| Author | Message | ||
| Truthseeker2004 Registered user Username: Truthseeker2004 Post Number: 28 Registered: 12-2004 |
amen goldenbear.... Chris...I got thinking about your analogy and it is an excellent example for us......An earthly marriage is a fine example for Christians of the marriage between Christ and the church, between Christ and each indivudual who accepts Him as Lord and Saviour. In an earthly marriage..and lets use your example, a couple has entered into a legal agreement. There is a ceremony along with marriage vows..Now you can call these vows unwritten laws or rules of a successful marriage if you choose to...Thats what they really are. Breaking any one of those vows can lead to trouble in the relationship despite the level of grace shown by the offended party..and let me add that this husband could choose to reoffend believing that the grace shown unto him gives license to break the natural laws of marriage again....Sadly though..even in Christian marriages today....statistics show that one in two end in divorce as well. Now this fellow is already breaking one of the vows as he is giving..in this case..his affection that should belong to his wife..to an inanimate object. Out of love...he should be giving his affections soley to his wife, honoring the marriage vows completely..not partially. The same it is with Christ...While the ceremony is long past..and need not happen again.....it is crucial that we seek to give all of our affection to Christ..our hearts completely to Him.....Jesus accepts us as we are..in our fallen state...and begins to work in and through us as the relationship deepens....If we start violating the spiritual laws that have been set in place since creation....there is going to be relationship problems...In this case however...we can't point fingers as the fault always lies with us......We are His bride and thankfully He is a husband to His church that is full of mercy and grace.....But shouldnt we honor the vows we made to our Saviour each and every day? Jesus wants us to be the bride that abides in His love...How do we do that? The bible says "Joh 15:9 Even as the Father hath loved me, I also have loved you: abide ye in my love. Joh 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father`s commandments, and abide in his love. " I realize that this does not specifically say 10 commandments...but it doesnt have (exclude sabbath) in brackets either. The two commandments that Jesus gave us are our moral obligations to God and to man.....and all moral sin leads back to them..which ironically lead back to the ten commandments...The sabbath is a moral law because it deals with our relationship with Christ as we, the church are His bride.The sabbath was made for us so that we might take time to develop our relationship with Christ..a God and me day..totally devoted to Him.....and as a result we reap blessings from that time spent together..uninterupted with the cares of this world.(God knew that six days of work would leave little time for Him..He also understands our hectic days and how it can be hard to concentrate with so much going on around us)....The day that we rest in Him..The time that we set aside to rest in His love. An earthly marriage is no different..If we don't set aside time for our spouse...quality one on one time...it is a moral issue in our relationship..and the result is neglect and deterioration of that relationship..Ps 145:18 The LORD is nigh unto all them that call upon him, to all that call upon him in truth. | ||
| Truthseeker2004 Registered user Username: Truthseeker2004 Post Number: 29 Registered: 12-2004 |
Hello Melissa....The bible says that those who take the mark of the beast worship it as well......Do you know what this mark is? I don't hear many churches preach about it other than to say it is some chip implant..which has no biblical grounding whatsoever....but Revelation tells us that those who worship this beast will also take the mark of the beast "Re 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years." If you retract your adventist beliefs..then you must also retract that this mark is not the sabbath...If it is not the sabbath..then what is it?...God doesnt mince words about this Re 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, Re 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb.......This is serious business and we need to know what this mark is.......As I said before..God would not give us so great a warning without revealing what this mark is to us......If your good friend told you that someone was going to kill you and your family..and that they knew who it was....but told you they were not going to tell you but that you would have to find out for yourself...wouldn't that be wrong? Well....here we are living in the last days..God has given us this dire warning. But he has also given us the book of Revelation..which is about revealing these mysteries to us.......thanks to the Holy Spirit .Do you think He wants us to be in the dark about it? Once leaving adventism..what is the position on this issue? | ||
| Pheeki Registered user Username: Pheeki Post Number: 441 Registered: 1-2003 |
It isn't about a day...it's about chosing Jesus or not. | ||
| Esther Registered user Username: Esther Post Number: 99 Registered: 5-2004 |
Truthseeker You said "The day that we rest in Him..The time that we set aside to rest in His love. An earthly marriage is no different..If we don't set aside time for our spouse...quality one on one time..." I don't know if you're married or not, but if my husband only took time out for me once a week, I'd not feel very loved. In our marriage, I wake him in the morning, prepare something for him to eat, kiss him as he leaves for work each day, then I run around trying to get myself ready for my work. I talk to him via phone through the day...not normally anything important, but whenever I wish to tell him something or think of him. At the end of the day, we arrive home and spend time exchanging our days, we then work on projects around the house together, or talk, or just sit and vedge in front of the tv. This is a relationship, and though each of us might have our variations...I suspect this is fairly normal for most couples. A relationship is when you spend time together. We may plan special events, but they happen here, there and everywhere, sprinkled through our lives. Claiming that one day in seven is the Lords, and the rest are our own is rather selfish. The point is Jesus, and He needs to be central in our lives moment by moment. If we're living this way (as we should...as Christ came to show) then what's the purpose of the "one day plan"? Holding devoutly to the Sabbath only pits "religion" against "spirituality". Isn't a denominations measuring stick to try to measure God...and God cannot be measured. He wants our hearts and devotion to HIM, what is one day? Think of all the martyrs who have died for their profession of Him, that didn't cling to the day? At the end of time, do you think you'll be persecuted about a day? Or about the One who created ALL DAYS? Paul himself was persecuted by those who professed the Sabbath...and he is the giant in the message of grace. Also, you made some comments regarding the mark of the beast. Give me one Bible verse showing that the mark of the beast is sunday keeping? (btw I doubt any of us profess sunday "keeping") I will even take one text showing that the sabbath is the seal of God...however, here's a text: Ephesians 4:30 "do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were SEALED for the day of redemption." Doesn't it make more sense that as my salvation depends on Jesus (not something that I can do) but also the sealing for that day of redemption should rely on a God who IS ABLE. If my salvation required more from me than belief, I'd never make it, but also, if my "sealing" required something from myself, how would I have the assurance of eternal life that Jesus promises? | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 1232 Registered: 11-2002 |
Hal Lindsey writes fiction. I looked on the side of his books and they are labled fiction. Ellen Whte's books are not passed off as fiction. They are passed off as fact. And, it is a fact that the looney stuff she wrote she came up with herself and the more sane sounding stuff she wrote she copied from a different author. The text was quoted, "... Jesus is lord of the Sabbath..." Some translations word it like this, "... Jesus is lord above (or over) the Sabbath...", which then gives that text a totally different meaning that I read on your post above. Now one more comment-about the SDA preacher where you live being involved with a group of local Christian ministers. It is an atypical situtation for a SDA, particularily the SDA minister to humble themselves to work side-by-side with followes of the beast, by that I am referring to all and any Christans who are not SDA. An example is one frequently disussed on this chat line about how whenever Billy Graham or any other prominant Christian holds meetings and people go to hear the Word of God the SDA's are out in the parking lots trying to get the Chrstians to become SDA. And, now I will give you an example of exactialy the same type of example you gave above. I have printed this before but there are many new folks on here so I will print it again. I live in an urban area here in California. During the first week of each month the pastors from the different churches meet one morning at a local restruant for breakfast. At this function they discss community needs and have prayer. The also check if they can assist each other and their various churches with any particular needs. The SDA pastor DOES NOT attend. Never has and I suspect unless he lets Jesus into his heart he never will. This has been going on for years. So, one Sunday I asked the minister where I attend if someone from this comunity pastor group actually calls the SDA minister and invites him to the function. He told me, "yes, every month". I then asked the minister if the SDA pastor won't come and they all know he won't come then how come they every month to stll keep calling. He said because as Christians we are not to give up on the power of the Holy Spirit and the ministers actually truly would like for the SDA pastor to join them. Trutseeker, I have an opinion and it is that the SDA pastor in my area is more typical than the one in your area as far as SDA pastors go. Generally it seemsto me that the SDA folks are not so much into drawing people to becomming Christian, giving their hearts and lives to Jesus as they ae in getting people to become SDA. | ||
| Truthseeker2004 Registered user Username: Truthseeker2004 Post Number: 30 Registered: 12-2004 |
Esther..you are right.......time for a spouse needs to be more than just once a week.....I am married to a wonderful woman...We both work during the week (I happen to be off this week so have lots of free time)and our shifts can cause one to get home while the other leaves for work...We may see each other in passing or get just a short amount of time together each day...But on the weekends....we get to spend all of our time together.....We take time for our prayer and devotion each day with God....but we also have children..and jobs and all of the busy schedules that cut into our time.....The seventh day is the day that we can enter in completely into His rest.....no hindrances....jobs...shopping....getting kids to school...etc etc....It is a free 100% God and me day. I am a firm believer that what we do the other six days of the week is the real litmus test of our faith....The sabbath is just the day to get our "batteries", if you will, charged for the following week. susan......Hal Lindsay wrote a book called "the late great planet earth"...and it has sold over 25 million copies to date....In it he made "speculative predictions".....none of which came to pass.....I dont believe that book was labelled a fiction but correct me if I am wrong..When he was once asked what he thought of misleading millions with his unfulfilled predictions he basically laughed it off..It's interesting that despite him missing the mark so much..he has his own television show now.I used to think him and Jack Van Impe were the authority on bible prophecy. First it was nuclear threats from Russia...then China marching on Israel.then the european union becoming the revived roman empire again..then the gulf war..then afghanistan....now its some scheme having to do with oil and world domination. Some say that the temple will be rebuilt and animal sacrifice resumed...but Israel has strict animal rights laws in place that will not allow animal sacrifice. It's a shame that so many proclaim themselves "modern day prophets" in the name of book profits.....Tim LaHaye has become quite wealthy spreading his fiction..which is so close to the fundamentalists view of eschatology that they might as well title it non fiction..I run into people every once in a while who think these things will really happen, which is a dangerous lie because many, my brother inccluded say that they will wait to "get right" with God in the tribulation..Thats his "second chance." Didn't ellen white say once that if they studied their bibles as they should that they would have no need to read her books? I also heard..maybe its a rumour...but I heard that she never considered herself to be a prophetess.....that she wasnt elevated to where people esteem her until after her death..Is this right? | ||
| Dd Registered user Username: Dd Post Number: 259 Registered: 7-2004 |
John, Great question...what is the mark of the beast? First look at what the seal of God is according to Scripture - Ephesians 1:13, 14 - "In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were SEALED with the Holy spirit of promise, who is the GUARANTEE of our inheritance until the redemption of the purcdhased possession, to the praise of His glory." Ephesians 4:30-32 - "And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were SEALED for the day of redemption. Let all bitterness, wrath, anger, clamor and evil speaking be put away from you with all malic. And be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving on another, just as God in Christ forgave you." 2 Corinthians 1:20-22 - "For all the primises of God in Him are Yes, and in Him amen, to the glory of God through us. Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and has anointed us is God, who also has SEALED us and given us the Spirit in our hears as a GUARANTEE." Make not mistake - THE HOLY SPIRIT IS THE SEAL OF GOD - NOT THE SABBATH DAY!!!!!!!! If we chose not to believe, to refuse to accept the gift of grace, refuse to rest in Jesus and chose rather to depend an another way (ie. putting our abilities of keeping the 10 commandments and keeping a specific day HOLY) instead of trusting in God's only Son we most assuredly will receive the mark of the beast! Romans 8:9 - "...if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him." John 3:5 - "...unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 1233 Registered: 11-2002 |
Hal Lndsay, Tim LaHay, EGW, Joseph Smith, Rutherford, Jim Jones, that Applewaite fellow from the Heaven's Gate commune, Vernon Howell, Nostradomas, the horoscope colume in your local newspaper-what's the difference? They're all wacky and I don't read any of them. I do though like reading the works of Martin Luther, Billy Graham, there's some others whose names I can't recall right now. The difference is the first set of names I listed all give credibility to themselves. The second list of names only gives all glory to Jesus. And, yes, EGW did say she was not a prophet. In fact, she said she is God's messenger, which quilifies as a much greater role than prophet. She also said if people would read and study their Bibles they would not need her writings. Then she also said that every single word that she has ever put from her pen is to be followed. That's the cool thing about EGW-SDA's can disagee among themselves on most any topic all day long and each one will still be believng what EGW wrote. This is because she not only contradicts the Bible in numerous of her writings, she also frequently contradicts herself. Furthermore, several of the 27 Fundamentals of SDA membership, the SDA offcial statement of belief lists belief in the ongoing interpertation and understanding of EGW's writings. One cannot be SDA and not hold EGW as their source of inspired truth. It's right there in the SDA 27 Fundamentals. It's really mind-boggeling to read her writings and then think how much the SDA church doesn't even follow what she says but the church says it does. In her book on child rearing she says a child shouldn't even go to formal school until age eight. Yet, the SDA churches even run their own pre-schools. Why would they have preschools if they believe children should be home with their mothers until age eight? She said women should never be seen in their private areas by a man doctor. Well, I personaly know numerous SDA ob-gyn's. In one place she says to not eat the unclean meats as set down in the book of Lev. Yet, then she goes on to say that no one who eats any meat at all will be translated. Translated being a SDA word that means getting to go be with Jesus. I remember as a little girl my aunt taking me outside at night and making me look up at the night sky in awe and my aunt would show me the constalation Orion and she would tell me behind there is where Jesus is. I asked my aunt how she knew that and she told me, "Because Sister White says so". I could go on and on and on with lists of things that just don't add up with EGW/SDA'ism and Christianity but you obiviousely have the Internet so you can look it up and do your own research. The SDA is an inconsisant religion. | ||
| Truthseeker2004 Registered user Username: Truthseeker2004 Post Number: 31 Registered: 12-2004 |
Thanks for those verses Dd...They give all the evidence needed to prove that the Holy Spirit is God's seal....I'll make a note of them in my bible. This brings up another question I have....How does one know if they have grieved the Holy Spirit or if they have committed the unpardonable sin? | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 1101 Registered: 12-2003 |
Great question, John. The unpardonable sin is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. In Matthew 12:22-32, Jesus tells us what the sin that "will not be forgiven" is. In verses 22-24, the Pharisees, angry that Jesus had healed a demon-possessed man who was blind and mute and thus elicited astonishment from the people and questions of, "Could this be the Son of David?", told the people that Jesus cast out demons by Beelzebub. Jesus knew their thoughts and told them that a kingdom divided against itself cannot stand. Further, He said, "And so I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come." (v. 31-32) In this passage, Jesus defined the unpardonable sin as giving Satan the credit for the works of God, as the Pharisees had credited Satan with Jesus' power to cast out demons. It is seeing God's power and truth at work and refusing to honor and acknowledge God for them. The unpardonable sin is seeing God's power in a Christ-follower and attributing that person's power to evil. Conversely, blasphemy against the Holy Spirit would also include attributing evil to God because one doesn't want to acknowledge evil at work. The Adventist church has come very close to blasphemy in its position on the Sabbath. The Bible states unequivocally (see Dd's texts above) that the Holy Spirit is the Seal of God. There is NO OTHER seal of God mentioned in the Bible. For Adventists to say the Sabbath is the seal of God, they are placing a created thing in the seat of the Holy Spirit. Instead of seeing people awaiting Jesus' coming secure in their salvation, sealed by God'S Spirit who is witnessing to them that they are God's children (Romanse 16-17), they see themselve awaiting the second coming confidently wearing the seventh day as their mark of loyalty and belonging. They do not even think of the Holy Spirit as the mark that will set them apart as God's people. To credit the Sabbath with being the sign and the seal of their belonging to God is taking away the significance of God Himself marking His people and setting them aside for eternity. That idea is blasphemous. Only the Person of the Holy Spirit can be the seal of God on a person. A day has no power or significance. Without EGW, no one could ever twist the Bible into saying the day was either the seal or the sign of the seal of God. Conversely, the mark of the beast is a heart that is not born again. To the watching universe, it is clear who is God's and who is not by the living spirit indwelt by the Spirit of God in those who belong to him, and by the dead, unregenerate spirits in those who have not accepted Jesus. It's possible that people will be required to accept some sort of physical "mark" at some point to espouse loyalty to an ungodly power. That will be merely a superficial mark. Those who honor Jesus above all will never take the mark of loyalty to ungodliness. That mark will be visible (or absent) to human eyes; it is not needed for non-human eyes. The powers and authorities of the air, and Paul calls them in Ephesians 6, as well as the angels and whatever other created beings there may be about which we know nothing, will not need our theoreticaL physical mark to know which side we're on. Our spirits, dead in original sin or alive with the Holy Spirit, will be clearly visible to all the universe. We know we have not committed the unpardonable sin when we know Jesus. His Spirit witnesses to our spirits that we are His. Anything we put in the plac e of the Holy Spirit--any power of God that we ascribe to something other than God--is blasphemous to the Holy Spirit. John, I get the feeling that you really aren't dealing with the texts we're using or the things we are saying to you. And yes, much of Christianity has become muddled on the issue of the law. "Works" is the natural inclination of humanity. There's a reason Paul spent so much energy and passion writing Galatians and Romans and Colossians. People have always had a tendency to revert to the law as a safety blanket, because then they feel "in control". When they rely solely on the word of God and the sure promises of the Holy Spirit's guidance, they have to give up all the things they think are valuable in their life and allow Jesus to teach them. That'a a very scary stance, because there's no more "list" or "pattern" of a Christian life. Instead we are called to a life of total surrender--surrender even of what we believe is "truth". When we fall before Jesus and give up even what we think He wants and ask Him to teach us from His word, to help us read it with absolutely no preset idea of what it means, when we ask Him to show us truth and to keep us in reality, then we begin to live the Christian life Paul describes in his epistles. But first we have to be willing to let go of everything we value--even those we love and the beliefs we believe, if it comes to that--in order to know Jesus and Him crucified--and only Him. He must be everything; He IS everything! Colleen | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 1235 Registered: 11-2002 |
The Unpardonable Sin- what a subject. The SDA's I know and the SDA teachers I have had HAVE ALWAYS told me and they firmly believe this- that the Unpardonable Sin is any and every sin that the person has failed to ask God's pardon on (forgiveness of). Sadly, this goes then to the SDA teaching of having to obtain perfection as well as having to remember every little sin. And, I'm not even getting into the sins of omission, just the sins of commission. Then, this also negates the doctrine of grace. Were you others who were raised SDA taught that the Unpardonable Sin was the sin not confessed? The way I was taught is that it was unpardonable because God will not pardon (forgive) sins not repented of. They are unpardoned because the person has not asked Gods pardon. As soon as the sin is repented then God will forgive that sin and once again the person does not have the Unpardonable Sin hanging over his salvation. This is not Bibical and it is a very frightening thing to believe every sin committed and every right thing that should have been done but wasn't has to be remembered and repented of. It would drive a person to mental illness. I know, because I have observed numerous devot SDA's really fret over their salvation. | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 194 Registered: 10-2004 |
Let me add a portion of a post of mine which I posted on another forum several months ago.
John, you wrote: "Didn't ellen white say once that if they studied their bibles as they should that they would have no need to read her books?" No. That is a misquote. She said that if the people HAD studied their Bibles there would have been no need for "God" to have "inspired" her to write. She makes it clear that once her writings were written they were absolutely necessary (FOR SALVATION) to read. "I also heard..maybe its a rumour...but I heard that she never considered herself to be a prophetess....." That is also absolutely false. "that she wasnt elevated to where people esteem her until after her death..Is this right?" Not at all. She was highly esteemed during her entire "prophetic 'ministry'" by the SDAs. And she told them they had to "esteem" her writings, and not even question them at all, or they would go to hell. I can supply you with quotes for these things, and I may start a new thread about this. Regarding the mark of the beast, nowhere anywhere in the Bible does it say that the mark of the beast is Sunday-keeping or anything having to do with "Sabbath" and nowhere in the entire book of Revelation is the Sabbath even mentioned!!! If you, John, think it's so important that God told us in the Bible, then why haven't you given us the verse where He plainly says what it is, as you say He does??!! Give us the verse that says the mark of the beast has to do with Sabbath/Sunday!!! John, you never respond to our questions or our requests. Why is that? And please address my previous post from the other thread:
Also, John, did you know that according to the official SDA Church Manual and the official Fundamental Beliefs of SDAs you are not even supposed to be an SDA member if you don't believe in Ellen G. White? From another post of mine on this forum:
One of the doctrinal beliefs of the SDAs 27 Fundamental Beliefs which you must believe to be a member is the belief in the inspiration of EGW: "17. The Gift of Prophecy: One of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is prophecy. This gift is an identifying mark of the remnant church and was manifested in the ministry of Ellen. G. White . As the Lord's messenger, her writings are a continuing and authoritative source of truth which provide for the church comfort, guidance, instruction, and correction. ..." (Fundamental Belief #17, http://www.adventist.org/beliefs/fundamental/index.html) If you don't believe that, you're not supposed to be an SDA. Jeremy | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 75 Registered: 8-2004 |
John, this is something I've wondered about too. It seems like you are talking AT us rather than dialoguing WITH us. I'd be interested to see more dialogue. helovesme2 | ||
| Bb Registered user Username: Bb Post Number: 49 Registered: 7-2004 |
I would like to say that I am still seeking the truth regarding the Sabbath. I have read some, and am not at a point where I have it all figured out. I do think Truthseeker has some very good points, as do all those on the other side. That is what drives me crazy. I think, regarding the Sabbath that both sides are completely logical. However, I cannot accept, like Susan says...the contradictions of EGW. That is SO apparent. The loving, sane writings are copied, and the strange things are her imagination. The texts used by Adventists for the IJ are really stretching to make it fit. It is unbelievable to me that they can make up a doctrine based on a man who was walking through a cornfield distraught over the failed prophecy and thinking "there must be something to it". Like Susan I don't like all those sensationalists who are out there making money scaring everyone. I'll stick to the gospel based ones pointing us to Jesus. Why didn't EGW see the future of this age? She didn't see computers and all that technology has increased. She thought the 2nd coming was imminant. I know SDA's say that the Lord didn't come because WE did not have it together enough for Him to come back. That seems like a stretch too, that we are in control (by what we do) of when He returns! The JW's also have an excuse for every time they predicted God's return and He didn't come. They say he came in "spirit" and SDA's say he started reviewing the books. Come on! | ||
| Bb Registered user Username: Bb Post Number: 50 Registered: 7-2004 |
What I mean by good points, I don't believe about the Sabbath being the "seal". I think the Bible is clear on the Holy Spirit being the seal. I do think one day a week forgetting your cares and focusing on Christ is really awesome, as is keeping Him in your heart and mind 24/7. And it is right there in the middle of the "10", so therein lies my dilemma. I also think it was directed at the Jews coming out of Egypt. I guess I need to study a little more! | ||
| Goldenbear Registered user Username: Goldenbear Post Number: 17 Registered: 12-2004 |
I fear I may repeat what someone else has already said but here goes... If we can do nothing to earn Eternal Life nothing to better qualify us for salvation, then keeping a specific day of the week to study and spend time with God is then a choice rather than an mandate. I have always believed that we did ourselves a real disservice by having a bible class in our schools. With Bible classes every year it becomes a subject rather than something that we let fill our lives and permeate everything we do. We should have made sure our Bible instruction was spread across subject areas, our spirituality should be seen in all we do. (I know, it was rarely Bible - mostly white noise) My point is that we need to be focusing on Jesus and his grace throughout the week, not just on one day. For me it isn't the major point that most sda's think it is. When I asked a pastor friend where the whole mark of the beast is sunday thing is in the bible, he told me flat out that it isn't there. All I needed to hear was that it came from the EGW and that is what did it for me. | ||
| Tdf Registered user Username: Tdf Post Number: 23 Registered: 11-2004 |
Truthseeker, It is true that folks who post on this site are quite passionate about what they believe. As a person who was born and raised SDA, posting on this site has been an adjustment for me. As you read more of the posts on this site, you'll notice that not everyone believes the same way on all doctrinal points. However, the reason that I keep returning to this site is that it seems that all who post here are unified on one point--salvation is through Christ alone. Many of the folks here have left the SDA church (or are in the process of leaving) because they've been convicted that salvation is by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone and because they have been convicted that the SDA church teaches salvation by faith + works. EGW's writings are full of references to salvation by works (or worse, salvation by perfection). My conversations with my parents might serve as a good illustration. My parents have been historic Adventists for 35+ years. When I talk with them, they indicate that they believe in salvation by faith. However, they also say that they believe that Christians must stand before a holy God without a mediator at the close of probation and that, in order to stand without a mediator, Christians must reach a state of behavioral perfection as there will not be an intercessor to plead their case before God. This is salvation by perfection and it runs contrary to the simple and wonderful teachings of Paul in the New Testament (see Hebrews 8, Colossians 2, Romans 3&5, Galatians 3&5 and Ephesians 2). Truthseeker, some of the folks on this site have been hurt by SDAs (myself included). They sense that many SDAs place a higher importance on the Sabbath than they do on a close personal relationship with Christ through which salvation is obtained. Before we debate the lesser doctrine of Sabbath, it might be beneficial for us to discuss the greater doctrine of salvation by faith. Can you share with us the history of your Bible study on the subject of salvation? What is your understanding of the effect of Christ's sacrifice on the cross? Do you believe there is anything that you can do to earn His favor or to cause yourself to be worthy of Heaven? It might be good to start our dialogue with some more foundational issues before hopping into a debate on the Sabbath. I welcome your thoughts. Your brother in Christ Jesus, tdf | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 635 Registered: 7-2003 |
From what I've seen of SDA sabbaths, it's not about focusing upon God. It's about socializing and doing what you want, having fun. Sure, they go to church in the morning, some Saturdays they have lunch together, but the rest of the day is spent doing whatever "fun" they can do without "work". My son's father takes his kayak out on the lake and takes pictures, or he goes bike riding or goes swimming or all kinds of "fun" things, but he won't put dishes in the dishwasher or wash sheets the baby threw up on or anything he doesn't like to do, basically. His brother and sister-in-law usually socialize with their friends...they go to someone's house or someone comes to their's....it's all about having fun. So, maybe there are SDAs who use their sabbath day to focus upon God, But from those I know, it's a day for socializing with very little focus upon God once they get out of church. | ||
| Truthseeker2004 Registered user Username: Truthseeker2004 Post Number: 32 Registered: 12-2004 |
I think that it is quite possible that there are seventh day adventists that hold two completely different points of view on the ten commandments. Let me explain what I mean. First of all...you have the seventh day adventist who clings to the ten commandments because they think their salvation is lost without them. They hold to the Sabbath fiercely....but the true meaning of the Sabbath is lost...Someone here gave an example of waiting for sundown to go shopping or get gas at the gas station.....In my opinion..the very thought of waiting till the very minute the sabbath ends to get started on things is wrong to begin with.Jesus gave us an example of how sin is more than outward action (adultery) it is what we are thinking even.This person is more concerned with the law of the letter that they have lost focus of what resting on His day really means. These same "lawkeepers" will add things to God's law...like not shaving on a sabbath..etc...etc....kind of like the jews in Jesus' day could not eat an egg if the chicken had laid it on the Sabbath....This then becomes a doctrine of works and really makes the gift of salvation and promise of eternal life cheap....It's like someone giving you a gift and then you turn around and try to pay for it. The religious community of Jesus' day had added so many laws to the original sabbath of God that it had become very very difficult to keep..much less enjoy for the jewish people...and most certainly the gentiles would never have been able to adopt such strict customs. Jesus understood this and saw how the old system was wrong....Man has and always will never be satisfied with what is..they always strive to be better..to do more...even to supercede God...which we know is futile..Man tried to reach God by building the tower of babel...Satan tried to one-up God and it didnt work and it certainly won't work with us. Now here is the other type of seventh day adventist....They too acknowlegde the ten commandments as God's standard for living...They gladly accept the gift of salvation and the promise of eternal life. They are confidant and secure in God's grace through His Son Jesus Christ and don't attempt to become "lawkeepers" to pay back the gift of God. They interpret what Jesus has said "If you love me, keep my commandments"....as referring to the decalogue....and solely because they love Him...they uphold His moral law...Christ lives in that persons heart and because of that...that person is also drawn by the inworking of the Holy Spirit to obey the heavenly Father. It is an awesome example of a lifetime of sanctification..Now regarding the sabbath....That person sees it as a blessed time with God and family....they don't watch the clock and count the hours..They are not concerned with little things that must be done for they understand what resting in Christ really means..If they were driving home from church and saw someone at the side of the road..they would get out..roll their sleeves up and try to help. This person understands the deep well of God's grace.... Ro 5:20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: Ro 5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.......They know that the law only exists to show us our sin..the law God has written in our hearts and minds shows us our sin and the Holy Spirit convicts us which leads us back to the One who can give grace more abundantly..the only One who can pardon from sin.......It is God's love that draws us to repentance...Many Christians will tell you that is was an act of God's love that was demonstrated to them that caused them to be drawn unto God in true repentance. The love He lavishes on us fills our hearts with the desire to submit everything to Him....It is not out of any act of duty...or that we feel we are required....Everything is done in love. So....in my opinion this is true...and besides..I have seen those two types of sda's. Now if either want to get drawn into the whole ellen white debate.....that makes for a different type of person all together.There are the sda's who read equal amounts of ellen white and the bible and let her quotes come flying out of their mouths constantly..they continually say "sister white says"..while on the other end of the spectrum..you have the sda's who rarely read her books..let alone have one....the only way they hear of her may be through the sabbath quarterlies or some adventist publication..and maybe a word in passing in a sermon.they are concerned only with what the bible has to say..and if they happen to pick up one of her books..they read it as they would read a book by any other author.gleaning any biblical advice that would be of benefit to them.But as with any denomination in this world..God has children that are truly His..and they know they belong to the Shepherd without a doubt in their minds......and that includes sheep He has in the sda fold as well. Jeremy...you made the narrow minded statement that "If you dont believe that (referring to e.g.w)...you are not supposed to be an sda.".....That is a broad sweeping statement and your personal opinion...It doesnt make it so.....Were you a former sda who obsessed over ellen white? I think you would be surprised to know that there are indeed many sda's in the church today who don't read any of her books or quote her prolifically.......Did you ever think that perhaps the church is changing because God is not finished with it yet? The Holy Spirit is fully capable of changing the hearts and minds of any denomination and reforming it....This is what the reformation was all about and until the day Jesus returns..each church should be going through a time of reformation and sanctification..It appears with the divisions in the sda church today that God is convicting hearts and changing preconceived ideas so that the gospel can be presented in the purest possible manner...Remember..sanctification is a lifelong process. | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 112 Registered: 7-2004 |
John, At the same time many in the SDA church don't quote Ellen abundantly, the church publishes a Bible that changes the Word of God to fit what Ellen had to say. And many SDAs buy this Bible, study from this Bible, bring this Bible to SS class, and even do Scriptural readings from the pulpit with it. The SDA church isn't changing its official view of Ellen, merely engaging in more deception. Like publishing her books without any indication of the church affiliation of the author and publisher. Deception has long been an SDA trademark. And I haven't seen your answers to questions about "why" you are here. |
When a person puts their faith in Christ, the Holy Spirit seals that person "unto the day of redemption." (Ephesians 4:30.) This is a wonderful Bible truth which every Christian needs to understand.