| Author | Message | ||
| Truthseeker2004 Registered user Username: Truthseeker2004 Post Number: 39 Registered: 12-2004 |
ric..you said "The works being spoken of here are not the works of keeping the law, but rather the works of acting in love towards our brothers and sisters........Jesus told us : "Mr 12:30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. Mr 12:31 And the second is like, namely this, THOU SHALT LOVE THY NEIGHBOUR AS THYSELF. There is none other commandment greater than these. ............I would say that "acts of love toward our brothers and sisters is most definately what Jesus commanded us to do in Mark 12:31..wouldn't you? In my last post..post#38, I had posted info on the law of God....I am curious to know if there is anything in that post that anyone would disagree with..and if so..what is it? | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 116 Registered: 7-2004 |
I'll start by disagreeing with your opening statement in that post: "Nobody on the face of this earth is able to 'keep' the moral law in their own strength..." I would like to see you demonstrate Scripturally that anyone keeps the law perfectly through any strength (their own or otherwise). And if one doesn't keep the law perfectly, they haven't "kept" the law. This idea of keeping the law or being made righteous through Christ working in us is, in my mind, one of the fundamental fallacies of SDA teaching that makes grace alone so hard for SDAs to understand. SDAs speak the same words as other Protestant Christians, but donít always mean the same things by these words. Righteousness by faith is a good example. Protestants have consistently used this phrase to indicate that we are counted as righteous because of our acceptance through faith of Christís righteousness. SDAs expand the meaning by teaching that, through continued faith, God makes us into righteous people. In order to actual be righteous, rather than just being counted as righteous, we must become perfectly righteous just as Christ was. SDAs acknowledge and even tout this teaching (see Andreasen's writing on the Sanctuary for a clear example). Scripture is clear that the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in the lives of believers leads to fruits that are evident (Gal 5:22-23, Col 3:12-15, James 2:9-17), particularly in the way we treat each other. At the same time Scripture is equally clear that converted believers are not perfect (Eccl 7:20, Rom 7:14-25, I John 1:6-10, James 3:2) in their own behavior, but are considered perfect because of Christ. We will not become righteous until the day in which we are all changed (1 Cor 15:42-53). Acknowledging our sinful flesh does not causes us to cherish or love sin because the indwelling Holy Spirit is at working changing our hearts. This is why Paul can say that his inner self delights in the law of God (Rom 7 again). Instead by acknowledging our inability to be sufficiently righteous we are continually and repeatedly drawn to the foot of the cross and the grace that is freely offered in Christ. Continually experiencing this grace fills us with joy (John 16:20-22) and encourages us to share this kind of love with others (Luke 7: 47, Matt 18:21-35) | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 1241 Registered: 11-2002 |
The preist where I attend frequently emphasises that as Christians we are simotaniousley saints and sinners. It's a paradox. We are sinners. We were born with origional sin. We sin often, even if we are unaware of te sins we have been committing. And, these are just the sins of commission. The sins of omission are probable even more. However, as Christians, as people having the Holy Spirit dwelling within us we are saints. We can b sure of our eternal life with Jesus. Are sins are remembered no more. We recite the creeds. We first offer God our heartfelt repentence. Then we are given absolution. But, even if we were to suddenly die the forgiveness would still be there because we are IN CHRIST. Nonetheless, Communion is still my most desired part of the service. | ||
| 4drian Registered user Username: 4drian Post Number: 29 Registered: 11-2004 |
Truthseeker, I just read this thread and would like to provide you with a link to a very good study on the sabbath: http://www.oneflockministries.org/pages/2/index.htm This links you to Pastor Greg Taylor's website. There, you can read his personal story as well as his study on the New Covenant. Please take a look at it. You will not be dissapointed. I read this in book form but I think most of it is also in the online version. If you would prefer the book, you can get it here: http://www.sdaoutreach.org/materials.cfm Pastor Greg's book is called "Discovering the New Covenant: Why I am no longer a Seventh Day Adventist." If you have any questions about what you read, please feel free to post them here. I have also found that Pastor Greg is one of the nicest people I have ever talked to. I'm sure he wouldn't mind answering some of your questions. Here's his email address: gregt@oneflockministries.org God Bless, -Adrian (vlad) | ||
| Windmotion Registered user Username: Windmotion Post Number: 83 Registered: 6-2001 |
Truthseeker, According to your name, you are seeking the truth. You come across as antagonistic to some because they feel you are defending what they see as not the truth at all. I understand the Sabbath is something that Adventists hold near and dear to their hearts, even after they have rejected most of the other Adventist doctrines. Is that where you are right now? The adventist doctrine that really got my husband to start distrusting adventism was the sanctuary doctrine. Ellen White said it is one of the pillars of the church, but few adventists can articulate exactly what it is. Have you studied this doctrine much, and if so, what are your thoughts? If not, perhaps now is a good time to do so to further your search of truth. Dd, I would love to meet with you sometime, but figuring out the logistics of it could be tricky. I will keep you posted!! Also WILL THIS ELECTION EVER END!!!!!!! --Hannah | ||
| Goldenbear Registered user Username: Goldenbear Post Number: 19 Registered: 12-2004 |
4drian, I agree about Greg Taylor. He came me a great deal of comfort during times I didn't particularly have answers that I could find in the word. From his counsel, as I studied, I found a peace that passes all understanding. | ||
| Truthseeker2004 Registered user Username: Truthseeker2004 Post Number: 40 Registered: 12-2004 |
Hello Ric...I just wanted to respond to your post. You said that "I would like to see you demonstrate Scripturally that anyone keeps the law perfectly through any strength (their own or otherwise)." We cannot keep the law perfectly, but we can keep the perfect law of God. Luke tells us the story of a rich young ruler. "Lu 18:18 And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? Lu 18:19 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God. Lu 18:20 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother. Lu 18:21 And he said, All these have I kept from my youth up.Lu 18:22 Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me." A rich young ruler comes to Jesus...asking what he must do to inherit eternal life.....Jesus shares the law of God or the moral law with him.....and the ruler tells Jesus that "all these have I kept from my youth up.".....Jesus did not call him a liar or say that he didnt keep the law of God because it was impossible to do....He said "You lack one thing....sell all of your possessions and give them to the poor....and you will have treasure in heaven..then follow me." The bible says that "1jo 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.....Merriam Webster defines "grievous" as burdensome, demanding, exacting, oppressive, taxing and tough........When the mind of Christ is in us.....the perfect law of God (Ps 19:7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.) should not be onerous at all. James also writes about this perfect law, calling it the perfect law of liberty....Jas 1:25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed."...The perfect law of liberty is liberty to those who are led by the spirit...for those who are led by the Spirit are not under the law. In our human minds...we set limitations on what Christ can do through us. The bible tells us that the power of Christ in us is mighty..2co 10:3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh: 2co 10:4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;) 2co 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ; 2co 10:6 And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, WHEN YOUR OBEDIENCE IS FULFILLED." Jesus also told us "Joh 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father....The bible says "Php 4:13 I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me." Paul hits the nail on the head when he says "2ti 1:7 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind." Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Joh 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. Paul sums it up best when he compares the two types of laws...The law of the sinful nature versus the law of God.......Ro 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. As I had mentioned before, the bible says "Ro 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be." This verse tells us that the carnal(worldly) mind is not subject to the law and it cannot be. This being true..the opposite therefore must then be true that the mind of Christ in us is subject to the law of God. Php 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus......1co 2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ. We tend to put God in a box or limit His abilities as He works in and through us..The bible tells us that we can do all(not some or most)....but all things through Christ who strengthens us. The awesome aspect of God's grace is that if we sin(transgression of the law)....the bible says 1jo 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: 1jo 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.........now..just so I dont take things out of context..I will add the next few verses as well.......1jo 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.1jo 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1jo 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.1jo 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked. How did Jesus walk? Joh 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; EVEN AS I HAVE KEPT MY FATHER'S COMMANDMENTS, and abide in his love. We have been made righteous in the sight of God through the shed blood of Christ..We wear that robe of His righteousness now .Although our sins are as scarlet...Christ has made us white as snow....The awesome news is this......1jo 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:1jo 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. We have salvation in Christ and have begun a lifetime of sanctification...The bible gives us this advice that is just as applicable today as it ever was.....Ec 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 1110 Registered: 12-2003 |
John, your posts do not reflect an attitude of desiring to learn and discover but rather of convincing others of your position. In fact, you do not respond to many of the things we write, choosing instead to create "arguments" comprised of texts strung together out of context, causing them to appear to say what they do not say in context in Scripture. I'm reminded of Paul's words to Titus: "But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and arguments and quarrels about the law, because these are unprofitable and useless." (Titus 3:9) Endless discussions and arguments about the law which do not lead to the discovery of the grace and love and freedom of intimacy with Jesus are really counterproductive. I'm sure you can tell that the people who are "dialoging" with you here are rejoicing in the discovery of Jesus, in their love for Him and freedom in Him and in their absolute security in Him. You also have declared your position in Jesus, and we rejoice that you have found Him. Continuing to focus on the importance of the law, however, is actually having another "god" before Him. Our purpose is to know Jesus and Him crucified, not to hold onto the law as a means of our knowing Him. We do not need a mediator or authority standing between us and Jesus. He alone is all we need. He is enough! He replaced the law as our way to come into relationhsip with God. Jesus alone is The Way! Our hearts are covered with a veil when we return to studying and upholding the law. (2 Corinthians 3:14-15) In Christ the veil is removed. Only in Christ is there complete freedom. Only in surrender is there liberty. Colleen | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 202 Registered: 10-2004 |
John, Your unusual interpretation of what "under the Law" means does not stand the test of the WORD of God. Paul says: "To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law though not being myself under the Law, so that I might win those who are under the Law; to those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, so that I might win those who are without law." (1 Corinthians 9:20-21 NASB.) If being "under the Law" means that you are not led by the Spirit (which according to the Bible you ARE if you've been born again), or that you are not obedient, then think about this: Pauls says that he IS under the Law of Christ. Does this mean that Paul was not obedient? Does this mean that Paul was not led by the Spirit?! That would be utter blasphemy to say that as he was inspired by the Spirit to write this epistle!!! You have put yourself in a corner. Please explain this one. Jeremy | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 255 Registered: 4-2000 |
Colleen, Your Proclamation magazine article entitled,"The human spirit: Breath or core identity?," should be required reading for every Seventh-day Adventist. Thank you for sharing "the difference between life and death" with your readers. Dennis J. Fischer | ||
| Truthseeker2004 Registered user Username: Truthseeker2004 Post Number: 41 Registered: 12-2004 |
Ro 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be." .....The opposite must be true then that those who have the mind of Christ are subject to the law.. Paul affirms this....Ro 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. Seems self explanatory to me but go ahead and make all the excuses you want.......thats just what they are is excuses. | ||
| 4drian Registered user Username: 4drian Post Number: 30 Registered: 11-2004 |
John, I am writing again to implore you to take the time to read pastor Greg Taylor's story: http://www.oneflockministries.org/pages/2/index.htm Everyone else, I am going to use the term "us" in refering to all of the former sdas on this forum. I hope the what I want to say is something that we all indeed agree about. Please let me know if I have misjudged. Now JOHN, Please do not misunderstan my intentions. I am not asking you to read this just because I want to force you to read something you might disagree with. The reason I am asking you, as you brother in Christ, to read Pastor Greg's webpage, is because I want you to have a better understanding of what the people on this forum believe. Since most of us here are former adventists we completely understand where you are coming from. Through a lot of bible study and prayer, we have all come to the conclusion that our former views were not correct. We have been trying to explain New Covenant theology to you, but it is difficult to do so on a forum such as this; because a proper study of the new covenant requires, at a minimum, a few pages of material, writen in a logical order by a single person. When multiple people start writing, it gets a bit confusing; especialy for someone that has a completely different understanding of what the bible is saying. If you read Pastor Greg's website, you will at least see how the rest of us look at the bible. I can assure you that once you understand how we view the Sabbath our discussions will become much more productive; and less frustrating for all of us. If you do not make an effort to understand us, I am afraid we will keep talking past each other 'till the end of days. God Bless, -Adrian (vlad) | ||
| 4drian Registered user Username: 4drian Post Number: 31 Registered: 11-2004 |
One more thing John, If you have any questions at all about New Covenant theology please give them to us, one at a time, and we would be glad to answer them. If you do not agree with us, then you can let us know the exact points that you disagree with and we can have a more productive discussion. God bless and Merry Christmas to all, -Adrian (vlad) | ||
| Dd Registered user Username: Dd Post Number: 267 Registered: 7-2004 |
Hannah, let me know when you are in the Tri-City area and I will try and make a trip up. It is only 45 minutes away and where Costco, Target, Ross and TJMaxx is! You are free to email Colleen (formeradventist@yahoo.com - I think?) and ask for my email address. | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 117 Registered: 7-2004 |
John, By your description the rich young ruler was keeping the law even with outside help (something you yourself have said was not possible). Which is it? You quote I John 5 again and again while ignoring the responses that many have made to you that you can't read I John 5 independent of I John 3. 22 and whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do the things that are pleasing in His sight. 23 This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us. 24 the one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. WHAT DID JOHN SPECIFICALLY SAY THAT HIS COMMANDMENTS WERE IN THE VERY BOOK THAT YOU ARE QUOTING FROM? WHY DO YOU KEEP IGNORING THIS? (I am only using caps to make my questions stand out from the quotes that I am posting, not as any expression of emotion.) Would you care to discuss any of the verses that I posted or do you prefer to just keep repeating your SDA manta again and again: Eccl 7:16-- Do not be excessively righteous and do not be overly wise. Why should you ruin yourself? WE ARE ADVISED TO AVOID BEING EXCESSIVELY RIGHTEOUS. WHY? DOESN'T SOUND MUCH LIKE PERFECTION. Eccl 7:20--Indeed, there is not a righteous man on earth who continually does good and who never sins. NOT A RIGHTEOUS MAN ON EARTH. WAS GOD TELLING US THE TRUTH HERE? I John 1:8-10--If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us. I HAVE NO INTENTION OF MAKING HIM A LIAR! James 3:2 For we all stumble in many ways If anyone does not stumble in what he says, he is a perfect man, able to bridle the whole body as well. WE ALL STUMBLE IN MANY WAYS, DOESN'T SOUND TOO PERFECT TO ME. AND THIS IS JAMES SPEAKING!!! Rom 7:14-25 You continue to yank verses away from their context in order to suggest that the Bible supports your teaching. Let's look at another example, you cite John 14:12 where Jesus states that His followers will do greater works than He. You quote this verse in the context of whether we can obey suggesting that this verse means that Christ's followers would have even greater obedience than Christ which is clearly a ridiculous idea. So the text must be talking about something else would you agree. John 5 gives us insight into what else it could be talking about. Again Jesus speak about "greater works" and it is clearly in the context of performing miracles. 20"For the Father loves the Son, and shows Him all things that He Himself is doing; and the Father will show Him greater works than these, so that you will marvel. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 1112 Registered: 12-2003 |
Adrian, I agree with you and your recommendcation of reading Greg Taylor's website. Dennis, thank you for your kind words. Colleen | ||
| Truthseeker2004 Registered user Username: Truthseeker2004 Post Number: 42 Registered: 12-2004 |
Well....it is frustrating for me to post verse after verse and show why I believe that law and grace compliment each other...I let that get the best of me earlier and apologize for my last post. Thanks 4drian for that link...I went to the site tonight but the testimony looks pretty long...and I just got home...so I will read it tomorrow when I am wide awake. Ric...I don't see it as a mantra...As well as you..I have done some serious study and come to a different conclusion. Since joining the sda church.....my bible has never had the chance to collect dust because for the first time in my life I can read and understand it...I have complete seminars from awesome evangelists like leo schreven....steve wohlberg....and Lyle Albrecht as well as Mark Finley....Everything that they say fits so perfectly with the bible....it makes more sense than anything to me...or my newly converted sda wife have ever heard of...How can you say it is all wrong? I have met alot of Christian folks in my lifetime as I worked for a non denominational organization for 13 years until I immigrated from Canada to the U.S to live with my wife..Without exception..the most godly..sincere and dedicated I have ever known are the sda people...The fruit of the spirit is so evident in their lives..at least all of them that I know....Sure..they aren't perfect..but to me and my wife it is very genuine......How can you say that is all wrong? I spent 20 something years in the pentecostal church searching for truth and then when I find it...someone comes along and tells me thats a lie too? I am just having a very difficult time buying into it right now. | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 119 Registered: 7-2004 |
John, I appreciate your enthusiasm and fire for studying your Bible. That is one of the positive legacies that I have noted about my own experience with SDAism. Many of us don't argue half as vehemently now against the centrality of the law and Sabbath as we did FOR IT when we were SDA. I'm probably glad I didn't know Jeremy before he was former! Personally I was so convinced that I had found a church with ALL the answers that I set out to "prove" it to everyone, certain that their resistance was based solely on their lack of understanding or rejection of God's light. Learning that I didn't have all of the answers, and in fact had more questions than answers, was a very humbling experience. And the reason why I don't argue my understanding nearly as vehemently as I once did. I didn't understand just how much the teachers of SDAism stripped verses from their context and ignored the surrounding verses in presenting doctrine until I started "reading" books of Scripture. A translation in current language is critical for this type of reading, personally I chose NASB for my main study Bible since based on what I learned during Biblical Greek it was one of the most literal translations. What I mean by "reading" is best described by example, rather than just reading a few verses from Romans and combining it with what other people said it meant and jumping around to a few isolated other texts to "see the meaning Paul had in mind" I read Romans from start to finish again and again and again. Then I started doing this with other NT books. For whatever reasons I found myself particularly drawn to Paul's writings. And I started seeing how many times the clear "proofs" that I had learned weren't consistent with a straightforward reading of the passages surrounding them. We didn't come along and tell you that the "truth" you think you have found is a lie. You came here. If you think, as you say, that you have found the "truth" by becoming SDA why did you choose to come to a former SDA website to post? | ||
| Truthseeker2004 Registered user Username: Truthseeker2004 Post Number: 43 Registered: 12-2004 |
Hello Ric.....You had asked me "If you think, as you say, that you have found the "truth" by becoming SDA why did you choose to come to a former SDA website to post?" I have always had a curiousity for knowing how opposing sides think.what drives people to believe as strongly as they do on an issue .in all matters..not just religious.call it an open mind if you will...I have talked to folks from virtually every denomination out there..many of them cults and even the odd satanist...... to understand their reasoning for what they hold fast to....Coming to this forum is no exception. It has always surprised me that people in one denomination can have such strong convictions of the Holy Spirit on the same matter with two opposing points of view....Obviously only one side can be right....The reason I am here is to determime from scripture alone which side is on the Lord's. We have posted back and forth with scripture but both is interpreted differently..The bible is its own interpreter.....so does that not mean that we should read it and understand it as it is written..For example....when Jesus says "If you love me, keep my commandments.".....are we not adding to that if we debate on which commandments He is speaking of? How can we absolutely know for certain what Jesus was saying without adding our own interpretation to it? When we read other verses like "Ec 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man."...doesnt this affirm what Jesus said? The bible is littered with such references to the commandments of God. At what point do we say that what Jesus said does not jive with what Eccles 12:13 says? Do you see my dilemna? The bottom line...the issue at hand is how is scripture being interpreted? In America, 100-150 years ago....what was the stance of the Christian regarding the ten commandments? To my understanding(I am Canadian)....the ten commandments were posted publically and people everywhere acknowledged their importance in regards to a relationship with Jesus Christ. Has this idea been lost somewhere along the way? It's not my idea to argue on these matters. I am just weighing what the bible has to say..how has our perception of the importance of the ten commandments in the life of a Christian changed since reformation began? If God never changes then His Word can never change...then how has mention of the ten commandments becomes so engrained in the mind of God's people as lawkeeping and nothing less? 4drian...I most certainly can see God's spirit of grace in your messages...and I would like to respond to your offer when you said "If you have any questions at all about New Covenant theology please give them to us, one at a time, and we would be glad to answer them. If you do not agree with us, then you can let us know the exact points that you disagree with and we can have a more productive discussion. " In regards to what I have just posted..I would like your ideas on how you feel Christendom has changed their stance on the importance of the ten commandments since reformation began....and if that stance has changed....has it changed because anything since the beginning of reformation has changed? What is our reasoning for changing our perception of the importance of the moral law as opposed to how our great grandparents saw it? Thanks in advance for your comments...................John | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 121 Registered: 7-2004 |
John, First of all I want to thank you for stating so clearly your reason for being here. SDAism such a long history of deception in practices related to evangelistic seminars, colportuering, free Bible studies, book authorship, and even personal witnessing that all of us will likely respect you far more for being straightforward about your reasons for being here. I don't think that the traditions of our grandparents has any particular value in what we believe today, I am far more concerned with trying to understand what Scripture has to say. We don't need to add our interpretation of what Jesus meant by His words, He is very clear: John 15 NASB 9 Just as the Father has loved Me, I have also loved you; abide in My love. 10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love. 11 These things I have spoken to you so that My joy may be in you, and that your joy may be made full. 12 This is My commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends. 14 You are My friends if you do what I command you. This is consistent with what James says about "works" it is consistent with what Paul teaches about fruits. It is consistent with what John tells about commandment keeping in I John. It is typical of the SDA approach to Bible study to ignore what is clearly stated in the surrounding verse and instead skip to an entirely different area of Scripture to find the "answer" that fits their belief structure. Many times SDAs don't understand what we mean when we criticize the use of proof texting, your use of Jesus's words here and your use of I John 5 are clear examples of just that. In each case we provide you with the direct Scriptural statements and context surrounding your proof, but you continue to ignore these. If your goal is to debate SDA doctrine, and understand the arguments that the critics of SDAism make, I really suggest that you visit the CARM discussion board on SDAism. That board is much better suited to the style of posting with which you seem intent on engaging. I'm easy to find there, my nic is the same as here. http://new.carmforums.org/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=121 Do you intend to respond to any of the objections and Scriptures that are posted by myself and others here or do you plan on just repeating the same few comments again and again, without actually engaging in any discussion of the very topics that you suggest you want to discuss. Up to this point it seems to me that you are primarily interested in being able to post the SDA view on this formers' site without any real interest in dicsussion or understanding of why any of us might not agree with your conclusions. |
