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| Hiddenmanna Registered user Username: Hiddenmanna Post Number: 7 Registered: 12-2004 |
I would like to start this tread with what Full Preterist believe concerning how Jesus appeared a second time in 70 AD. I do not wish to debate this, I only want people to read it and think about it. Ask questions but one topic at a time. Second Appearing When we look at the pattern of the Old Covenant system concerning the Priesthood service in the tabernacle of Moses, it becomes clear how Jesus would have fulfilled all things during the time of that Generation. The high priest did not have to wait 2000 years to come out of the Holy of Holies on the Day of Judgment ìAtonementî. If he did not come out within a short period of time there would not have been any salvation for Israel, and the High Priest would have been struck dead. During that time of waiting for Jesus to appear the second time the early church was saved by faith. They looked forward to their salvation even though they were saved by faith through grace, but their faith was in something still hoped for ìsecond appearingî. Hebrews 9:28 is generally one of the first verses offered as proof there is to be a yet future return of Jesus. Let us notice a few things about the text. The inspired writer says in verse 26 Jesus had appeared ìonceî to put away sin by sacrificing himself. The Greek word translated once is ìhapaxî and normally means ìonce for all time,î see Jude 3, I Peter 3:18. The writer then says Jesus ìshall appear the second time unto salvation,î vs. 28. In Luke 21 Jesus spoke of Jerusalemís coming destruction: ìthen shall they see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great gloryî vs. 27. He said ìwhen these things come to pass then look up and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nighî vs. 28. In verse 32 he said it would be in that generation. The word ìredemptionî used here is the identical word used in Romans 3:24; 8:23; I Corinthians 1:30; Ephesians 1:7,14, etc. to speak of the redemption of salvation. With these few facts before us let us draw a conclusion. One complete salvation DID NOT come at the cross according to the Apostles. And do this, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep; for now our salvation is nearer than when we first believed. The night is far spent, the day is at hand. (Romans 13:11-12). who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. (1 Peter 5) These statement were made some years after the cross. And according to Peter their complete salvation was ready to be revealed in the last time of the old covenant. Salvation was ratified or confirmed through His Cross [not at the Cross], and consummated in His Parousia. Think about it - if salvation was all in all secured at or on the Cross, then they had no need to further look for its completion. Christís Coming in AD70 completed it. Again, salvation came through or via the Cross of Calvary, the Victory of the Cross had an out working to completion in that generation. This is NOT saying that there was some inherent deficiency in the Cross, NO, it is saying the process of salvation started and finished with the Coming of God in Christ - His First and Second comings being the book-ends of Salvation - both encapsulating the Cross. Hebrews 9:28 says Jesus would appear a second time, not many times, unto salvation. Jesus said he was going to return at the destruction of Jerusalem and this would be the redemption [salvation] of his Body. (Luke 21:20-28) He said it would be in that generation. (Luke 21:23) Therefore Jesusí return in the destruction of Jerusalem, for the purpose of redemption, is the return of Hebrews 9:28. The force of the word ìsecondî as used here is the same as ìonce;î Christ would not appear again and again. When did our High Priest come out from the Holy of Holies to present Himself to the people? This question seems to be ignored by many Christians today. It is of vital importance, however, because unless our High Priest appears out side of Holy of Holies who can be saved? The Bible explains and interprets itself. The example is set in the Old Testament. Every year on the Day of Atonement the high priest would enter in to the Presence behind the veil in the Holiest of all. ìAlso the tenth day of this seventh month shall be the Day of Atonement. It shall be a holy convocation for you; you shall afflict your souls, and offer an offering made by fire to the LORD. And you shall do no work on that same day, for it is the Day of Atonement, to make atonement for you before the LORD your God.î (Leviticus 23:27,28) The High Priest must come out from the Holy of Holies to present Himself to the people so they know the blood of the sacrifice atoned for their sins. If the High Priest does not appear the people have no assurance of salvation. No appearance, no forgiveness. Since Christís coming in 70 was the coming for redemption, and since he was to return only once for salvation per Hebrews 9:28, then Christís return in 70 was the final coming of Christ. This conclusion is corroborated in Hebrews 10:33-39. The writer addresses Christís coming in judgment and salvation: ìFor yet in a very little while, the Coming One will come and he will not delay.î [Tragically, most of Godís people insist he HAS DELAYED! which makes him a false prophet The Bible has a standard of determining the validity of a prophet! It is Jehovah himself that gave the criteria for determining whether a prophet was true or false; if a prophetís prediction did not come true he was a false prophet, Deuteronomy 18:15ff. If God does not keep the WHEN part of his promises, he has not kept his promise! In the margin of your Bible, beside Hebrews 9:28, write Luke 21:28 and Hebrews 10:33-39. These verses give divine commentary on Hebrews 9:28. Upon what basis can anyone postulate a future coming of Christ? He promised to come [once] again for salvation. He said when it would be; and he kept his word. It is something to ponder. Act 1:9 And when he had said these things, as they were looking, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. Act 1:10 And while they were looking stedfastly into heaven as he went, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Act 1:11 who also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye looking into heaven? this Jesus, who was received up from you into heaven shall so come in like manner as ye beheld him going into heaven. Verse 11 says, ì...shall so come in like manner as ye beheld him going into heaven.î How exactly did Christ ìgo into heaven?î Verse 9 says, ì...a cloud received him out of their sight.î Now compare these. Mat 24:30 and then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. Mat 26:64 Jesus said unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Henceforth ye shall see the Son of man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven. Dan 7:13 I saw in the night-visions, and, behold, there came with the clouds of heaven one like unto a son of man, and he came even to the ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. Isa 19:1 The burden of Egypt. Behold, Jehovah rideth upon a swift cloud, and cometh unto Egypt: and the idols of Egypt shall tremble at his presence; and the heart of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it. God coming with clouds of glory is a recurring theme throughout Scripture. | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 132 Registered: 7-2004 |
In Matthew 24:37-41 Jesus tells us the coming of Jesus will be like the days of Noah--"they did not understand until the flood came and took them away." If the coming of the flood is like the coming of Jesus, how is it possible for it to have already happened and nobody realizes it? I think when the flood came, everybody knew once it started happening! Also, Jesus talks several times throughout the gospels about at His coming, the sheep will be separated from the goats, and the evil people will be thrown into outer darkness. Good and evil haven't been separated yet. What about "every eye shall see Him". And in Paul's writings, it's very clear that at the second coming is when we will receive immortality and a changed body--that obviously hasn't happened yet. Finally, in 2 Peter 3:3-12 it starts out saying "mockers will say 'Where is the promise of His coming?'... But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up." Last I checked, the old sinful earth is still here and hasn't been burned up. Verses 8 & 9 say "But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentence." Looks like God has a different time table than us humans. Apparently a mere 70 years is nothing to Him. | ||
| Hiddenmanna Registered user Username: Hiddenmanna Post Number: 8 Registered: 12-2004 |
Quote: In Matthew 24:37-41 Jesus tells us the coming of Jesus will be like the days of Noah--"they did not understand until the flood came and took them away." If the coming of the flood is like the coming of Jesus, how is it possible for it to have already happened and nobody realizes it? I think when the flood came, everybody knew once it started happening! Good questions Raven, I'll try to answer them one at a time in separate postings. There is no doubt at all that the destruction of the Jews in Jerusalem was the Great Tribulation come down from God. (Lamentations 4:9-12; Ezekiel 5:5-17; Luke 21:20-23) You might also point out that the Bible says those were the days of vengeance, that all things, which are written, may be fulfilled. I am taking just several versions of the translations of the New Testament for this one verse from Luke 21:22, to indicate exactly what this verse does mean, as viewed by more that just one translator or group of translators. Greek Interlinear: ìfor days of avenging these are, that may be accomplished all things that have been written.î Todayís English Version: ìFor these are ëThe Days of Punishment,í to make come true all that the Scripture say.î Jerusalem Bible. ìFor this is the time of vengeance when all that scripture says must be fulfilled.î Phillips Modern English: ìFor these are the days of vengeance, when all that the scripture have said will come true.î New English Bible: ìbecause this is the time of retribution, when all that stands written is to be be fulfilled. Revised Standard Version: ìfor these are days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written.î I could go on and on, but you can see the plain evident meaning of this verse. By the time Jerusalem was destroyed ALL scripture would be fulfilled ever that about the great tribulation in the Old Testament and New Testament. Also Jesus had said, ìI am come to send FIRE on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?î (Luke 12:49). This was not to be literal fire, but the fire of His wrath and justice, and a change of religious systems. In Lamentations 2:3 it says,.. he burned against Jacob like a flaming fire devoureth round about.î This too was the fire of Godís great tribulation upon the Jews. You might also want to point out that the Jews in Hitler day were NOT the Jews who came against Christ and his church. Only the Jews in the first century fit that bill. And it was only upon them the great tribulation was to come. In fact Jesus said during the day of ìabomination of desolation there will be great tribulation (such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time no, nor ever shall be) (Matthew 24:15-21) It looks like our futurist brothers have a big, big problem. Every Christian scholars agrees the ìabomination of desolationî were during the days leading up to the destruction of Jerusalem. Well Jesus said (they were the days) of the great tribulation since the beginning of the world and ever again will there ever be. So the Jews who died by the hands of Hitler were NOT in the great tribulation. The dispensationalists and others do wrong to make tribulation be a stated period of time in our future. The Jewish world came tumbling down in A.D. 70. The Jewish nation was decimated. The outward symbols of the Old covenant, the ritualistic elements of the old religious system, the holy place (including the land, the city and the Temple) were completely destroyed. Nothing like this had ever happened to the Jewish people. Their world had ended. And it took all of this to show to them how wrong they had been in what they had done to Jesus Christ and then to His followers. ìImmediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. (Matthew 24:29) Note several things here also. First, Jesus is talking about the tribulation of ìTHOSE DAYSî (That is, of the very days during which the Jews were undergoing this terrible tribulation from A.D 67-70). ìThose daysî definitely determines the time in which is under discussion. Which means of course, that He is not talking about some ìtribulationî during a later course. Second, what He was talking about was to happen ìIMMEDIATELYî after the tribulation of those days.î The word ìimmediatelyî is from the Greek word eutheos which means ìat once, or soon, as soon as, forthwith, shortly, straight way.î There is another big problem. It certainly would not portray a time frame of over 2,000 years or so later. Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my nameís sake. Mat 24:10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. Mat 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. Mat 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. Mat 10:35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. Mat 10:36 And a manís foes [shall be] they of his own household. These passages could not be a more accurate description of the events leading up to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. One only has to read the Bible to see this is so. The book of Acts, as well as the epistles speak of intense persecution coming against the church. At first the early believers faced two classes of enemies. They were the unbelieving Jews and the Judaizers. The unbelieving Jews rejected the Messiah outright. Unbelieving zealots such as Saul brought great tribulation to the church. The Judaizers embraced Christ at first, but said that it was necessary to keep the Old Covenant to be saved. Thus, they had one foot in the Old Covenant and one foot in the New. These two groups did everything from organizing boycotts against Christians who would not confess that Caesar was lord to killing them outright. It was this divide between those who refused to leave the Old Covenant and those who embraced the New that caused son to turn against father etc. This fits the first century setting perfectly. As the time of the destruction of Jerusalem approached persecution against the church intensified greatly. A third persecutor arose. Rome. Nero, in his insanity, declared that the Christians were responsible for a great fire the engulfed Rome, and made them enemies of the state. Nero had Christians murdered in the most horrible ways including having them fed to wild beasts, burned at the stake, and killed in gladiatorial contests. So great was the onslaught against from these three persecutors that if the Jewish rebellion had not broken out, the church might have perished from the earth. Upon the death of Nero, Romeís persecution against the church ended. Instead, the wrath of Rome came upon the very Jews that had persecuted the church. Now, combine these things with Jesusí statement that all these things would happen within a generation, and you must conclude that ìthe tribulationî had already occurred. | ||
| Hiddenmanna Registered user Username: Hiddenmanna Post Number: 9 Registered: 12-2004 |
Quote: What about "every eye shall see Him". And in Paul's writings, it's very clear that at the second coming is when we will receive immortality and a changed body--that obviously hasn't happened yet. Acts 1:11 is one of the most misunderstood verses in our New Testament! Let's draw some biblical lessons from the Bible to see what the account of Act 1:11 really says. Most people agree that Jesus was in a material body at this time. That is indeed correct. And many also believe that the Angels told the disciples that Jesus will return just as He left-bodily and visible. That is not what our Acts 1:11 says however. Lets look at the verse 11 where it says: "Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven." (Acts 1:11) What was the manner that the disciples saw him go into heaven? Verse nine contains the answer. Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. (Acts 1:9) Verse 9 is speaking of the manner in which Jesus went into heaven. What was that manner? A cloud received Him out of their sight. Now just to see if we are correct in our understanding of the manner in which Jesus would return in these verses, let's ask another question. Did Jesus ever mention returning in the clouds when speaking of His second coming? But Jesus kept silent. And the high priest answered and said to Him, "I put You under oath by the living God: Tell us if You are the Christ, the Son of God!" Jesus said to him, "It is as you said. Nevertheless, I say to you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven." (Matthew 26:63-64) The first thing that should be noticed here (Jesus told the high priest he would see his return on the clouds of heaven not us today. And then there is this verse. "Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory (Matthew 24:30)." As you can see, these verses bear witness that Jesus returned in like manner to that of His departure. A cloud, or clouds, is the key. Clouds of course also speak of vengeance, wrath, and judgment against the enemies of God. (See Isaiah 19) Jesus was Jewish, and this was the reason why he chose to use Jewish apocalyptic language as He described His soon return to the people of His day. (Matthew 26: 63-64) The angels in Acts 1: 11 never made any kind of contradiction from anything that Jesus had already said. Jesus as did Paul used many types and shadows from the Old Testament scriptures. Where did Jesus get all the concepts of God riding on clouds and stuff from? The Old Testament. He is the very same God who was riding the clouds in judgment. This is a very big problem if you don't understand the Jewish apocalyptic mind. Many of us today face the same problem that confronted Jesus- trying to explain spiritual truth to those who insist on carnal literal interpretations to spiritual things. God is a Spirit and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth. (John 4:24) | ||
| Hiddenmanna Registered user Username: Hiddenmanna Post Number: 10 Registered: 12-2004 |
Quote: Finally, in 2 Peter 3:3-12 it starts out saying "mockers will say 'Where is the promise of His coming?'... But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up." Last I checked, the old sinful earth is still here and hasn't been burned up. Greek Word for Elements The heaven and earth have been a big problem for those who donít believe Jesusís words. The Greek word for elements used here in 2 Peret 3:12 is ìstoicheia,î and it appears in the NT only seven times. When you see the terms like ìelements,î ask yourself what this means? In Youngís Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the literal meaning of the word is ìelement, rudiment, principle.î In other words, these are the elements of religious common to the worship of the Jews in Israel. Futurists believe the elements of the physical heavens and earth were going to melt away or be burned up, especially in 2 Peter 3. Does this word ìelementsî refer to the scientific idea of the elements of matter, all the ìatomsî of the universe? The Bible does not say so. We will first look into seven other passages were the same word ìelementsî or in Greek ìstoicheiaî is used. I am using Young_s Literal Translation of the Holy Bible. 1. Gal. 4:3, 9 - ìSo also we, when we were babes, under the elements of the world were in servitude...and now, having known God and rather being known by God how turn ye again unto the weak and poor elements to which anew ye desire to be in servitude?î Notice Paul uses the word twice here. This context clearly Paul is asking the Jews of old who had been under the old law of Moses verse 3-5 and the Gentiles who had served idols in verse 8 how can they again return to those weak and poor elements which could not save. the Jews were held in bondage to the old law of Moses or the tradition of men. (In wonít go there this time) Paul exhorted the Christian brethren not to return to the bondage to that Law. The Law was our tutor to bring us into Christ that we might be justified by faith (Gal. 3:23-24). No man could keep that Law perfectly. The Gentiles served worthless idols. Both had been in bondage to the stoicheia of the world. Therefore, the use of ìelementsî is not about the physical world. 3. Heb. 5:12 - ìFor even owing to be teachers, because of the time, again ye have need that one teach you what are the elements of the beginning of the oracles of God, and ye have become having need of milk, and not of strong food.î This writer laments to the Jewish Christians (Hebrews) the fact that they had not grown in Christ as they should. The writer says they need someone to teach them again with ìmilk, not solid foodî in elementary principles of Godís oracles before becoming teachers and mature. Obviously, this ìstoicheiaî is not about atoms or the creation of the universe. 4. 2 Peter 3:10-13 - ìAnd it will comeóthe day of the Lordóas a thief in the night, in which the heavens with a rushing noise will pass away, and the elements with burning heat be dissolved, and earth and the works in it shall be burnt up. All these, then, being dissolved, what kind of persons doth it behove you to be in holy behaviours and pious acts? waiting for and hasting to the presence of the day of God, by which the heavens, being on fire, shall be dissolved, and the elements with burning heat shall melt; and for new heavens and a new earth according to His promise we do wait, in which righteousness doth dwellî Paul uses the very same word ìelementsî or in Greek ìstoicheiaî here. The fast is ìelementsî does not, in its verse and other previous passages, ever refer to the physical universe. Nowhere do the Scriptures teach that this physical creation will be destroyed. Bible itself is in harmony as the Scriptures interpret the Scriptures. Psalms 78:** And he built his sanctuary like high palaces, like the (earth which he has established for ever). Psalms 96:10 Say among the heathen that the Lord reigns (the world also shall be established that it shall not be moved). Psalms 119:89-90 For ever O Lord thy word is settled in heaven, Thy faithulness is unto all generations thou has established the (earth and it abideth). Ecclesiastes 1:4 One generation passeth away, and another generation come but (the earth abideth for ever). Isaiah 45:17 But Israel shall be saved in the Lord with an everlasting salvation you shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end. Now the New Testament Ephesians 3:21 unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus (throughout all ages, world without end Amen). JKV | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 134 Registered: 7-2004 |
What about these ones, from my post above? "Also, Jesus talks several times throughout the gospels about at His coming, the sheep will be separated from the goats, and the evil people will be thrown into outer darkness. Good and evil haven't been separated yet." "2 Peter 3, verses 8 & 9 say "But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentence." Looks like God has a different time table than us humans. Apparently a mere 70 years is nothing to Him." I'm aware that what happened in AD 70 was significant and was certainly a Great Tribulation, and in fact there may very well be no greater tribulation. But I also have a very hard time believing that the second coming already happened. To me, the Bible seems to make it very clear that the second coming will be such a huge and obvious event that it would be impossible for people to not to know it had happened, just like Noah's flood. If the Bible is so symbolic in every way, how is there hope for anyone to understand anything from it? | ||
| Speakeasy Registered user Username: Speakeasy Post Number: 207 Registered: 9-2002 |
Wow what a timely subject. I was listening yesterday to the radio to "The Bible answere man" with Hank Hendergraph and Lee Strobel. The 2 of them believe and teach this theory of "Preterist" what is sad and I really don't know about this subject very much. But they had caller after caller. Just in shock that they have been taught wrong and possibly they needed to find a "Real" bible teaching church. I guess if you do not believe in the way they (Lee Strobel and the bible answere man)do. You are being lied to. And have been listening to faults teachers and pastors. It is amazing when I heard this the other day. That people in hearing this for the very first time. That they wanted to leave there churchs and find another pastor and church. I am kind of mad at Hank and Good Ole Lee Strobel. They have millions of people that listen to them and believe everyword that they say and read. And in one 15 minute segment they sounded like my old pastor "We are the ones that are telling you the truth and all others are wrong and have faults worldly views" I would have liked to got on there show and I tried but it was taped. And told the people that are listening that just because Hank and Mr.Strobel says something does not make it biblical and true. One more thing if Lee Strobel Believes in that all the book of Revelations and Daniel has taken place. Why does Lee Strobel in his books say you need to be ready for the coming of Jesus and miss the bowl judgements that will come on the earth. So what does this all mean? If the book of Daniel and Revelation has allready taken place. Were is all the Bowl Judgements and the destruction of 2/3rds of the human race? When did the judgement it self happen? When is the 144,000 Jewish men are going to go around the world and proclaim the end time good news to all that will listen. When is the time of we will not be able to by or sale anything going to happen? Were is the rebuilt Temple? Were is our Messiah is he setting on the throne on earth? If the book of Revealtions and Daniel has allready been fulfilled as they were saying in 70ad. I guess the 1,000 millineum ended in 1070ad. When are we going to get our heavenly perfected body's. I am still waiting. I don't understand!!!! I hope I am not sounding stupid and wierd. I was just amazed that just because Lee Strobel and The Bible answere man said these things people were ready to leave there chuchs and proclaim that the churchs and pastors of those churchs were faults teachers. What do all of you think. speakeasy | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 636 Registered: 7-2003 |
I think you have good questions, speakeasy. The topic is very deep and each side cannot properly be represented with a few snippits here and there. What I fail to see in these debates many times is that we are talking to fellow-believers. We're talking to people who are trying to understand scripture and do not come to someone else's conclusion, so we attack them for not seeing everything the way we do. I've listened to one side, and thought ...that makes sense.... Then I've listened to another side and thought ... that makes sense. What I've noticed is that each separates which is symbolism and which is literal based upon the view they already hold to. Some don't use scriptures that others do in part of escatology study. Some see double fulfillments, others see only one fulfillment. I'm very blessed and fortunate that my pastor is a "pan" theologian in that regards. He speaks specifically to what the Bible says and makes little speculation on how that will play out admitting he doesn't know all the answers. I have also been blessed with ministers strongly on one side but begin every escatological discussion saying these are not grounds for division and we are all brothers and sisters in the Lord even if you read things differently than he does. I have a hard time thinking all the prophecies of the Bible have been fulfilled and that Jesus came "symbolically" or in some other non-real way. Especially in today's technology, it is easy to see how "all eyes will see him" even if they're on the other side of the globe. I personally haven't spent enough time studying it to take a dogmatic view, though I was certainly taught one side more than any other growing up. If we all put ourselves into the position that God is still teaching us, we might learn things from all perspectives that get us closer to understanding the word of God, but I doubt we'll ever have "all" the answers.... Your questions aren't dumb, and I share many of them! | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 1105 Registered: 12-2003 |
I agree, good questions, Speakeasy. And Meslissa, I agree with your views above. We just aren't given all the answers to all the questions. I see our situation today as being very like that of the world at the time Jesus was born. The prophecies of His birth really weren't any clearer than are the prophecies of how "it will all end". I guess one of the reasons I still believe not all has yet happened is that, unlike Jesus' incarnation suddenly making so many prophecies "fit" together as a whole picture, I still see end-time prohecies looking like separate pieces of a large picture. But in truth, we really don't know how it will all look until "it", whatever it is, comes to pass. Questions remain! Colleen | ||
| Hiddenmanna Registered user Username: Hiddenmanna Post Number: 11 Registered: 12-2004 |
One Coming with Two Phases The fact is the Old Testament Jewish prophets never even heard of a second coming in the Old Testament. The Jews never had the concept of a (second coming) and since it was the Jews Godís prophets who first taught the notion of a Messiah, it seems quite reasonable to respect their inspired opinion more then anyone elseís today. They say one short fulfillment period with two phases to it: a suffering humiliation phase and a victorious consummation phase. This is the way the Jews have always viewed it, therefore Jesus could also say. When you are persecuted in one place, flee to another. I tell you the truth, you will not finish going through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes. (NIV Matthew 10:23) Jesus like the Old Testament prophets never distinguish between two different coming separated by thousands of years. This kind of language is not used by the Christ or his old testament prophets (see Isa. 35:4-6, 40:10-11, 61:1-2, 62:11, 63:1-6, 66:6-16; Zech. 14; and Mal.4:1-6) There for before anyone in our day who is not inspired can assign verses to 2.000 years in our future, they must first prove to me from the old testament or new testament that the Jewish writers clearly distinguished between two different coming of Christ. In fact the phrases ìsecond comingî and ìfinal comingî are not mentioned anywhere in scripture. It is a gentile concept that is totally alien to Biblical Judaism that is in the Bible. This is a vital point that is totally ignored today. The Jewish prophets never implied two comings divided by centuries. The only place in the NT which even comes close to teaching a second advent is Heb. 9:28 where it says Christ will (appear a second time). This was using the Jewish symbolism of the High Priest at Yom Kippur when he took the blood into the holy place and then reappeared back outside the tabernacle (Temple) to announce that atonement had been accomplished. So my question would remain the same. Please show me were an old testament prophet clearly says there is a (second coming) many centuries away from the first appearing. Jesus also makes this point when talking with the high priest Caiaphas. And the high priest arose and said to Him, ìDo You answer nothing? What is it these men testify against You?î But Jesus kept silent. And the high priest answered and said to Him, ìI put You under oath by the living God: Tell us if You are the Christ, the Son of God!î Jesus said to him, ìIt is as you said. Nevertheless, I say to you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.î (Mathew 26:62-64) Notice here that Jesus said Caiaphas would see his return (not us). Jesus held the very same Jewish concept about his return as his Old Testament prophets. Jesus never distinguished between two different coming separated by thousands of years. He said Caiaphas would see his return. There is another dilemma in scripture. Talking about the time of the end Paul said: Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come. (1Cor 10:11) According to Paul all the things that happen in the wilderness were examples to (them the first century saints) upon whom the ends of the world had come. End of what world? The end of the world of Judaism. No temple no system of Judaism. These things were written for their admonition because it was their fore fathers who were scattered in the wilderness. We never had family scattered in the wilderness or baptized into Moses ( 1 Cor. 10:1-5) The first century saints were living at the end of the world, as Paul has clearly said. They were living in end time. How do I know this? Because the Covenant we live in has on end. Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, (Hebrew 13:20) You cannot put a end on a everlasting covenant, but you can on the covenant of the law which happen in AD-70. The writer Of Hebrews also said speaking of Jesus. He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the world, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself (Heb. 9:28 KJV) Some Bible say (age or world) but the point is the same. This is the very same end Paul clearly says was upon the first century saints. What happen a few short years after Paul and the writer of Hebrews said these words? The end of there know world, came to a end with the destruction of the temple and the system of Biblical Judaism. As I have been saying before anyone in our day who is not inspired can assign verses to 2.000 years in our future, they must first prove to me from the old testament or new testament that the Jewish writers clearly distinguished between two different coming of Christ. Jesus never did (Mathew 26:62-64). Just look at these scriptures. In Luke 4:18-20 the day of vengeance of our God is left out when compared to Isaiahís version of this scripture. That is because the day of vengeance of our God was to be fulfilled according to Luke 21:20-24 and that was when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. When that happened was in 70 AD and that was also when all things which are written, may be fulfilled. So then in Luke 4:18-20 was when Jesus was ministering on earth and Luke 21 was when Jesus came in the clouds of judgment fulfilling the rest of Isaiah 61 about the day of vengeance of our God. Christ came as a suffering servant in the physical realm and then He came as a conquering King in the spiritual realm on the Day of Vengeance in 70 AD. Just like the Father would use another nation to execute judgment on Israel when Israel had forsaken God in the Old Testament, so also did Jesus use the Roman army to destroy Jerusalem as a result of rejecting Him and persecuting the saints of the first century. Luke 4 18îThe Spirit of the LORD is upon Me, Because He has anointed Me To preach the gospel to the poor; He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted, To proclaim liberty to the captives And recovery of sight to the blind, To set at liberty those who are oppressed; 19To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD.î 20Then He closed the book, and gave it back to the attendant and sat down. And the eyes of all who were in the synagogue were fixed on Him. 21And He began to say to them, ìToday this Scripture is fulfilled in your hearing.î Isaiah 61 The Good News of Salvation The Good News of Salvation 1 ìThe Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon Me, Because the LORD has anointed Me To preach good tidings to the poor; He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted, To proclaim liberty to the captives, And the opening of the prison to those who are bound; 2To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, And the day of vengeance of our God; Luke 21 The Destruction of Jerusalem 20 ìBut when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 21Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 22For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. 24And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. | ||
| Hiddenmanna Registered user Username: Hiddenmanna Post Number: 12 Registered: 12-2004 |
Raven, I will try to answer your remaining questions later on. I do not have all the answers, I;ve only been reading about the preterist view since March. | ||
| Hiddenmanna Registered user Username: Hiddenmanna Post Number: 13 Registered: 12-2004 |
Ezekielís Bone Yard Then He said to me, ìSon of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel. They indeed say, ëOur bones are dry, our hope is lost, and we ourselves are cut off!í Therefore prophesy and say to them, ëThus says the Lord GOD: ìBehold, O My people, I will open your graves and cause you to come up from your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel. Then you shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves. I will put My Spirit in you, and you shall live, and I will place you in your own land. Then you shall know that I, the LORD, have spoken it and performed it,î says the LORD.íî (Ezekiel 37:11-14) During the Babylonian captivity Israel was cut off from her homeland. They spent seventy years in another country. (Hereís the point.) Israel was cut off from the Promised Land was, in the sight of God, as dead! All these Jews were alive physically, but as the Lord showed Ezekiel they were in a valley of dry bones and in a grave nationally. God in restoring His people to their own land uses the figure of graves opening and His people coming forth in national resurrection. Reader if you now understand this second meaning of death (national Jews cut off from the promised land), then you possess a valuable tool in understanding mans separated from God in (Genesis 3:23-24). Man was cut off from the tree of life and no longer in the presence of God. Man was cut off from God, just like Israel was cut off from their promise land while in Babylonian captivity. To God they were also separated from Him and in a grave nationally. It was after Babylonian captivity that Jerusalem was re-built that futurist get confused with the day we are living in right now when it comes to the re-building of the temple. Most of the prophecies concerning the restoration of Israel by Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, etc. had to do with the Herodís temple. Not any future temple where a world ruler called the Antichrist will be. After 70 AD the only temple that scripture deals with is the body of the believer in which indwells Jesus Christ. Well the Father and Holy Spirit also. In Christ is the fullness of the Godhead bodily the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Colossians 2 8Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ. 9For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily; 10 and you are complete in Him, who is the head of all principality and power. | ||
| Hiddenmanna Registered user Username: Hiddenmanna Post Number: 14 Registered: 12-2004 |
The Preterist 1000 years The Preterist generally takes the position that the ìThousand Yearsî or Millennium is that 40 year transition period between 26 A.D (Christís ministry) and 66 A.D. (The beginning of the Jewish War). The Millennium is marked by the binding of Satan in Christís earthly ministry and consummated in the destruction of Jerusalem. This was that period when the Old Covenant was dying as the New Covenant was maturing. The New Covenant finally reached itís fullness at the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. when the Lord came in judgment and rewarded those faithful saints who were eagerly awaiting His Parousia (Matt. 16:27-28). This marks the passing away of the old ìHeavens and Earthî (Rev. 21/Old Covenant) and the bringing in of the ìNew Heavens and Earthî (Rev.22/New Covenant). The New Covenant is an everlasting covenant that will never end. Satan was defeated (Rom 16:20), death (spiritual) was destroyed (1 Cor. 15:26) and complete salvation accompanied Christ at his second coming (Hebrews 9:28). The ìThousand Yearsî is to be understood as a perfect number of years rather than a quantitative amount of years. The ìendî or ìlast daysî marked the end of old covenant Israel or the ìlast daysî of the sacrificial system and the beginning of the new covenant Church. The Bible speaks about the ìtime of the endî and NOT the ìend of timeî. There is a BIG difference. You need to get a copy of Ed Stevens audio tape series concerning ìThe Thousand Yearsî. You will find that this was a very big topic amongst the Hebrew Rabbi of the first century. Ed documents this very well. In studying Midrash and the Mishnah you will find many first century Rabbi refering to this period as ìThe days of Messiahî. This was a BIG topic of the day. They called this period ìThe Thousand Yearsî because many Rabbi thought that it might be a literal 1000 years but no longer. Many though, believed that this was a 40 year period and reflected the 40 year wilderness wandering of Israel. So, it came to be known as ìThe Thousand Yearsî doctrine. A first century Jew has a much better grasp on these things than a 20th century western individual. The Hebrew culture has much symbolism when dealing with prophetic literature. | ||
| Hiddenmanna Registered user Username: Hiddenmanna Post Number: 15 Registered: 12-2004 |
Satan Destroyed There is a tool to understand the Bible that most Christians do not use. It is called ( consistent hermeneutic and grammatico). Consistent ñ Conforming regularly to the same patterns, habits, principles ect. (Noah Webster) Hermeneutic - the interpretation of Scripture by means of Scripture, is a corollary of the belief in the unity of Scripture. (biblical literature) Grammatico - The grammatico reminds us that we are to treat nouns as nouns and verbs as verbs. 1. Relating to grammar. 2. Correct according to the rules of grammar. ìThe grammatic structure of a sentenceî( Rhymezone Translating Dictionary/Thesaurus) Most of the differences in view between Christians lie mainly in their hermenutical views. Some donít use Scripture to interpret Scripture were by they go against the rules of grammar. However the correct way to interpret Scripture is to let Scripture interpret Scripture when ever possible. To do that last go back to the book of beginnings, after man sinned, where we will see the terms of the curse placed on Satan as stated by God. He speaks first to the serpent saying...you are cursed more than all cattle, and beast of the field; on your belly you shall go, and ìyou shall eat dust all the days of your life.î (Genes 3:14) NKJV Emphasis mine. The ìdust that Satan is cursed to eat all the days of his life is not the sand of this material planet, for he is a spiritual being. Then the question is what other dust on this earth could a spiritual being be cursed to eat? God formed ìman of the dustî of the groundî, Genesis 2:7,3:19 and it is this dust that the serpent is cursed to ëeatí all the days of his life. But is there any scripture to support that idea elsewhere. Letís now turn to the prophet Isaiah and look at an astounding passage of Scripture. In chapter sixty-five, beginning in verse seventeen, the prophet extols the glories of the new covenant, which is known as the heaven and earth. It is highly figurative language showing the blessing of the ìnew covenantî in contrast to Godís Judgment (as seen in the preceding verses). It is in the last two verses that we find our scriptural support which reads. ëIt shall come to pass that before they call, I will answer; and while they are still speaking, I will hear. The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, the lion shall eat straw like the ox, ìand dust shall be the serpentís food.î They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain,í says the LORD. (Isaiah 65:24-25) These glorious statements that symbolize peace and joy in Godís presence under the new covenant, also include a phrase that would seem unrelated. It says,....and dust shall be the serpentís food. The imagery of prophesy from Genesis 3:14 is woven together into a new garment in Isaiah 65:24-25. How can we reconcile this statement with the glories of the heavenly city? Notice it says they shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain,í says the LORD. These Scriptures testify that Satan, the curse, pain, sorrow, and crying have no part of the new heaven and earth. They are forever removed! The term, no more curse, pain, sorrow, and crying have to do with life under the Old Covenant. Those who lived under the law and did not obey the commandments of God were under these things just read. (Deuteronomy 28) Isaiah tells us that Satan is still under the edict of the Genesis curse even after the consummated new heavens and new earth. The only place left to him then is where there is ìdust.î Remember, God told the serpent he had to eat dust all the days of his life (existence). (Gen.3:140) Because Satan is a fallen angel (a spirit), he is immortal. While it is true! Satan endures the torments of the lake of fire and brimstone, which means he is out of the presence of God forever. And can never again have any influence on the inhabitants of the holy city, which is a ìburning, eternal torment to him. It is equally true, as foreseen by the prophet Isaiah, that dust shall be the serpentís food. Satan is like a bad dog with NO teeth at the end of a short leash. He has no power over the redeemed in Christ. So we cannot say the devil, made me do it. Because of mans sin nature, he does not need any influence from Satan to kill his brother because unsaved man is wicked in his heart. The wicked watcheth the righteous, and seeketh to slay him. Psalms 37:32 Christ crushed Satan beneath the feet of His saints long ago (Romans 16:20). All we have to do is walk in the Spirit on that victory ground and see that it has been done. Christís Description of the Pharisees: Matthew 12:34 O offspring of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh. Matthew 23:33 Ye serpents, ye offspring of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell? Even John the Baptist recognized this: Matthew 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O offspring of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Since Christ said that these Pharisees were the offspring of snakes, and He also said that their father was the devil... The serpent is a familiar character in the Old Testament canon. Carrying its venom beneath its tongue, the serpent beguiled the woman in the garden. (Gen. 3:1-4) The serpent thence became a figure for sin and death, the ultimate enemy of man. Jesus called Judas Iscariot a ìdevil.î (John. 6:70) In a similar manner, the high priests and elders of the Jews are probably in contemplation when it says that the ìdevilî put it into the heart of Judas to betray Christ for money. (John. 13:2) The Greek term translated devil is diabolos, meaning an accuser, a slanderer. It is derived from the word diabolo, to accuse or malign. In the latter days, Paul said men would be ìdiaboloiî viz., ìfalse accusersî (II Tim. 3:3; Tit. 2:3) The Jews spread venomous lies against the church throughout the ancient world, seeking its destruction. For their slanders and accusations the Jews are described as the devil and his angels waging war with Christ and his disciples. Jesus also said that the devil came to kill and destroy. Certainly there was enmity between the first-century Christians and the Pharisees. Of course all true believers throughout the Old Covenant, especially prophets, were hated and/or killed by the Pharisees. They killed through their words and through their actions: Matthew 23:35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was [b] a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. When they were removed in AD 70 they were crushed beneath the feet of the first century saints. | ||
| Hiddenmanna Registered user Username: Hiddenmanna Post Number: 16 Registered: 12-2004 |
The Rapture Defined Here is my study, theology of the rapture. Revelation 21:3 and I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, ìBehold, the dwelling of God is with men. He will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself will be with them One of the most misunderstood events in scripture is known as the rapture. For futurist and preterist alike, only the timing of this event seems to warrant debate. Much can be known about a personís eschatology if he is a pre-tribulation, mid or post-tribulation believer in the rapture. I believe the single most important aspect of the rapture, is missed by almost all believers. It is not the timing that is so crucial, but the manner of itís fulfillment. The mission of the rapture has been completely missed by modern day Christendom. The rapture is [was] not an event where men would disappear and go to dwell with God, but where God would descend from heaven in a cloud to forever dwell with man! In fact, the deliverance from the ìtime of troubleî spoken of by Daniel was not the ìraptureî of 1 Thessalonians 4:17 or 1 Corinthians 15:23, 51-54. They were 2 separate events, separated by 3 1/2 years as spoken of by Daniel. I will attempt to prove my rapture theology based on 3 main issues: 1. Christís intent was for us as believers to be delivered from evil, not from the planet. Oneness in the Father, here on earth, is the ultimate goal. 2. Christ and the Apostles gave the Christians numerous warnings to watch. Christ Himself told them to flee. It would be pointless to flee if rescue was coming forcefully and required no action on the part of the person being rescued. 3. 1 Thessalonians 4:17 is poorly interpreted based on already preconceived notions of the manner of the rapture. Most do not see that Revelation 21 and 1 Thessalonians 4, along with the prophecy of Christ concerning the gathering from the 4 winds, are parallel passages. 1. Christ Did Not Intend a Forceful Deliverance by Disappearance In John 17 and Christís prayer before His death. This gives us the intent of the Father. John 17:14 I have given them thy word; and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 15 I do not pray that thou shouldst take them out of the world, but that thou shouldst keep them from the evil one. 16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 17 Sanctify them in the truth; thy word is truth. 18 As thou didst send me into the world, so I have sent them into the world. 19 And for their sake I consecrate myself, that they also may be consecrated in truth. 20 ìI do not pray for these only, but also for those who believe in me through their word, 21 that they may all be one; even as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. 22 The glory which thou hast given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one, 23 I in them and thou in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that thou hast sent me and hast loved them even as thou hast loved me. The intent of Christ, and therefore will of the Father was that we would be made One in Him and the Father (verse 21-22). He specifically asked God not to deliver them by taking them out of the world, but by keeping them safe from the evil one. He then prayed for those who come to believe after the Apostles, that through their testimony we would as well become One in them. So again in verse 15 Christ prays for ìdeliveranceî from the evil one. Daniel uses this same language of deliverance in Daniel 12. Daniel 12:1 ìAt that time shall arise Michael, the great prince who has charge of your people. And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation till that time; but at that time your people shall be delivered, every one whose name shall be found written in the book. This deliverance is not a disappearance. Christís own words show us that this was not His intent. The intent was simply to be delivered from evil. I liken this to Christís own analogy of Noah being delivered from the flood. Matt 24:36 ìBut of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only. 37 As were the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of man. 38 For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, 39 and they did not know until the flood came and swept them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of man. Noah was delivered from Godís wrath, not by being forcefully dragged away, but by heeding the direction of the Lord. They had the responsibility to believe and heed to be delivered. The same is true of the deliverance spoken of in Daniel. Christís own discourse likens Noahís deliverance to the Day of the Lord. We will find a strong case against a disappearance in that alone. 2. Defense Against 2 ìRapturesî/Resurrections Separated by 3 1/2 Years of Wrath. The only defense against Christís warnings to flee and the Apostles warnings to watch come from the pre-tribulation theologians. This is not much of a defense. The ìraptureî event would not be separated from a final resurrection. They were simultaneous events. The rapture and resurrection that was to occur in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 and 1 Corinthians 15:23,51-54, was only to happen at the end of the days. That ìrapture,î that resurrection, would be the final event in the passing of the age. The passing of the Old Heavens and Old Earth. Daniel 12:1 ìAt that time shall arise Michael, the great prince who has charge of your people. And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation till that time; but at that time your people shall be delivered, every one whose name shall be found written in the book. 2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 And those who are wise shall shine like the brightness of the firmament; and those who turn many to righteousness, like the stars forever and ever. The deliverance spoken of by Daniel was to happen at the time of the Great Tribulation. I do not believe that the Christians would experience the last 3 1/2 years of wrath spoken of in Revelation. They were not appointed unto wrath, which was why Christ told them to flee when they saw Jerusalem surrounded by armies. The time of vengeance declared against Jerusalem (Matt 23:31-38), against that harlot Babylon (Revelation 6,17, and 19), was not to be experienced by the Christians. As Noah was directed to build an ark out of faith so that he would be delivered from Godís wrath during the flood, so the Christians were told to flee, by faith in Christís words, when they saw Jerusalem surrounded by armies. They would be delivered as Noah was. This WAS NOT the ìrapture,î but it was the deliverance spoken by Daniel in verse 2 above! The ìraptureî of 1 Thessalonians 4:17 and 1 Corinthians 15 was not going to occur until the ìend of the daysî as spoken by the angel to the prophet Daniel. Only at the ìend of the daysî would Daniel ìriseî to his inheritance. Daniel 12:6 And I said to the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the stream, ìHow long shall it be till the end of these wonders?î 7 The man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the stream, raised his right hand and his left hand toward heaven; and I heard him swear by him who lives for ever that it would be for a time, two times, and half a time; and that when the shattering of the power of the holy people comes to an end all these things would be accomplished. Ö..12 Blessed is he who waits and comes to the thousand three hundred and thirty-five days. 13 But go your way till the end; and you shall rest, and shall rise to your allotted place at the end of the days.î This is confirmed by the passage in 1 Corinthians 15. The defeat of death was the end of everything. The shattering of the Holy people was the end of everything. Death would be defeated when the ìraptureî and resurrection occurred. 1 Corinthians 15:23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. 24 Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 ìFor God has put all things in subjection under his feet.î But when it says, ìAll things are put in subjection under him,î it is plain that he is accepted who put all things under him. 28 When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things under him, that God may be everything to every oneÖÖÖ 51 Lo! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. 53 For this perishable nature must put on the imperishable, and this mortal nature must put on immortality. 54 When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written: ìDeath is swallowed up in victory.î 55 ìO death, where is thy victory? O death, where is thy sting?î Pre-tribulation rapture theologians try to separate 1 Corinthians 15:23 from verses 24-26. They use the transition phrase ìthen comes the endî in verse 24 to say that after verse 23, the end of the age, 3 1/2 years of Daniel 12, occur, followed by a second and final resurrection. However a further read of this chapter shows us that the ìraptureî/resurrection spoken of in verse 23 was the defeat of death, and therefore, it was the end. Read again: 54 When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written: ìDeath is swallowed up in victory.î 55 ìO death, where is thy victory? O death, where is thy sting?î The defeat of death occurs at the event pre-tribulationists consider the ìrapture!!î Therefore, as Daniel 12:13 signifies, it happens ìat the end of the days.î There is only one ìraptureî in scripture and it takes place at the same time as the resurrection of all saints. 3. The Warnings to Flee and Watch By Christ and the Apostles Eliminate the Daniel 12 ìDeliveranceî From Being the Same Event as the ìRaptureî The deliverance ìat that timeî of the tribulation spoken of by Daniel was the heeding, by faith, of Christís warnings to flee and the Apostles warnings to watch. Again, the deliverance of Daniel 12:2 cannot be the ìraptureî of 1 Thessalonians 4 and 1 Corinthians 15 because the deliverance was to happen at the beginning of the 3 1/2 years of wrath, where the ìraptureî and resurrection would be at the fulfillment of it all at the ìend of the days.î If these events were one in the same, the warnings to flee would be useless, unneeded. I do not believe Christ gives any unneeded direction. Matthew 24:15 ìSo when you see the desolating sacrilege spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains; 17 let him who is on the housetop not go down to take what is in his house; 18 and let him who is in the field not turn back to take his mantle. 19 And alas for those who are with child and for those who give suck in those days! 20 Pray that your flight may not be in winter or on a sabbath. 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be. Again in Luke 21: 21:20 ìBut when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, and let those who are inside the city depart, and let not those who are out in the country enter it; 22 for these are days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written. The only people to heed the warnings of Christ would be the Christians who had faith enough to listen. Like in the days of Noah, the Christians were mocked, persecuted and killed for their faith. And like in the days of Noah, the Christians would heed the warnings to flee and the wicked, who did not, would be destroyed. The ëtakenî in the Matthew passage was referring to the wicked and not the righteous. All though Noah fled into the ark, and the Christians had to flee into the hills, they are spoken of as the ones being left. It was the wicked, who were taken. Matt 24:37 As were the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of man. 38 For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, 39 and they did not know until the flood came and TOOK THEM all away, so will be the coming of the Son of man. 40 Then two men will be in the field; one is TAKEN and one is left. 41 Two women will be grinding at the mill; one is TAKEN and one is left. 42 Watch therefore, for you do not know on what day your Lord is coming. This again affirms that the passage is not e dealing with a Christian disappearance, but a destruction of the wicked. All the Christians need do is watch for the signs and flee as Christ warned them to. As Noah did when he entered the ark! 1 Thessalonians 5:1 But as to the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need to have anything written to you. 2 For you yourselves know well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3 When people say, ìThere is peace and security,î then sudden destruction will come upon them as travail comes upon a woman with child, and there will be no escape. 4 But you are not in darkness, brethren, for that day to surprise you like a thief. 5 For you are all sons of light and sons of the day; we are not of the night or of darkness. 6 So then let us not sleep, as others do, but let us keep awake and be sober. 7 For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk are drunk at night. 8 But, since we belong to the day, let us be sober, and put on the breastplate of faith and love, and for a helmet the hope of salvation. 9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 who died for us so that whether we wake or sleep we might live with him. Their faithfulness to watch would be their escape. They were not in darkness, so it would not overtake them as a thief. Not like the wicked in the days of Noah who were drunk and marry and were surprised by the flood. They would be sober, and mindful. Why?! Because they had to flee when the signs told them so. The signs Christ spoke of!! Matt 24:15 ìSo when you see the desolating sacrilege spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand),ÖÖ 23 Then if any one says to you, ëLo, here is the Christ!í or ëThere he is!í do not believe it. 24 For false Christs and false prophets will arise and show great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect. 25 Lo, I have told you beforehand. 26 So, if they say to you, ëLo, he is in the wilderness,í do not go out; if they say, ëLo, he is in the inner rooms,í do not believe itÖ.42 Watch therefore, for you do not know on what day your Lord is coming. Luke 21:20 ìBut when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near. Some say that if they did not know when the Lord is coming (Matt 24:42), they would be taken by surprise like a thief in the night. (2 Peter 3:10, 1 Thess 5). Again, they were told to watch, they knew the signs of the times, they were not in darkness. So at the time Christ told them they do not know when, THEY DIDNíT!! However THEY WOULD know by the signs when they came, and only the wicked would be surprised. 4. The Rapture Defined!! Now that I have showed Daniels 12:2 deliverance and the ìraptureî of 1 Thessalonians and 1 Corinthians are separate events, I will define the ìrapture.î First of all, the intent of Christ, therefore the will of the Father, was that we all be made one in Him (John 17). We were not to be taken away. We were to be restored to a relationship with the Father. 1 Corinthians 15:23-28 shows us this. 1 Corinthians 15:23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. 24 Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 ìFor God has put all things in subjection under his feet.î But when it says, ìAll things are put in subjection under him,î it is plain that he is excepted who put all things under him. 28 When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things under him, that God may be all in all. Again in Hebrews: Heb 10:10 And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 11 And every priest stands daily at his service, offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, 13 then to wait until his enemies should be made a stool for his feet. 14 For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are sanctified. 15 And the Holy Spirit also bears witness to us; for after saying, 16 ìThis is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the Lord: I will put my laws on their hearts, and write them on their minds,î 17 then he adds, ìI will remember their sins and their misdeeds no more.î 18 Where there is forgiveness of these, there is no longer any offering for sin. Christ himself declared that the gathering of the elect would be the final outcome after everything was finished. Matthew 24:29 ìImmediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken; 30 then will appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory; 31 and he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. The gathering, bringing together the elect from the 4 winds, into the presence of God, is the final outcome. The ìrapture.î The entire goal of the defeat of death was to restore the Edenic covenant God had with man. What Adam created in his sin, death, which was passed down to all men, would be defeated and God would again dwell with man as He did in Eden. Revelation 21 gives us the perfect description of this relationship. Rev 21:1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. 2 And I saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband; 3 and I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, ìBehold, the dwelling of God is with men. He will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself will be with them; 4 he will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning nor crying nor pain any more, for the former things have passed away.î 5 And he who sat upon the throne said, ìBehold, I make all things new.î Also he said, ìWrite this, for these words are trustworthy and true.î 6 And he said to me, ìIt is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. To the thirsty I will give from the fountain of the water of life without payment. 7 He who conquers shall have this heritage, and I will be his God and he shall be my son. 8 But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the polluted, as for murderers, fornicators, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their lot shall be in the lake that burns with fire and sulphur, which is the second death.î What most people miss, due to the lack of understanding the final goal of the fulfillment of all things, is the proper interpretation of 1 Thessalonians 4:17. The ìraptureî is God coming to dwell with man. 1 Thessalonians 4:17 is the parallel verse of Revelation 21:3. It is NOT man going up to be with God in the third heaven as often interpreted! Read: 1 Thessalonians 4:15 For this we declare to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left for coming of the Lord, shall not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the archangelís call, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first; This resurrection includes Daniel. For he would not rise until the end of the days. They would go to be with the Lord in his presence before those who were alive were caught up. Now Paul describes what happens to those ìwho are left,î who are ìalive and remain.î 17 then we who are alive, who are left, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words. This seems to support a typical point of view that we join those who were raised in heaven. However verse 17 is badly misinterpreted due to a lack of understanding the intent of it all. The phrase ìwith themî is more correctly interpreted ìwith Him.î Here is Strongs: The word for ìthemî is Aujtovþ - himself, herself, themselves, itself , he, she, it. Based on the final outcome of Christís return, God dwelling with man, it should read: 17 then we who are alive, who are left, shall be caught up together with Him in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so we shall always be with the Lord. The reason I link this verse to verse 3 of Revelation 21 is itís repetition of God with man. For lack of a better term, 3 seems to be a ìmagicî number in scripture. The gathering of Godís people into His presence repeated 3 times in Thessalonians, mirrors the declaration that God dwells with man 3 times in Revelation 21:3. 1 Thess 4:17 then we who are alive, who are left, shall be caught up together with Him in the clouds (1 time) to meet the Lord in the air (2 times); and so we shall always be with the Lord (3 times). Rev 21:3 and I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, ìBehold, the dwelling of God is with men (1 time). He will dwell with them, and they shall be his people (2 times), and God himself will be with them (3 times); Many will ask how can that be since 1 thessalonians 4:17 declares they would be ìcaught upÖin the cloudsî to ìmeet the Lord in the air,î yet Revelation 21:3 declares God coming down to dwell with man. First of all, the clouds are already understood by the preterist to stand for the presence of God. This is confirmed by Strongs . The word for ìcloudî in Greek is nefevlh - a cloud, used of the cloud which led the Israelites in the wilderness. It was the presence of God, the shikinah glory, that led the Israelites out of Egypt. Secondly, the word for air in Strongs refers to the atmosphere we dwell in now, the air we breath, this planet! The word for ìairî in Greek is ajhvr - from aemi (to breathe unconsciously, i.e. respire; by analogy, to blow) the air, particularly the lower and denser air as distinguished from the higher and rarer air! This confirms the entire passage has nothing to do with those who were alive and remain being brought up to heaven with the dead. It is simply stating that we, as well as the dead, would dwell in the presence of God forever!! Why else would Paul use the two phrases ìwho are leftî and ìalive and remainî in verses 15 and 17? Because those alive at the time of the ìraptureî/resurrection, would remain on earth afterwards and live out their days in the New Covenant in Godís presence here, on this planet! A proper reading of 1 Thessalonians 4:17 would read: 17 then we who are alive, who are left, shall be caught up together with Him in the clouds (His presence, shikinah glory cloud of God) to meet the Lord where we breath (on this planet, this atmosphere); and so we shall always be with the Lord! Amen!! In Summary: 1. The deliverance of Daniel 12:2 is not the rapture, because the rapture would be the very last event of all that was to occur. It even followed the resurrection of Daniel, which was not to take place until the ìend of the days.î Christ Himself even said it would be the last event, the gathering from the 4 winds in Matthew 24:31. 2. The deliverance Daniel spoke of was the fleeing to the hills Christ spoke of. Just as Noah, by faith, had to enter the ark so that Godís wrath would not destroy them also, so the 1st century Christians had to flee to the hills at the appearance of the signs in Matthew and Luke to be spared from the wrath of God through the Roman armies. 3. The rapture was the last event in the history of the ìend of the age.î It immediately followed the resurrection of Daniel that occurred after the ìend of the days.î It was a spiritual event where those who were ìalive and remainî were caught up in the presence of God, here on this planet. And so Godís presence remained. And will always dwell with man!! No hope of the rapture, the second coming, the futurists say. We destroy the faith, the hope they have? One does not hope for what he has, and we need not faith, if hope is fulfilled. What we have is the Tree of Life! We have a new life, dwelling with God, the moment we are saved. It is not faith, it is knowledge, that God has accomplished everything he said He would. Our belief in the death and resurrection and return of His Son has NOW saved us from ever dying. No more fear of Hades. No more fear of judgment. We have His Son, and we have life!! | ||
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THE BEAST AND THE FALSE PROPHET (Revelation 13) The Book of Revelation is a covenant document. It is a prophecy, like the prophecies of the Old Testament. This means that it is not concerned with making "predictions" of astonishing events as such. As prophecy, its focus is redemptive and ethical. Its concern is with the covenant. There is not a chance that the Biblical authors would have thought it important to prophesy about Cobra helicopters (which would be rendered obsolete by "Blue Thunder"), or personal computers, or chewing gum, or space shuttles. Nor would they have been interested in foretelling the future of the United States of America, the Soviet Union, or the Grand Duchy of Luxemburg. The point is not that these things are unimportant (in varying degrees), or that "spiritual" Christians should not be concerned about all areas of life; we should. But the point is that the Bible is God's revelation about His covenant with His people. It was not written to satisfy our curiosities about the Common Market or the prime rate of interest. It was written to show what God has done to save His people and glorify Himself through them. Therefore, even when God speaks of the Roman Empire in the Book of Revelation, His purpose is not to tell us exciting bits of news about life at Nero's court. He speaks of Rome only in relation to the covenant and the history of redemption. The Roman Empire is not seen in terms of itself, but solely in terms of 1) the Land (Israel), and 2) the Church. The Beast from the Sea The Roman Empire is symbolized in Revelation as a ravenous, ferocious animal, untamed and under the Curse. John says its appearance was like a leopard, a bear, and a lion (Rev. 13:2)óthe very animals used to describe the first three of the four great world empires in Daniel 7:1-6 (Babylon, Medo-Persia, and Greece; cf. Daniel's description of the same empires under a different symbol, in Dan. 2:31-45). The fourth empire, Rome, partakes of the evil, beast-like characteristics of the other empires, but it is much worse: "Behold, a fourth Beast, dreadful and terrifying and extremely strong; and it had large iron teeth. It devoured and crushed, and trampled down the remainder with its feet; and it was different from all the beasts that were before it, and it had ten horns" (Dan. 7:7). The Beast of Revelation is clearly the Roman Empire. This Beast, however, is not just an institution, but a person; specifically, as we shall see, the Emperor Nero. How could this symbol have referred to both the Empire and the Emperor? Because, in a sense (particularly the way the Bible looks at things), the two could be considered as one. Rome was identified with its leader; the Empire was embodied in Nero. Thus the Bible can shift back and forth between them, or consider them both together, under the same designation. And both Nero and the Empire were sunk in degrading, degenerate, bestial activities. Nero, who murdered numerous members of his own family (including his pregnant wife, whom he kicked to death); who was a homosexual, the final stage in degeneracy (Rom. 1:24-32); whose favorite aphrodisiac consisted of watching people suffer the most horrifying and disgusting tortures; who dressed up as a wild beast in order to attack and rape male and female prisoners; who used the bodies of Christians burning at the stake as the original "Roman candles" to light up his filthy garden parties; who launched the first imperial persecution of Christians at the instigation of the Jews, in order to destroy the Church; this animalistic pervert was the ruler of the most powerful empire on earth. And he set the tone for his subjects. Rome was the moral sewer of the world. Let's consider what the Book of Revelation tells us about Nero/Rome, the Beast. First, John saw him "coming up out of the sea" (Rev. 13:1). In a visual, dramatic sense, of course, the mighty Roman Empire did seem to arise out of the sea, from the Italian peninsula across the ocean. More than this, however, there is the Biblical symbolism of the sea. At the original creation, the earth was a fluid, formless, uninhabitable mass of darkness, which the light of the Spirit "overcame" (Gen. 1:2; John 1:5). Obviously, there was no real conflict between God and His creation; in the beginning, everything was "very good." The sea is most fundamentally an image of life. But after the Fall, the picture of the raging deep is used and developed in Scripture as a symbol of the world in chaos through the rebellion of men and nations against God: "The wicked are like the tossing sea; for it cannot be quiet, and its waters toss up refuse and mud" (Isa. 57:20; cf. 17:12). Thus John is told later that "the waters which you sawÖare peoples and multitudes and nations and tongues" (Rev. 17:15). Out of this chaotic, rebellious mass of humanity emerged Rome, an entire empire founded on the premise of opposition to God. Second, John saw that the Beast had "ten horns and seven heads" (Rev. 13:1), in the image of the Dragon (12:3), who gives the Beast "his power and his throne and great authority" (13:2). The ten horns (powers) of the Beast are explained in Revelation 17:12 in terms of the governors of the ten imperial provinces, while the seven heads are explained as the line of the Caesars (17:9-11): Nero is one of the "heads" (we will return to this in the following chapter). Third, "on his heads were blasphemous names" (13:1). As we have already seen, the Caesars were gods. Each emperor was called Augustus or Sebastos, meaning One to be worshiped; they also took on the name divus (god) and even Deus and Theos (God). Many temples were erected to them throughout the Empire, especially, as we have seen, in Asia Minor. The Roman Caesars received honor belonging only to the one true God; Nero commanded absolute obedience, and even had an image of himself built, 120 feet high. For this reason Paul called Caesar "the man of sin"; he was, Paul said, "the son of destruction, who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God" (2nd Thess. 2:3-4). John emphasizes this aspect of the Beast: "And there was given to him a mouth speaking arrogant words and blasphemiesÖ. And he opened his mouth in blasphemies against God, to blaspheme His Name and His tabernacle, those who tabernacle in heaven" (13:5-6). The Christians were persecuted precisely because they refused to join in this idolatrous Emperor-cult. Fourth, John saw "one of his heads as if it had been slain, and his fatal wound was healed" (13:3). Some have pointed out that, after Nero was killed, the rumor began to spread that he would rise again and recapture the throne; in some way, they suppose, John must be referring to that myth. This, it seems to me, is a very unsatisfactory method of dealing with Scripture. John mentions the Beast's "death-wound" three times in this passage (see v. 12, 14); clearly, this is much more than a casual symbol, and we should attempt a Biblical explanation for it. The Beast, as we saw, resembles the Dragon. The fact that he receives a head wound should make us think of the scene in the Garden of Eden, when God promised that Christ would come and crush the Dragon's head (Gen. 3:15). Daniel had prophesied that in the days of the Roman rulers, Christ's Kingdom would crush the Satanic empires and replace them, filling the earth. Accordingly, apostolic testimony proclaimed that Christ's Kingdom had come, that the devil had been defeated, disarmed, and bound, and that all nations would begin to flow toward the mountain of the Lord's House. Within the first generation, the gospel spread rapidly around the world, to all the nations; churches sprang up everywhere, and members of Caesar's own household came into the faith (Phil. 4:22). In fact, Tiberius Caesar even formally requested that the Roman Senate officially acknowledge Christ's divinity. For a time, therefore, it looked as if a coup were taking place: Christianity was in the ascendant, and soon would gain control. Satan's head had been crushed, and with it the Roman Empire had been wounded to death with the sword (Rev. 13:14) of the gospel. But then the tables were reversed. Although the gospel had spread everywhere, so had heresy and apostasy; and under persecution by the Jews and the Roman State, great masses of Christians began falling away. The New Testament gives the definite impression that most of the churches fell apart and abandoned the faith; under Nero's persecution, the Church seemed to have been stamped out entirely. The Beast had received the head-wound, the wound unto deathóyet it still lived. The reality, of course, was that Christ had defeated the Dragon and the Beast; but the implications of His victory still had to be worked out; the saints had yet to overcome, and take possession (Dan. 7:21-22; Rev. 12:11). Fifth, "the whole Land wondered after the Beast; and they worshiped the Dragon, because he gave his authority to the beast; and they worshiped the Beast, saying, 'Who is like the Beast, and who is able to make war against him?'" (13:3-4). John is not speaking of the world following the beast; the word he uses here should be translated Land, meaning Israel. We know this because the context identifies his worshipers as those who dwell on the Land (Rev. 13:8, 12, 14)óa technical phrase used several times in Revelation to denote apostate Israel. In the Greek Old Testament (the version used by the early Church), it is a common prophetic expression for rebellious, idolatrous Israel about to be destroyed and driven from the land (Jer. 1:14; 10:18; Ezek. 7:7; 36:17; Hos. 4:1, 3; Joel 1:2, 14; 2:1; Zeph. 1:8), based on its original usage in the historical books of the Bible for rebellious, idolatrous pagans about to be destroyed and driven from the Land (Num. 32:17; 33:52, 55; Josh. 7:9; 9:24; Jud. 1:32; 2 Sam. 5:6; 1st Chron. 11:4; 22:18; Neh. 9:24). Israel had become a nation of pagans, and was about to be destroyed, exiled, and supplanted by a new nation. It is true, of course, that Nero was loved all over the Empire as the benevolent provider of welfare and entertainment. But it is Israel in particular which is condemned for Emperor-worship. Faced with a choice between Christ and Caesar, they had proclaimed: We have no king but Caesar! (John 19:15). Their reaction to Caesar's apparently victorious war against the Church (Rev. 11:7) was awe and worship. Israel sided with Caesar and the Empire against Christ and the Church. Ultimately, therefore, they were worshiping the Dragon, and for this reason Jesus Himself called their worship assemblies synagogues of Satan (Rev. 2:9; 3:9). Sixth, the Beast was given "authority to act for forty-two months" (13:5), "to make war with the saints and to overcome them" (13:7). The period of 42 months (three-and-one-half yearsóa broken seven) is a symbolic figure in prophetic language, signifying a time of sadness, when the enemies of God are in power, or when judgment is being poured out (taken from the period of drought between Elijah's first appearance and the defeat of Baal on Mount Carmel). Its prophetic usage is not primarily literal, although it is interesting that Nero's persecution of the Church did in fact last a full 42 months, from the middle of November 64 to the beginning of June 68. Seventh, John provided his readers with a positive identification of the Beast: "Here is wisdom. Let him who has understanding calculate the number of the Beast, for the number is that of a man; and his number is 666" (13:18). There are several significant aspects of this strange number; we will examine only two of them here. The first point is that the Old Testament has already told us about 666. It is found in the books of the Kings and the Chronicles, surely some of the most neglected books of the Bible. Interestingly, however, John takes many of his symbolic numbers from them (for one example, compare 1st Chron. 24:1-19 with Rev. 4:4). These historical writings tell us that Solomon (a Biblical type of both Christ and the Beast) received 666 talents of gold in one year, at the height of his power and glory (1st Kings 10:14; 2nd Chron. 9:13). That number marks both the high point of his reign and the beginning of his downfall; from then on, everything goes downhill into apostasy. One by one, Solomon breaks the three laws of godly kingship recorded in Deuteronomy 17:16-17: against multiplying gold (1st Kings 10:14-25), against multiplying horses (1st Kings 10: 26-29), and against multiplying wives (1st Kings 11:1-8). For the Hebrews, 666 was a fearful sign of apostasy, the mark of both a king and a State in the Dragon's image. The second point to consider about the number 666 is this. In both Greek and Hebrew, each letter of the alphabet is also a numeral (see the table of numerals at the end of this chapter). Thus, the "number" of anyone's name could be computed by simply adding up the numerical value of its letters. Clearly, John expected that his contemporary readers were capable of using this method to discover the Beast's nameóthus indicating, again, the contemporary message of Revelation; he did not expect them to figure out the name of some 20th-century official in a foreign government. At the same time, however, he tells them that it will not be as easy as they might think: it will require someone "who has understanding." For John did not give a number that could be worked out in Greek, which is what a Roman official scanning Revelation for subversive content would expect. The unexpected element in the computation was that it had to be worked out in Hebrew, a language which at least some members of the churches would know. His readers would have guessed by now that he was speaking of Nero, and those who understood Hebrew probably grasped it instantly. The numerical values of the Hebrew letters in Neron Kesar (Nero Caesar) are: It is significant that all early Christian writers, even those who did not understand Hebrew and were therefore confused by the number 666, connected the Roman Empire, and especially Nero, with the Beast. There should be no reasonable doubt about this. John was writing to first-century Christians, warning them of things that were "shortly" to take place. They were engaged in the most crucial battle of history, against the Dragon and the evil Empire which he possessed. The purpose of the Revelation was to comfort the Church with the assurance that God was in control, so that even the awesome might of the Dragon and the Beast would not stand before the armies of Jesus Christ. The number of Man is six (Gen. 1:27, 31); Christ was wounded in His heel on the sixth day (Friday)óyet that is the day He crushed the Dragon's head. At his most powerful, John says, Nero is just a six, or a series of sixes; never a seven. His plans of world dominion will never be fulfilled, and the Church will overcome. The Beast from the Land Just as the Beast from the sea was in the image of the Dragon, so we see another creature in Revelation 13 who is in the image of the Beast. John saw this one "coming up out of the Land" (13:11), arising from within Israel itself. In Revelation 19:20, we are told the identity of this Land Beast: he is "the False Prophet." As such, he represents what Jesus had foretold would take place in Israel's last days: "Many will come in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and will mislead manyÖ. Many false prophets will arise, and will mislead many" (Matt. 24:5, 11). The rise of the false prophets paralleled that of the antichrists; but whereas the antichrists had apostatized into Judaism from within the Church, the false prophets were Jewish religious leaders who sought to seduce Christians from the outside. It is important to remember that Judaism is not Old Testament religion, but rather a rejection of the Biblical faith altogether in favor of the Pharisaical, Talmudic heresy. Like Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, the Unification Church, and other cults, it claims to be based on the Bible; but its actual authority comes from the traditions of men. Jesus was quite clear: Judaism denies Christ because it denies Moses. Orthodox Christianity alone is the true continuation and fulfillment of Old Testament religion (see Matt. 5:17-20; 15:1-9; Mark 7:1-13; Luke 16:29-31; John 5:45-47; 8:42-47). The Jewish false prophets had the appearance of a lamb (Rev. 13:11), as Jesus had warned (Matt. 7:15); but they "spoke as a Dragon" (Rev. 13:11). How does the Dragon speak? He uses deceptive, subtle, seductive speech to draw God's people away from the faith and into a trap (Gen. 3:1-6, 13; 2nd Cor. 11:3; Rev. 12:9); furthermore, he is a liar, a slanderer, and a blasphemer (John 8:44; Rev. 12:10). The Book of Acts records numerous examples of Draconian false witness by the Jews against Christians, a major problem for the early Church (Acts 6:9-15; 13:10; 14:2-5; 17:5-8; 18:6, 12-13; 19:9; 21:27-36; 24:1-9; 25:2-3, 7). The Jewish leaders, symbolized by this Beast from the Land, joined forces with the Beast of Rome in an attempt to destroy the Church (Acts 4:24-28; 12:1-3; 13:8; 14:5; 17:5-8; 18:12-13; 21:11; 24:1-9; 25:2-3, 9, 24). They led Israel in worship of the Emperor (Rev. 13:12); and, in the service of apostasy, the false prophets even performed miracles (Rev. 13:13-15). Jesus had warned that "false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, the very elect" (Matt. 24:24). Again, Acts records instances of miracle-working Jewish false prophets, including the fact that, as Jesus had foretold (Matt. 7:22-23), some of them even used His name in their incantations (Acts 13:6-11; 19:13-16). The Jewish leaders enforced submission to the Emperor. Indeed, their charge against Christ Himself was that He was a rival to the all-embracing authority of Caesar (John 19:12-15). Similarly, they organized economic boycotts against those who refused to submit to Caesar as Lord, going so far as to put them to death (Rev. 13:15-17). The Book of Acts is studded with incidents of organized Jewish persecution of the Church (Acts 4:1-3, 15-18; 5:17-18, 27-33, 40; 7:51-60; 9:23, 29; 13:45-50; 14:2-5; 17:5-8, 13; 18:17; 20:3; 22:22-23; 23:12, 20-21; 24:27; 26:21; 28:17-29; cf. 1st Thess. 2:14-16). The New Testament gives abundant testimony of this fact. The Jewish hierarchy was involved in a massive, organized attempt to destroy the Church by both deceit and persecution. In pursuit of this diabolical goal, they united in a conspiracy with the Roman government against Christianity. Some of them were able to perform miracles in the service of Satan. And this is exactly what is told us of the Beast from the Land. The False Prophet of Revelation was none other than the leadership of apostate Israel, who rejected Christ and worshiped the Beast. There is an interesting reversal of imagery in the text. The Book of Job has prepared us for John's prophecy, for it too tells us of a Land Beast (Behemoth, Job 40:15-24) and a Sea Beast (Leviathan, Job 41:1-34). But John's visions expand on Job's descriptions of these dinosaurs, and the order of their appearance is reversed. First we see Satan as the Dragon, the true Leviathan (Rev. 12); then comes the Sea Beast, who is in the Dragon's image (Rev. 13:1); finally, trailing behind and serving them, comes the Land Beast, in the image of the Sea Beast. By thus showing the Beasts appearing in reverse order, John underscores his point: Israel, which was to have been a kingdom of priests to the nations of the world, has surrendered its position of priority to Leviathan. Instead of placing a godly imprint upon every culture and society, Israel has been remade into the image of the pagan, antichristian State. Abraham's children have become the seed of the Dragon (John 8:37-44). During three years of ministry in Ephesus, the Apostle Paul continually suffered persecution because of "the plots of the Jews" (Acts 20:19); in describing his conflicts with them, he called them "wild beasts" (1st Cor. 15:32). The Jewish Beast was the early Church's most deceptive and dangerous enemy, and Paul strenuously warned the Church about these Judaistic seducers: For there are many rebellious men, empty talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision, who must be silenced because they are upsetting whole families, teaching things they should not teach, for the sake of sordid gain. One of themselves, a prophet of their own, said, "Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttons." This testimony is true. For this cause reprove them severely that they may be sound in the faith, not paying attention to Jewish myths and commandments of men who turn away from the truth. To the pure, all things are pure; but to those who are defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure, but both their mind and their conscience are defiled. They profess to know God, but by their deeds they deny Him, being detestable and disobedient, and worthless for any good deed (Tit. 1:10-16). | ||
| Hiddenmanna Registered user Username: Hiddenmanna Post Number: 18 Registered: 12-2004 |
The problems with the traditional view of the mark of the beast. The first thing one must understand about Revelation is that it is a book composed almost entirely of symbols that a first century Jew would have found immediately recognizable. These symbols were used before in such books as Deuteronomy, Isaiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, and Zechariah. When a ìmarkî is spoken of, it should bring to mind a previous reference to a mark, found in another place in the Old Testament. The ìmarkî received upon the right hand or the forehead, is a Jewish typological picture (as is virtually all of Revelation), not to a ìphysicalî mark on a persons body, but to the fact that in Jewish thought form (which is where John was coming from). But how did one, receive ìthe markî and what did it mean in Jewish thought? It means that those who ìtook the markî willingly, on their ìright handî (the Jewish picture of action and power), did whatever they did willingly for Rome, and they acted in accordance with that ungodly religious system (Pantheism). The ìmarkî on the foreheads, was referring to the fact that Rome and their ideologies/ religions etc, were controlling their ìminds and thoughtsî of those who willingly followed this mind set, like we see in (Luke 19:14) But his citizens hated him, and sent a delegation after him, saying, ìWe will not have this man to reign over us.í And in (John 19:15) But they cried out, ìAway with Him, away with Him! Crucify Him!î Pilate said to them, ìShall I crucify your King?î The chief priests answered, ìWe have no king but Caesar!î And in (John 11:47-48) Then the chief priests and the Pharisees gathered a council and said, ìWhat shall we do? For this Man works many signs. If we let Him alone like this, everyone will believe in Him, and the Romans will come and take away both our place and nation.î The original audience factor cannot be overlooked. Every emperor represented the beast while in power, and, therefore, demanded allegiance (taking the mark, symbolically). Apostate Judaism enforced allegiance to Rome as John later stated: ìWe have no king but Caesar!î Those who did not bow to this evil alliance are those who, rather, received the ëmarkí of the Spirit of Life. It is a perfect picture of this action as seen above. in John. This is the biblical meaning of the ìmark of the beast.î Those who ìtook the markî in the foreheads, were referring to the fact that Rome and their ideologies/religions etc, were controlling the minds and thoughts of those who willingly followed this mind set. All the Jews understood this typological picture. Since John was a Jew he used numerous Jewish allusions out of the Old Testament in his book of Revelation. John writes in Greek, he thinks in Hebrew, and the thought has naturally affected the vehicle of express.î The same language of Johnís Revelation when a ìmarkî is spoken of, should bring to mind a previous reference to a ìmarkî found in Ezekiel 9:3-6. In that context, Jerusalem was also about to be besieged and destroyed (by the Babylonians). The Lord commanded an angel to place ìa mark on the foreheadsî of those that lamented the wickedness of the city. This angel is described as having ìa writerís inkhorn at his sideî (9:3), with which he was to mark the righteous. It is clear from the context that this was not to be taken literally, as if an angel needed to carry a pen around with him and an inkhorn in which to dip it. This was a figurative (symbolic) way of showing that there was a specific class of people within the doomed city that were being set apart for preservation (9:6). In Revelation, a similar ìmarkî is placed on those whom God wishes to preserve (7:3, 14:1). A ìmarkî is also received by those loyal to the beast, one which sets them apart for destruction (14:9-11). The mark is an emblem of ownership (John 19:14-15.) When interpreting any book of the Bible, it is important to ascertain the audience to which it was originally directed. First, in Revelation we have clear evidence that John is writing to particular, historic, individual churches that existed in his day. Revelation 1:4 provides a common salutation: ìJohn to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace [be] unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come.î In verse 11 he specifically names the seven churches to whom he speaks: ìWhat you see, write in a book and send it to the seven churches which are in Asia: to Ephesus, to Smyrna, to Pergamos, to Thyatira, to Sardis, to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea.î We know these names to be those of historical cities containing literal churches existing in the first century. Second, we learn that John wrote to those churches in order to be understood. The first sentence of Johnís prophecy has become the title of the entire work. And from that title we are clearly told that his work was to be a ìrevelation.î The Greek word for ìrevelationî is apokalupsis, which means an ìopening up, uncovering.î John intended his book to be an opening up of divine truth for his original audience. He wrote to reveal, not to conceal truth. And we must allow Scripture to interpret itself whenever possible. Daniel describes the four beasts (Babylon, Greece, Medo-Persia, and Rome) as the beasts of the sea: And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another. (Daniel 7:3) It was during the time of this fourth empire that Godís eternal kingdom was to be established (Daniel 7:18,22,27). By the way the mark of the beast was the mark of a certain individual (Rev. 13:18) not just the Roman Empire in general. The mark of the beast was to happen right before AD 70 The first ìclueî for us to examine is Revelation 13:18, which says: ìHere is wisdom. Let him who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for the number is that of a man; and his number is six hundred and sixty-six.î We must remember that John is writing from the isle of Patmos, where he has been imprisoned. John wrote his message in ìcodeî lest his captors understand his reference to the emperor. Instead of openly stating who the ìBeastî was, he left the original audience a clue that every Hebrew could easily discern. In ancient times, alphabets served a two-fold purpose. Letters functioned not only as phonetic symbols, but as numerals, as well. The Arabic numeral system, which we use today, was a later development. Throughout the ancient world, we find the practice of using the numerical value of a name, as a sort of cryptogram. The Hebrew spelling of the name Nero Caesar was NRWN QSR (represented here by English letters). The sum of these numbers, which match each Hebrew letter, add up precisely to 666 as follows: N = 50 R = 200 W = 6 N =50 Q = 100 S = 60 R = 200 Is this a coincidence? Or was John sending a message to his readers, which they could have calculated with relative ease? Another interesting factor to consider is what is called the ìtextual variant.î If you consult a Bible with marginal references you will find something quite intriguing. Regarding Revelation 13:18, your reference may say something to the effect: ìSome manuscripts read 616.î The fact is that the number 666 in some ancient manuscripts is actually changed to 616, but why? Was it changed by accident or intentionally? The numbers 666 and 616 are not even similar in appearanceówhether spelled out in words or written in numerals. As textual scholars agree, it must be intentional by an early copyist. John, a Jew, used a Hebrew spelling of Neroís name in order to arrive at the number 666 with fits (John 19:15) The second major ìclueî John gives us is found in Revelation 17:9-10, which declares: ìHere is the mind which has wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits, and they are seven kings; five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; and when he comes, he must remain a little while.î Most New Testament scholars recognize that the seven mountains represent the famous Seven Hills of Rome. The Seven Hills of Rome are mentioned time and again by both ancient pagan and Christian writers. The ten horns, with the crowns, are in reference to the ten empirical provinces of Rome. In Revelation 13:1 John notes that he ìsaw a beast coming up out of the sea, having ten horns and seven headsî. Revelation 17:10 specifically notes that the seven heads represent ìseven kings.î Thus, the Beast is generically portrayed as a kingdom. Who was this ìsixth kingî? Flavius Josephus, the Jewish historian of that period, clearly points out that Julius Caesar was the first emperor of Rome, and that he was followed in succession by Augustus, Tiberius, Caligula, and Claudius. The sixth was none other than Nero (see Antiquities, books 18 & 19). This is also confirmed by Roman historians, Suetonius (Lives of the Twelve Caesars) and Dio Cassius (Roman History V). In addition, John states, ìthe other has not yet comeî (the seventh), ìand when he comes, he must remain a little while.î Following Nero came Galba, who reigned less than seven months. Now here are my new questions. (1) Were in the book of Revelation does John say his mark of the beast was to take place pass the individual who was the sixth or seventh Caesar in his day? (2) Where is the scripture were John says his mark was not a Jewish typological picture of the Jews in his day previous reference to a ìmarkî found in Ezekiel 9:3-6. (3) John tell us the seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits, and they are seven kings; five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; and when he comes, he must remain a little while.î Who are these seven kings buy these names today? Julius Caesar was the first emperor of Rome and that he was followed in succession by Augustus, Tiberius, Caligula, and Claudius. The sixth was none other than Nero (see Antiquities, books 18 & 19). This is also confirmed by Roman historians, Suetonius (Lives of the Twelve Caesars) and Dio Cassius (Roman History V). In addition, John states, ìthe other has not yet comeî (the seventh), ìand when he comes, he must remain a little while.î Following Nero came Galba, who reigned less than seven months. Just who in our day are these seven kings buy these names? If Johnís source are wrong prove it donít just say it. | ||
| Hiddenmanna Registered user Username: Hiddenmanna Post Number: 19 Registered: 12-2004 |
The Sun being Darkened and the Stars Falling The problem with understanding the symbolical term of the ìheaven and earthî is that most are not accustomed to dealing with such symbolical language like the heaven and earth, the sun being darkened and the stars falling, from the sky etc, without tacking these things literally. To the Jews, this was not new language. When the rulers of the nation that God destroyed passed away, it was said that the sun was darkened and the stars fell from the skyí, etc. To help understand how the Jews communicated in terms of symbolical language open your Bible and turn to (Genesis 37:9). After Joseph had a dream, from God, he told his Father and brothers about it and said, ìBehold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me.î His father understood the meaning of that dream and asked,î What is the dream that thou haste dreamed? Shall I and thy mother and thy brethren indeed come to bow down ourselves to thee to the earthî (vs.10)? As you can see, Joseph dream was related to his father, mother, and brothers not the universe. This passage might be taken to mean that the signs in the physical sun, moon and stars, would fall from the heavens. But the teaching of Joseph which we have just been considering absolutely forbids that interpretation. Thus we find good reason for concluding that Joseph is here speaking figuratively of unusual happenings in the political firmament, that is to say, in the sphere of governments, or what Joseph calls the higher powers. In Isaiah 13:7-10 we have an example of the use of this figure. This kind of language was also used by God in picturing His awful judgment on nations and itís people. Take, for example, the case of the prophesied fall of Babylon to the Medes in 539 BC., This applied to Babylon, as mentioned in verse 1. ìThe fall of Babylon is represented by the stars and constellations of heaven withdrawing their light, and the sun and moon being darkened (xiii. 9,10). It occurs in connection with a description of the day of the Lord. We quote verse 10: For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light; the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine. Taking these words in connection with Josephís dream about the sun, moon and stars (which his father and brethren had no need of one to interpret for them, (Ge 37:9,10), we get the idea that the sun stands for authority on earth in the broadest sense, and the moon for lesser authority, and the stars for prominent persons in the sphere of government. In Isaiah 51:5-6 God predicted the destruction of ìheaven and earth.î Verses 15-16 defines that ìheaven and earthî as the world created when God gave Israel the law at Sinai. In contrast to that world that would be destroyed, Godís new world would stand forever, vs. 6. GOD CREATED ISRAELíS HEAVEN AND EARTH AT SINAI, BUT HE WOULD DESTROY THAT WORLD TO MAKE WAY FOR THE NEW CREATION OF CHRIST! Isaiah predicted this in chapter 65:1-17-19. This is the very same ëheaven and earthí mentioned in. (2 Peter 3:12-13) | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 141 Registered: 7-2004 |
Hiddenmanna, you quoted: "24And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled." So when is the time of the Gentiles fulfilled, and what happens then? I'm still reading through your remaining posts, but wanted to post this question before I forgot. | ||
| Hiddenmanna Registered user Username: Hiddenmanna Post Number: 20 Registered: 12-2004 |
The Times of the Gentiles ìAnd they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.î (Luke 21:24) There has been much misunderstanding in the modern Church concerning ìthe times of the Gentiles.î In this article I will seek to give an interpretation that is consistent with both the immediate context and the greater weight of scripture. Many commentators today equate ìthe times of the Gentilesî with ìthe fullness of the Gentilesî mentioned by the Apostle Paul in Romans 11:25. In fact, most all reference Bibles make this connection in the margins. But mixing these verses together is strange indeed, since ìthe times of the Gentilesî refers to the treading down of Jerusalem by Gentile armies, while ìthe fullness of the Gentilesî refers to the salvation of the Gentiles. The truth is, there is no connection whatsoever between the times of the Gentiles and the fullness of the Gentiles, as they are speaking of two completely different things. It is also commonly taught that the times of the Gentiles refers to the historical period of Gentile control over Jerusalem beginning with the Babylonian captivity in 586 B.C. and ending in 1967, when Israel took East Jerusalem from the Arabs in the Six-Day War. Oddly, those who say that the times of the Gentiles ended in 1967 go on to say that a Gentile dictator from a ìRevived Roman Empireî will soon sit in a ìrebuilt templeî, proclaiming himself to be God. This Gentile dictator and his Gentile army will seek to annihilate the Jews after breaking a false 7-year peace treaty at the midpoint, so the theory goes. But if this projection is true, we must ask ourselves: How was the times of the Gentiles ìfulfilledî in 1967? Today, there are some 450,000 ìGentilesî living in Jerusalem. The present ìintifadaî was touched off when Ariel Sharon made a visit to the Temple Mount a few years ago. Whatís this saying? The popular dispensational interpretations of the times of the Gentiles simply donít add up! Dispensationalists simply impose a preconceived understanding on the term without any exegesis of the context, or parallel support found elsewhere in the Bible. Their appeal to 1967 truly epitomizes what is called ìnewspaper exegesisî. But will we allow the Word of God to speak for itself?? ìVerily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.î (Luke 21:32) The times of the Gentiles has to be kept in itís proper historical context. Jesus said that ìallî, including the times of the Gentiles, would be fulfilled before his contemporary generation had passed. Dispensationalists go outside the box of ìthis generationî in order to teach a futuristic view of Christís coming. To do that they have to redefine both ìthe times of the Gentilesî and ìthis generationî. Needless to say, their ì1948 generationî has proven to be more than just a little embarrassing. ìAnd when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh . . . and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.î (Luke 21:20, 24) The times of the Gentiles referred to the treading down, or desolation, of first century Jerusalem, which Jesus called ìthe days of vengeanceî. In other words, it was Godís mission for the Gentiles to bring judgment upon Jerusalem. This is consistent with past judgments upon Israel, when God brought Gentiles armies into their land to desolate it. The whole controversy centers on the duration of the treading down of Jerusalem. The Greek for ìtroddenî is pat-ehí-o (#3961 in Strongís Concordance), and it means ìto trample down underfootî. The parallel to Lk.21:24 is seen in Revelation 11:2, which says: ìBut the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot (pateho) forty and two months.î Could it be any plainer? The times of the Gentiles, or treading down of Jerusalem, entailed no more than a forty two month period of time, the exact duration of the Jewish-Roman War. This is in perfect harmony with Daniel 12:7, where the defining characteristic of ìthe time of the endî is said to be ìthe scattering of the power of the holy peopleî, which we are told would be accomplished during ìa time, times, and a halfî, or forty two months. Furthermore, when we consider the mountain of evidence for a pre-70 dating of Revelation, in addition to the statements of imminence in the book itself (1:1, 3; 22:6, 7, 10, 12), then the forced conclusion is that the forty two months was fulfilled in the 66-70 A.D. Jewish-Roman War. In the ancient Near East, the ultimate image of triumph over an enemy was the positioning of the enemy ìunder the feetî of the conqueror. This was a literal custom in Biblical times ñ read Joshua 10:24; 2 Kings 7:17, 20, 9:33; Isaiah 14:19 ñ as well as a metaphor for dominion, conquering, possession, judgment, shame, defilement, oppression, and victory ñ read Deuteronomy 11:24; Judges 20:43; 1 Kings 5:3; Joshua 14:9; Psalms 18:38; 47:3; 74:21; 110:1; Lamentations 1:15; 3:34; Isaiah 14:25; 41:2; 63:6; 66:1; Jeremiah 25:30; Daniel 8:7; Joel 3:13; Amos 2:6-7; 4:13; Micah 1:3; 5:5-6; Malachi 4:3; Matthew 7:6; Mark 12:36; Luke 20:43; Acts 2:35; Romans 16:20; I Corinthians 15:25; Ephesians 1:22; Hebrews 1:13; 2:8; 10:13; Revelation 19:15. The Greek word for ìtreadî in Revelation 11:2 is the same word Luke used for ìtroddenî (pat-ehí-o) in Luke 21:24. Jerusalemís first century desolation represented the time when Christ put his enemies ñ read I Thessalonians 2:15-16 ñ under his feet. This was accomplished during a forty two month period which Jesus called ìthe times of the Gentilesî. |
