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Susan_2
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Username: Susan_2

Post Number: 1255
Registered: 11-2002
Posted on Thursday, December 23, 2004 - 9:12 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi, Hrobinsonw. It's so great to hear from you. I hope your wife is feeling well and the little one is growig strong and healthy. I have neer heard of some of the law catagories menioed above. The SDA's do break it down to the 10 Commandments law, the food laws and the ceremoial laws. Those are really the only ones that I can think of right off the top of my head. Depending on the individual SDA you are talking with they may not use the words "food laws" but they may use the term "health laws". Many SDA's catagorize resting on the Sabbath to be a health law. And, Truthseeker, Come on now, why not really read he posts, especiallythe ones by Ric_b. You do nt find animosity on here about going to church n Saturdays. In fact, if you have read my posts you would have noticed numerous times where I've stated if there was still a Seventh Day Baptist church whithin driving disance to whre I live than that is where I'd still be attending. It's only logical to use SDA publications and EGW quotes when referring to what SDA's believe. Also, itt doesn't seem to me that the folks on here are bitter and obsessed with Adventism. In fact, I have read many state on here how thankful they are to have been either raised or in the SDA church of their own conviction because now they are so much more able to praise God in His grace and in forgiveness. We all have other lives that extend way out past our need to help expose the errors of Adventism. Read what is written. Valerie, are you till out there? I sure have been missing hearing from you!
Goldenbear
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Username: Goldenbear

Post Number: 23
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Thursday, December 23, 2004 - 10:16 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

There are times when reading these posts and those in the Gen 2:3 thread reminded me of the story of the 5 blind men who were led up to the elephant and allowed to touch it. When asked to describe it they all had a different description based on what they touched.


I think all Christendom sometimes tends to "rearrange the deck chairs on the Titanic" arguing about things that are all a manner of perspective. (I am not saying that the things of this thread are unimportant, just the general trend of the discussion seems unresolvable because people are starting from a totally different place.) The bible just like most all communication can be read (or perceived) in different ways depending on the reader and how the Holy Spirit influences them and leads them into truth. Their past experiences, hurts, concerns also affect how they perceive things. God meets us where we are and draws us to him from that point.

I read one post that spiritual things are spiritually discerned. I don't think anyone on this forum made decisions about their relationship with the SDA church easily or flippantly. It was with anquish and prayer that emotional ties were broken and friends lost. To say that formers are bitter is a bit of a stretch, perhaps if a person walked in their shoes, they might understand.
Praise God, Jesus came and provided the opportunity to receive salvation as a Free gift.
Ric_b
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Username: Ric_b

Post Number: 136
Registered: 7-2004
Posted on Thursday, December 23, 2004 - 10:49 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Goldenbear,
None can dispute that we can only understand God through His gift of the Spirit. And I can certainly agree that each of our life experiences can impact our understanding of Scripture, to a degree. But truth is not relative. The Gospel in not subject to our whims.

Gal 1
6 I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel; 7 which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! 9 As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!

Paul is adamant that a clear understanding of the Gospel is crucial. Paul doesn't leave room for "let's all get along and accept each others' views of the Gospel." Galations 2 tells us about Paul standing up for his understanding of the Gospel in front of James and the council and later challenging Peter's teaching and practices.
Goldenbear
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Username: Goldenbear

Post Number: 24
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Thursday, December 23, 2004 - 11:27 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I agree wholeheartedly with you Ric. I guess I was feeling a little beat up reading the posts between TS2004 and others and just fealt that everytime a question was answered, TS just changed the argument. Atypical tactic used by politicians today. I truly would never be an effective debater. I just want to get the center of the matter. Jesus! My main thought is the "If I be lifted up, I will draw all men unto Me."
The scriptures must be the anchor to which hold to.
Colleentinker
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Username: Colleentinker

Post Number: 1135
Registered: 12-2003
Posted on Thursday, December 23, 2004 - 12:09 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Truthseeker, I understood that you were done with this conversation. There is no point in your renewing this argument; this forum is for former Adventists who have found Jesus to be their Sabbath rest. It is for people who are questioning or leaving Adventism to find support, to be able to ask questions and to experience fellowship as they grow in the amazing discovery that Jesus alone is all they need.

Your continuing this conversation at this point is beyond the scope of this forum. None of us here will be convinced by your arguments; we have all been steeped in the very arguments you use and now praise God that He has revealed the clarity and finality of the gospel.

There are other forums (including CARM) where you can pursue these discussions. They truly serve no further purpose here. If you honestly were seeking and wanting our sincere answers, you would, of course, be welcome to ask and participate. But this forum is not a place to publish Adventist arguments. We already know them!

Praise God that He knows our hearts and is merciful to us all.

Colleen
Chris
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Username: Chris

Post Number: 504
Registered: 7-2003
Posted on Thursday, December 23, 2004 - 1:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Truthseeker, I have to echo a bit of what Colleen said and also make some corrections to earlier assertions youíve made.

If you really have any interest in knowing why we left, then please listen. I will try and put it in a nutshell for you.

First, based on the tone and content of your posts, you seem to think that we may have left because we donít fully understand SDA theology or the arguments for SDA distinctive. You should understand that many of us here are extremely well versed in SDA doctrine and could be very proficient at arguing for SDA theology if we believed it or if we wished to play Devilís advocate. Between my wife and I, we have 32 years worth of formal SDA doctrinal training in SDA schools (grade school through college and graduate school), and yet we both left together despite understanding SDA doctrine very very well. Why? Because as our relationship with Jesus deepened over time we became more and more drawn into the scripture. I can tell you that as I prayed and studied, then studied and prayed some more, led by the Holy Spirit I came to the inescapable conviction that Adventism was born in error, developed in error, and continues in significant doctrinal error that is unsupportable using contextual analysis of scripture. Based on the Bible and the Bible alone, I firmly believe Adventism to be a false religion promoting false doctrines by twisting scripture to fit the teachings of a false prophet. I absolutely had to leave as a matter of conscience. Not because I didnít understand Adventism, but because I thoroughly understood it.

You implied (on 12/16) that we former SDAs left Adventism "for personal reasons" rather than as a result of a careful and conscientious searching of scripture. This erroneous assumption is a grave error on your part. I can tell you that I found Adventism to be a very comfortable place to socially. My wife and I were multi-generation Adventist and were in SDA schools our entire lives. There wasnít anywhere in the country where we could go and not know someone or have some link to someone. All our friends were SDA, all our family is SDA, all our business associates and contacts were SDA (our home builder, our insurance guy, our travel agent, and the list goes on). We live in an SDA mecca and practically everyone we have ever known or ever done business with is an SDA. We have never had any great personal problems with any of these individuals nor with the denomination. We lived a comfortable life as part of the SDA in-crowd in this SDA college town. Leaving was the hardest thing we ever had to do, but we had to. We had to follow Jesus no matter where He led. We had to follow the convictions the Holy Spirit placed in our spirits. We had to follow the Word of Scripture alone. We had to forsake our comfort and follow Jesus.

Since that time we have indeed seen the ugly side of Adventism as we have been shunned by family and abandoned by friends. But no matter how hard this has been I wouldnít change my decision for the world. I made my decision for Jesus and for His Word and by the power of the Spirit I will continue to follow him where He leads.

You can continue to post unrelated ìproof-textsî strung together with utter disregard for biblical context if you like, but understand that most of us know each of these ìproof-textî pathways backwards and forwards (and even have them marked out in some old Bibles). I have endeavored to learn proper contextual scriptural analysis since leaving and I have realized how utterly bereft of integrity Adventist methodology is. William Miller used this same sort of proof texting and it led to what SDAs call ìthe great disappointmentî. Unfortunately, SDAs never really gave up Millerite methodology.

Adventism is a false religion in every senese: founded in error, developed in error, and continuing in error. This is why I left.

Chris
Helovesme2
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Username: Helovesme2

Post Number: 82
Registered: 8-2004
Posted on Thursday, December 23, 2004 - 2:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well said Chris!

helovesme2
Belvalew
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Username: Belvalew

Post Number: 86
Registered: 7-2004
Posted on Thursday, December 23, 2004 - 3:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dear Chris,
Thank you for mentioning having the proof-texts marked out in some bible somewhere. I had to buy a new bible when I started studying for myself without the SDA framework. Every time I started to study in my old bible I ran into those tests marked, and other texts annotated beside them--all working at proving an SDA doctrine. Once I started reading my unmarked bible, but asking for the guidance of the Holy Spirit, grace and gospel blossomed in my life. I praise the Almighty Father for sending his Son, Jesus Christ, to be the sacrifice for my sin. I praise Jesus, the Christ, for paving and opening the way for the Holy Spirit to fill up my life and to lead me to the truth of his awesome grace. Like you, I've had to leave behind friends and family and cling to the grace of my savior. He has filled in the blanks in my life--given me new friends, and some of those friends have become closer than the family I formerly had. I do so look forward to meeting with the entire Family of God when he takes me home. Thank you, God, for the grace of the gospel!
Ric_b
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Username: Ric_b

Post Number: 137
Registered: 7-2004
Posted on Thursday, December 23, 2004 - 4:35 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Chris,
You expressed what so many of us are feeling with such clarity. Thank you.

Yes we have those marked up Bibles too. Plus I have all of my theology class notes (and the many class notes I bought for classes I never took). And I can still argue for the SDA position with less effort than I can argue against it--thanks to years of making those areguments (plus all the books, notes and files I have stored). I'm a relative newbie at trying to put into words what I have come to understand about grace and about the New Covenant.

And you are so correct about the common misconceptions SDA's have about why we left.

Most think it must have been over somebody who made us upset. Quite the contrary, breaking the news to the close friends we had at church was one of the hardest things I have ever done. In spite of the doctrinal disagreements I had with the SDA church, it was very hard to leave the local church that we loved deeply.

Or, they think that we must not really understand the doctrines or the reasons for these doctrines. But I know full well what I disagree with and why.

Perhaps the hardest ones though are the friends who agree with nearly every doctrinal concern that you raise but don't understand why that means you would need to leave. "You don't hear much about that at XYZ SDA Church," is probably the hardest comment to respond to, since it isn't about how often you hear the errors at a particular church, but rather the implicit agreement with the doctrines one makes when they stay.
Vchowdhury1
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Username: Vchowdhury1

Post Number: 98
Registered: 7-2004
Posted on Thursday, December 23, 2004 - 5:38 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hello Susan, yes, I'm still out here:-) I've been enjoying reading the posts instead of writing them lately. I sent an e-mail to you on your private e-mail the other day. Did you get it? Also, in regards to Truthseeker2004's posts, sda's "crack me up" when they say that if the 10 commandments were nailed to the cross then we would be free to steal, kill, committ adultry, etc. But wait a minute, If we have the Holy Spirit, and if Christ was living in our hearts we would have NO DESIRE to do those things anyway! Its just like if we love a dear friend, or a spouse, would we need a written set of rules to show us how we should love them? Oh, I think not. I love Jesus Christ more than anything in the world. I don't need a set of rules to show me how I should treat him. If the Holy Spirit is dwelling in me, and if I have Christ in my heart, I have NO DESIRE to committ adultry, or lie, or swindle, or cheat, or disrespect my parents, etc. The Holy Spirit is my guide as far as thats concerned. So excuse my bluntness, but if you call yourself a Christian, but need a set of rules to tell you how to live? To me it makes no sense. Never did. Never will.

--Valerie
Colleentinker
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Username: Colleentinker

Post Number: 1136
Registered: 12-2003
Posted on Thursday, December 23, 2004 - 5:38 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Chris, thanks from me, too, for your clear explanation of why we left. Just this week I got a letter for Proclamation taking exception to "our" stance. It was articulate and strong--and completely missed the point. It stated that the writer thought perhaps we left more for sociological reasons than theological, and decried our "anger" and "Adventist bashing".

Further, the writer went on to say that they thought that the next generation or two would rise up to decry the "abuse" they received from the Life Assurance Ministries way of believing and complain about the incomplete truth and doctrines they had learned from us.

In addition, this person stated they believe the Bible is not the only revelation of God--just, perhaps, the most complete. We need, therefore, to look to other sources (ie EGW) as well in order to give us a more full, complete view of God. Ellen, they believed, was inspired as was CS Lewis, Mahler, and Monet.

And so on.

The letter would not have been overly remarkable--just one more in a long line of people who do not understand that we have found Jesus, not a new religion--but then I saw the signature. It was from a person I have known most of my life and who used to be a very close friend.

The stab I felt was nearly physical.

None of us who find Jesus leave because we smugly feel we've developed a new theology. We leave because we cannot serve only Him and still leave our names on a church roster which means we subscribe to unbiblical doctrines and a false prophet--in any sense.

The losses we experience are profound and often permanent. We don't do this for "fun" or a sense of power.

We are here because we must act with integrity and honor our Savior.

Colleen
Dennis
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Username: Dennis

Post Number: 259
Registered: 4-2000
Posted on Thursday, December 23, 2004 - 7:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Chris and Colleen,

Your powerful testimonies speak for many of us as former Adventists. Thank you for sharing the joy of being a Christ-follower. If anyone teaches anything different from what Paul preached they are to be "accursed" (Galatians 1:8). I continue to praise God for calling me out of deception and legalism.

In awe of His grace,

Dennis J. Fischer
Flyinglady
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Username: Flyinglady

Post Number: 852
Registered: 3-2004
Posted on Thursday, December 23, 2004 - 8:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Chris and Colleen,
Thank you for our wonderful testimonies. I did not leave the SDA church in anger. I left because I could no longer believe a lie/false prophet. After discovering that, I studied the Bible for myself and am still studying it and learning what it really teaches. Thanks to all of you.
God is truly awesome.
Diana
Dd
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Username: Dd

Post Number: 278
Registered: 7-2004
Posted on Thursday, December 23, 2004 - 10:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Chris, God is so good. After a rough afternoon and evening of experiencing the same physical-like stab of pain as Colleen describes she received from her old close friend's letter...I came to the forum and your response to John (truthseeker) was like God tucking me in under a warm down comforter. HE KNOWS MY NEEDS! I needed to hear your letter of affirmation. It articulates my own love and thrill for Jesus.

God used you to speak directly to me. "You are not alone. I am here with you FOREVER. Your family does not know me. Your family does not know your heart. I know you. I love you. I am your family!"

Thanks for changing my tears of sadness to tears of joy. You are a true friend!
Chris
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Username: Chris

Post Number: 505
Registered: 7-2003
Posted on Thursday, December 23, 2004 - 11:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dd, I am truly humbled. Praise His Holy Name.
Praisegod
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Username: Praisegod

Post Number: 175
Registered: 3-2004
Posted on Friday, December 24, 2004 - 7:04 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Chris, would it be possible to post your thoughtful reasons to the forum at Christianity.com? It could be used powerfully, I believe, for onlookers.

Praise God...
Truthseeker2004
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Username: Truthseeker2004

Post Number: 55
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Friday, December 24, 2004 - 8:45 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ok...I won't dispute your convictions for leaving the adventist church......We all have different convictions on the same doctrinal issues..even within one denomination...It doesn't make anyone's conviction more or less valuable than the next person. It is simply your perpspective based on your personal experience.
I am finding something very interesting based on
what I have read here and wonder if it can be verified here....Is it true that the majority of those who have left the sda church are the ones who have been in it the longest?
I believe that I mentioned before that I have worked the past 12 years as a counsellor for mentally and physically challenged adults...It is an awesome blessing to do such work..In the process of working for this multi-denominational Christian organization, I established many contacts with various denominations in our community as the residents in the group home all chose to worship in different churches...from Catholic, to Christian Science, vineyard, pentecostal, Presbyterian and on and on.
I attended services in each church as I was responsible for getting the individual there and back home.
It was interesting being sda while attending services at different denominations as well.
From my own observation...People tend to choose their beliefs based on their individual convictions...As an example....I attended weekly study at a vineyard church..It was mostly repetitive worship with little from scripture..It offers something that appeals more to heightening levels of emotion as opposed to teaching one how to become rooted in faith.
Attending a Catholic service would appeal to a person more concerned with order and getting out of the service on time..There appeared to be little to appeal to emotion....It also contained alot of repetition.
Having said that.....bear in mind that these are my observations and others may view it differently.
I have been in many churches and speaking for myself....I can only say that whenever I walk out of an sda church, I always feel as though I have been well fed from the word of God....I need that. I can't find that in any other church....I am more interested in understanding where the church has come, where it is and where it is going that I can't be fed by sermons that are more motivational messages than anything.
I find it discouraging to listen to evangelists on tv like Joel osteen...The message sounds good...but it is motivational speaking...It doesn't touch on how serious sin in our lives is..but concentrates more on what we can get now...I may be wrong..but shouldn't our lives here on earth now have one focus...to give 100% of ourselves to Christ? To desire to walk in obedience....to desire what Jesus told us to be? Mt 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
Everything said here goes against that mentality....If Christ told us to be perfect...and His mind is in us...then we should wake up every day with that desire to live just as He lived....a desire to be perfect as He commanded us to be.

Goldenbear
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Username: Goldenbear

Post Number: 25
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Friday, December 24, 2004 - 9:12 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Truthseeker,
I have had just the opposite experience. I started listening to Mark Martin over the net and was just amazed that his sermons seem to be on point, scriptural, and cohesive. One of the things about the Calvary Chapel is their method of scriptural presentation. Chapter by Chapter - Verse by verse. Chuck Smith, founder of the CC movement, teachings are right down this line as well. Recently I have been attending a Christian Missionary Alliance church where the pastor presents the topic straight from scripture and stays in a chapter and in successive weeks the book. What a change from the experience I had had in the SDA church where most sermons were pulled from a mixture of sources (SOP, bible, and other) Frankly, one of the things I got very tired of was a decent nice sermon ruined by the speaker bringing out the red books to anchor it at the end. The speaker makes a powerful point and then, as if to say "Now to really show you that I have made my point", you hear "and now from the pen of inspiration..." It's as if all the points of the bible were negated. People in the SDA church have really come to the point of believing that EGW is above the bible. A pastor friend of mine told me of a person he was speaking with regarding meat eating. They were very adamant about not eating meat...The pastor went on to ask how the person reconciled the fact the Jesus ate meat. Their response was unbelievable...Jesus didn't have Ellen White's counsel.
Personally, having been in both large and small adventist churches in the Southeast east and northwest, I have found that pastors seemingly begin or end their sermon with a quote from Ellen White to give them authority, as if the bible wasn't enough.

Another thread about favorite lyrics reflected here might be:

My hope is built on nothing less
Than Jesusí blood and righteousness.
I dare not trust the sweetest frame,
But wholly trust in Jesusí Name.

Refrain

On Christ the solid Rock I stand,
All other ground is sinking sand;
All other ground is sinking sand.

When darkness seems to hide His face,
I rest on His unchanging grace.
In every high and stormy gale,
My anchor holds within the veil.

Refrain

His oath, His covenant, His blood,
Support me in the whelming flood.
When all around my soul gives way,
He then is all my Hope and Stay.

Refrain

When He shall come with trumpet sound,
Oh may I then in Him be found.
Dressed in His righteousness alone,
Faultless to stand before the throne.

Susan_2
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Username: Susan_2

Post Number: 1257
Registered: 11-2002
Posted on Friday, December 24, 2004 - 9:24 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Who is Mahlar and Monet? Did your (former)friend mention the really great throughout Christianity, such as, Martin Luther, Calvin, Wesley, Billy Graham, etc? Now, Truthseeker, I will tell you a bit about me. I have no statisics on if mostly folks who have been SDA for many years or those who have been SDA for a breif while who are more likely to split. Maybe someone else on here could answer that. Or bettr yet, you know how the SDA denomination likes to do their health surveys every so often? They send out these questioaires to SDA's and then compare the answers to the general population? Well, maybe the SDA church could send out surveys to formers and then truly find out for themselves what the answer to that is. But, for me, what you mention about finding a church that fits with ones personality really is the case with me. Actually and this is true, any church in which Jesus, The Holy Spirit and God, the Father is held up and made the focus of the organization is THE RIGHT CHURCH. Therefore, as far as I'm concerned it's not about this denomnation over and above and better than that denomination. I am a Christian first and I have chosen to be part of a Christian body called Lutheran. I have attended numerous Christian churches and the Lutheran seems to best fit how I like worship. It's more formmal than most churches. We always know the format of the service week to week, there is very little deviation in the order of service. I like routine.I'm not good with surprises. I didn't care for the SDA church because in the SDA there is VERY LITTLE Bible. At the Lutheran very little of the service is not directly from the Bible. At every service we recite the Our Father in unison. When I was a little girl that was still done in SDA churches. It has long since been abdonded by Adventists. I like reciting the creeds. I like the litergy. I now many of you on here don't agree with the Lutheran position of the wine and the bread being the blood and body of Christ and that's cool, most of us on here don't agree with each other on everything but I happen to agree with the Lutheran church on the Elements. The Lutherans are more Catholic than most Proasstants on this subject and they are more Prostatant than most Catholics on this subjuct. They take the positon of con-sub-stantiation (sp?). Anyway, Truthseeker, I agree, many times a person will seek out a church that meshes with that persons personality. However, any church that places its emphasis on Christ first is the true church of God.
Ric_b
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Username: Ric_b

Post Number: 138
Registered: 7-2004
Posted on Friday, December 24, 2004 - 11:51 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Truthseeker,
I think there is quite a bit to your point about personality styles and worship styles. It is important to understand, though, that worship style is only one factor that many of us consider in a church. Doctrine has been an extremely important point for my wife and I in our search for a new church home. Since my wife was a "lifer" every other church we have visited has had a worship style that she wasn't initially comfortable with. The first church that we spent any significant time in had an order of service and worship style almost identical to the SDA church we left. I guess that the point I am trying to make is that we didn't leave to find a church that "fit" our personalities better. Right now we are attending a church that I would have never picked based on personality preferences but the Christ-centered services keep us coming back in spite of this.

Some of the things that we have consistently found in churches that we have attended since leaving the SDA church:
1) Greater emphasis on the power of prayer, both individually and corporately
2) Classes where people actively search their Bibles and don't let the bounds of a lesson plan constrain their searching in Scripture
3) More expository, rather than topical, sermons
4) More use of Scripture in sermons
5) More frequent reference to Jesus
6) Less emphasis on church finances, projects and "giving"
7) More emphasis on being personally, actively involved in making a difference within the community.

It is certainly a blessing to select a worship style that facilitates your personality style actively communing with God (and we should all avoid the error of assigning our personality to God); however, it is even more important to have substantial doctrinal agreement.

I suspect each Vineyard church may be different. We attened one nearby and found that the pastor had excellent, in-depth Biblical studies for his sermons. But we found that the worship music was too repetitive and (at least we felt) shallow for our tastes.

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