| Author | Message | ||
| Truthseeker2004 Registered user Username: Truthseeker2004 Post Number: 33 Registered: 12-2004 |
Thanks for your post tdf.....Salvation is central to the Christian faith isn't it? It is a great place to start for sure. The evidence of genuine salvation is the presence of the Holy Spirit within us...From the moment that we come to God in true repentance..because His love has drawn us unto Him.....and we confess our sinfulness before Him and accept Him as Lord and Saviour of our hearts, minds and bodies....we begin a new relationship with Him...AT that moment..we experience the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and, clothed in the righteousness of Christ..we can enter into that most holy place to talk with our heavenly Father 24 hours a day seven days a week.....How do we know this has transpired? The bible says "Ro 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God....."....The Holy spirit within causes us to cry out to our heavenly Father... Ro 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father." The indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit assures us that we belong to Christ. The book of 1 John is a great place to start for the new believer....1 John 5:13 says "1jo 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God."When the sinless Son of God, Jesus Christ, shed His precious blood on the cross at Calvary, He died for the sins of His people in their place as a sacrificial substitute. And in doing so, He suffered the wrath of God the Father upon their sin. He paid the penalty for that sin in His own body and purchased their eternal redemption. This enables Him to give as a free gift His own holiness and righteousness to those who believe in Him and trust Him for salvation. making them absolutely perfect in God. s sight! Romans 6:23 says, "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." None of us deserve to be saved; in His love and mercy God extends grace to those who will believe. Grace is defined as "undeserved favor"..To follow up on this...the apostle Paul says "Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. " If you think you need to do anything for Salvation except trust in Jesus work on the cross, you are guilty of violating Ephesians 2:8-9 and Isaiah 53:6...Now having said that.....let me say that the outward manifestation of the inward working of the Holy Spirit will create a new man/woman......A man/woman that will despise sin and cling to obedience to God....They will be filled with a Holy Spirit driven desire to live in complete obedience to the will of God...the Holy Spirit will reveal to us what is right and wrong....and if we heed the Holy Spirit each time we are tempted..each time we are faced with a decision..then we will be walking in obedience to God's moral law.....All sin can be traced back to a breaking of the law.....But as new Christians...we are led by the Spirit..not by the letter of the law.... Ga 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law......We are justifed at the moment we receive God's salvation and gift of eternal life...but our sanctification lasts a lifetime. I definately agree that we are led by the spirit into obedience..not by looking at a set of ten commandments. I see in my study this morning that I have been talking too much about the law and not enough about being led by the Holy Spirit....See what a little study can do....lol...thanks for bringing up that topic tdf......................John | ||
| Pheeki Registered user Username: Pheeki Post Number: 442 Registered: 1-2003 |
I have a nephew, raised in SDA schools and college, parents high up in the church (I mean seriously up there, great source of pride for my in-laws) and recently, my husband asked him why he didn't become a minister. You know what he said? "I didn't want to get that deep into all that stuff." Meaning true SDA doctrines...and you know why I think he said that? I think he was afraid what he would find and God forbid, not be able to reconcile it and maybe even eventually leave the church and totally disappoint his family. So I think you have a whole generation that just simply doesn't really want to know. | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 195 Registered: 10-2004 |
John, You wrote: "Jeremy...you made the narrow minded statement that "If you dont believe that (referring to e.g.w)...you are not supposed to be an sda.".....That is a broad sweeping statement and your personal opinion...It doesnt make it so....." It is NOT my personal opinion. Did you not read my post? Don't you read what we write? I showed you that that is directly from the official SDA Church Manual saying who can be a member and that in order to be a memeber you have to believe in the beliefs of the SDA church which includes, as one of the 27 Fundamentals, the belief in Ellen G. White! IT IS NOT JUST MY PERSONAL OPINION--IT IS THE OFFICIAL RULES OF THE SDA CHURCH!! Do you not care for rules/law, except for the 10 Commandments? According to the official rules of the SDA church, you are not supposed to be a member. I think you definitely need to re-read my previous post. And please respond to the rest of it. Also, how can you say on one hand, that salvation is by grace alone and that we are all Christians, and yet on the other hand tell us all that we are NOT true Christians because we don't keep the Law/Sabbath and that if you don't keep the Sabbath you'll get the mark of the beast and go to hell--THAT IS MAKING IT A SALVATION ISSUE--you are preaching salvation by WORKS in half of your posts and salvation by FAITH in the other half of your posts!!! Jeremy | ||
| Truthseeker2004 Registered user Username: Truthseeker2004 Post Number: 34 Registered: 12-2004 |
Jeremy brother..you need to get a grip on your anger...I have trouble responding to your posts because they are filled with animosity towards all sda's and I just don't see the love of Christ at all.... You stated it..it was your opinion and that is fine if you believe that.....Even if it is written in the doctrinal statement that does not mean that I believe it.....People can choose to believe what they want to believe and I don't believe or agree with everything I happen to read. Convictions of the heart are a personal matter and in one denomination you can have many many different convictions on one point of doctrine. | ||
| Truthseeker2004 Registered user Username: Truthseeker2004 Post Number: 35 Registered: 12-2004 |
Just in reply to your last post Jeremy.... I have spent much time in study this morning and have come to the conclusion that if we are led by the spirit we are not under the law....Which stands to reason that the ones who are under the law are those who are not led by the spirit. This means that those who are led by the spirit do not have to be reminded of the law as the spirit leads them into obedience. Galatians 5:18 does not say that the law is done away with..It just says that the those who are led by the spirit are not under the law..The law is still there though. Now...you stated in regards to me "you are preaching salvation by WORKS in half of your posts and salvation by FAITH in the other half of your posts!!! The bible says that we are saved by grace through faith and not of works, lest any man should boast....This verse is self explanatory and shows that salvation is received through our faith by His grace... In regards to accusing me of preaching salvation by works, can you post where I stated that we are saved by works? I am only affirming what the bible says that "Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.........and .......Jas 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? .....Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.........Jas 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also." It is clear from these bible verses that works and faith must accompany each other.....The bible says that we are saved by grace...and how are we saved by grace? through faith....We are not saved by works.....Works are simply the results of being led by the spirit..as I read this morning. | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 198 Registered: 10-2004 |
John, I do not have animosity or anger towards you. I have posted a few of my sentences with a little bit of frustration, but not anger at you. Also, some of the things I have said have been out of surprise/shock, etc. That is why I have bolded stuff or used all caps, or also to get my point across--but NOT out of anger. Please don't read them that way, as that is not how they were intended. Regarding salvation by works--read my previous post--I told you how it is that you are preaching salvation by works. Jeremy | ||
| Esther Registered user Username: Esther Post Number: 101 Registered: 5-2004 |
truthseeker, no matter how intense the discussion becomes I hope that you realize we are glad you are here. When we are challenging/defending beliefs sometimes it comes across strongly...however, that is how we all learn and grow. I truly appreciate this discussion as it helps to solidify my own thoughts on the matter. And it reminds me that it's not the day, but what's in a persons heart. As we go into the weekend I pray that your Sabbath is a blessed one, and that God will pour out on you full measure of His love...as He has and always will. Peace to you...friend in Christ! | ||
| Tdf Registered user Username: Tdf Post Number: 24 Registered: 11-2004 |
Truthseeker, Thank you for your thoughtful response. If you believe in salvation by faith alone, then there should be no question that the Sabbath is not a salvational issue. It could possibly be a practice that has some value to you, but it's not a salvational issue. You wrote in a previous post that "I think you would be surprised to know that there are indeed many sda's in the church today who don't read any of her books or quote her prolifically." Sadly, I'm not surprised to know this. After being employed by the SDA church and a lifetime of church attendance, I am painfully well aware of the split between the "historic" Adventists and the "progressive" Adventists. Sadly, the historic Adventists generally have no interest in co-existing with the progressive Adventists and progressive Adventists generally live in fear of the historic Adventists finding out that they do not believe that Ellen White is a prophet, that they do not believe in strict adherence to the health message, that they have progressive views on the subjects of music and entertainment, and that they do not believe in an investigative judgment. Because the Adventist church teaches that it is the remnant church, progressive Adventists have much to fear. If they are branded as liberals, they could lose church employment, church offices and could be disfellowshiped. And, for those of us with extensive family connections in the SDA church, there is even more to lose. Certain people used to tell me that Ellen White is not a test of fellowship in the SDA church. If that is true, why is she listed as one of the church's fundamental beliefs? I don't know what the atmosphere is like where you are. In the area of the world where I live, it is simply understood that you do not openly question Ellen White and the 27 fundamental beliefs. I reached the point where I could no longer live in an atmosphere of fear and intimidation. Truthseeker, let's hold tight to the free gift of salvation. When we have a genuine relationship with Jesus Christ, He will reveal everything that we need in His perfect timing. I, for one, have much to learn. tdf | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 199 Registered: 10-2004 |
John, perhaps I should add that I do hate false doctrine, the deception that the SDA church was founded on and continues in today, and the satanic hold of EGW and SDAism that is on SDAs. All of us on this forum can tell you how we have witnessed that hold since we have been released (or even when we were starting to be released) from it ourselves! It does frustrate me to see people who have been brainwashed by the same "canned arguments" and cunningly-devised fables, and doctrines of demons. And I wish for all SDAs the freedom that I (and many others!) have found in the simple Gospel and New Covenant of grace. So, I do have anger/hatred towards Satan and his evil ways and doctrines and bondage. And I wish everyone could know the truth, and the truth will set them free!  Jeremy | ||
| Truthseeker2004 Registered user Username: Truthseeker2004 Post Number: 36 Registered: 12-2004 |
Jeremy, I see that you still fail to understand my reply so I will dissect your comments and accusations. Here is your post related to the issue of salvation: Also, how can you say on one hand, that salvation is by grace alone and that we are all Christians, and yet on the other hand tell us all that we are NOT true Christians because we don't keep the Law/Sabbath and that if you don't keep the Sabbath you'll get the mark of the beast and go to hell--THAT IS MAKING IT A SALVATION ISSUE--you are preaching salvation by WORKS in half of your posts and salvation by FAITH in the other half of your posts!!! Now lets look at what you said one part at a time. In your post, you said "Also, how can you say on one hand, that salvation is by grace alone......" In my post (#35)...I said "The bible says that we are saved by grace through faith and not of works, lest any man should boast" In your post, you said that I said "we are all Christians, and yet on the other hand tell us all that we are NOT true Christians because we don't keep the Law/Sabbath...." I challenge you to find verbatim that statement as opposed to giving your intepretation of what you "thought" I said. Those are your words and not mine. You said that I said "if you don't keep the Sabbath you'll get the mark of the beast and go to hell...." Again..please post my comments verbatim as opposed to your interpretation of what you "think" I meant. The last part of your post makes a statement or accusation if you will...You said regarding me that "you are preaching salvation by WORKS in half of your posts and salvation by FAITH in the other half of your posts!!!" I will answer this by reposting the response I had given you already. The bible says that we are saved by grace through faith and not of works, lest any man should boast....This verse is self explanatory and shows that salvation is received through our faith by His grace... In regards to accusing me of preaching salvation by works, can you post where I stated that we are saved by works? I am only affirming what the bible says that "Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.........and .......Jas 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? .....Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.........Jas 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also." It is clear from these bible verses that works and faith must accompany each other.....The bible says that we are saved by grace...and how are we saved by grace? through faith....We are not saved by works.....Works are simply the results of being led by the spirit..as I read this morning. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 1104 Registered: 12-2003 |
Great point, Pheeki. I agree with you. As a former Adventist who basically decided Ellen wasn't important, who quit reading her books, who justified her humanness and accused the church of making too much of a flawed woman who was used of God but who was not a perfected saint, I can say I completely understand John's point about the Adventists who believe in salvation completely by faith through the grace of Jesus. I was one of those for between 10 and 15 years. I "kept" the Sabbath because of my "loyalty to God." I didn't believe it had anything to do with my salvation. I actually believed I was probably saved through those last few years of Advemtism because I was beginning to understand salvation was by grace alone. I didn't experience the deep freedom and love and joy and security that I ultimately found, but my head was pretty sure. But. There was always the "But." I would never have thought I could give up the Sabbath. I believed but could never satifactorily explain why I believed that walking away from the Sabbath would be to be dislolyal to God and subsequently to walk away from salvation. And I studied the Bible and pondered this question extensively--I kept coming back to it for at least 13 or 14 years. Bottom line: I could never explain to myself from the Bible how, if the Holy Spirit becomes our internal law, authority, power, and trnasforming One, the Sabbath was not part of the package of spiritual gifts and fruit He gave to all who believed in Him. Further, while I could argue Sabbath from the phenomenon of the weekly cycle instituted at creation, I could never really see how the Eden Sabbath was a command for men, nor could I see how the New Testament meshed Sabbatah-keeping with the gospel of grace. Perhaps most significantly, I could not explain to myself from the Bible how, if Sabbath was not required for me to be saved, I might be in danger of losing my salvation if I gave it up. If one cannot be saved by works including Sabbath observance, one cannot be lost by works including non-Sabbath observance. I had rather good-sounding rationale for my observance of Sabbath--and that observance became less and less strict as the years went on because "it wasn't about works". It became, as Melissa observed, more about leaving off all activities remotely connected to "work" and concerntrating on activities that could be considered "relationship building". Even through all those years of "Evangelical ADventism", though, the carefully thought-out rationale I used to defend the Sabbath in my own mind never quite "fit". You know what I mean? It was kind of like pieces of a jig-saw puzzle that looked like they should fit, but they don't quite--and even though it seems they could go together, you can ever make those pieces mesh perfectly. Two things solved my dilemma. The first was finally seeing and fully admitting EGW was a false prophet--not just a misused, flawed woman who was used by God sometimes but shouldn't have been as honored as she was. NO! She was a false prophet, and I can read none of her writings without subjecting myself to the spirit of deception and the evil that always empowers a false propeht. the Bible is 100% clear about false prophets. And just because she never claimed to be a prophet is just a semantic loophole. She called herself "God's messenger" (Biblically that's greater than a prophet--angels are God's messengers), and she also said she was "more than a prophet". The second thing that completed the solution to my dilemma was, once I dismissed Ellen, studying the new covenant, comparing the Old Testament with the New, and seeing for the first time how Jesus truly fulfilled the law. We as Adventists were simply not taught what the Bible really says about Jesus and the law. We were taught to read the New Testament through the understanding of the Old, instead of the other way around. We were taught to see Jesus as coming to uphold and establish the law as our authority instead of seeing the Old Testament through the revelation of Jesus. We were not taught to see Jesus fulfilling the entire Old Testament law and prophecies. We were taught a pick-and-choose fulfillment: he fulfilled the sacrifices but not the scapegoat; he fulfilled the feast days but not the Sabbath, etc. In the OT people believed, and David wrote often in the Psalms, that if they kept the law they would have peace, mercy, they would be God's children, they would suffer persecution for their loyalty, etc. In Matthew 5, JEsus turns that upside down. Those who hear and accept Him, he says would have the kingdom of Heaven--through having Him!--and be peacemakers, merciful, would be children of God, would suffer persecution for having Him--all this would mean they have the kingdom of God! In other words, Jesus clearly taught that the traditional, law-based way to experience the peace, mercy, and pleasure of God was being revealed to be possible through HIm--the One whom the law foreshadowed. Israel had only the law as God's great revelation of Himself. Today we have Jesus as God's great revelation of Himself, and to hang onto the law which was a shadow of the fulness in Christ is either an arrogant or a fearful refusal to surrender to God's astonishing provision for us. The Sabbath--what day we keep--isn't a moral issue--unless we cling to it with an underlying uncertainty that we might be lost if we give it up. Jesus really does call us to give up EVERYTHING--and that word is not a metaphor--that we value and throw ourselves on His mercy with no clinging to anything else. He continues to reveal Himself to us and to call us to deeper and deeper surrender. Nothing we think we are or believe escapes the revealing touch of the Holy Spirit. Ultimately we are asked over and over again to choose to let go of things we believe or cherish or even fear. Jesus wants to be our all-in-all, our only identity, our only object of faith, and our only rule of practice through His revelation of Himself in Scripture. I don't think for one minute that Adventists all thump EGW and believe the Sabbath is "necessary for salvation". Now, though, Sabbath means Jesus Himself, the one of whom the day was a temporary shadow. Praise God, the true Sabbath now keeps me! Colleen | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 200 Registered: 10-2004 |
John, Thank you for addressing it point by point. Hopefully this can bring clarity.
Here is one verbatim quote from the other thread that you were posting in. Here is what you said, John:
(Emphasis mine.)
Ok, that was in this very thread in your post number 26:
And from your post number 29 in this thread:
As I said, if you get the mark of the beast for not keeping Sabbath, and you have to keep the sabbath in order to not get the MARK, then that is salvation by works! Here is one other post where you teach salvation by works, which I pointed out before in the other thread in this post of mine:
As you can see, I was not making anything up when I "accused" you of teaching salvation by works. Jeremy | ||
| Truthseeker2004 Registered user Username: Truthseeker2004 Post Number: 37 Registered: 12-2004 |
Thanks for posting your response Jeremy 1. I agree that you cannot call yourself a Christian if you are not a follower of Christ. To be a follower of Christ we are to abide in His love by keeping His commandments.Joh 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love. ...Keeping God's commandments should not be an issue among His people.1jo 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. ...The bible also says Ec 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. 2. Regarding the sabbath and the beast comment...I did not say that the sabbath was the mark of the beast..I asked you "If you don't believe that is related to false religion and the sabbath..then what is it?" I was just looking for an answer as to what you think this mark is and who you think the beast is...God gives us a dire warning not to take this mark..so surely He would allow this to be interpreted. | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 201 Registered: 10-2004 |
John, You wrote: "1. I agree that you cannot call yourself a Christian if you are not a follower of Christ. To be a follower of Christ we are to abide in His love by keeping His commandments." And you have said over and over again that the "commandments" we are supposed to keep are the 10 Commandments. Therefore, since we (about 90% of us on this forum) don't keep the 10 Commandments, we are not true Christians and we cannot call ourselves Christians. Then why in some of your posts do you call us Christians? 2. You very strongly implied that the mark of the beast has to do with sabbath. You have made it clear (to us) that you believe that. So you therefore don't believe in salvation by faith alone, if you believe that you have to keep the sabbath in order to not get the mark of the beast and go to hell. There is no reason to beat around the bush about this. You seem to be wanting to rely on semantics. Jeremy | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 637 Registered: 7-2003 |
Scripture itself answers your question #2 above. Rev 13:17 " and he provides that no one will be able to buy or to sell, except the one who has the mark, either the name of the beast or the number of his name...." The mark is the name of the beast or the number of his name according to scripture. It doesn't say anything about it being a day of the week that one goes to church. There are many muslims in this world, and they are quickly growing. Their "holy day", if you will, is Friday. If you are making Sunday the mark of the beast, then all muslims will be saved and Christians who worship on Sunday will not be.... That's not logical. The mark of the beast is a deliberate act that somehow must require people to turn allegiance from Christ. Worshipping God on Sunday is not turning their back on Christ. I don't know how you even make a logical correlation to that. You claimed to have come from a pentecostal church...were they all devil-worshippers in disguise? Don't you think anyone was a genuine Christian? The mark of the beast is not going to be something that started 1950+ years ago...as was gathering on Sundays. It will be something new to the time of his appearing. Some say a computer chip, there are already commercials showing people going through lanes at a store and walking out without a cash register, because it gets scanned and charged as you go through the door. Now that seems in line with what "COULD" be the mark of the beast. But the Bible says it will be his name or his number. Verse 18 says "here is wisdom. Let him who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for the number is that of a man: and his number is 666." I've seen some really clever attempts to romanize peoples names and come up with 666...even EGW = 666. But I do not think God is going to try to trick us. People who in their hearts are seeking God are not going to be confused about what their choices are at that time. It will not be some subtle choice, but it will be a dramatic choice between God and Satan. You are right you did not say the sabbath was the mark of the beast... ____________ you said "Leaving the adventist church opens up the door to alot of questioning..If you do away with acknowledging the ten commandments...and disregard the bible sabbath that Christ and all of His disciples observed...then the basis for understanding bible prophecy crumbles as there needs to be a reorganization and understanding of scripture...In Revelation..God clearly warns us about this mark that we are not to take..If you don't believe that is related to false religion and the sabbath..then what is it? God would not give so dire a warning to His people without also revealing to them what this mark is......Can you imagine someone warning you that someone was going to cause extreme harm to you or your family..and that they even knew who the person was...yet when you asked for a name they would say..."well, sorry, but I can't tell you who is going to harm your family..you'll just have to find out for yourself.".....Do you really and honestly believe that God would do this with His church?" ________________ The basic premise of your statement is without the Adventist church, you cannot know about the Sabbath and that you are supposed to keep it to avoid the mark of the beast. You say you cannot understand Bible prophecy without the SDA church. You cannot know what the mark of the beast is without the SDA church. And in spite of the fact that scripture tells us it will be the name or the number of the beast, you have decided it cannot be known from the Bible, but only through the SDA church?????? Did I miss your position? That's sure how it sounds from here. Yes, I believe Revelation talks about false religion...but it NEVER EVEN HINTS at the sabbath or a "correct" day to worship or rest. NEVER EVEN A HINT. That is all SDA additions. The scripture does not say a single thing about it. False religion just is not about a day. If you want to stand before God and explain why it was a sin to worship him on Sunday, though he never one times says so in scripture, that's your choice. But I think I would want to have a very solid scripture that says something like "DON'T WORSHIP GOD ON SUNDAY" before I would tell someone they can't worship God on Sunday. False religion to me looks like the unification church or church of scientology. It's not sincere Christ followers growing through this sanctification process that you mention elsewhere. What if you're not sanctified enough to know the "right" day to worship?? Then a baby Christian can't go to heaven? Just further disconnect from your theology. However this mark is manifest when the time comes, the people who take it know what they're doing. It's not an accident that they will be able to claim ignorance for. Do you follow Buddah or Christ? There's no confusion there. It will be similar, however it looks. And you're still adding in the word "ten" in front of every word translated as "commandments". 1 John STILL says the commandments we are to keep are to love God and love others. IF you're going to quote 1 John, you ought to at least use it in the context of the book in which it is given. You can't get to 1 John 5 without passing over 1 John 3:23. It's hard to trust your ability to "rightly divide the word of truth" when you continue to pull verses out of context and write in words that just do not exist. My personal view.... for what it's worth. | ||
| Truthseeker2004 Registered user Username: Truthseeker2004 Post Number: 38 Registered: 12-2004 |
Nobody on the face of this earth is able to "keep" the moral law in their own strength...The bible says "Ro 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be." This verse tells us that the carnal(worldly) mind is not subject to the law and it cannot be. This being true..the opposite therefore must then be true that the mind of Christ in us is subject to the law of God. Php 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus......1co 2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ. Paul understood this when he said:Ro 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. Paul brings to light here that there are two types of laws...the one in our sinful nature..and the law of God..which God has placed in our minds. The bible goes on to tell us that 1jo 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. The moral law was never intended to become a burden to the one in whom dwells the mind of Christ.....When Jesus preached the sermon on the mount, He said Mt 7:12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets." .....Later in Matthew 22 He would reaffirm and expand on this statement to let us know that the law and prophets hang on His two commands....Both of them moral issues..addressed in a moral law. The moral law or the law of God need not be an issue in whom dwells the Holy Spirit...The bible says Ga 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law .....The only people that are under the law are those who are not led by the Spirit.The bible makes this abundantly clear. | ||
| Dd Registered user Username: Dd Post Number: 265 Registered: 7-2004 |
Melissa, Your Bible and my Bible say the same thing! Praise God for His never changing, straight forward Word that we don't have to add one little tidbit to! GIVE ME JESUS!!! That's all that is "expected" of us from God! How simple and beautiful! | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 1237 Registered: 11-2002 |
Thuthseeker, You can shine it on all you want but the fact still remains if your name is on the SDA membership then you are agreeing to believe in EGW. I have never seen an EHW book in my parents home. Yet, from reading all the other literature they get in the mail from the denomination I can say they don't need her books to read in order to get a hefty dose of her writings, and this is from direct quotes as well as by implication. The only problem with doing it the way my parents have always done it (by not having any of her books) is that then the SDA member is only getting the EGW imput that the conference and the SDA leaders want the lay members to have access to. And, Jeremy, Colleen, Valerie, All you others, please read my entry from 12-16 in this same section about the unpardonable sin. Then tell me if any of you others were taught it this way. I am very interested in finding out if anyone else was taught like I was. Back to you, Truthseeker, the SDA denomination, just as the LDS and the JW (I call them 'the initial churches') was founded upon deception. If you have ever known anyone or even found yourself in the situtation ever to be told a lie or have told a lie yourself then you know how soon one little lie grows into a bigger lie and then a bigger lie and pretty soon there is only two options-come clean and hope for the best or just keep lying. The Worldwide Church of God, rather than keep telling their members their doctrines are true once the pastors understood the Bible outside of Herbert W. Armstrong's imput, well they told the members what the Bible really teaches. Yes, the membershp fell apart. The good news is that most the members did not discontinue Christanty but rather began attending Christian churches. There are some hard ones that still follow HWA. I think the main church of this bent would be the Philidelpha Church of God. But, back to the SDA and how I'm tying all this other stuff into the SDA. The SDA church was founded on deception. Rather than the leaders coming out and being honest and telling their faithful they are deceving them they have chosen to keep on deceving them. Do you ever read that suff that Paulsen fellow says? I read a statement awhile back that he basis his entire salvation on his belief if the SDA church being the true church. That just blew me away. I was sitting at my moms when I came across that statement in the Review. I about fell out of my chair. My mom asked me what I was reading that got me so visible upset. I read it to her. It didn't phase her. She just made a comment about the SDA church not being perfect but it still is THE MOST RIGHT of any church. And, now to the Saturday Sabbath issue-if here was a Seventh Day Baptist church within driving distance to me I would be attending there weekly, or whenever I could make it. There's not so I attend my main weekly service on Sundays. This is because I want to worship with Christians. BTW, several blocks from my house lives a lady who classifies herself as an hystorical SDA. She wil not even go into the SDA church because it has become too apostate. I can give her Bible texts on any given subjcts. She answers back with EGW quotes. Sometimes she answers back with Jan Marcussin quotes. | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 114 Registered: 7-2004 |
John, The ONLY basis for concluding that the mark of the beast is Sunday worship is based on the false assumption that 7th-day Sabbath keeping is the seal of God. The SDA argument for what the mark of the beast is has always been based on their understanding of the seal of God. The argument is basically the Sabbath command contains all the elements of a ruler's seal (a "fact" that SDAs state, but can not provide Biblical or historical evidence to prove) and is therefore the seal of God. If that is the seal then the mark must be something that is contrasted with the seal, voila Sunday worship. You have already commented that you understand that the seal of God is the Holy Spirit NOT Sabbath keeping, so rejecting the false conclusion that Sunday worship is the mark of the beast shouldn't be too far behind. | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 115 Registered: 7-2004 |
We would do well to discuss the statements in the book of James within their context. James 2:14What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and be filled," and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that? 17 Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself. 18 But someone may well say, "You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works." The works being spoken of here are not the works of keeping the law, but rather the works of acting in love towards our brothers and sisters. Even the discussion earlier in the chapter is clear that it is about showing partiality and it equates this lack of love (but something that doesn't directly break any commandment) with breaking ALL of the commandments. |
