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Hiddenmanna
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Username: Hiddenmanna

Post Number: 21
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Sunday, December 19, 2004 - 12:34 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Raven: Also, Jesus talks several times throughout the gospels about at His coming, the sheep will be separated from the goats, and the evil people will be thrown into outer darkness. Good and evil haven't been separated yet.


Hiddenmanna: The way I see it for now "since 70 AD" is that a person is alreadt judged according to where they are at spiritually. We have God tabernacling with us or in every believer. When we do good to other believers we are doing good to Jesus because the believers physical body nolonger belongs to themselves. It belongs to Jesus so He can live or dwell there and manifest Himself through that vessel.

The separation of goats and sheep may just happens every time we do something to someone else. Thats a scary thought!

But if we are in Christ our faults are hidden in Christ and if we judge ourselves we will not be judged. So if a sheep does wrong no harm comes back as in judgment. But when the sinner crosses a believer then they are guilty of doing whatever they did as unto Jesus.

I believe this maybe the ongoing law of the Spirit for the New Heaven and earth.

John 3
18"He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Hiddenmanna
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Posted on Sunday, December 19, 2004 - 8:40 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The reason why all preterist believe scripture has been fulfilled is because we believe Jesus know what he was talking about when he said (all these things would happen in that generation ) Matthew 24:34
We believe The ìKeyî that Unlocks scripture is to believe what Jesus and his disciples have said in scripture and not the traditional teaching of men today. Please donít get mad when I say that. I am not saying you guys donít believe Jesus.
What I am saying is Preterist donít NOT believe the traditional teach about Christís return in the church today. And I will show you why as we go along.
Prediction after predictions of Christís return in futurist books into our future has failed to materialize. One such book was (the late grear planet earth).
And the secular media (who are always looking for an excuse to call Jesus a false prophet) are further discrediting Christianity because of the futurist view.
These people know the Bible batter then most Christians do today and they know Jesus said he would return in that generation. So they use that statement to try to discredit Jesus and his disciples and show that Jesus must be a false prophet. Notice what God said about any prophet who said he was speaking in Him name.
And if you say in your heart, ìHow shall we know the word which the LORD has not spoken?í (when a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD) , if the thing does not happen or come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him. (Deuteronomy 18:21-22)
These are not the words or opinions of any preterist this is inspired writ, i.e., Godís opinion. If a prophet said he was speaking in the name of God and made a (time statement) about something that thing had to come to pass within that (stated time frame) or that prophet was not speaking for God.
Most Christians today donít know this Statement of God is in their Bible but the oneís who are calling Jesus a false prophet do know it is in there as you will soon see.
Jesus was that prophet here that God is talking about (see Acts 3:22-25)
Also notice here that Paul said that who ever did not hear the (words of Jesus the Prophet) He would utterly destroy from among the people. In other words the Jews verse 23. He did destroy them in A.D. 70.
Now as I was saying there are some who know these scripture and use them because of the futurist view to try to show Jesus is a false prophet. See the link below.
http://members.aol.com/just1crzyju/falseprophet.htm
This is just one of many, many, many web sites out there. And the secular world also uses these same things to discredit Christianity. I wish you could all go with me sometime when I go to other places to teach so you can hear what I am saying for yourself.
Until now no one has been able to address these kind of false statements against Christ and Christianity. Preterist can now show Biblically how these scriptures were fulfilled. The futurist view has failed to do that because of that view. You cannot defend Christianity with a futurist view when God said if a prophet speaks in His name the time statement must came to pass on time.
Only showing them how Scripture has been fulfilled can do that. Jesus was not a false prophet and he knows what he was talking about. This is just one of the things the preterist view is all about.
We can now show from scripture and history that Jesus and his disciples know what they were talking about when they said he would return soon.
And do this, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep; for now our salvation is nearer than when we first believed. The night is far spent, the day is at hand. Therefore let us cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armor of light. (Romans 13:11-12) Notice here that Paul says the day was at hand then.
You also be patient. Establish your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is at hand. (James 5:8) Notice that James also said that Jesus was at hand then. Could anything be clearer, simpler, or more straight forward then Paulís and Jemesís statement here?
I can go on and on with scripture to show (they believed Jesus was returning in their lifetime as Jesus promised).
These saints know what they were talking about and they were not false prophets nor were any of them on any kind of drugs. God said over and over again there would be no more prolonged prophecy.
(Ezekiel 12:22-28) Son of man, what is that proverb that ye have in the land of Israel, saying, The days are prolonged, and every vision faileth? {23} Tell them therefore, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I will make this proverb to cease, and they shall no more use it as a proverb in Israel; but say unto them, The days are at hand, and the effect of every vision. {24} For there shall be no more any vain vision nor flattering divination within the house of Israel. {25} For I am the LORD: I will speak, and the word that I shall speak shall come to pass; it shall be no more prolonged: for in your days, O rebellious house, will I say the word, and will perform it, saith the Lord GOD. {26} Again the word of the LORD came to me, saying, {27} Son of man, behold, they of the house of Israel say, The vision that he seeth is for many days to come, and he prophesieth of the times that are far off. {28} Therefore say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; There shall none of my words be prolonged any more, but the word which I have spoken shall be done, saith the Lord GOD.
I believe God know what he was talking about when he said there would be NO MORE PROLONGED prophecy in Israel.
I also believe the disciples who know these scripture believed God when he said he would no longer PROLONGED prophecy in Israel. I believe they believe as God said the (day was at hand).
In short we believe what the Bible says and NOT what the church says the Bible says.
We donít believe what (We all have been taught in the church) about a future coming of Christ because we believe it goes against the clear teaching of Jesus and the disciples in scripture.


The key to understanding any passage of Scripture has always been a good grasp of language, culture, and historical setting in which Scripture was ORIGINALLY written.

The disciples saw one short fulfillment period with two phases to it: a suffering humiliation phase and a victorious consummation phase. Were did they get that idea?

Does the Old Testament predict Christ Return? Any one who knows their Bible will answer a quicke "yes" to the question without realizing the implications.

A good book of the Bible that both Jews and Christians accept as highly messianic is the book of Isaiah. It should become apparent very quickly that Isaiah did not know of any "second coming."

For it is the day of the Lord's vengeance. The year of recompense for the cause of Zion. (Isaiah 34:8)

The Spirit of the Lord God is upon Me. Because the Lord has anointed Me To preach good tidings to the poor He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted, To proclaim liderty to the captive And the opening of the prison those who are bound. To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord, And the day of veangeance of our God. (Isaiah 61:1-2)

Indeed the Lord has proclaimed to the end of the world Say to the daughter of Zion . Surely your salvation is coming Behold, His reward is with Him And His work before Him. (Isaiah 62:11)

For the day of vengeance is in My heart. And the year of My redeemed has come. (Isaiah 63:4)

These are just some of the old testament scriptures and not one distinguish between "a coming in redemption and a coming in vengeance."

This is the way the old testament Jewish prophets have always viewed it and the new testament saints hung onto their concepts. The Jews never had the concept of a second coming. That kind of language is never used by the Jewish prophets.

The language used closely connects the coming of the Lord with both salvation and vengeance (judgment) or reward. Nowhere does the OT teach a "second coming" to fulfill the rest of the things he was unable to fulfill the first time.

They saw one short fulfillment period with two phases to it; a suffering humiliation phase and a victorious consummation phase. They expected the consummation of all these things during one short fulfillment period according to God's prophets That is way Paul and James both said that the Lord was at hand (Romans 13:11; James 5:8-9)

One of the easiest things is letting the Bible speak for itself. James said Jesus was standing at the door! verse 9. If he was standing at the door it was in that generation. These is no such distinction in the old testament or New Testament Scripture between a (first coming of Christ with salvation and vengeance as clearly see by Paul and James.

Before anyone in our day and time can assign verses in the New Testament about the coming, of the Lord thousands of years they must first prove that the (Old Testament Prophets ) clearly distinguished between all these different coming of Christ.

Jesus didn't do anything that wasn't written in the Law, the Psalms, and the Prophets concerning Him. That language is another way of saying,'Holy Writ,' or as we call it today, the Old Testament.

In fact the only place in the Bible which even comes close to teaching a (second advent) is Heb. 9:28 where it says Christ will (appear a second time) .

This was using the Jewish symbolism of the High Priest at Yom Kippur when he took the blood into the holy place and then reappeared back outside the tabernacle (Temple) to announce that atonement had been accomplished.

Then Aaron lifted his hand toward the people blessed them, and came down from offering the sin offering, the burnt offering, and peace offerings. And Moses and Aaron went into the tabernacle of meeting, and came out and blessed the people, Then the glory of the Lord appeared to all the people. (see Leviticus 9:1-24)

Notice here that Israel's sins were not forgiven until Aaron the High Priest came out of the tabernacle to bless the people verses 22,23 Every Jewish Christian understood simply that the second reappearance of Christ our High Priest would be during the same age..unto salvation. so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time apart from sin, for salvation. (see Hebrews 9:27-28) "For yet a little while, And He who is coming will come and will not tarry. (see Hebrews 10:37)

The Jews never had the concept of more then one coming with two phases to it and since it was the Jews who first taught the notion of a Messiah via the Jewish prophets it seems quite reasonable to respect their inspired witting.

The early church understood this to be simply a reappearance during His one-and only advent announcing that atonement had been accomplished. (See Hebrews 9:24-28) They saw one short fulfillment period with two phases to it and this is the same way the Jews have always viewed it. (Isaiah 63:4)

Now I am not here to make anyone come over to the preterist view. I am just showing you the problems we see with the futurist view.

Beside being called a false prophet this view is also one of the reasons why the Jews don't believe Jesus is their their Messiah, since the Old Testament Jewish prophets NEVER taught a second coming of the Messiah in the first place that would accomplish redemption, and judgement, many generations away.

Notice how various will know Jewish writer express this. The Jew refused to accept the excuse that the major prophecies concerning the Messiah will only be fulfilled in a "second coming." ( He expects the Messiah to complete his mission in his first attempt.) [The Real Messiah Reprinted from Jewish Youth, June 1973 page 15.]

The full establishment of the Kingdom could not be delayed. (The Real Messiah. Reprinted from Jewish Youth, June 1973. page 15).

Since Jesus did not fulfill the most important Messianic prophecies, they expected him to return to complete this task in a "second coming." At first, Christians expected that this (second coming) would come very shortly...in their lifetime. When their prayer was not an answered they began to hope that it would come a thousand years after Jesus' death. This was the millennium or thousand years kingdom.

Finally after a thousand years passed and Jesus still had not returned, (they postponed his second coming to an indefinite time). We therefore see that the (early Christians were forced to radically alter the Jewish concept of the Messiah in order to explain Jesus failure). This compounded with the pagan influence in the (early church, gave birth to a Messianic concept totally alien to Judaism. [Pinchas Stolper, ed. pages 32, 33}


You will discover that when ever any really strong question [such as why Jesus hasn't fulfilled all Messianic prophecies]..is asked [of the Christians], the (standard answer is that it refers to the second coming). It therefore becomes extremely important to ascertain the validity of this claim. The success of the Christian claim or its failure ( rest to a very large extent on the theory of the second coming).It is clearly an answer born of desperation. [Samuel Levin. You Take Jesus, I will Take God. Los Angeles 1980. Page 15]

A vital point, totally ignored, is that the Jewish prophecy never implied two comings divided by centuries. (see Isa. 35:4-6, 40:10-11, 61:1-2, 62:11, 63:1-6, 66:6-16; Zech. 14; and Mal.4:1-6)

Hiddenmanna
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Posted on Sunday, December 19, 2004 - 8:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Promise of a Soon Coming.

Preterists like to point out that Jesus and the disciples stated that the kingdom was near and at hand. What they often ignore is that this same formula was used in the Old Testament in instances where the eventual fulfillment was a long way off.



A common response to these Biblical statements of the imminence of the kingdom in the first century is this: "Well, yes, the Bible said the kingdom was coming soon, but what you often ignore is that this same formula was used in the Old Testament in instances where the eventual fulfillment was a long way off.

Is there anything wrong with these statements? If God does not keep the WHEN part of his promises, he has not kept his promise! (Deuteronomy 18:21-22) The Bible has a standard of determining the validity of a prophet! We today need to be far more familiar with scripture.

Our point is that the Bible is not a book that used words normally meaning at hand to mean a long time! When God said something was NOT near, it really was not near! I shall fully demonstrate this below.

Here is a question to consider: if God is in the practice of saying something is imminent when in reality it may not transpire for centuries, why is there not one single Old Covenant prophecy of the kingdom that said it was "at hand?" Daniel said the kingdom would be established in the days of the Roman empire; he called it "the last days," 2:28.

In other words, God did not allow his prophets to say the kingdom was at hand until it was REALLY AT HAND! It would have been something less than honest if God had said the kingdom was imminent when it was really hundreds of years away!

It is one thing for God to promise something and not give any indication as to when he would fulfill the promise, for then man has no indication of when to expect fulfillment. It is an entirely different thing for God to indicate a time frame for fulfillment and not bring the promise to fulfillment in that indicated time frame! This involves a basic attribute of the nature of God.

In Numbers 24:17-18 Balaam the prophet made a prediction of Christ's coming: "I see him but not now, I behold him but not near." Notice he said Christ's coming was NOT NEAR; IT WAS NOT AT HAND. Why did he say this? Because Christ's coming was over 1400 years away, and 1400 years really is a long time! Here is a concrete example where God referred to a long time as just that.

This is an important question in light of the traditional interpretations of Revelation. Daniel was told to seal up his vision because the time for its fulfillment was a long time away--365 years. John was specifically told NOT TO SEAL UP HIS VISION BECAUSE WHAT HE SAW WAS AT HAND! John is told his vision, not part of his vision, was "at hand" and "must shortly come to pass!" Reader, did God call the 365 years for the fulfillment of Daniel's prophecy a "long time" and call the fulfillment of Revelation, which most commentators say has not been fulfilled after 2000 years so far, "at hand?" To say the least, this would hardly be consistent!

Many do not realize the Bible gives an example of man attempting to change the meaning of time words used by God; and God's response.

In Ezekiel 7, God through Ezekiel said the Day of the Lord was at hand. The Day of the Lord in this context was when God used Babylon to punish Israel for her sin. This is the concept of the Day of the Lord; it is not an "end of time" idea. It is when God used a nation to punish another as it related to his chosen people.

In chapter 11 Israel responded to the threat of coming judgment. They insisted that although Ezekiel said it was at hand it was really not. It was time to build houses, not worry about judgment. One can almost hear some of those people: "Well, yes, Ezekiel has said the Day of the Lord is at hand, but after all, 'one day is with the Lord as a thousand years and a thousand years is as a day,' Psalms 90:4"

When Israel "elasticized" God's words of imminence into relativity, ambiguity and meaning-less-ness, God responded. In Ezekiel 12:21ff, [Please, take the time to get your Bible and read it for yourself!] Adonai told Ezekiel to tell Israel that her days of changing the time for his predictions were over. He had said judgment was at hand; Israel said it was not at hand. Jehovah would not tolerate it.

Ezekiel was instructed to tell Israel that in that generation judgment would fall just as Jehovah had indicated when he said it was at hand. [Have you read those verses for yourself yet? If not, why not do it right now and see for yourself that what we are saying is true?] What we have then, is an example of man saying that while God had said something was imminent it really was not; it was for a long time off. We have God's response; when God said "at hand" he meant "at hand!" He did not mean hundreds or thousands of years; he meant "soon!"

Another example of man changing the meaning of God's time words is in Amos 6:3. God warned Israel the time had come for her to be judged, 8:2, Hosea 1:4. In spite of the warnings Israel "put far off the evil day." Isaiah 56:12 shows they were saying "tomorrow shall be as today." In spite of God's warning that judgment was at hand they insisted "All things continue as they were," cf. II Peter 3:3-4! They refused to believe God meant "near" when he said "at hand!" As a result God said "Woe" to them!

Reader, what is the practical difference between Israel of Old denying "at hand" meant "soon," and Bible students today who read the New Testament time statements and say they did not mean "soon?" What is the difference between those in Isaiah's day who denied the warnings of imminent judgment, saying life was going to go on as usual, and those today who read the time statements made in the first century and say the predicted events were not truly imminent? Those who deny the first century application of the at hand time statements of the New Testament are doing the same thing as the Israelites of Old--denying that "at hand" meant "soon!"

Upon what basis can one acknowledge that God condemned Israel for changing "at hand" into a "long time" and then think it is justifiable for modern man to do so when studying the New Testament? Israel of old apparently argued that time doesn't mean anything to God.
Raven
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Posted on Sunday, December 19, 2004 - 8:46 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

There sure is a lot to go through in your posts, Hiddenmanna! I was looking at a full preterist website to see if I could find a little more information about what is believed. From what I was reading, it looks like on that website, full preterists don't believe in the Trinity. Instead they believe the Holy Spirit is Jesus Christ in His spiritual body. Is that true of all full preterists?

My first thought about the full preterist view is that it seems more depressing than the pre-millenialist view! The pre-millenialist view makes people wait 1,000 years after Jesus returns to completely remove sin. Looks like with the full preterist view, this is it. Can't physically escape the curse of sin until we physically die. That's scary and depressing to me.
Speakeasy
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Posted on Monday, December 20, 2004 - 8:04 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

To me the Preterist beliefe is just that a theory and leaves out alot of factual things. Much of the Preterist believe that the Book of Revelations and Daniel and many of the other books in the bible are just symbols and not to be taken literally. I also believe this as well. We know when John wrote "A rider on a horse....." we know that the horse is not a man on a horse that is in the clouds and all can see him ridding in the sky. So yes there is much symbolisium but if in the preterist view that all of the books of prophesy have been fullfilled and are just symbols. Then the church and believers as a whole have been lift out and the basic's of the bible as well could be just symbol's. Meaning did Jesus really Die? Did Jesus really Heal people? Is Jesus really the son of God? These also could be just symbols. If all of the endtime prophesy's are done and over. The Judgements and casting the Devil into the lake of fire for ever did not work like the bible says. Sin is more and more on the rise murders,rap,Wars,famines and so on. Were is Jesus on earth if all of this has taken place? Were is his kingdom? The bible says all will see him! Have any of us seen him? That we will have perfected Bodys? This sounds like the Latter Day Saints type of theory. Maybe the 144,000 of the real good godly people are in Heaven and we, you and I are the ones that were excepted but we were not good enough to be actually with God but we have been left on earth and still excepted.

None of this is salvational issues. But like I said in an above post. It sure is to The Bible answere man and Lee Strobel! They had 10 callers in a 15 minute segment wondering that if there own churchs were faults teachers and were teaching faults doctrine. Just by the words that they were saying.

I maybe all wrong but again to me this is not salvational. If the Preterists does not believe in the trinity then there is a problem.

speakeasy
Loneviking
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Posted on Monday, December 20, 2004 - 8:58 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Speakeasy, I disagree as the subject is salvational. IF the preterists are right, then there is no heaven to win, no hell to shun as it's all been done. So, why bother being a Christian? Why be concerned about your eternal soul?

It just amazes me that folks will rip into the J.W.'s and call them a cult for claiming that Christ came in an invisible fashion in 1914. Then, the preterists come along claiming the same thing but using the date of 70 A.D. (instead of 1914) and folks roll over and accept this nonsense!

I have a cousin who is a C of C minister who accepted this idea and he's split at least two churches that I know of right down the middle because of this belief. You folks really need to beware of this belief because it's destroying churches and the traditional teachings of Christianity.
Raven
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Posted on Monday, December 20, 2004 - 9:25 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

There are endtime viewpoints out there that are dangerous and can lead a person down the wrong path, and as such can end up being salvational. However, it is not salvational to have to know precisely which endtime viewpoint is correct according to the Bible, and exactly how it will all work out. There is too much room for speculation! It could very well be that none of the current endtime viewpoints has it all exactly right. (Again, I love the "pan-millenialist" idea!)

In looking at the full preterist viewpoint on the web, it seems to me that there are other beliefs that have to be accepted in order to completely be a full preterist. One of those beliefs looks like it does not accept the Trinity, and that's why I asked about that. Another one, which Hiddenmanna brought up in the earliest posts, have to do with the nature of resurrected beings. I think both of these non-standard Christian beliefs are dangerous and if they have to be adhered to in order to accept the full Preterist view, then I think that is reason in itself to question the full Preterist view.
Speakeasy
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Posted on Monday, December 20, 2004 - 9:51 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Loneviking and Raven;
Great point's !!! You said it much better than I did. YOu hit the nail on the head. Why even try to be saved? What is the point?

Thanks
Speakeasy
Esther
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Posted on Monday, December 20, 2004 - 10:58 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I can't say that I agree at the moment. But I am going to take all this and compare it with scripture. Some of what you've said really makes sense, as I've often wondered regarding the "kingdom of heaven is at hand" vs. 2000 years later, and what?...maybe 2000 more years?
Loneviking
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Posted on Monday, December 20, 2004 - 11:34 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Careful Esther, the Bible warns us that the return might take a while. Remember the verse 'the evil servent says in his heart "my master delays His coming". You are correct though that, IMO, preterism is another attempt to explain why there has been such a long delay. So, it's similar to the SDA sanctuary doctrine which came about to answer the same question.
Helovesme2
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Posted on Monday, December 20, 2004 - 11:41 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

One explanation I was given was that the 'Kingdom' mentioned here is the kindom of grace, the new covenent of 'God with Us' in a deeper way. And that the second coming will begin the 'Kingdom of Glory'.

helovesme2
Colleentinker
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Posted on Monday, December 20, 2004 - 11:59 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Esther, I believe the kingdom of heaven was quite literally at hand when Jesus said those words. It is the "already but not yet" kingdom. The kingdom of God is within us who believe--we are God's children and already seated in Christ at the right hand of the Father. We are already participating in the kingdom and are citizens of the kingdom. We are new creatures whose true home is no longer sinful earth, yet Jesus keeps our hearts at home with Him through the presence of the Holy Spirit even while we're here.

I don't have complete answers for all the questions of symbolic vs. literal--I suspect we're not supposed to have them all. Our calling is to live by faith in the Son of God.

Yet we know that there is only one way to the Father, and we know that Jesus Himself promised to come again and receive us unto Himself (John 14:1-3) that we may be where He is.

I likewise don't have all the time frames figured out. But I know my reality changed when I was born from above, and I know Jesus promised us that He will come again and resurrect us and take us to be with Him. 1 Thessalonians 4 is also clear that God will bring with Jesus those who have slept in Him, and then he will have the first resurrection, and those in Christ who are alive and those resurrected will rise to meet Him in the clouds.

I do believe the kingdom of heaven is here--but it appears to me that we are redeemed in two stages: first our spirits, our core identitites, are born again for eternity, then our bodies are redeemed and made immortal. It's the reverse of the fall. First their spirits died and Adam and Eve knew shame and guilt and hid from God. Hundreds of years later their bodies died.

I don't understand it all completely, but I do believe the kingdom of heaven is a spiritual reality on earth now.

Colleen
Speakeasy
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Posted on Monday, December 20, 2004 - 2:26 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I was alwasy taught the Gospel of the King and the Kigdom was because God/Jesus was there for the Nation of Israel to except. Jesus was just waiting and showing that he was God but the Nation as a whole rejected him then The Gospel of the Kingdom was aimed at the Gentile nations and that is why Paul calls it "The Gospel of Grace" and His Gospel. It's the same Gospel but now the Gospel is for not only the Nation of Israel but for all to be part of.

A good place to learn alot of Prophecy is

www.prophecywatch.com

if you have Sky Angel you can pick these guys up weekly and you can email them any question and the main people will get back with you as soon as they can. Tell them a friend in Tulsa that goes to there monthly seminars told you about them. They also have every one of there 180 plus TV shows that you can down load for free if you have a high speed connection.

These are the best people I have ever heard and seen on the end time prophecy's.

speakeasy
Hiddenmanna
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Posted on Monday, December 20, 2004 - 9:00 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Quote: Raven
There sure is a lot to go through in your posts, Hiddenmanna! I was looking at a full preterist website to see if I could find a little more information about what is believed. From what I was reading, it looks like on that website, full preterists don't believe in the Trinity. Instead they believe the Holy Spirit is Jesus Christ in His spiritual body. Is that true of all full preterists?

My first thought about the full preterist view is that it seems more depressing than the pre-millenialist view! The pre-millenialist view makes people wait 1,000 years after Jesus returns to completely remove sin. Looks like with the full preterist view, this is it. Can't physically escape the curse of sin until we physically die. That's scary and depressing to me.

Hiddenmanna: Raven I have never heard of a Preterist that did not believe in the trinity. I would say most do believe because most believe in the creeds other then the timing of fulfillment. The creeds do not mention the Lordís return had to be physical but most creedalist interpret them that way. Preterist believe the Lord return spiritually or appeared that way just like God did in the OT.

As far as Preterist being an organized group, they for the most part steer away from that idea. Therefore I have read that Preterist come from every denomination you can think of and with that they bring all their old baggage with them.

There is one group called Trans-Millís and they are FP but with a twist, they believe in universal reconsillyation which most Prterist do not.

As far as the removal of sin where a lot of people take that to mean no one will ever sin again before we die. Preterist believe that to mean that Jesus forgives us when we sin as if we never did sin. The heart of the unbeliever is still wicked and does not need Satan around in order to sin. We escape the curse of sin through faith in what Jesus did on the cross.

Evil in the World
Fallen human nature is biased toward sin and wickedness. Unregenerate people are naturally inclined to unrighteousness and things that are displeasing to God. Satanís assistance is not at all a requirement for these characteristics to exist within the human race.


What is the stance regarding salvation? Because if you take away future judgment, then where does the need to believe in Christ come into it?
Paul speaks of having a ìcitizenship in heavenî. The Kingdom of Heaven replaced the Old Covenant Kingdom/Nation, and it is an eternal Kingdom. It was ushered in as a ìsubsetî within the human race. The eternal planet, and human history upon it, will always have the Kingdom of Light manifesting the glorious Truth and wisdom of God to it via the Kingdom citizenry. Just as in the OLD Covenant ìheavens and earthî or ìworldî, circumcision was a necessary requirement for citizenship, so in the NEW Covenant ìheavens and earthî or ìworldî, SPIRITUAL circumcision or ìcircumcision in heartî is required for citizenship therein. THIS is what spiritual regeneration via faith in Christ entails. It qualifies us as citizens of that Kingdom, and prepares us to enjoy eternity with its heavenly King. Yes, ìfuture judgmentî is no longer before us, but we ARE held accountable individually, in THIS life (and possibly the next) for our responses to God and His Truth.

We are told in the Scriptures that the devil was cast into the lake of fire where the beast and the false prophet already were (Rev. 20:10). We arenít told anything about the fate of the ìfallen angelsî. We ARE told that the eternal flame of torment was prepared for the ìdevil and his angelsî, but the Greek word for ìangelsî is the same as for ìservantsî, and contextually it refers to the JEWS who served Satan in persecuting Christ and His First Century Body - the Church.
I donít see ANYTHING in Scripture, personally, suggesting that the fallen angels would EVER be destroyed or terminated. But their LEADER is gone, and their ìkingdom of darknessî is left in chaos. They can never mount a full-scale assault on the Kingdom of Heaven and Light again. They continually undermine and double-cross each other, as no evil spirit wants to be answerable to another one. They all want to be ìtop dogî. This is why our planet seems to have conflicting conspiracies in it, and why there will NEVER be a ìone world governmentî that will last for any length of time.

We ALWAYS believe the Scriptures - over what I (or any other FP or anyone else) may say. We donít have EVERY detail of doctrine ironed out perfectly, but weíre getting close.


Here are some links where alot of info. can be found:

http://www.preteristarchive.com/

http://planetpreterist.com/

BTW Preterist believe that it all Panned out in 70 AD.
Loneviking
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Posted on Monday, December 20, 2004 - 11:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

HiddenManna wrote:
THIS is what spiritual regeneration via faith in Christ entails. It qualifies us as citizens of that Kingdom, and prepares us to enjoy eternity with its heavenly King.
------------------------------------------------
Well, here you've trapped yourself. If the preterist viewpoint of symbology is followed to it's end then there will be no eternity to enjoy with the King. It's merely symbolic of an enduring (but invisible) kingdom here on this earth. The kingdom never ends, but neither does the enduring problem of sin on this earth.

Can't see any reason not to 'eat, drink and be merry' if Jesus didn't mean it when He said 'lo, I go to prepare a place for you and if I go to prepare a place for you I will return again and receive you unto myself that where I am you may be also'.

I'm not prepared to deepsix the solid rock of ancient Christianity for this heresy.....
Speakeasy
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Posted on Tuesday, December 21, 2004 - 6:34 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Loneviking.... Great post. I think you have exposed something that should cause much concern.

Also isn't it funny that the person that started this said That he did not want to debate this subject. But he is addressing any all posts.

I to am NOT prepared to chunk out what our for fathers of the church as laid the foundation on what we know on this subject. Why do groups do these things and have hidden hooks in saying "that these things qualifies us as citizens of the Kingdom" why do people want to get other's into there camp and not just get people to be saved and except the Gospel as Paul states so clearly what it is. And these groups or people all they do is pit one group against another.

speakeasy
Raven
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Great post, Speakeasy. I tend to agree with Colleen, that "It is the 'already but not yet' kingdom." Clearly eternal life and the kingdom of God living in us begins the moment we are born again, but thankfully there's a lot more to come!

I just can't ignore I Thessalonians 4 and I Corinthians 15 where both say that at the last trumpet we will all be changed. Both of these references state that not all will die, but all will be changed. According to full preterist, eventually all do have to die or the spiritual body will not be given. According to I Thessalonians 4 and I Corinthians 15, when immortal, incorruptible bodies are given, it is at the last trumpet (last day or end of time) AND it will also be given to those who are still alive at that time--never having died. While the "blessed hope" begins now (at rebirth), there is even more still to come!
Hiddenmanna
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The already but not yet' kingdom was in the transition period between 30 AD to 70 AD. After the Old Covenant world ended when the temple and city were destroyed the Kingdom of Jesus Christ took over.

I had the same concerns a did Loneviking so I know where your coming from. However if you do not agree with some of the postings I have put on this tread then you will not agree with anything I could try to convince you all of anyway.

As far as trapping myself with words I should admit that 90% of what I have posted were written by others. I have just copied the very best that I have read in order for other to understand without read a bunch that may not be as good.

Here are some more that may address some of your concerns without defending in a debate. Feel free to reject every word even if I believe it to be the God honest truth.

Raven this is the best I've got concerning 1 Cor. 15

Paul's Change in 1 Corinthians 15:51-55
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory. "O Death, where is your sting? O Hades, where is your victory?" (1 Corinthians 15:51-55)

In order to understand the change that Paul says the (first century saints) would go through (we shall all be changed) We as in Paul looked forward to be changed also. We today must understand the change according to the Bible and Paul's understanding, and not the traditional idea's of the change today.

What was this great change that the living would go through? Lest start at the beginning of the Bible. In Genesis 2:15-17 God told man concerning the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil "in the day you eat thereof you will surely die." Man and woman ate of the fruit. Did they die that day? Amazingly, most people will say "No!" because Adam and Eve did not die physically after they ate the forbidden fruit. But this is not the whole story.

And Adam and Eve were cast out of the Garden the day they ate the fruit. Thus, Adam and Eve died spiritually because they were cast out of the presence of God. If Adam and Eve did not die the day they ate then Satan told the truth and God lied! God said you will die in the day you eat, Satan said you will not surely die, Genesis 3:1ff. Who told the truth to Adam and Eve? Unless one can find Adam and Eve physically dead in Genesis 2-3, then the death they died was spiritual and not physical. Death in this context means separation, sin-death, (i.e. separation from God caused by sin); not physical death.

In Romans 5:20 we read Paul said the law was added, "that sin might abound." This does not mean that God gave the Old Law to make men sin more ó man had no problem doing that on his own as we see in Genesis. But God gave the Old Law to make sin appear exceedingly sinful, to make man acutely aware of his sinfulness.

The New Testament writers likened life under the Old Covenant to death, because all those under the Law were under the curse, Gal. 3:10. Paul called the Old Testament the "ministration of death" because all it did was condemn; it could not justify, Romans 8:1-3. In chapter 7 of the same book Paul said: "I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. For sin taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me" vs. 9-11.

Can Paul be speaking of physical death? If so, then he was saying he was a physical dead man who was still physically writing, apparently not. Yet he said he had died. Paul's "dying" is to be equated with the old covenant. This is in the present tense. This is the law that Paul labored under created a "body of death." (Romans. 7:24) My point is that Paul calls that Old Law the Ministration of Death because it could not deliver from sin. Paul had learned that he could not earn righteousness in all of his efforts under the Law and all attempt to do so were actually death.

It is evident therefore that when Paul uses the term "the law" in 1 Corinthians 15 that his consistent use of the term should guide our understanding. Paul has not changed subjects. Is it possible to define the Old Covenant as the strength of sin? Now if the Old Law was a (ministration of death), what would deliverance change from that death be? Would it be life from the dead? Allowing the Bible to define the change as deliverance from sin, (separation from God) the Old Covenant of Death to the New Covenant of Life, in Christ we understand Paul's New Testament language of change in (1 Corinthians 15:51-55) 1 Pet. 1:23, would that not be a change from corruptibility to incorruptibility?

The apostle Paul says those who were turning to Christ from that Old Covenant were in fact "being changed or transformed (present tense) into the same image (greek eikona) from glory to glory, as by the Spirit of the Lord." (2 Corinthians 3:18) What image were they being transformed into? It was the glory of the Lord! The change or transition from the Old Covenant to the New was a transformation into the image of Christ

Paul is plainly dealing with the same issue as Jesus, life and death. Paul strongly believed that the transformation from death, under the Old Covenant to life in Christ was a change from death to life. The subject of this change was the two covenant aeons." (ages,)

Paul has not changed subjects; he is still focused on his singular desire "the change or resurrection from, literally "out from the dead." Our modern view today denies the relationship of the Old Covenant to death and life ó spiritual life. It fails to take into consideration that man stands before God in relationship to Covenant. To live under a Ministration of Death was to be a body of death, Rom. 7:24; 8:8-10. (separation from God) To be delivered from that ministration of death was to be changed into a new ministration or covenant of life. This is the Biblical concept of the change in 1 Corinthians 15:51-55.

To put it another way, since the Old Law was the Ministration of Death and the New Law of Christ is the Law of Life, the change became a reality with the full establishment of Christ's New Covenant. The first century saints were in a "already but not yet" aspect to of the change. This meant that there was a time of transition between the Old Covenant of the Law and the New Covenant a time when those coming out from that Old Law were coming into life.

When that Old Covenant of Death was completely taken away, this is called the resurrection. This is the Biblical concept of resurrection. "Christ is the end of the law to those who believe," Rom. 10:4. But the Law would pass when fulfilled and the Hebrew writer says it was at that time growing old and was ready to vanish away, Hebrews 8:13. To Paul and his readers this was a futuristic element of the change. As we have seen earlier, the Biblical definition of life and death, in the context is covenants and Jesus' redemptive work, from death caused by sin, i.e. separation from God.

Since Paul's context for the living is change, in (1 Corinthians 15:51-55) that change is life forever in the very presence God under the new covenant.
__________________

Many teach these earthly bodies will be turn into something that cannot die. However in Isaiah 65 concerning the New Heaven and Earth people still die and sinners are accursed. Just like today.
The change is life that is put in our vessels (bodies) so that we can take hold of eternal life.

Here is a verse that can help explain what the scripture is referring to from the Old Testament.

Isa 25:7 And he will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations.
Isa 25:8 He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.
Isa 25:9 And it shall be said in that day, Lo, this is our God; we have waited for him, and he will save us: this is the LORD; we have waited for him, we will be glad and rejoice in his salvation.

Life was found in Jesus.

Also the tears from the Law were taken away.

When they in Jerusalem came from Law to grace. (Glory to Glory).
They went from death to life.

The temple Killed, brought pain, tears, death, sorrow, etc:

Acts 2 Was the new covenant that brought life, joy, peace, salvation, etc:

In Jesus name
Hiddenmanna
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Early Church Preterist Statements

There were a number of early writer and Church Fathers who made significant preterist statements. One doesn't have to look too closely to fing some real gems. They have been there all along. We just didn't recognize them as preterist statements. And it is a matter of fact, that it is not true that all of the early fathers were futurist, as many today seem to think. All it takes is some digging in the early writings of the church fathers and do a little research to learn the truth of the matter. The church fathers back that far did not write much about Jerusalem, but some of them did. We will look at some early preterist statements then we will tack a look at the decisive turning point that happen in the second half of the second century.

Here are just some sample of a few of the earliest preterist statements.

Clement of Alexandria (A.D. 153-193-217), in The Stromata, or Miscellanies, Book 1 page 329, in The Ante- Nicene Fathers, vol. 2, placed the abomination of desolation of Daniel's 70th week prophecy, in the time of Nero. He said: ' in the one week; was He Lord. The half of the week Nero and in the half of the week he was taken away, and Otho, and Gaiba, and Vitallus. And Vespasian rose to the supreme power, and destroyed Jerusalem, and desolated the Holy place."

Earlier ever that Clement of Alexandria, was Clement of Rome, who wrote to James and told him what Peter had to the Jews, thusly: " ' For we; said I, 'have ascertained beyond doubt that God is much rather displeased with the sacrifices which you offer the time of sacrifices having now passed away; and because ye will not acknowledge that the time for offering victims is now past, therefore the temple shall be destroyed, and the abomination of desolation shall stand in the holy place; and then the Gospel shall be preached to the Gentiles for a testimony against you....; "When I had thus spoken, the whole multitude of the priests were in a rage, because I had foretold to them the overthrow of the temple...;' (Clement, p 94, vol. 8, The Ante-Nicene Fathers).

Clement of Alexandria, Tertullian (145-220) told of how the coming of Christ and the destruction of Jerusalem was a fulfillment of predictions that had been made in Daniel 9:26. He said: Accordingly the times must be inquired into of the predicted and future nativity of the Christ, and of His passion and of the extermination of the city of Jerusalem, that is, its devastation. For Daniel says, that 'both the holy city and the holy place are exterminated together with the coming Leader, and that the pinnacle is destroyed unto ruin; And so the times of the coming Christ, the leader, must be inquired into, which we shall trace in Daniel; and, after computing them, shall prove Him to be come, even on the ground of the times prescribed, of the consequences which were ever announced as to follow His advent; in order that we may believe all to have been as well fulfilled as foreseen. "In such wise, therefore, did Daniel predict concerning Him, as to show both when and in what time He was to set the nations free; and how, after the passion of the Christ, that city had to be exterminated;, (The Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 3, p. 158).

Tertullian was also a preterist in his interpretations of Zechariah 14:4. He said, " 'But at night He went out to the Mount of Olives; For thus had Zechariah pointed out: 'And His feet shall stand in that day on the Mount of Olives; " (The Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 3, p. 417). As one can easily see, the preterist position was taught by various writer clear back to the time of the apostles.

There were a number of early writers who made significant preterist statements (i.e. Eusebius, Athanasius, Origen, Melito, and Odes of Solomon etc). (Eusebius and Athanasius). These two writers were very much involved in the formation of the Nicene Creed. They are not on the fringe of Christian leadership but it is not said these two writers are "inconsistent with the overwhelming majority of opinion in the early church. Here are a few examples of preterist statements found in their writings. All the emphasis are mine.

Eusebius says that the abomination of desolation (i.e.the antichrist, man of sin and beast of Revelation) occurred at the time of the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D "...(Eusebius' Esslesiastical History, Book 3, Ch5).

Eusebius records the statement that James (brother of Jesus, writer of the book of James) made just before (c. 63 A.D.) He was pushed off the temple to the pavement below when he was being martyred for his faith in Jerusalem: "Why do ye ask me respecting Jesus the Son of Man? He is now sitting in the heavens, on the right hand of great Power, and is about to come on the clouds of heaven." (Eusebius' Ecclesiastical History, Book 2 Ch. 23:cf James 5:8,9)

Eusebius says that the abomination of desolation ) i.e. the antichrist, man of sin and beast of Revelation) occurred at the time of the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD: "...these facts, as well as the whole tenor of the war, and each particular of its progress, when finally the abomination of desolation, according to the prophetic declaration, stood in the very temple of God, so celebrated of old, but which now was approaching its total downfall and final destruction by fire; all this, I say any one that wishes may see accurately stated in the history written by Josephus." (Eusebius' Ecclesiastical History, Book 3, Ch.5

After quoting sections of Matt, 29:19-21; Lk 19:41ff and Lk. 21:20,23,24, Eusebius says this about the destruction of Jerusalem: "All this occurred in this manner, in the second year of the reigh of Vespasian [70 .D., according to the predictions of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.... On comparing the declarations of our Saviour with the other part of [Josephus'] work, where he describes the whole war, how can one fail to acknowledge and wonder at the truth divine and extraordinary foreknowledge and prediction of our Saviour?" (Eusebius' Esslesiastical History, Book 3, Ch7)

Eusebius also declares that the Great Commission had been accomplished by the time Jerusalem was destroyed in A.D 70 (cf. Matt. 24:14): "Of whom [Christ], indeed at this very time, ëthe sound of the holy apostles went throughout all the earth, and their words to the ends of the world.'" (Eusebius; Ecclesiastical History, Book 3, Ch. 8 cf. Rom. 10:18; Col.1:23)

Athanasius: "For now that [b] He has come to our real, and taken up his abode in one body among His peers, henceforth the whole conspiracy of the enemy against mankind is checked, and the corruption of death which before was prevailing against them is done away. For the race of men had gone to ruin, had not the Lord and Saviour of all, the Son of God, come among us to meet the end of death." (Athanasius' On the Incarnation of the Word , Section 9 Verse 4; cf.1 Cor. 15:21-26)

In reference to the Jews' rejection of Jesus as the Massiah and their interpretation of the seventy weeks of Daniel 9, Athanasius has this to say: "Perhaps with regard to the other "prophecies" they may be able even to find excuses and to put off what is written to a future time. But what can they say to this, or can they face it at all? Where not only is the Christ referred to, but He that is to be anointed is declared to be not man simply, but Holy of Holies; and "Jerusalem is to stand till His coming, and thenceforth, prophet and vision cease in Israel." (Athanasius; On the Incarnation of the Word, Section 39 Verse 3; cf. Dan. 9:24ff).

Athanasius: "FOR He raised up the falling, healed the sick, satisied those who were hungry, and filled the poor, and, what is more wonderful, raised us all from the dead; having abolished death, He has brought us from affliction and sighing to the rest and gladness of this feast, a joy which reacheth even to heaven.... how must all its hosts joy and exult, as they...look on sinners while they repent...and finally on the enemy who lies weakened, lifeless, bound hand and foot, so the we may mock at him; ëWhere is thy victory, O Death? were is thy sting, O Grave?' Let us then sing unto the Lord a song of victory .. The Lord gives to them at the right hand, saying, ëCome ye blessed, inherit the kingdom prepared for you.' Wherefore let us not celebrate the feast after an earthly manner, but as keeping festival in heaven with the angels." (Athanasius' The Feast Letters, Letter VI. No. 9-12


What Preterist Statements Did These Men Say?

Eusebius says that the apostolic writings about eschatology were meant to be taken in a mystical or figurative way. James seemed certain that Christ was about to come on the clouds of heaven in 63 A.D ( James 5:8-9) The abomination of desolation (the beast, antichrist or man of sin) occurred at the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D.70. They knew Matt. 24 and all of its parallel and related passages had been fulfilled at 70 A.D. The Great Commission given to the apostles was fulfilled just before most of them died in the late 60's. They knew Christ had conquered "the last enemy" (death). Prophecy and vision )inspired revelation) were to cease at 70 A.D. when Jerusalem was destroyed. The OT things were types of the reality that Christ brought through His work, and Christ left nothing unfulfilled. They knew that the feast we celebrate now is a spiritual communion with God in the heavenly spiritual realm, not just a physical feast, and that now we are to sing the new songs in the Jerusalem, which is above. The "Jerusalem above" was already accessible. They knew they had been raised from the dead and had inherited the kingdom.

Now Listen to these suggestions by Kurt Aland....as we discover a decisive turning point in the second half of the second century a watershed decisive for the development of the Christian church. Think deeply on these things.

It was the definite conviction not only of Paul, but of all Christians of that time, that they themselves would experience the return of the Lord; The Apocalypse expresses the fervent waiting for the end within the circles in which the writer lived-not an expectation that will happen at some unknown point x in time, but one in the immediate present. If we browse through the writings of that period we observe that this expectation of the end continued. In fact, we also find ti the writing of the first half of the second century sufficient evidence to indicate that the expectation of the Parousia was by no means at an end then.

At the end of the Didache ("the teaching of the twelve apostles"), from the time shortly after 100, there is, for example, an apocalyptic chapter which corresponds completely in its outline to the Synoptic apocalypse in Mark 13 (and the parallel chapters in the other Synoptic Gospels.); here we can only very cautiously say that it used the same words, but that its content is imperceptibly in the process of change. It quite similar to the Epistle of Barnabas which was written a little later that the Didache, where we read: (The day is near in which everything will perish together with the evil. The Lord and his recompense are near).

Again and again the old expressions echo. They echo apparently almost unchanged, but ("doubt about the imminence of the Lord's return is increasingly mixed with them until around the middle of the second century when the Shepherd of Hermas thinks he has found a solution and expresses it with great thoroughness and emphaisi: the Parousia-the Lord's return-has been postponed for the sake of Christians them selves. The building of the tower has not been stopped,) it is only temporarily suspended. Therefore and this is the warning of the Shepherd of Hermas, on account of which the entire work was really written do good works for your purification, for if you delay too long, the construction of the tower may be finished and you will not be included as stones built into it.

The thought of a postponement of the Parousia appears all through 2 Clement but here it is expressly mentioned for the first time. Thus, about the middle of the second century, a decisive turning point occurs one which can be compared in significance to all other great turning points, including the Reformation. Obviously, we cannot fix this turning point precisely at the year 150, for it took a while until the though caught hold everywhere. But a development does begin with the Shepherd of Hermas which could not be stopped-a development at the end of which we stand today. As soon as the thought of a postponement of the Parousia was uttered once and indeed not only incidentally, but thoroughly presented in an entire writing-it developed its (own life and power).

At first, people looked at it as only a brief postponement, as the Shepherd of Hermas clearly expresses. But soon, as the end of the world did not occur, it was conceived of as a longer and longer period, until finally-this is today's situation nothing but the thought of a postponement exists in people's consciousness. [Kurt Aland. A History of Christianity. (2 vols.) Fortress Press: 1985. Vol. 1,pp.89-102]

Above we have heard from a well-known students of Church history who pointed the middle of the second century as the time when a paradigm shift in eschatological concepts occurred. Did all these statements of history just come out of the thin air? These are pretty powerful statements, and they're coming from someone who knows a decisive turning point" when he sees one.

These and other statements made by other students of Church history are not hidded in the dark all it takes is a little research to learn the truth of the matter.come up with against the understanding of these men in early church history and the same time.
Hiddenmanna
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Posted on Tuesday, December 21, 2004 - 9:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The Glory of the New Covenant

Jesus said that His kingdom would come without observation. (Luke 17:20-21) Paul said in II Cor 4:
We do not look at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen. For the things which are seen, are temporary, but the things which are not seen are eternal.
In that day the old covenant was being left behind for the glory of the new. The old covenant dealt with things that were seen. It is filled with types and shadows that were physical representations of the spiritual realities of the new covenant. For example, every blessing in the OC was material or temporal. Then we see Paul saying that through Christ we are blessed with every spiritual blessing (Eph 1:3).
The problem we have today is that the same thinking that caused so many of the Jews to miss the Messiah is still around today. They were expecting the messiah to bring a visible OC type kingdom. In other words, more of the same, only bigger and better. Likewise, today we still have people expecting a really big cubic city to drop down out of the sky someday.
There were physical signs when the kingdom of God came in power namely the destruction of the Jerusalem and the temple. Now, we must assume that this unseen kingdom is here in fullness. The question is what do we expect it to look like?
Some would expect that a lot of really exciting stuff should happen. Really ìwowî kind of things like miracles and the like. However, we must remember that the New Testament miracles were the sign that the kingdom was near. Remember in the day of Moses, the greatest miracles happened not in the promised land but in the wilderness time. In other words during the transitional period between Egypt and the promised land. Yet, things like manna from the sky, the cloud by day, and the pillar of fire by night, and miraculous provisions of water all ceased when they entered into the promised land. Yes, there were still miracles in the land, but not of the same intensity we see in the wilderness period.
Certainly there is an application for the covenantal exodus we see in the New Testament. Remember we see the immature church during this time. The question is what should the mature church in a fully consummated kingdom look like and experience?
Others think that the kingdom should bring perfection. No more bad guys. No more sin. No more problems. Utopia. Yet, is a perfect world ever promised by God? Yes, Jesus put away sin, but we never see in the scriptures that this means we will stop sinning. Rather it means that sin has lost its power to keep us from Godís presence. Moreover, is a trouble free world really the best thing for us?
Of this we can be certain, at the heart of the kingdom of God is restoration of relationship between God and humanity. Even Jesusí miracles speak of this fact. Every one of them spoke of restoration and forgiveness. He healed those whom the Law had shut out. The outcasts even the gentiles. It is important for us to understand that Jesus did wonderful miracles, but is it just as important to understand what those miracles were saying. So, in a fully consummated kingdom we know that we have God and He has us.
This was the heart of the maturity the church was attaining to in the transitional period. They were seeing dimly, but would see face to face. We see this also in Johnís writings. What is the earmark of the father (mature one I John 2:12-14) in Christ? He knows the Father.
I believe this simple truth helps us understand what to expect of the kingdom in our lives. Very simply the outward demonstration of the kingdom is love. That is where we end up. This is the proof that we know God.
When the Lord replaced the righteousness of man with the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus, he removed every obstacle to loveís fullness. Perfect love had cast out fear in humanityís relationship with God.
However, that was only the half of it. By giving the worth of Christ to all, He took away every obstacle that kept us from loving our neighbor. How can we hate our neighbor when hating him has become hating Christ?
Now, here is a philosophical question. Can love find its full glory in a perfect world? If everybody is lovable, what glory is there in loving? As Jesus said, even the sinners love those who love them. It is a good thing to love those who love us, but is an even greater power and demonstration of the kingdom found in loving our enemies? What do you all think?
Hiddenmanna
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Posted on Tuesday, December 21, 2004 - 9:27 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Preterist see Isaiah 65 fulfilled

In Quote are some questions from Doug at another forum concerning how Pretrist see Isaiah 65 fulfilled. So Iím posting it here seeing that these questions are a main concern for people seeking whether Preterism has answer for them.

Quote: ìDoug Josephî Whereas I already addressed this from a futurist standpoint, when will a preterist address the fact that Preterism would have us believe that those people (in Isa 65) with super-long lifespans are existing now, in our present day and age? (i.e. since, supposedly, this is the New Heaven and New Earth in ìcovenantî form.) How is it that Preterism claims that present-day believers are living so long that when they die at 100 years old theyíre still considered infants, and if they fail to make it to 100 theyíre considered accursed? How is it that Preterism claims that present-day believers are building houses and developing their property so as to ìlong enjoyî the work of their hands (for hundreds of years, apparently), with their *offspring [ not ìthroughî their offspring in perpetuity, but actually ìwithî ], without having to die early because of short lifespans imposed by the curse on creation? And why is there still, today, danger from carnivorous animals and poisonous creatures? If the preterist view is true, then where, today, is the reversal of the curse that Isa 65 and Isa 11 (etc) indicates should be here?
*Note: Presently, the ìElectî cannot give birth to ìelectedî offspring!
As I asked of Hidden Manna, so also I ask of you:
Do you believe in literal New Heavens and New Earth, in which the former will have passed away and will not be remembered, and in which the curse on creation will have been repealedólong life spans for people (yet still having childbirth, and still having death), and yet no death at all for the Bride of Christ (and no marriage, and no male or female); formerly carnivorous creatures living as herbivores; formerly poisonous creatures living as harmless (Revelation 21:1-4, Romans 8:18-25, Isaiah 65:17-25, Isaiah 66:22, Isaiah 11:1-12, 2 Peter 3:1-18)? ìQuoteî


Doug the way that you have worded these questions that you have for us has been done so in a way that is hard to answer because it would demand a strawman for an answer. So rather then trying to answer them as according to your questions which I find hard to understand Iíll try just state the way that I see things and maybe you will get an understanding as to how Isaiah 65 can be fulfilled for today.
Isaiah 65
( 20îNo more shall an infant from there live but a few days, )
I would say that a good question for this text is, is the infant spoken of here a baby child or a new born in Christ. If it is referring to either one then would not John 11:25 would apply? If it applies to the natural birth of a child then children also are not accountable for their sins until they reach the age of accountability. So then if a child was to die would he not go to heaven and not have to wait for a resurrection like they did before Jesus came?
John 11:25
Jesus said to her, ìI am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live.
Isaiah 65 ( Nor an old man who has not fulfilled his days; )
Psalm 138
7 Though I walk in the midst of trouble,
you preserve my life;
you stretch out your hand against the anger of my foes,
with your right hand you save me.
8 The LORD will fulfill his purpose for me;
your love, O LORD , endures forever-
do not abandon the works of your hands.
2 Thessalonians 1
10on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you.
11With this in mind, we constantly pray for you, that our God may count you worthy of his calling, and that by his power he may fulfill every good purpose of yours and every act prompted by your faith. 12We pray this so that the name of our Lord Jesus may be glorified in you, and you in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.[1]
Isaiah 65 ( For the child shall die one hundred years old, )
It is possible for a 100 year old person to give their heart to the Lord at an old age and become a child as a new born in Christ. Something that was unheard of in the Old Covenant ìHeaven and Earthî
Matthew 18
2Then Jesus called a little child to Him, set him in the midst of them, 3and said, ìAssuredly, I say to you, unless you are converted and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven. 4Therefore whoever humbles himself as this little child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
Isaiah 65 ( But the sinner being one hundred years old shall be accursed. )
If a sinner was to make it to 100 years old when they died they would come to their end in the lake of fire and then second death. While they alive on the earth they would have lived in a state of condemnation because they did not believe.
John 3
18îHe who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.î
Isaiah 65: 21They shall build houses and inhabit them;
They shall plant vineyards and eat their fruit.
22They shall not build and another inhabit;
They shall not plant and another eat;
2 Thessalonians 3
7For you yourselves know how you ought to follow us, for we were not disorderly among you; 8nor did we eat anyoneís bread free of charge, but worked with labor and toil night and day, that we might not be a burden to any of you, 9not because we do not have authority, but to make ourselves an example of how you should follow us. 10For even when we were with you, we commanded you this: If anyone will not work, neither shall he eat. 11For we hear that there are some who walk among you in a disorderly manner, not working at all, but are busybodies.

Isaiah 65 For as the days of a tree, so shall be the days of My people,
It does not say days as in length of time. This could mean that our days will days of rejoicing like trees clapping their hands. We are to give the Lord a sacrifice of praise.
Isaiah 55
8îFor My thoughts are not your thoughts,
Nor are your ways My ways,î says the LORD.
9îFor as the heavens are higher than the earth,
So are My ways higher than your ways,
And My thoughts than your thoughts.

10îFor as the rain comes down, and the snow from heaven,
And do not return there,
But water the earth,
And make it bring forth and bud,
That it may give seed to the sower
And bread to the eater,
11So shall My word be that goes forth from My mouth;
It shall not return to Me void,
But it shall accomplish what I please,
And it shall prosper in the thing for which I sent it.

12îFor you shall go out with joy,
And be led out with peace;
The mountains and the hills
Shall break forth into singing before you,
And all the trees of the field shall clap their hands.
13Instead of the thorn shall come up the cypress tree,
And instead of the brier shall come up the myrtle tree;
And it shall be to the LORD for a name,
For an everlasting sign that shall not be cut off.î


Isaiah 65And My elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
23They shall not labor in vain,
We will see the results in the people around us who have been affected by the truth we bring and the results is everlasting life.
Isaiah 65 Nor bring forth children for trouble;
For they shall be the descendants of the blessed of the LORD,
And their offspring with them.
We bring forth Spiritual offspring those who have been born again through the preaching of the everlasting gospel of Jesus Christ and His Kingdom of no end.
Isaiah 65:24îIt shall come to pass
That before they call, I will answer;
And while they are still speaking, I will hear.
God is not far away but dwells right within us. He knows our thoughts as we think them
Isaiah 65:25The wolf and the lamb shall feed together,

The wolf was considered unclean the lamb was clean. The heathen nations were considered unclean and Israel was considered clean. God has made possible the two to be one through the blood of Jesus Christ.

Ephesians 2


Brought Near by His Blood
11 Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh--who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands-- 12 that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.


Christ Our Peace
14 For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, 15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, 16 and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity. 17 And He came and preached peace to you who were afar off and to those who were near.



This text could also be speaking of people who by character are either like lambís or wolves. Benjamin was considered a wolf.

Genesis 49:27
"Benjamin is a ravenous wolf ; In the morning he shall devour the prey, And at night he shall divide the spoil."

We live in a world today when anyone ìwolf or lambî can feed on Godís word together without burning each other at the stake because someone else believes differently. All you have to do is go into a Church fellowship and you can see both sitting together feeding on Godís word and eating together at pot lucks. We are commanded to love each other as Christ loved us and this command puts a restraint upon those with a wolf like character that they have to overcome. Only by putting on Jesus Christ and letting His Spirit control their lives can they be tamed enough to not harm the sheep.
Romans 8:36
As it is written: ìFor Your sake we are killed all day long; We are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
Matthew 7:15
ìBeware of false prophets, who come to you in sheepís clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves.
Matthew 10:16
ìBehold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves. Therefore be wise as serpents and harmless as doves.
Acts 20
28Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood. 29For I know this, that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock. 30Also from among yourselves men will rise up, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after themselves.

Isaiah 65 The lion shall eat straw like the ox,
And dust shall be the serpentís food.
They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain,î
Says the LORD.
Satan only had the ability to deceive when the old covenant temple was still standing. Now that the old covenant service has been taken out of the way the truth of what Jesus has promise has been fulfilled and His kingdom has come. Even though people today can be deceived they do not have to be. Satan has been defeated, at he cross for a start and at the destruction of the Old Covenant temple and second appearing of Jesus Christ.
Satan lost his teeth figuritively speaking, and has to eat straw.
1 Peter 5
7casting all your care upon Him, for He cares for you.
8Be sober, be vigilant; because[1] your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour. 9Resist him, steadfast in the faith, knowing that the same sufferings are experienced by your brotherhood in the world.

Isaiah 11
6îThe wolf also shall dwell with the lamb,
The leopard shall lie down with the young goat,
The calf and the young lion and the fatling together;
And a little child shall lead them.
How many times have we seen children of God lead prisoners who live like beasts in the prison systems? Or people of the uncivilized world who would brutally kill people from other tribes?
Isaiah 11:7The cow and the bear shall graze;
Their young ones shall lie down together;
The nations of the world have been symbolized by animal beasts, if this is what it means then we have a cow and a bear representing people from different nations getting along with one another and breaking bread together. Their children may even marry. This was not allowed in the Old Covenant system.
And the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
8The nursing child shall play by the cobraís hole,
And the weaned child shall put his hand in the viperís den.
How many times as children in the Lord have we played around with fire doing things with people of the world who do not believe in God as if put our hands in the viperís den?
As far as poisonous things not harming us read verse 18 below.
Mark 16
The Great Commission
(4) 14 Later He appeared to the eleven as they sat at the table; and He rebuked their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they did not believe those who had seen Him after He had risen. 15And He said to them, ìGo into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. 16He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. 17And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; 18they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.î
Luke 10:19
Behold, I give you the authority to trample on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing shall by any means hurt you.
The answers we should be looking for are in a figurative speech. If serpents, lambs and wolves are figurative, then are not the ox, lion, cows, bears and poisonous things also? The serpent is likened to Satan or the devil and Jesus called the Pharisees serpents and vipers. Could this be where a child will put his hands and not be harmed?

People can be poisoned with bitterness or poisoned in their minds. But in the New Heaven that we are now in we have power to forgive and receive the mind of Christ. We can also speak the words of Jesus instead of have poison under our tongues. Even if a person is infected with these poisonous things it will not harm us because we have something greater with God indwelling us.
Matthew 23:33
Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell?
Revelation 20:2
He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years;
Acts 8:23
For I see that you are poisoned by bitterness and bound by iniquity.î
Acts 14:2
But the unbelieving Jews stirred up the Gentiles and poisoned their minds against the brethren.
Romans 3:13
ìTheir throat is an open tomb; With their tongues they have practiced deceitî;[3:13 Psalm 5:9] ìThe poison of asps is under their lipsî;[3:13 Psalm 5:9]
James 3:8
But no man can tame the tongue. It is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison.
As far as not marrying in heaven and been as angels, no male or female. In the New Covenant, life according to the flesh is not regarded, so then we should not regard whether a person is male or female, married or single. As far as being like the angels, Jesus called Judas a devil ìfallen angelî.
2 Corinthians 5
15and He died for all, that those who live should live no longer for themselves, but for Him who died for them and rose again.
16Therefore, from now on, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus no longer. 17Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.
1 Corinthians 7
29But this I say, brethren, the time is short, so that from now on even those who have wives should be as though they had none, 30those who weep as though they did not weep, those who rejoice as though they did not rejoice, those who buy as though they did not possess, 31and those who use this world as not misusing it. For the form of this world is passing away.
In this life on earth we if we are married we are to be as not. However in Matt. 22:29 Jesus speaks concerning after we physically die, they neither marry nor are given in marriage. And even though He called Judas a devil as he lived on earth, people can be as the angels on earth as well as after they physically die in heaven.
Matthew 22
29Jesus answered and said to them, ìYou are mistaken, not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God. 30For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels of God in heaven. 31But concerning the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was spoken to you by God, saying, 32îI am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacobí? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.î 33And when the multitudes heard this, they were astonished at His teaching.
Anyway this interpretation of Isaiah 65 is as backed up with scripture that I see related. I hope that someone else out there can get some ideas and come up with a better presentation along the same lines as what I have given or better. Dougís question were demanding a literal answer from questions concerning carnivorous creatures living as herbivores; formerly poisonous creatures living and marriage that will not happen after physical death as appose to if married be as though you are not.

What I have shown here as to how Isaiah 65 is fulfilled and we are experiencing it right now.
The question I have for you seeing that you were demanding a literal answer and did not get one. Show me where in scripture your answers to your questions that would have a literal fulfillment.
Speakeasy
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Posted on Wednesday, December 22, 2004 - 2:17 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

so let's say that this view is true and tried and okay. But why did The Bible answere man and Lee Strobel. Say in there Radio Program. If you are being taught anything else than what this view is. Then you are following "A kingdom of the Cults Doctrine" and then the Bible answere man followed it up with and all of what i said can be backed up with my book "Kingdom of the Cults" and you can also read cultic doctrines of other so called pastors Like Benny Hinn and Paul Crouch and the rest of the bunch.

When he said this "He in a kind way is saying that he is correct and has the correct view and doctrin on this subject and all other's are teaching's Faults and are part of "The Kingdom of Cults" This sounds a little strange to me.

Speakeasy
Hiddenmanna
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Posted on Wednesday, December 22, 2004 - 7:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'm sorry but I did not hear them say that. I could have missed it, I drive a concrete mixer truck during that time of day and I could have been outside. I was only able to get bits and pieces.

Don't forget they are promoting a Partial Preterist view. The Catholics have a Partail view and some are Al-mill's. But no catholic that I know is Full Preterist. Partial views have some differences Like one Catholic believes the 1,000 years was in the Mid age and that the spanish Inquoistion was the winepress of God's wrath. So you can see where a Partial view may lead to, Jesus torchering and burning people at the stake who believed a little differently then the mid age Pharisees "Papacy" of the day.

I can undersatnd where Hank is coming from though because once a person becames a Preterist whether partial or full, futurism then takes on a view that has lead many astray. Here is another post from someone else.


Futurist seem be believe all preterist are nuts. Sometimes we have to show them we are not.
Edwards was highly influential in the Baptist life of America. He was the first historian of Baptists in America. Albert Henry Newmanís in his book (A History of the Baptist Church in the United States 1894). said Morgan Edwards certainly did bring ìstrange thingsî to the Baptist people in America in 1788.
Edwards believed that the ìlake of fire brimstone was ìon the moonî! Edwards was a literalist so far as the New Testament was concerned, but not as much as with the Old Testament. Edwards believed that Abraham looked for a real literal city. He acknowledged the Bible was the word of God, while not denying the textual difficulties.
Falwell told about 1,500 people at a conference in Kingsport, Tenn., on a Thursday that he believes the second coming of Christ would be within a years. That was 8 years ago.
And donít forget the Y2K thing.
Jerry Falwell also distributed a packet on ìThe Y2K Time Bomb,î including a video, ìA Christianís Guide to the Millennium Bug,î advising people to be prepared for disaster. ìY2K is Godís instrument to shake this nation, to humble this nation,î Falwell said. ìHe may be preparing to confound our language, to jam our communications, scatter our efforts, and judge us for our sin and rebellion for going against his Lordship.î
Tim LaHaye and Jerry Jenkins, who have sold more than 10 million copies of their Left Behind series of books about the Apocalypse, prophesied global upheaval on Jan. 1, 2000. The Y2K bug could trigger ìfinancial meltdown,î warned LaHaye, ìmaking it possible for the Antichrist to dominate the world.î
From 1998-99, we had plenty of our Dispensational friends searching their Bibles for evidence of the ìraptureî and the end of all things as the Year 2000 dawned. Many books, tapes, and videos were written, produced, recorded, and bought by millions of people, many of whom were convinced the end was at hand. The prophecy know-it-alls were wrong again.
Since September 11th, 2001, even more people are wondering about the end of all things, and Tim LaHayeís popular ìLeft Behindî book series (the first volume of which was originally published in 1995) has profited immensely from both the Y2K hysteria and now from the awful terrorist attack of 9-11-01.
Indeed LaHaye and Jenkinsí book series have now sold over 35 million copies. That doesnít include the motion picture adaptation of the Left Behind novel or the many other spin-offs, such as ìLeft Behind for kids,î the ìLeft Behindî board game, CDís, DVDís, etc.
Fear mongering about the end of the world and the return of Christ have made millions of dollars for men like LaHaye, Lindsey, Van Impe, Hagee, and Hunt, to name only a few.
But now that the evidence of the meltdown and world domination by an Antichrist did not happen what do Christian still do? Mack these men richer by spending millions of dollars on their now carton books ìLeft Behindî series.
Back in the early 1970ís, prophecy author Hal Lindsey predicted the ìReturn of Christî would occur in 1988, Hal Lindsey was wrong, but that has not stopped him from writing many more prophecy books and it has not stopped Christians and non-Christians from buying his books.
ìWho is the antichrist?î is a question that rings through out the religious communities of today. There are all kinds of theories being taught concerning the personality, actions, and identity of this antichrist. We have heard it being proclaimed that the antichrist was Hitler, Stalin, Nikita Khrushchev, Moammar Kadhafi, Saddam Hussein, and the list goes on and on. Of course, these have proven to be wrong. Is it finally time for us to go back and find out what the Bible teaches? The answer is so simple and so easy but, because of our religious training, it is oh so hard to accept.
Those Christians who believe that we are drawing close to the last days are continually trying to identify both the beast and the antichrist. This game of ìfind the beast and identify the antichristî has become the adult Christiansí version of the childís game of pin the tail on the donkey. Every few years, the participants place blindfolds over their eyes, turn around six times, and march toward the wall.
Sometimes they march out the door and over a cliff, as was the case with Edgar C. Whisenant, whose best-selling two-part book announced in the summer of 1988 that Jesus would surely appear to rapture His church during Rosh Hashanah week in mid-September. Half the book was called On Borrowed Time. The other was more aptly titled, 88 Reasons why the Rapture is in 1988. I can think of one key argument why his bookís thesis was incorrect: no rapture so far, and it is now February, 1989. So much for all 88 arguments. The anti-Christian world got another great laugh at the expense of millions of fundamentalists who had bought and read his two-part book. The story of Mr. Whisenantís book was front-page news briefly around the U.S. But Mr. Whisenant is now ancient history, one more forgotten laughingstock who brought reproach to the church of Jesus Christ while he piled up his press clippings.
This is the whole problem. The victims self-consciously forget the last self-proclaimed expert in Bible prophecy whose predictions did not come to pass. They never learn to recognize the next false prophet because they refuse to admit to themselves that they had been * censored* censored* censored* censored* censored* censoreded by the last one. Thus, this * censored* censored* censored* censored* censored* censoredís game has been going on throughout the twentieth century, generation after generation,
God is not the author of confusion. (1 Corinthians 14:33) This is a foundational premise upon which all doctrine is established. It is not the character or the nature of God to have included in His Word any content that would create confusion, divisiveness, and/or ambivalence among the Church.
Nothing discredits the presentation and defense of the Christian faith and makes it more of a laughing stock in the eyes of the non-Christian world than the barrage of failed predictions, imminence speculations, and scare tactics of sincere Christians bound by our current irresponsible doctrine of the ìend-times.î
Hiddenmanna
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Posted on Wednesday, December 22, 2004 - 7:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Mindset of Futurism

What we believe about eschatology effects our whole outlook on life and in many cases our behavior as well. For example Premillennialism is the most negative eschatology ever devised. Things have to get worse for the premillennialist to be correct. You can imagine how that effects their mindset. What is the use in trying to make a difference is God has ordained your efforts to fail?
US history attests to this fact. Eschatology has shaped America from the very beginning. We know that many today think of the United States as the great Babylon of the book of Revelation. However, that was not always the case. In fact, around the time of the Revolutionary War America was thought to play another character in the book of Revelation. Thatís right, the New Jerusalem! Oh, how times have changed.
If you study the history of prophetic beliefs you will see that the times help shape peopleís understanding of the signs of the times. Many of the early colonists in America had strong postmillennial beliefs. They felt that the new world was ordained by God to help usher in Christís millennial kingdom. This belief reached a fever pitch around the time of the American Revolution. The first Great Awaking began about 25 or 30 years before the Revolutionary war. This amazing revival caused many preachers to proclaim that America was Godís instrument to usher in His kingdom.
Although many Americans in that day had a very positive eschatology, most were not preterist in their understanding of the events in the book of Revelation. It was widely believed that Israel in prophesy was a type of America, and that the throne of Christís coming kingdom would be somewhere in the 13 colonies. I suppose the re-gathering of Israel was the migration to the new world etc.
King George took the role of the Antichrist. The stamp act was the mark of the beast. Someone calculated that the words ìRoyal Supremacy in Great Britainî equaled 666 in the Greek and Hebrew. Without a doubt eschatological belief played a role in leading the colonies into war with Great Britain. What was coming from the pulpits had a great influence on the American mindset. This understanding could even been seen in one of the Revolutionary War battle cries, ìNo king but Jesus!î
This belief reached an all time high with the victory over England. It was widely believed that the United States would go on to usher in the kingdom. The year most believed to be the beginning of the millennial reign of Christ was the year 2000!
Although pre-millennialism, the more negative brand of millennialism, was somewhat muted in this time, it had its proponents. Preterists say that the idea of the rapture did not appear until the nineteenth century. However a fellow named Cotton Mather may have been the first to speak of it. Around the time of the Revolutionary War he wrote that the earth would be consumed by fire, but the saints would be caught up in the air before this happened.
Christopher Columbus, who was an avid prophecy student, wrote this near the end of his life:
ìGod made me the messenger of the new heaven and the new earth of which he spoke in the Apocalypse of St. John after having spoken of it through the mouth of Isaiah; and he showed me the spot where to find it.î
In the 18th century Jonathan Edwards said that America would be the land where God would ìbegin a new world in a spiritual respect, when he creates the new heavens and the new earth.î
John Adams in 1765 wrote the settling of America was ìthe opening of a grand scheme and design in Providence for the illumination of the ignorant and the emancipation of the slavish part of mankind all over the earth.î
Even the motto on the great seal of the United States currency may have had eschatological influence. It reads NOVUS ORDO SECLORUM with the years 1776 it in Roman numerals. Translated this means ìA new order of the ages.î Contrary to paranoid futurist beliefs, Charles Thompson who chose this motto did not have secret ìnew ageî thought in mind, but he may have been influenced by the popular belief of that day that the United States would be used to usher in Christís millennial kingdom.
Later in the 1830ís the Frenchman Alexis de Tocqueville observed that American religious and political values were so intertwined as to be inseparable.
A early 19th century hymn expressed the common thought of the day.
ìThe great reform is drawing near
Long looked for soon will come
The time will move both earth and sea
Just like glorious Jubilee.î

Just like the dispensationalists that would follow, these Americans looked at current events to shape their eschatology. For example, America experienced a great awaking just before the Revolutionary War and another great awakening about 100 years later. This, combined with the exuberance of the new nation, allowed postmillennial thought to flourish. We must also add that this viewpoint was being preached from a good many pulpits in the land.
A good question to ask is what caused the change in the eschatological paradigm in the United States to change from predominately postmillennial to predominately pre-millennial? Postmillennialism is optimistic and activist. Postmillennialists had a great deal to do with founding the United States. They were very optimistic about the future and believed it would get better and better. They were also activists and were heavily involved in issues like the abolition of slavery. The pre-millennialists were and are very negative. They believe things will get worse and worse. They are not totally passive however, their thought is that the world is a sinking ship, and they work to save as many people off of it as possible.
A friend of mine wrote an interesting article awhile back saying that the fall of a paradigm begins with an anomaly. That is something the system canít explain. Pre-millennialism began its rise to dominance in the late 1850ís or so. That date should give us a clue what the first great anomaly against the postmillennial mindset was. The Civil War. Brother turned against brother in the bloodiest war ever fought on American soil. The country was literally ripped in two.
The second great anomaly was the industrialization of America. This caused great social upheaval and in many cases fear. Then came World War I, the great depression, and then World War II. Social upheaval invites negative end of the world speculation in every instance.
However, anomalies alone may not be enough to change a paradigm. There has to be one available to replace the old one and someone to present it. Enter John Darby. He started preaching in the United States in 1859. What timing! Things were just about to get bad in a hurry. Darby was a charismatic, tireless fellow with great power of persuasion. He and folks who would come later such as Moody and Schofield started a grassroots movement that grew with incredible speed. Then came the Schofield Bible, and the rest is history.
This makes me believe that the anomaly alone does not change eschatological paradigms. The second great factor is the pulpit. What is being said from the pulpit shapes peopleís perception of events. For example, was the Civil War a step forward or back? The abolition of slavery made this country a better place, yet for a pre-millennialist to admit that anything could be getting better destroys his paradigm.
The same goes for today. For Pre-millennialism to be correct, the world has to be a worse place than it has ever been. And in fact, most pre-millennialists probably believe this. Yet, we could argue that the world is a better place than it has ever been and using history beat them soundly in a debate. So, the perception of events that comes from the pulpit might be as important as the events themselves in this battle between pre and postmillennialism.
Now, this begs the question what is it going to take to get folks to throw out millennialism altogether, and instead of looking at current events to shape their eschatology, look at the clear fulfillment of prophesy in the first century? Dispensationalism will eventually encounter anomalies and collapse, but if we cannot change the focus, another form of millennialism will replace it, and the cycle will continue.
Hiddenmanna
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Username: Hiddenmanna

Post Number: 31
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Wednesday, December 22, 2004 - 7:38 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

(Daniel 12:4) But thou, O Daniel, (shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end) many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.
(Revelation 22:10) And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.
A direct parallel to Daniel 12:4 is Revelation 22:10. Daniel as well as John received a vision of the time of the end. Daniel is told to seal up the book, till the time of the end. From Danielís time 586 to Christ was approximately 500 years. Ok, that is a good reason for God to tell Daniel to seal up the book. Five hundred years is an incredibly long time for a book to be un-sealed if the end was not (at hand) So God told Daniel to seal up his book. Anyway at the end the seal of the book would be loosened, right?
So after five-hundred years (many days) had passed from Daniel to Johns book of Revelation, the angel of the Lord tells John at the end of the book: (Revelation 22:10) And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.
ìSeal notî, why? ìat handî. If Johns vision was referring to events nearly 2000 years to come, the book should have been sealed up with John just as well as it was with Daniel. The visions that Daniel received of the end were referring to ìmany daysî. ìAt handî has nothing to do with events 2000 years to come.
(Ezekiel 12:22-28) Son of man, what is that proverb that ye have in the land of Israel, saying, The days are prolonged, and every vision faileth? {23} Tell them therefore, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I will make this proverb to cease, and they shall no more use it as a proverb in Israel; but say unto them, The days are at hand, and the effect of every vision. {24} For there shall be no more any vain vision nor flattering divination within the house of Israel. {25} For I am the LORD: I will speak, and the word that I shall speak shall come to pass; it shall be no more prolonged: for in your days, O rebellious house, will I say the word, and will perform it, saith the Lord GOD. {26} Again the word of the LORD came to me, saying, {27} Son of man, behold, they of the house of Israel say, The vision that he seeth is for many days to come, and he prophesieth of the times that are far off. {28} Therefore say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; There shall none of my words be prolonged any more, but the word which I have spoken shall be done, saith the Lord GOD.
When God uses time statements to men, He means them.

This generation

Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled [Matt. 24:34].
The word ìgenerationî as used in Matthew 24:34 is from the Greek word ìgenea,î which means, ìby implication an ageî the period or the persons. This word has the same meaning as the word ìgenerationî found in Luke 11:50-51, that the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of THIS GENERATION; from the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zechariah which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, it shall be required of ìTHIS GENERATION.î Judgment upon Israel, and all the things mentioned in Matthew 24, did happen during the lifetimes of many of those who lived at that time. Several other passages in the New Testament where this identical Greek word genea is used, would be (Luke 1:50; Acts 13:36; Hebrews 3:10).
It is unfortunate that some have defined this word ìgenerationî so as to mean ìrace,î and try to make Jesus say that all these things would happen before the ìraceî of Jews had passed away. Jesus was not talking about any ìraceî of Jews. God told Israel that they were to keep the Passover as ìa feast to the LORD throughout your generationsî (Exodus 12:14). What did He mean here? Different ìracesî of people, or rather different periods of time? The word ìgenerationî as used in this verse does not mean ìkind, nation, offspring, stock.î The Greek word is genea, meaning by implication an age (the period or the persons).
If the verse meant ìkind, nation, offspring, stock,î then it would have had the Greek word ìgenos,î but it did not: the word is ìgenea.î An example of the use of the word ìgenosî (which is not used in Matthew 24:34) would be 1 Peter 2:9, ìBut ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation....î Here it is evident that this is the word that means ìking, nation, offspring, stock.î
Another Greek word for ìgenerationî is ìgennemaî and means ìoffspring - fruit.î This particular word is found in Matthew 23:33, where Jesus said, ìYe serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?î But this word is also not the one that is used in Matthew 24:34. A study of the passages where Jesus used this word (genea/generation) shows that Jesus generally used the word in connection with the people who were right then and there in His own time. The places in Matthew where this exact word is used are: Matthew 11:16; 12:39, 41, 42, 45; 16:4; 17:17; 23:23, 36; 24:34. Look them up and see for yourself.
I challenge you to get out a (real concordance) and look up every New Testament occurrence of the word generation (in Greek, genea) and see if it ever means ìraceî in any other context. Here are all the references in the Gospels: Matthew 1:17; 11:16; 12:39, 41, 42, 45; 16:4; 17:17; 23:36; 24:34; Mark 8:12, 38; 9:19; 13:30; Luke 1:48, 50; 7:31; 9:41; 11:29, 30, 31, 32, 50, 51; 16:8; 17:25; 21:32. Not one of these references is speaking of the entire Jewish race over thousands of years; all use the word in its normal sense of the sum total of those living at the same time. It always refers to Jesusí contemporaries. In fact, those who say it means ìraceî tend to acknowledge this fact, but explain that the word suddenly changes its meaning when Jesus uses it in Matthew 24! We can overlook such a transparent error, but we should remember that this is serious. We are dealing with the Word of the living God here.
One of the best verses that I can think of which clearly shows the true meaning of this word ìgeneration/geneaî as used in Matthew 24:34, is Matthew 1:17. So all the generations from Abraham to David are fourteen generations; and from David until the carrying away into Babylon are fourteen generations; and from the carrying away into Babylon unto Christ are fourteen generations.î Here are 42 generations. If ìraceî for example were meant by this word, this passage means there were 42 races of Israel, all of whom came from Abrahamís blood. This passage ought to really settle the matter as to the meaning of the word.
Many irrelevant meanings have been given to this word ìgenerationî by many different expositors. None of them seem reasonable when the proper definition is considered. ëVerily I say unto you, this generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled: Forty years later Jerusalem was destroyed!

Matthew 24:34 is from the Greek word ìgenea,î which means, ìby implication an ageî the period or the persons.
New English ìI tell you this; the present generation will live to see it all.î
Todayís English Version: ìRemember ëthis! All these things will happen before the people now living have all died.î
Moffattís Translation: ìI tell you truly, the present generation will not pass away, till all this happens.
Weymouthís Translation: ìI tell you in solemn truth that the present generation will certainly not pass away until all this has taken place.î
Colleentinker
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Username: Colleentinker

Post Number: 1134
Registered: 12-2003
Posted on Wednesday, December 22, 2004 - 11:45 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hiddenmanna, This forum really is not the place for extended posts about preterism. The purpose of this board is to provide a place of support, prayer, and discussion for people who are leaving or questioning Adventism.

There are other message boards where your doctrinal position can be debated, but this isn't the right place for lengthy discussions of your interpretations.

If you have questions or comments regarding Adventism, we welcome them, but these lengthy posts are beyond the scope of this board.

Colleen
Hiddenmanna
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Username: Hiddenmanna

Post Number: 32
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Thursday, December 23, 2004 - 7:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Fair enough Colleen, I will take them there. I appreicate the time people here took to read them and I will stop as of now.

If any wish to discuss Preterism further with me you can reach me at this forum link under the same name.

http://newjerusalemministriesboards.com/index.php?s=dc2aea6d704683d9eb306d2adb42b0b6

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