| Author | Message | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 860 Registered: 3-2004 |
I had a two hour conversation with my younger brother yesterday. He discovered the plagiarism of EGW and everything else about her, about 8 years ago. As we spoke he made the comment that he could not understand why SDAs defend her so, even more than they do the Bible. He has been on many SDA chat rooms and Christian chatrooms on the internet. Even when he quoted the Bible the SDAs still did not believe him. As we talked it occurred to me, and I told him, that because he was not raised a typical SDA and did not have the SDA schooling that I had, that he was not as "brained washed" as I or others are because he was not steeped in the SDA beliefs. I told him that the Sabbath is a salvation issue for SDAs and that if they lose that they are fearful they will not make it to heaven. I told him the SDAs do not know that all we need is Jesus. I pointed out to him how other issues are salvation issues to SDAs. It helped him to understand SDAs better. I even told him that I had not raised my son a strict SDA and he does not see the cultic doctrine of the church. That is because I did not teach it to him. Do you folks see SDAs this way??? BTW, my brother told me he occasionally goes to a Christian church on Sunday, which he had not told me before. His wife is SDA, more an evangelical then historic. Please pray for both of them. It was wonderful talking to him as I did and just made me see again how awesome God is. Diana | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 1262 Registered: 11-2002 |
This brings me to a subject I had wanted to make a new discussion but I don't know how to make a new thread. It is this-Would you on this forum consider the SDA church-the orginazation, not the rank and file members, but the organization itself to be Christian? I have pretty much decided the SDA church, the denomination cannot be considered protastant but is it Christian? I know the basic defination of Christian is simply one who believes in Jesus as Lord and Saviour, for forgiveness of all our sins. The Apostles Creed summaries Christianity the best and the easiest to understand. Yet, like Diana mentioned above there is so much more as salvation requirements within Adventism than Jesus. Because of these added belief requirements can the SDA denomination be considered Christian? Yes, Diana, as with your brother thre are many who were raised as nominal Adventists and unlike your brother who say the light remain nominal Adventists not seeing what the big deal is. I realize too that just because an organization says it is Christian does not necessarily make it so. | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 262 Registered: 4-2000 |
Even though there are Christians among Adventists, they have to disregard many tenets of their church in order to have a personal relationship with Jesus. Adventists are kept very busy doing many things--even very good things. Keeping constantly busy is a requirement to survive daily doubt, fear, and paranoia. Their theology, notably their stance of not having a spirit (soul) entity, makes it very difficult for them to really understand salvation. Sadly, they don't even believe in receiving the gift of salvation now. Salvation is something in the future for them IF the investigative judgment clears their names. Therefore, they cannot be very excited about it in this life. Without any assurance of salvation, they are assailed with crippling doubt and their walk with Jesus remains tentative. Most Adventists are smart enough, despite their perfection theology to the contrary, to realize that they cannot reach God's standard of righteousness--even with divine assistance. External measurements, like eating, sabbathing and tithing, reveal to them their constant imperfections and struggles. Indeed, it is not easy to be a legalist in any form. Collectively, my wife and I have over 100 years of SDA experience to base our convictions on. Our leaving Adventism was not a rash, overnight decision, but rather one that included years of study and prayer. I guess we were slow learners (smile). However, in the process of leaving, we learned alot about Adventism and biblical Christianity that we never knew before. Sylvia and I consider it a miracle of God's grace that we were called out of Adventism. As Colleen often reminds us, God redeems our past and nothing is lost. The years the locusts ate are restored. Praise God! As many of you already know, I have an online chaplaincy ministry. Repeatedly, the emails that I receive from inquiring Adventists bring tears to my eyes. I truly feel their pain, heartache, and desperation. Just yesterday I received an email from a person that grew up Adventist. Ellen White's writings were so depressing to this person that it resulted in forsaking God and His Word. When I hear such testimonies, I truly weep as I type replies of encouragement to them. Yes, I know grown men aren't supposed to shed tears. Every person is so very important to our wonderful Lord and Savior. My heart truly aches as I hear about their constant, needless struggles. Let's continue to remember our Adventist friends and relatives in prayer. Dennis J. Fischer | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 1142 Registered: 12-2003 |
Dennis, your first paragraph above is such a wonderful description of Adventism. While the church claims orthodox Christian beliefs, it also teaches heretical ones--such as man not having a spirit other than breath--which negate the truth contained in the orthodox statements. It is not a true Christian church because it both adds to and subtracts from the gospel. I know I'd catch a lot of flack for saying so, but how can something be both Christian and un-Christian at the same time? It is, or it isn't. My recent spate of mail has had an unusual number of letters from Adventists who just cannot see how I (we all!) could say such things about Adventism as we say here and in Proclamation, and who are just so sorry I've had such a bad experience in the church because it's not all like I think it is. I just want to sigh and say, "Have you ever thought through the implications of the facts even the church acknowledges? EGW plagiarized; she changed her convictions over time; the IJ cannot be proven from the Bible alone; etc." I find myself wanting to startle them into wakefulness and say, "Stop projecting your anger and confusion onto me. Your defensiveness gives away the facts of your own insecurity and doubts." But I don't say such things to them. Instead, I read the letters to Richard just so I can share my reactions with someone, and I continue to pray that the spirit of Adventism will be exposed and broken so people can come to know Jesus without the cloud of deception obscuring their vision of the truth of freedom and rest in Jesus. Some days, as Dennis alluded above, are quite overwhelming with their weight of Adventist anger and despair. Praise God that He is sovereign even over this most subtle of heresies, and He will use this great deception to bring glory to Himself just as He used Pharaoh's hard heart to glorify Himself, ultimately, among the Egyptians as well as the Israelites. Colleen | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 145 Registered: 7-2004 |
About two or three months before the series of events began that finalized our leaving the SDA church, I had an intriguing conversation with one of my friends from the SDA church we were most recently members of. She is staunchly SDA, but paradoxically seems to also understand grace more than most SDA's. She comes from a very large family and she was lamenting to me that nearly all of her siblings (most older than her)were not really SDA's but were attending other Sunday churches. She said these siblings also seemed to believe in immediate life after death and thought it was no big deal to go to church on Sunday. When she would ask them how they could go along with these different beliefs, they wouldn't have much to say except that it doesn't matter and these other churches are Christian too. She was asking me if I could understand how someone could leave the "truths" they grew up with, and at that time I also said I couldn't understand it. As it turns out, she is one of the very, very few from that church who has continued to maintain contact with us. Her concern and kindness shows she truly has the Spirit of Christ in her. I know at some point she will ask me how I could possibly change as well, and I hope I can put it into words half as eloquently as Colleen and Dennis do! I would appreciate prayers for her and her husband, as their family is somewhat "divided". Her husband, who was raised in a conservative SDA family, is very bitter towards SDA's and will have nothing to do with any religion, although he fully respects his wife's convictions. She faithfully goes to the SDA church every Sabbath and hopes he'll join her someday. | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 507 Registered: 7-2003 |
Colleen, I pray for you. It would be much easier for you to have as little contact with Adventism as possible. However, it appears God has chosen a ministry for you that involves you in His work of bringing people out of bondage. It's always a priviledge to be invited to be involved where God is at work, but it is not always easy. In a ministry like this you will experience great spiritual warfare and very real fatigue. It's clear to me from your post that you are a person that wears the armor of God. I pray that God will continue to give you and Richard the strength you need to serve. I have no doubt that there is great reward in store. Chris | ||
| Dd Registered user Username: Dd Post Number: 283 Registered: 7-2004 |
Yes, Colleen and Dennis. I second Chris' remarks. You both could easily take your talents and ministry to an area of need that would be less personal and bring far less heartache. I am inspired by your strength and desire to bring Christ's love to a group of people who can hurt you deeply. I pray daily for you to see a glimpse of God's Sovereignty in all the ugliness so that you may be encouraged to continue fighting the good fight. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 1144 Registered: 12-2003 |
Thank you, Chris and Dd. God really is faithful; the spiritual warfare is real, but God does reveal His sovereignty and gives us strength and hope that I know I'm not capable of generating! I praise God for calling each of by name and for preparing each of us for the work He brings each of us to do. I'm often overwhelmed and amazed at the reality of the body of Christ; in Adventism I never experienced the sort of encouragement and love and support and compassion I've experienced here on this forum and also in our local church. The reality of Christ in us--individually and corporately--is astonishing. There are many counterfeits of unity in the Spirit, but the counterfeits lack the power and sincerity of the real thing. Praise God for bringing us into His church--His body! Colleen | ||
| Lydell Registered user Username: Lydell Post Number: 660 Registered: 7-2000 |
Colleen, I remember getting an e-mail from someone years ago who told us that she was sorry we had had such an unfortunate experience with the SDA congregations we had been in relying on EGW more than the Bible, but hers "isn't like that". We had a chance to challenge her to examine it more closely and see if that was really the truth. A year or so later we heard back from her saying that she had examined her church, and discovered that what we had said was true after all. She is out now too. I relate that as an encouragement to you. There is no one who sees Proclaimation, or comes to this site to "visit" who was not led here by the Lord. What you are doing is planting seeds. Yeah, they go away angry. But they also go away aggitated in the spirit, which is far more important. No seed planted is wasted. Of course it depends on the willingness to listen. But many many who are the recipients of those seeds....whether they asked for them or not...are no longer comfortable and complacent. The Lord has started them on a journey out. Then there are those who will be the carrier of the seed, spouting to someone something "annoying" they read, and the seed is passed on. God's word does not return void. So stand firm girlfriend. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 1145 Registered: 12-2003 |
Lydell, thank you so much for reminding me of the bigger picture! I know you are right--I sometimes lose sight of that ongoing "niggling" of consience that often lingers in people after what seems to me to be a dead-end exchange. Just last night I answered an email from an Adventist pastor who had been purusing this website, and while he was gracious, he referred to the "bitterness" of all of us here. He also took exception to my statements that ADventists must accept the 27 Fundamentals in order to join the church including acknowledging Ellen as a prophet. He explained that to be baptized, people only have to accept the 13 articles of faith, not the 27 Fundamentals, and they don't have to accept Ellen as a prophet because that is not in the 13 Fundamentals. (Is that crazy-making or what?!) I acknolwedged my error but pointed out that once members, people are responsible to uphold all 27 Fundamentals whether they know them at the time of Baptism or not. They are the substance of being an Adventist. I also told him that the biggest crisis any of us face is the crisis of whether or not we are willing to give up everything--even everything we believe to be true--for the sake of knowing Jesus and being taught Scripture by His Spirit. I've receive a reply--he was kind, but he falls back on the "every church has something wrong with it," and he feels at home in the SDA church and teaches/preaches only the gospel truths in the Bible, not the more "cultural" distinctives of the church. Thank you for reminding me, Lydell, that seed planting is what we're doing. We may not personally see the yield in this life, but we must plant seeds as God brings the opportunities. God is sovereign! Colleen | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 511 Registered: 7-2003 |
Colleen, with all due respect to the minister who wrote you, I believe he is engaging in a bit of mental and verbal song and dance. Here is SDA baptismal vow #8: "8. Do you accept the Biblical teaching of spiritual gifts, and do you believe that the gift of prophecy in the remnant church is one of the identifying marks of that church? (See pp. 39, 40, 293. [of SDA church manual])" Hmmmm, what could be meant by "gift of prophecy"? Well, on the inside of my baptismal certificate (1980) the answer is made pretty plain by inclusion of the 27 fundamental beliefs that exapand on the 13 vows on the outside of the my certificate. Perhaps the latest baptismal certificates have a different format, but I copied fundamental #17 directly from the current official SDA denominational website (www.adventist.org) from the section "Adventist Beliefs - Fundamental Beliefs". "17. The Gift of Prophecy: One of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is prophecy. This gift is an identifying mark of the remnant church and was manifested in the ministry of Ellen. G. White . As the Lord's messenger, her writings are a continuing and authoritative source of truth which provide for the church comfort, guidance, instruction, and correction. They also make clear that the Bible is the standard by which all teaching and experience must be tested. (Joel 2:28, 29; Acts 2:14-21; Heb. 1:1-3; Rev. 12:17; 19:10.)" It seems quite clear to me. Those wishing to be baptized by an SDA minister must sign a vow saying they believe in the "gift of prophecy". Official church publications, websites, and my baptismal certificate all define "the gift of prophesy" as being manifested in the ministry of EGW. It takes some pretty fancy tap dancing to get around that. Do you suppose the minister who wrote you could assert, with a serious face, that most SDAs believe this to refer to something or someone other than EGW? Do you suppose he thinks this refers to other prophets that are currently active and would accept such prophets in his church? I rather doubt it. Chris | ||
| Goldenbear Registered user Username: Goldenbear Post Number: 31 Registered: 12-2004 |
Chris, As I reflect on your last paragraph I am smiling. If you did the Pepsi Taste Test on Joseph Smith, Ellen White, Nostrodomus, and others who have claimed to forsee the future, I wonder if the Adventist Church would accept any of it? If you begin your investigation already predisposed to believe that EGW is a prophet you really don't investigate. If a person stood up in any SDA church and started pointing out problems with EGW they would be run out on a rail. For most Adventist it is easy to dismiss others who prophesy or give counsel as being "of the devil" or "false prophets". I doubt 1 in 20 (or is it 1 in a 100) have actually investigated and challenged honestly EGW with the tests of the prophets or against the bible. | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 1264 Registered: 11-2002 |
Colleen, I hope you aren't getting too discouraged, especially with notes from former friends. You have helped bring comfort and Gods grace and peace to way more folks than dispare. Proclamation is an awsome magazine, this latest issue being the best one yet. I save them. I punch holes in them and keep them in a three-ring binder. And, yeah. like Chris mentioned above that preacher can spin it all he want but that doesn't change the fact that when SDA's use the term "spitit of prophecy" they mean that term only in referring to EGW. It is blasphomas to use that term that way but they do it. And, maybe the SDA minister who wrote saying he preaches only the pure gosple, well, maybe he really does do that. But, if he does that he most likly will be fired by the conference. Back in the late 70's-early 80's was a wonderful SDA pastor who only preached the gosple. He grew the local SDA church from only a handful of old people to a packed church that had to have two packed services every Saturday. He would baptize everyone who requested baptism into Jesus Christ regardless of their current non-compliance to SDA rules (examples would be someone who is still smoking or other things that are contrary to SDA rules) believing one first gives his life to Jesus and then the power of God will help that person overcome his weaknesses. I went to this church regurally for 12 years, the length of the time this man pastored at Fresno Central SDA. After 12 years I had NEVER heard a reference to EGW, a quote by EGW or anything but the stright gosple truth. Then after 12 years of this the Central California SDA Conference fired him. That church fell apart and now is not much more than it was before he came there. He has a wonderful independent ministry now and pastors a non-denominational church on Saturdays. When I'm in that area I will try to get to the service he pastors. DennisRainwater who posts on here sometimes knows of this situtation, too. So, maybe Colleen the minister you have been e-mailing with really does preach the true gosple. But, if he does I think he'll get fired if the conference people notice. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 1149 Registered: 12-2003 |
Chris, thank you for quoting from the baptisimal certificate. I can't remember where mine is--and besides, mine is older than dirt by now! I did mention exactly that point to the pastor. I commented that while the 13 statements didn't state EGW was a prophet, still the "spirit of prophecy" is understood by all SDAs to be embodied by EGW, and that is what her writings are called. In his response he addressed my concerns about deception by saying he was comfortable with how the church represents itself "on paper". He said, "You interpret it as deceptive. I interpret it as being open enough to differing views within the faith. It allows me to teach with confidence those things stated explicitly while ignoring those cultural things that I believe have hurt our denomination and our ability to share the everlasting GOSPEL." I am still jarred by the rationalization and by Adventists' inability to see what we're talking about. The veil is over their hearts. It's amazing to me how convoluted their rationalizations are, and how content they are to be Adventists in spite of the unsolvable problems right in front of them. Susan, I don't know whether or not this pastor really teaches the pure gospel. If he does, he will have trouble, as you say. It sounds, though, as if he is rationalizing. God is sovereign, though--He will continue to confront him--as He confronts us--with the ways we need to grow. Colleen | ||
| Praisegod Registered user Username: Praisegod Post Number: 178 Registered: 3-2004 |
Let me add a slightly different twist to the pot of what Iím observing with someone I know. He, too, only preaches the gospel and for years was saying exactly what this man said to you, Colleen. He accused me of being too ìblack and white.î However, during this period of him preaching only the gospel, God was processing him out of the church by teaching him the New Covenant and showing him error in other doctrines. It was almost like God kept a veil over him from seeing the duplicity while using him to reach others with the Gospel while he himself had to learn many new things. When he got to a certain point, the veil was removed and he now has plans in place to leave the SDA pastorate. So as long as a pastor is truly preaching the Gospel and understands what it is to walk in the Spirit, I donít believe they will last as an SDA pastor. Either they themselves will come to quit or as Susan says, the conference will become aware and they will fire them. In some respects, being allowed the freedom to do their own thing only prolongs pastors stepping into a better ministry where they can reach more people. But it also gives them a protective shield to continue getting paid and ministering to people while God teaches them the true Gospel of the New Covenant without Adventist trappings. I believe if we only knew, that there are vast numbers of pastors in various stages of leaving Adventism about now. Courage in the Lord, Colleen, Dennis and others, as you are doing a mighty work. Praise GodÖ | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 143 Registered: 7-2004 |
Colleen, The church manual goes even further than that. According to the church manual, in order to become a member you must accept ALL doctrines of the church and once you are a member if you deny or teach contrary to any of these doctrines you are subject to church discipline.
A local church decides whether to discipline a member, BUT official church policy would call for disciplining (up to and including disfellowshipping) any member who denies ANY of the fundamental beliefs (in which the prophetic gift of EGW is clearly stated).
Chapter 3 listed here is the 27 Fundamental Beliefs. The specially prepared appendix referenced above is also very clear about the SDA church's position on EGW.
Clearly any pastor who is not instructing baptismal candidates about the role of EGW in the church is teaching something different than the SDA church has instructed them to teach. I am routinely dismayed by SDAs who try to defend the church by claiming that belief in the prophetic gift of EGW is optional as an SDA. This is clearly not the case. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 1150 Registered: 12-2003 |
Great points, PraiseGod and Ric_b. PraiseGod, I believe you are right that there are many pastors who are being convicted of the new covenant while remaining blind to the duplicity of the church. God's timing everything; I'm certain you're right that God protects them while they are learning. If they decide to say "yes" to walking out the church when He removes the veil and opens the doors, He will provide for them. Ric_b--thank you for the church manual quotes. (I need to get one of those!) I agree completely with you--I am frankly annoyed when Advenitsts claim belief in EGWs "prophetic gift" is optional or not even an issue. Of COURSE it's an issue; without her, regardless of what thinks about her status, there would be no Adventist doctrines. There would be no church to defend. Their circular reasoning makes me dizzy. Praise God for knowing how to reveal the truth to each one of us! Colleen | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 210 Registered: 10-2004 |
Colleen, the SDA "Church Manual" is available on the official SDA web site at: http://www.adventist.org/beliefs/church_manual/index.html The "Church Manual" also states:
Also, number 11 of the "Baptismal Vow" which every new member is supposed to agree to, states:
And the last of the 13 vows states:
So, combine that with number 8, which says, "Do you accept the biblical teaching of spiritual gifts and believe that the gift of prophecy is one of the identifying marks of the remnant church?", and you see that the Baptismal Vow is indeed (even if subtly and deceitfully and unknown to the "baptismal candidate") making the candidate vow that they believe in EGW. The only "gift of prophecy" the "remnant church" (which is stated to be the SDA church) "recognizes" is EGW's supposed "gift." Jeremy | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 1273 Registered: 11-2002 |
Can anyone purchase one of those SDA church manuals at he ABC? | ||
| Pradez2 Registered user Username: Pradez2 Post Number: 10 Registered: 12-2003 |
Colleen, as I saw people get baptized in my former church, the pastor would read each of the 27 doctrines. Tell that pastor of yours what would happen during the reading if the baptizee were to say no to even one or two. UNHEARD OFF!!! To this day I have never seen it. Talk about cognitive dissonance. My lifetime experience within the SDA fold both in the U.S. and Puerto Rico cannot be glossed over just like that. Sorry, no way, no how. The pastor in your email exchange is confusing and confused. There is a Spanish saying that goes something like this: "there is no worse blind person that the one who does not wish to see..." In the past, I would have been mean to that pastor. Now, I rather disagree amicably and let him be. p.s. Cognitive Dissonance, thy name is the lesser light leading me to a spiritual, prooftexted existance... Sorry for the sarcasm :} |
