARM or on the forums at Christianity.com. You are welcome here to ask sincere questions, but please donít attack us. That makes me think you came here with another agenda. Praise GodÖ | ||
| Truthseeker2004 Registered user Username: Truthseeker2004 Post Number: 18 Registered: 12-2004 |
Hello Praisegod...and thanks for your comments. First off..let me say that I certainly don't mean to offend anyone here and my comments were not directed to anyone. I apologize if I have offended you in any way. I am greatful to be able to post here and get feedback. I feel as though my tires are spinning here in semantics. The only reason why I am here is to try to get concrete biblical evidence that the moral law was abolished, done away with, erased and nailed to the cross as part of the new covenant and I have not yet found that evidence.When I say moral law..I am talking specifically about the ten commandments that God placed into the ark..the ark that is now in heaven with his testaments(commandments). Re 11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ARK OF HIS TESTAMENT: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail. To the contrary...the bible confirms that where sin exists..the law exists as well...This is as sure as the laws of the universe (1jo 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.) Now my point is that we as Christians do sin..and thank God that by His grace and through the blood of Christ..we can boldly approach the throne of grace and receive pardon for our sin. Seeing that we acknowledge our sin..we must also acknowledge that our sin is a transgression of the law as the bible tells us plainly that it is.....Now if we say the law no longer exists..then we lie...because the law cannot exist apart from sin....says the bible.(Ro 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.) Now would you agree that the law still exists because sin exists? The bible tells us that the law and sin either both exist or neither of them exist..It does not teach that only one can exist. Of course.....Christians are not under the law so long as they obey it.....and the bible tells us that 1jo 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. Christ working in us gives us the ability to be overcomers.....and we can walk in obedience..no longer under the law. The law is still there...but only when we sin...the same as federal and state laws are only there if we break them..To the citizen who never breaks the law, they are 100% free from them. I sure hope you get where I am going with this..I am not saying that the law saves us in any way cause it doesn't....I am just saying that we have to acknowledge that when we sin..the law is present too....not my statement but fresh from the bible...................John | ||
| Dd Registered user Username: Dd Post Number: 254 Registered: 7-2004 |
John, I did not read your entire post. It is difficult for me to read a post that has not been spaced with paragraphs...maybe it's just my computer screen...maybe old age...  At any rate I found myself a bit lost. This debate you are having started way, way back. Paul was constantly defending himself against people who accused him of having "cheap grace" - those holding on to the law. He even had to stand up to Peter - the same wishy washy guy who swore he'd stand up for Jesus but denied him, the same guy who was given specific directions to reach out to the gentiles but later would not associate with them. It did not start with the SDA church and those of us who have come to feel the religion's doctrines have seperated us from the joy of complete rest in Jesus. If you have been under the bondage and have broken free, as I have, you know better what a treasured privilege freedom really is. "It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefuore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a YOKE of slavery." (Galatians 5:1). Jesus said His yoke is easy (Matt. 11:28 - 30) and that is my new theme in life (in fact it is my favorite hymn)...GIVE ME JESUS! If you want to read a great book on Grace, Charles Swindoll's "The Grace Awakening" is wonderful. In the chapter titled "Squaring off against legalism" he says this: "If Patrick Henry had the courage to say, 'Give my liberty or give me death,' then the Christian ought to have the courage to say, 'Give me freedom because of Christ.' Bondage is bondage, whether it be political or spiritual. Give me liberty that He won at Calvary or I am still enslaved. Death is to be preferred to bondage...so grant me the liberty He won or I should die! To live in slavery is to nullify the grace of God." Like Paul, I am more than happy to be accused of living with "cheap grace". It means I am resting completely in Jesus Christ my Lord, Savior, Comforter, and Friend. | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 1224 Registered: 11-2002 |
John, Yes, to some exent I understand what you are meaning about Christian preachers being motivatioal speekers. I have heard that type on the t.v. However, I attend the Lutheran and I want you to know that the Lutheran pastors tend to be real get-down, no-nonsense about following the Word of God. In our catachism the kids learn the format as laid down by Martin Luther which includes the 10 Commandments, The Apostiles Creed, the baptizimal vows and a few other things. You can go to the Lutheran website and read Martin Luthers catachism for yourself. I found myself in an Epsispalian (sp?) service recently and the service was stright Bible. As has been the Prespertarian servces I've attended. In fact, this is probably the #1 main reason why I prefer the Lutheran (or the other mainline Prosistant churches or for that matter, even Catholic) is because I hea so mych BIle, which I DO NT hear in an Adventist church. I attended a SDA service recently andthe entire sermon, if it can be called that, was about how the SDA church, the ACLU and Americans United are the only organizations protecting our religious liberities in the United States. There was no mention of Jesus or any Bible texts given at all. Learning the Bible has not been my experience within SDA'ism. | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 129 Registered: 7-2004 |
There is a greater Law than that of the 10 Commandments. It's the Law of Love. Anytime we don't love others to the same degree as God loves others, we are "sinning." That's why it's impossible to be completely without sin, this side of heaven. Like Jeremy has said before, just because we see the 10 Commandments as being nailed to the cross along with the entire 613 laws, that does not mean we think it's okay to murder, lie, or steal. We are still under the greatest Law of all--the law of love and respect for others. Those are the "commandments" that are given many times over in the gospel of John--to love others. Still, having said all that, our focus should be on Jesus, because He will fill us with His love. And that love will treat others far better than trying to obey a "law." |
