| Author |
Message |
Dennis
Registered user
Username: Dennis
Post Number: 270
Registered: 4-2000
| | Posted on Saturday, January 01, 2005 - 7:35 pm: |     |
PS: On a liberal SDA website, I posted a question as to their personal plans for Christmas--since it would be on Saturday. I asked them if they were planning to open their gifts before sundown on Friday or after sundown on Saturday. I thanked them in advance for their candid replies. Not to my surprise, they all ignored my question.--DJF |
Ric_b
Registered user
Username: Ric_b
Post Number: 151
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, January 01, 2005 - 7:42 pm: | |
A great argument against those who insist on what a blessing the Sabbath is for their family and how it is a special family day.
Mostly, I'm familiar with people overeating and spending the day napping. |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 1162
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, January 01, 2005 - 10:02 pm: | |
Great observation, Ric! Dennis, I'm not surprised the SDAs on the liberal forum you mentioned ignored your question re: when they would be opening their gifts. Even the most liberal/evangelical Adventist who claims the Sabbath has "nothing to do with salvation" would never dare to stop "keeping" it. They use the most fast-pace, creative arguments using multiple texts out of context; they "trample" the Sabbath in their personal lives, but they still believe they could lose their salvation if they gave up their belief in a sacred day.
I guess I'm particularly steamed up about this right now because Richard found a webcast of Mark Finley a few minutes ago, and I just listened to Elder Brooks do a Q&A before Finley's talk. He just did one of those famous Adventist explanations using multiple quotes admonishing us to keep the commanments if we love Jesus. I'm just never prepared for the amazing false premises and straw-man arguments they create on which to hang their Adventist explanations.
Sigh.
Colleen |
Goldenbear
Registered user
Username: Goldenbear
Post Number: 34
Registered: 12-2004
| | Posted on Monday, January 03, 2005 - 6:03 am: | |
We were visiting a church yesterday away from home and the pastor taught about the role of honoring God. It basically on the foolish arguments around not recognizing God for who He is. One of the more fascinating aspects to his presentation was on functional idolatry. I believe for many adventists the Sabbath has become a form of idolatry. They worship the day and not the creator or what it was looking foward to.
I praise God that he has shown my family and I what true freedom in His grace is. |
Chris
Registered user
Username: Chris
Post Number: 516
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Monday, January 03, 2005 - 8:34 am: | |
Goldenbear, I believe you are absolutely correct. I have become more and more aware the longer the I am away from Adventism, that the object of worship for many SDAs is the seventh-day itself. Of course, no SDA would ever admit this or even see it to be so, but one need only listen to their speech, observe their worship services, read their publications, or enter a discussion of spiritual things with them to see that the true focus of their worship is the Sabbbath.
Here's a small indicator that this idea is correct. After leaving Adventism, how many SDAs asked you, "How's your relationship with Jesus?" Now compare that to how many SDAs asked you, "But what about the Sabbath?" This question gives a reliable indicator as to where their real focus and concern is placed.
Chris |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 1165
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Monday, January 03, 2005 - 9:01 am: | |
Chris and Goldenbear, I agree with you. I've also come to the same conclusion. Richard has often commented on the significance of the fact that Adventists never ask us about our relationships with Jesus, only about what we'll do about the Sabbath, as you mentioned, Chris.
I'm more and more convinced that the real heresy about the Sabbath is that it replaces the Holy Spirit in Adventist hearts. Adventists have downplayed Pentecost and its significance because if they really took the book of Acts seriously, they could never support the argument that Adventism is really The True Church. Even though God's church has had periods of both waxing and waning over the past two millennia, it has never ceased to exist. The Holy Spirit has been alive and well in the Body of Christ without interruption since the Day of Pentecost. As Jesus said, the gates of hell will not prevail against it.
The Sabbath is a "Galatian" heresy. It has replaced the Holy Spirit as the mark and seal of God. I really believe that the authentic Adventist teaching of the Sabbath is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. (I'm not saying individual Adventists have committed the unpardonable sin; I am saying that the authentic teaching of Adventism, if it's really embraced, leads one ultimately to accept a blasphemous position.)
Praise God that He knows our hearts and He knows who are His from before the creation of the world. He reveals Himself even to those of us steeped in deception and cultic teachings. He calls us to Himself and He reveals truth. He pulls us out of our blindness and gives us sight and life. He is awesome!
Colleen |
Bob
Registered user
Username: Bob
Post Number: 14
Registered: 7-2000
| | Posted on Monday, January 03, 2005 - 9:08 am: | |
Chris, your comment reminds me of a conversation I had with an SDA pastor's wife, whom I have known since college days. She questioned me extensively about why I had chosen to leave Adventism. I patiently enumerated several of my differences with SDA doctrine, including my conviction that EGW was a false prophet.
To my amazement, this pastor's wife said she personally agreed with me on each point I had made! "However," she asserted, "I could never give up the Sabbath." |
Chris
Registered user
Username: Chris
Post Number: 517
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Monday, January 03, 2005 - 9:31 am: | |
I have had similar conversations, Bob.
Your story brings up some interesting questions. Does SDA idolatry go beyond just worship of a day and also extend to devotion to a denomination, a system, and a social setting?
I ask this because it would be perfectly possible to leave Adventism and worship with other Sabbatarian groups without the baggage of EGW or the IJ. Or alternatively, if you had difficulty finding a Sabbatarian group in your area you could almost certainly find a church with Sat. evening services and observe Sabbath quitely in your home.
My point is, many SDAs cling to their denomination even when they've ceased to believe nearly all the SDA distinctives (with the possible exception of the Sabbath). To me this suggests an allegiance to an organization instead of a primary allegiance to Jesus Christ and His Word. This too is a form of idolatry.
What do you think?
Chris |
Pw
Registered user
Username: Pw
Post Number: 235
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Monday, January 03, 2005 - 10:23 am: | |
Dennis, I also posted that Sabbath/Christmas question on another site and got a nasty reply saying that I'm only trying to cause problems and not to instigate such questions. I think it was better to get no responses. :-) |
Vchowdhury1
Registered user
Username: Vchowdhury1
Post Number: 101
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Monday, January 03, 2005 - 10:34 am: | |
I too have spoken with a few sda's friends and relatives who are practically in total agreement with almost everything that made me personally reject sda doctrine and the sda church itself. And, you're right, one thing that they cannot give up is the "Sabbath" or the idea of the "Sabbath" being their salvation.(or really should be correctly stated, they cannot give up the sda church) As was stated in an earlier post, there are many sabbatarian religions that do not adhere to the writings and doctrines of EGW, but my sda apologist friends and relatives would not even entertain the idea of joining any of these groups. In fact, its even come down to the fact that the few that I talked to don't even mind if myself or other people have given up the "Sabbath", and they will even go so far as to admit to the fact that they, themselves, are "sloppy" in keeping the "Sabbath". But, just the idea of giving up the sda religion is beyond comprehension to them. So, you're right, the "day" and the "religion" is their "god". And, I agree with Colleen when she says that this blasphems the Holy Spirit.
--Valerie |
Bob
Registered user
Username: Bob
Post Number: 15
Registered: 7-2000
| | Posted on Monday, January 03, 2005 - 10:48 am: | |
I think you are right, Chris. For many SDAs, their allegiance to the Sabbath is a kind of "shorthand" for their blind allegiance to the SDA organization as their only means of salvation. Clearly this is idolatry.
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Vchowdhury1
Registered user
Username: Vchowdhury1
Post Number: 102
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Monday, January 03, 2005 - 11:21 am: | |
Oh, I forgot to add this comment to my last post. My parents, who are staunch sda, had our family Christmas get together the DAY AFTER Christmas because they "don't do Christmas on Sabbath". This still "irritates" the you know what out of me, even today as an adult.
--Valerie
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Melissa
Registered user
Username: Melissa
Post Number: 647
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Monday, January 03, 2005 - 11:26 am: | |
Years ago, I had asked B's sister in law if Saturday was the issue, why he couldn't find a church without EGW (just because that seemed to be the least offensive issue to mention). She was adamant that they would never support such a move. He could ONLY go to the SDA church. Though they seem to claim the issue is the sabbath, they are bound by the denomination being the "true" church and I see a real fear that they won't go to heaven if they're not a part of the "right" church. Certainly, the issue of the sabbath is their primary "Biblical" link to the church, but to me it acts more as a "legitimate" cover for the tactic used to keep people bound by the religion itself. If they don't claim the sabbath, they really don't have any strong "Biblical" tie to even give the appearance of legitimacy. They are bare as are JW, Mormons and other cult groups. (And I'm not saying the sabbath is legitimately used, just that that is an OT teaching that is highly misunderstood within Christianity today...it opens the door to inquiring minds, though.) It's more of that infamous deceptive spirit that is pervasive within the religion... in my opinion. |
Susan_2
Registered user
Username: Susan_2
Post Number: 1281
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Monday, January 03, 2005 - 1:43 pm: | |
I will have to comment on this conversation. Yes, I agree with each of you very much. I honestly believe The Sabbth has replaced Jesus, not only in denominational policy but also with individual SDA's. I have come to this conclusion because I not only know may SDA's, I also read the magazines that come in my relativs mail. As far as the comment about the Holy Spirit being active throughout Chrstianity, well, SDA's will explain it this way--The Waldenses kept the Sabbath so them and them only had the guideance of the Holy Spirit. Of course, I am sure most of us on here have read the statement by the Waldensian leaders who say they have never observed the seventh-day, Sabbath, but, nonetheless, that is how the SDA's explain away that issue. A few of the more educated SDA's will acknowledge that the Seventh Day Baptists have been keeping Sabbath for 300 or so years but it totally amazes me how many SDA's don't even know their own church history, that EGW first learned of Sabbath observance from a Seventh Day Baptist person. And, even SDA's who do know about the SDB say that the SDB's were fine for their time but after the SDA came along "with the rest of the truth" then of course all the SDB's should now become SDA. Honest, I'm not just getting all wacked out here, I have actually been told this nonsense. Now, about the unpardonable sin-- recently in one of the SDA magazines was a question asking for an explanation of the unpardonable sin. When I read it I quoted it here on this forum but I will now give you a breif summary of the answer. I think it was in the Review, but I'm not completely certain about this. It could have been the Amazing Facts or one of the other magazines, possibly the Pacific Union Recorder, I'm not certain which magazine. Anyway, the answer given is that the unpardonable sin is any sin which God has not yet pardoned. If we have not asked forgiveness for a particular sin then that sin hasn't been pardoned yet, thus it is our own unpardonable sin. That is just exactially how I was raised. In fact, my mom just got through telling me this defination recently. It's a horrid, awful defination and can lead a person towards insanity always wondering if he remembered to ask forgiveness for every sin. And, I haven't even gotten to the sins of omission, just the sins of commission. This defination totally whacks out any concept of grace. It is in total agreement of the SDA doctrine of having to achieve perfection before one can recieve grace. I do not mean to offend anyone reading this but that doctrine of the unpardonable sin is just plain of the devil. |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 1168
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Monday, January 03, 2005 - 2:06 pm: | |
I agree. The Sabbath is the excuse to remain loyal to the church. I think most Adventists would even have trouble explaining why they had to remain loyal if they could keep Sabbath elsewhere--they just know they must! Real fear surfaces at the thought of leaving, and I'm not sure they know why.
I also agree, Susan, that if a person stringently tries to observe all of Adventism's rules and teachings, they would eventually become insane. If one does not find Jesus and pray to know Him, Adventism either ultimately sucks one into the confusion of mental illness or ejects him into agnosticism.
Colleen |
Belvalew
Registered user
Username: Belvalew
Post Number: 92
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Monday, January 03, 2005 - 3:14 pm: | |
Oh, Colleen, that last statement, I've never heard my experience in Adventism so well distilled! |
Flyinglady
Registered user
Username: Flyinglady
Post Number: 888
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Monday, January 03, 2005 - 4:42 pm: | |
Oh Colleen,
You do have a way with words. I will repeat you. "If one does not find Jesus and pray to know Him, Adventism either ultimately sucks one into the confusion of mental illness or ejects him into agnosticism." So very well said.
Diana |
Kristina3
Registered user
Username: Kristina3
Post Number: 1
Registered: 11-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 04, 2005 - 12:11 pm: | |
I'm so glad I found this website. Now I know I am not the only one dealing with these isssues with my family. I grew up SDA but when I got married my husband (who grew up Catholic) and I found a non-denominationsl Christian church. We were both baptized and have been going there ever since. Of course this is a horrible thing to my side of the family who are all Adventists. My worst offense is that I go to church on a Sunday. The second is that I am not "keeping" the Sabbath and there by breaking the 10 Commandments. Other issues include the clean and unclean foods. At first it made my stomach churn to have to talk about these things with my family, but over the years my husband and I have become more familiar with what the Bible actually teaches and are able to defend out position. You are all correct in that you can not reason with an SDA. It's like no matter what they will not give up the Sabbath. It seems like it is more important than our salvation through Jesus. Even when we point out their mistaken beliefs with scripture, they twist things to explain why they are right. I don't know what the sermons are like at the SDA churches but I get the impression that it is more of a brainwashing than a spiritual feeding. I am just thankful that I am free of that trap. |
Bob
Registered user
Username: Bob
Post Number: 17
Registered: 7-2000
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 04, 2005 - 12:21 pm: | |
Kristina, I live in the "SDA Mecca" of Southern California. Even here, in the large SDA churches, the sermons leave a lot to be desired! How can they be great preachers when they are not preaching the true Gospel of Jesus? Our Lord said His Spirit would come to testify of Him, and that the Spirit would speak only of Him. If they are not testifying of Jesus, they cannot have the power of the Spirit in their preaching. |
Flyinglady
Registered user
Username: Flyinglady
Post Number: 892
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 04, 2005 - 6:44 pm: | |
Kristina3,
Welcome to the FAF. How long have you been lurking and reading what is said here? Tell us about yourself, when you are ready.
God is awesome.
Diana |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 1180
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 04, 2005 - 8:27 pm: | |
Bob, great point. "If they're not testifying of Jesus, they cannot have the power of the Spirit in their preaching."
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