| Author | Message | ||
| Goldenbear Registered user Username: Goldenbear Post Number: 7 Registered: 12-2004 |
For me the concept of religious liberty for an adventist has always meant freedom from religious intolerance toward sabatarianism. I think for new covenant christians, religious liberty (especially those leaving the SDA church) comes from a realization that there is nothing I can do that puts me any closer to the kingdom. My assurance of salvation comes from what Jesus did for me on the cross. So I guess that in that vein, your definition speakeasy would probably be accurate. However, are we ever okay? Not without the blood of Jesus. There is nothing we can do by "keeping a day" or "getting ready" that will give us any greater hold on our salvation. I guess that is what I was referring to. | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 1212 Registered: 11-2002 |
Speekeasy, The term "religious liberty" to a SDA means the governmant and churches are totally seperate, with no ties binding them to each other. The SDA church used to own Americans United for Seperation of Church and State. The church sold the organization. However, the SDA church is still closely involved with Americans United. Americans United, the ACLU and the SDA church work very closely with each other. The SDA church plublishes a monthly magazine called Liberty Magazine. The SDA's believe as the only true representive of God on earth then the Great Commission applies only to them. According to SDA teaching Jesus will return to earth after everyone on earth has heard the truth. The truth is not the Gosple of Jesus Christ but is the truth of the Sabbath. After all have had an opportunity to accept the Sabbath then Jesus wull return. The SDA's also believe in the last days just very close before the return of Jesus there will be instituted a universal Sunday law which means that all the faithful SDA's will be terribly persacuted and tortured (like the Saddam Hussian types on tortue). So, the SDA's diligently try to forstall this up and coming worldwide Sunday law so they have more time to teach all the earths peoples the truth of the Sabbath. That and that only is what an Adventist means by the term "religious liberty". Adventist do not use that term meaning we have liberty in Christ. Adventists do not mean that to mean Christians have a right to pray in public or to have a cross in the public square. The term does not mean that other Christians should be allowed religious freedom. It only, as used in SDA lingo, refers to Adventists getting to do whatever they want to do whenever they want to do it and the term does not imply to an Adventist any religous liberty to any other Christian group because in SDA theology there are no Christians. | ||
| Speakeasy Registered user Username: Speakeasy Post Number: 206 Registered: 9-2002 |
Susan 2: Good description.Thanks for the reply. It helped me understand what you and other mean on this subject. speakeasy | ||
| Tracey Registered user Username: Tracey Post Number: 117 Registered: 9-2004 |
okay, Now with the weekend update.. : ) MY house is a mess, and C came over and saw my DVD cover on the floor of SDA, The spirit behind the church. I wasn't planning to offer it to him, but I wasn't hiding it either. Some of you on here told me, the DVD won't matter but it's good info. for me. So, he saw it,and asked if he could borrow it. I told him yeah, you want to? If you want. He asked if it was any good and I told him, Yes. And that Dale was also in it. he knows taht I personally ordered some of my materials from him by phone earlier this year (his sec'y was off that day) and he knows him b/c I gave him Sabbath in Christ-- (which he hasn't read. He did read Greg Taylor's though; it was "thinner") So, when I was over, I asked him if he would be interested in hearing a teaching from a non-denom, on the 10 C's. He said sure, b/c we listen to others like Charles STanley on his webpage.. Then I fessed up and said "you should know that he is a former SDA". Well, we still listened. And I prayed with him before we started, and among the things I said was Lord, let C be honest enough to say he is uncomfortable with the message and that I am not pressuring him, if he wants to stop listening." We listened to the 10 C's message and followed in the bible. We listened for the whole hour.. (and I snuck and took his phone off of the hook, so as not to be disturbed! : ) ) After it was finished, I said Thanks for listening, I don't want to necc. talk about this, I just wanted you to hear what I believe. He didn't say anything about the message, which is mind-blowingly filled with scripture.. No one had even taught me that way about the 10 C's being for a time until the Seed. the prophecy in Jer 31:31 of the new covenant of Jesus. So, I don't know.. He made no comments except Thanks for sharing that with me and I knew that was what you believed. I told him, but he presents it better than I ever could. he said you have presented your side well. I said really? Well, Mark provided scriptural references as to how it's possible to believe it this way. He said oh. I didn't expect much, I really didn't. Ihave learned, even with C's easy-going personality, his pride overrides the wonderful word of God where he would rather be right and God's Word be a lie, or at the very least "misinterpreted by others". I don't care. I will keep feeding him the Word. and he will notice his strict obstinance to it. I told him yesterday in jest.. Pride comes before a fall.We were teasing about something and he just wouldn't admit something, so I said, Alright buddy, you're gonna fall really hard b/c of that pride! We laughed, but inside I knew that he has it heavily and that was just an example while we were having fun. What in the world did his silence mean? I have come to believe he doesn't agree with it. I know once a girl told me some personal opinions that I didn't agree with so I just kinda went "hm, hm" listening.. My silence meant I didn't agree. But at other times, I have learned something new and I have been mind blown and have not had words to speak. Unfortunately, I don't think the latter is C's situation. But at least no arguing. I know, I know!.. Give C to God. | ||
| Tracey Registered user Username: Tracey Post Number: 118 Registered: 9-2004 |
okay, Now with the weekend update.. : ) MY house is a mess, and C came over and saw my DVD cover on the floor of SDA, The spirit behind the church. I wasn't planning to offer it to him, but I wasn't hiding it either. Some of you on here told me, the DVD won't matter but it's good info. for me. So, he saw it,and asked if he could borrow it. I told him yeah, you want to? If you want. He asked if it was any good and I told him, Yes. And that Dale was also in it. he knows taht I personally ordered some of my materials from him by phone earlier this year (his sec'y was off that day) and he knows him b/c I gave him Sabbath in Christ-- (which he hasn't read. He did read Greg Taylor's though; it was "thinner") So, when I was over, I asked him if he would be interested in hearing a teaching from a non-denom, on the 10 C's. He said sure, b/c we listen to others like Charles STanley on his webpage.. Then I fessed up and said "you should know that he is a former SDA". Well, we still listened. And I prayed with him before we started, and among the things I said was Lord, let C be honest enough to say he is uncomfortable with the message and that I am not pressuring him, if he wants to stop listening." We listened to the 10 C's message and followed in the bible. We listened for the whole hour.. (and I snuck and took his phone off of the hook, so as not to be disturbed! : ) ) After it was finished, I said Thanks for listening, I don't want to necc. talk about this, I just wanted you to hear what I believe. He didn't say anything about the message, which is mind-blowingly filled with scripture.. No one had even taught me that way about the 10 C's being for a time until the Seed. the prophecy in Jer 31:31 of the new covenant of Jesus. So, I don't know.. He made no comments except Thanks for sharing that with me and I knew that was what you believed. I told him, but he presents it better than I ever could. he said you have presented your side well. I said really? Well, Mark provided scriptural references as to how it's possible to believe it this way. He said oh. I didn't expect much, I really didn't. Ihave learned, even with C's easy-going personality, his pride overrides the wonderful word of God where he would rather be right and God's Word be a lie, or at the very least "misinterpreted by others". I don't care. I will keep feeding him the Word. and he will notice his strict obstinance to it. I told him yesterday in jest.. Pride comes before a fall.We were teasing about something and he just wouldn't admit something, so I said, Alright buddy, you're gonna fall really hard b/c of that pride! We laughed, but inside I knew that he has it heavily and that was just an example while we were having fun. What in the world did his silence mean? I wonder if he doesn't agree with it. I know once a girl told me some personal opinions that I didn't agree with so I just kinda went "hm, hm" listening.. My silence meant I didn't agree. But at other times, I have learned something new and I have been mind blown and have not had words to speak. I know, I know!.. Give C to God. | ||
| Praisegod Registered user Username: Praisegod Post Number: 168 Registered: 3-2004 |
It's a biological fact that women tend to process out loud and men tend to process inwardly. It's just brain differences. So keep praying. He may just be still processing new information, even though he claims he's heard it from you. Praise God... | ||
| Tracey Registered user Username: Tracey Post Number: 119 Registered: 9-2004 |
yikes! I posted that twice! Well, okay.. He told me he was quiet b/c he doesn't believe it. oh joy. In essence I told him his salvation isn't tied to keeping sabbath and that's unique teaching to SDA. I told him to study and pray for true understanding of the good news of Jesus Christ. I told him that for him, it would be a great leap of faith that he would believe Jesus doesn't require sabbath for him to be saved b/c in Jesus is the fullness of salvation. I hate false teachings and I have every right to because it is against the God that I live for. Well, if he didn't hear Mark Martin and I sat right there with him.. I don't know what else to do but stop talking about it. And yes, giving it to God yet again.. God's surely tired of me taking it back, then giving it to Him every month!  Process internally...His brain needs RE processing. And he's so sweet. I can't stand him! LOL! | ||
| Goldenbear Registered user Username: Goldenbear Post Number: 11 Registered: 12-2004 |
You know, my wife has been way ahead of me on the EGW false prophet thing. I was raised in the church and she came in as an adult (23). She kept seeing inconsistencies and mentioning them. When she came across Dirk's site, she had found the motherload. (We have used a great deal of printer paper and have two 3 inch notebooks full) but I kept believing that this was just a bunch of crackpots who didn't really understand. It wasn't until I went on the White estate web site and saw them answering the challenges to "The Spirit behind the Church" that I started to take them seriously. As I reviewed things and started to read their responses, I was alarmed at the article about inspiration. I was stunned that they kept equating egw to prophets of old and showing how her inspiration was similar to biblical prophets. What really got me was their claim that she had every type of inspiration found in the bible. No one in scripture had them all, and then they went on to prove that even the bible has errors... How skewed are they willing to take this. My point is this, if PraiseGod is right, (and I do take some exception to her assumption  ) he will come around. I know that I did, before I really started communicating my decisions with her, I was in my Bible study mimiking things she had said and her insight and found I was processing out. Hang in there. Rome wasn't built in a day | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 629 Registered: 7-2003 |
Tracey, we've talked before, but I do have to admit that during the last 5 years B seems to now understand we are saved by grace. However, having said that, it all comes back to law. I can see him understanding the gospel better, and recognizing that the words he used to just quote as precursor to lawkeeping he really seems to grasp, but it is always followed by law. He tries to append law to everything Jesus did and said. Scripture talks about having a form of godliness, but denying it's power. That's what B does. As Colleen mentioned on another string, he really can't talk about Jesus. He talks about God. He even has made the comment several times that he wished God's words were in red just like Jesus' are...even though Jesus says he doesn't say anything the father has not told him to. He still thinks God's words over-ride Jesus' words. Now that I understand the dance, it's interesting to watch him do it. He cannot accept adventism is wrong. And it doesn't matter what I do, how much scripture says to the contrary of his beliefs, he will not even crack the door they're wrong. Unlike Goldenbear, my experience is he may not come around. B has listened to a tape by Clay Peck about the Sabbath, and it is the same study I had personally done, and he absolutely denies everything Clay says. Even though he can't produce a single scripture to back up his claim. He is now saying Jesus did not fulfill the law ... to which I ask if he's saying Jesus failed in why he came? (Matt 5). He can't answer that, but he does seem to recognize that if Jesus fulfilled the law, some things change. It's a very tangled web and an exhausting dance. I hope you don't get a year or two down the road and wish you had spent your time on other things.... | ||
| Esther Registered user Username: Esther Post Number: 95 Registered: 5-2004 |
Goldenbear, Welcome to the forum! I started this process this spring, and laughed when I saw your reference to your two binders. I too, ran up a huge printing bill...both from Dirks site, and threads from here from the archives that dealth with certain issues...and now, have so much material, that it's almost impossible to find anything. I used to cart around this back pack crammed full of "back up" for everything I was studying. It was like Christmas, finding new stuff all the time, and challenging my beliefs and all, but now, I'm happy just carrying around my Bible. Isn't great how God has brought us all to where we are!! | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 103 Registered: 7-2004 |
Tracey, One of the awesome things about our Lord is that He doesn't tire of us continually trying to take our lives into our hands only to "give it back" to Him in desperation. He knows us, He understands us, and He loves us. You remain in our prayers. Many of us have very thick heads. I doubt any of the formers here accepted what they heard the first, or second, or probably third time that they heard it. No matter how well it was presented. I can't tell you when (or if) it is time to give up on C., only pray that God will guide you clearly. Many hugs for one of my dear friends in Christ! | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 1077 Registered: 12-2003 |
I agree with Ric, Tracey. I just want to add one thing (not new to you!): guard your heart. It's one thing to pray and study with a person who doesn't "see the light". It's another to have your heart so entangled that you're tempted to commit your life and person to an uequal yoking. Sometimes even the spiritual issues become clearer when the emotional "dependence" is out of the way. I'm not saying you should break up; I'm saying that your prayers to know God's will are essential--and I know you're praying that! Ask Him to help you know the truth and to keep you in reality. With prayers for you and C, Colleen | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 124 Registered: 7-2004 |
Speaking of thick heads and how long it takes to see the light, I just wanted to mention about my experience. The first time I started researching and processing questions about EGW was at least five or six years ago. At the time, it just made me more confused. I remember thinking that even though the evidence against EGW was compelling, I just KNEW the SDA church had it right on the "great controversy" theme, the Sabbath and the state of the dead--therefore since EGW brought the SDA church into those interpretations, how could she be totally wrong? It wasn't until about a year ago that I finally tackled it all again and realized not only was EGW a false prophet, but her interpretation (thus the SDA interepretation) of all the doctrines she influenced were also wrong. I don't know why it took five years or so of latent time, but once the ball got rolling again, I was ready and it was quick! I believe it was all God's timetable, but that doesn't mean I understand the timing. | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 1217 Registered: 11-2002 |
O.K., Since many of you are dealing with the SDA issue with the person you most love I will also seek advice on this topic with one of the people I most love. My 32 year old son, my fisrtborn, the father of my grandchildren. Last school year I was with my 6 yr. old granddaughter who was then in kindergarten. I asked her to tell me about school. She then went on to tell me chapel is her favorite thing about school. I told her to tell me what she learns in chapel. Then she told me the biography of Ellen White. She told me Ellen was a very nice little girl and a mean boy didn't like her so he threw a rock at her and it hit her in the head and she was very sick for a long time. In fact, even when she got well from the rock hitting her she was weak and sickly because of the injury for the rest of her life. But, God knew Ellen just wanted to live for Jesus so God chose her because she was too weak to do anythng else, God chose Ellen to have special dreams that she then wrote down so people could read what she wrote so they can learn about Jesus. I was in the car in the backseat when this conversation with my wonderful little granddaughter took place. My son was driving. I started making gagging sounds and I sort-of of went bonkers. My son then had to calm me down as well as humor his little girl because I think I hurt the dear childs feelings by not having an endearing cell in my body for Ellen. And, yes, this little girl refers to EGW as "Ellen". My d-i-l just is board out of her mind while this is going on because she is just learning English so most of this bypasses her and she is a non-practicing Catholic. My joke is that at the time of the marriage my son got the responsiblity of the religious part of the family and my d-i-l got to take over the shopping. That girl loves to shop! Well, anyway, my son seems to have very little knowledge of the SDA religion. I honestly believe he identifies himself as SDA because he loves his grandparents so much and I just think he thinks the SDA church must be the right church because that's where Grandma and Grandpa go. In discussions of religion he gets stuck on the Sabbath and that's it. And, like one of you mentioned above about not wanting to talk about Jesus, this fits my son to a "T". He keeps it in reference to God. The Holy Spirit and Jesus do not come into the conversation at all. If I mention The Holy Spirit or Jesus he brings the conversation back to God and the Sabbath and sometimes this or that meat. I have an opinion and that is that since Jesus is a man this somehow interfears with my son thinking of himself as the top man in the family. However, back to my point. Since he is very headstrong, very accomplished in his carreer and totally convinced that he is right about everything and that if he's likly to be wrong on a certain subject then he won't comment on that subject at all, well, how am I to approach any of this as I am very distressed over what my precious granddaughter is being taught. So far, I say nothing. Do I annonamusly send him Proclamation an the other LAM books? And, if I'd do that he's sure to figure out immediately who sent the stuff and it could cause a major problem with my being allowed unlimited access to the grandkids. And advice? How about your prayers in this matter. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 1080 Registered: 12-2003 |
How open is your daughter-in-law to talk of the gospel? Not the church, but just Jesus? Perhaps your conversations with her and the kids could be very Christ-centered, and you can discuss Jesus' sacrifice and His completed work and our security in Him. It's possible that in time you might even be able to comment to her about the things your granddaughter comes home having learned in "Bible" class. It seems that the your best bet right now might be to talk about your own experience with Jesus and not try to "argue" thoelogy with your son. For sure we'll pray for you and him! Colleen | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 833 Registered: 3-2004 |
Susn_2, You and your family continue to be on my prayer list and I do pray for them every day. Diana | ||
| Tracey Registered user Username: Tracey Post Number: 126 Registered: 9-2004 |
Susan, I have to say that your posts can be soo funny at times (many, no most!) You gagging and just acting up in the backseat was a funny visual for me! I will pray for him and his family. I like the ones that I more lukewarm to cold about sabbath. That's how C's sister is and she is a lot of fun! But now she's getting married so that may change. Guard my heart. We won't get married unless He leaves. he said he would but who knows really. I think he is afraid, too much to lose and identifies to heavily with his family to make waves. He has never been nor is he a risk taker. He's Mr. Predictable, the good one, plays everything in life safely. He doesn't accept me anyway on not viewing it as holy. Even though the bible allows for it. Thank you Colleen. Ric, my friend.. You are Raven are wonderful and thanks for the hug! Raven was in it waay deeper than C so, I remain hopeful that the prayers of a righteous man availeth much! Golden, that's interesting about mimicking your wife and you were actually processing it. Glad to hear that!! Colleen, I haven't received a newsletter from LAM.. How can I find out if I'm on the list? Tracey | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 1084 Registered: 12-2003 |
Tracey, send me your mailing address to proclamation@gmail.com, and I'll make sure it's on the list! Colleen | ||
| Tdf Registered user Username: Tdf Post Number: 19 Registered: 11-2004 |
I could really use your input on an issue that we're facing. We can't seem to reach a decision about how or whether to communicate with our SDA friends and family about the journey that we've been on. To this point, my wife and I had decided not to make an issue out of the fact that we believe Ellen White to be a false prophet. Of course, like you, we have many concerns about the SDA church. But we have found that all of our concerns keep coming back to one BIG concern. We believe that if you follow the teachings of EGW to their full and ultimate end, you will always end up believing in salvation by works. We have completely rejected this teaching, not just because we believe it is false, but we believe it is one of the most dangerous doctrines that could ever be held. For that reason, we have discussed in great detail our concern that our family and friends understand salvation by faith. Sadly, we've found that our family and friends claim that they in full agreement with us. But comments always resurface that make it clear that they believe in salvation by works. My question is this: do you believe that we are being dishonest because we have not shared with our family and friends that we believe EGW to be a false prophet? Did any of you struggle with this, and how did you resolve it? | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 1223 Registered: 11-2002 |
Tdf, you are in a delicate situtation with your friends and associates about if or not to inform them of your departure out of Adventism. My guess is if you just stop showing up at church and church functions some SDA's might out of sincere concern inquiry if you've been ill or something and that's why you don't come. But after you tell them your real reason then you'll just gradually fade from their memory. Family is a different situtation entirely. We are bound by birth to our families. I guess with family it depends on how much they consider individualism, by that I mean if they value each individual member of the family to "do his own thing". When my mom asked me several years ago if I was a member of the Lutheran church and I answered "yes" she yelled at me, "Are you taking classe now in persucating the Commandment keepers in the last days?" I was dumbstruck. I went home and cried for a week. Then I phoned a former SDA who is like a mentor to me and got counseling from her. In my situtation I say nothing about anything having to do with churchs, religion, etc., unless directly asked and then I say the minnium. Also, when the relatives start in on me I generally leave. I have one SDA cousin who has figured out my ploy so she waits until she has me in the car with her and I can't escape. So now when I go anywhere with her in her car I "fall asleep" right away and then I wake Up" when we've gotten to our destination. I really envy those former SDA's whose relatives are far, far away. And, Tracey, my son s not a SDA member. In fact, he seems to know very little about the SDA religion beyond the Sabbath and the food prohibitions. He even often works on Saturdays. Somehow he justifies all this. I honestly believe he identifies with the SDA church because the grandparents whom he loves so greatly are SDA's and he wants to follow in the footsteps of Grandma and Grandpa. |
