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Praisegod
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Post Number: 189
Registered: 3-2004
Posted on Tuesday, January 04, 2005 - 1:42 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Colleen, I believe you and I have been contemplating the same thoughts the last couple of days. Maybe itís a New Yearís thing. You made these two separate comments:

1) ìI've often thought that perhaps one of God's purposes in allowing so many of us to grow up Adventist (or otherwise become involved with Adventism) is that we will understand the New Covenant in a way much of Christianity does not, and we'll be able to speak on its behalf as God brings us the opportunities.î

2) ìI really see a significant part of our calling as formers to be to pray for the truth to become known and for people to be able to freely see and choose the freedom of the true gospel. I think people all over--not just connected to Adventism--are beginning to polarize. They're having either to accept or reject the truth about Jesus. They can be either "tolerant" or committed.î

I thought Iíd start a new thread so we can discuss what we have found to be our calling as formers. Also, how we can continue (or start) to turn lemons into lemonade. Iím sure Iím not the only one who has bemoaned all those wasted years in Adventism.

On the surface, itís so frustrating that we get no open acknowledgement that anyone can study their way out of Adventism. Actually, though, we are getting acknowledged. Why else books written specifically to counter Daleís? I wonder if there will soon be an SDA one on the proper understanding of Covenants?

I believe weíve much power in prayer, especially our corporate prayer we have organized. But any other ideas?

Praise GodÖ

Praisegod
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Post Number: 190
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Posted on Tuesday, January 04, 2005 - 1:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Oops, I put that the wrong place. Can it be moved?
Colleentinker
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Post Number: 1175
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Posted on Tuesday, January 04, 2005 - 4:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It's OK--we can find it!

Yes, PraiseGod, they are noticing, they're just not publicly admitting it. There have been many responses: books written, "retrieving former members" programs, local church programs patterned after those at neighboring evangelical churches, grace-oriented cirricula for children, etc.

In one letter I got during the week before Christmas, a person who used to be associated with my family through marriage took me to task--politely, sort-of--for my stance. (Interestingly, this person's family of origin was oppressively--I might even say abusively--rigid and demanding based on Ellen's writings and health rules.)

The letter led with "I am really truly sorry that you had such a bad experience growing up Adventist." It ended with a recitation of the progressive accomplishments of the church today: at their church "the Gospel is preached every Sabbath", the children's departments have adopted the "Grace Link" curriculum put out by the GC (each lesson stresses three parts: God's love for us, our love/worship of God, sharing His love with the community); half the students at the local SDA school are non-SDA including children of the pastors of a local Christian church; the Bible curriculum as been rewritten and is not teaching "that you'll get the 'mark of the beast' if you attend a church other than an SDA church."

Yes, they're noticing, and much of their response seems to be to further camouflage the reality of Adventism without actually changing it.

Along with praying for the spirt of Adventism to be exposed and broken, I also pray that God will put His work for me in front of me and equip me to do it faithfully. Remember Ephesians 2:10? Paul says we are God's creations designed for the work He prepared in advance for us to do!

He does seem to bring us formers some unique job descriptions! What have the rest of you experienced?

Colleen
Chris
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Post Number: 522
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Posted on Tuesday, January 04, 2005 - 5:07 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Colleen, after my testimony was published in Proclamation, I received a few disparaging letters. I'm not sure how these folks tracked me down, but one letter actually came to the hospital I work at. One of the paragraphs started,

"I know you feel as though the Adventist church let you down."

Funny, I don't remember writing anything at all about feeling let down. Why is this assumed? This same paragraph ended,

"...whose fault was it, Chris?"

One of my other favorite lines from the letter is as follows,

"Chris, I know you believe that faith and grace alone save you. I know your belief hangs on the jailor's question/Paul's answer. But there is more to it than that."

Pretty sad.

Chris
Colleentinker
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Post Number: 1179
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Posted on Tuesday, January 04, 2005 - 8:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Amazing, Chris. It just leaves one feeling helpless and voiceless and ignored.

But thank God that He also brings us opportunities to speak the truth to people who do want to know!

Colleen
Vchowdhury1
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Post Number: 104
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Posted on Wednesday, January 05, 2005 - 11:30 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Chris, I myself have encountered sda friends and relatives that tell me that there is more to it than grace and faith. The next question I ask them is "grace and faith is not enough according to who"? Usually they can not answer this question because they really have no biblical answer (outside of egw of course, which they wouldn't dare quote to me because they know my feelings about her). Now, most of my sda friends and relatives avoid the discussion of religion at all with me. I notice outside of EGW, sda's really have no answers. Not even biblical ones. For one, the MAJORITY of sda's only study their bible in conjunction with the "sabbath school lesson", other sda publications, some seminar, or some "evangelistic" program or meetings. As was mentioned in another post, sda's are usually discouraged from studying the Bible on their own especially any translation other than the King James version (which to me is very difficult to read). As sda's, we were always told to "watch out" for other translations, because of possible typographical "errors" that could change an "interpretation" of the scriptures. And most sda's don't understand that the King James version of the scriptures in itself is a translation. I've often brought up certain topics pertaining to grace and the new covenant, and now the sda's give me these answers: "I don't know. I have to look it up", or my favorite answer, "Well, thats YOUR interpretation". I think sometimes there's no way you can win with people who have been brainwashed for years, and I really have compassion for them. I really think that, outside of prayer, the sda mentality will not change unless they are willing to open their minds to other possibilities (this is the also same with other cults". Imagine trying to change a "Hari Krisna", or "Muslim" convert after 35 or 40 years especially if their family is also still into these cults). Or try to imagine talking someone OUT OF "falling in love" after they've already done so. Practically impossible to do. This is just how hard it is to talk a staunch sda out of his beliefs. And, I keep remembering the way I used to think when I was really into the sda church for over 35 years. Nothing anyone could have said or done would have made me change my sda mentality no matter what I was shown. It was not until I was willing to be open and look at other possibilities and studied for myself that I was willing to change my thought process. I can't help but notice that on in this forum several of us "formers" have spouses, friends, parents, and other family members that will not see the things we have learned about in our journey out, and I can see the intense "frustration" on this forum in regards to our loved ones. But, remember, sometimes it could take years, and an open mind to change someones thought process. And, on top of that, they have to be willing to change or accept. I don't frustrate myself anymore. I just pray for them, and just think that something I have said will one day give them a "whoa" moment in the future.

--Valerie
Esther
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Post Number: 103
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Posted on Wednesday, January 05, 2005 - 1:00 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Valerie,
I completely relate to what you've just stated. I was once a debater too, and I always check in to the forums where it's getting heated and thick. But the last couple of months, I haven't had the heart for debating anymore. I've realized that it's much better (for me personally anyway) to walk the line between "avoid foolish controversies about the law" and "always be ready to give an anwer for your faith". Although i don't avoid SDA arguments because I'm afraid... (in reality 99% of all their arguments don't stand with pure Biblical comparison) I do find that once they've been confronted on something they don't want to face, the only response left to them is to attack and/or focus on unimportant details that most often don't even pertain to the issue at hand. Also, I can admit that as a former, I can quickly gravitate towards being defensive myself. And frankly, now I have to say "what's the point". I will engage with them, but once it's dropped from intellectual discussion to rabid defenses it's not going to go anywhere...and I find the appropriate exit to the conversation.

I have an aquaintance who still asks us "are you still following your new beliefs?" and the emphasis and drawing out of "new beliefs" always strikes me like fingernails on a chalkboard. As if, these strange, new, crazy ideas of ours will soon pass and it will all return to normal, and everyone will be able to say "I told you so". Anyway, so I too keep praying for "whoa" moments to come. :-)
Colleentinker
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Post Number: 1186
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Posted on Wednesday, January 05, 2005 - 3:38 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Oh, Esther--how true--both paragraphs!

It's amazing to me--Adventists are SO sensitive to any slurs against their particular beliefs--yet they have to qualms at all about ridculing those who leave for the sake of Jesus.

But Peter warned us that we should not think it strange when suffering besets us...! It's taking the arrows for Christ, really.

Colleen
Dennis
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Posted on Wednesday, January 05, 2005 - 4:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It is generally true that the longer one is connected with a cultic group the harder it is to leave. Also, older people tend to make less changes in the lives and become more set in their ways. However, in our case, Sylvia and I (both in our 50s) just reminisced on this the other day. We continue to view it as an extraordinary miracle that we ever left Adventism officially in 2000. We praise and thank God continually for having called us out Adventism in His own time. Collectively, Sylvia and I have over 100 years of experience in Adventism. Even a century of legalism could not withstand the irresistable grace of God.

We must continue to treat all our SDA friends and relatives as potential Christ-followers. I just received an email from a business executive that grew up Adventist. His question to me was, "How can I be born again?" Obviously, the Holy Spirit is speaking to many SDA-oriented people. This person told me that he felt more comfortable in discussing this with me than with someone that never had an SDA background. He claims that some Evangelicals were puzzled as to understanding his spiritual needs. In truth, we can often help our Adventist friends and relatives like nobody else can. What a solemn calling!

Personally, I have a compulsion to reach Seventh-day Adventists with the Gospel of Jesus Christ. God has placed this burden on my heart. My heart cries for their deceptive enslavement. Sylvia and I were certainly the most unlikely candidates to be willing to allow God to transform our lives. We have many experiences to relate about our witnessing to Adventists. I remember a moderator in a SDA chatroom telling me, "Dennis, don't talk about the Sabbath anymore!"


Best of all, we have already seen many positive results directly related to our ministry. As most of you already know, one must have very "thick skin" to minister to Seventh-day Adventists. Their personal attacks are unrelenting. They even try to assault your identity in Christ. They have no shame. Indeed, is not easy for so-called "enemies" to witness to a group of people that claim to know everything. Let's continue to earnestly pray for our SDA friends, acquaintances, and relatives.

Dennis J. Fischer
Flyinglady
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Posted on Wednesday, January 05, 2005 - 6:34 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I am not sure what God has for me as a former. I do want to warn non SDAs about SDA beliefs, in a nice way. I also have a burden for unchurched formers, like practically all family, that they get to know Christ. I do not have any contact with SDAs since I quit going to church. I receive a newsletter from the SDA church in Las Vegas and I was going to write and ask that I be taken off their mailing list. But I think I will like to receive the news letter so I will know what to pray for about SDAs locally. Maybe this is what God wants for me. He will let me know as time goes on. And Dennis, I was 63 when I decided not to rejoin the SDA church. God had been preparing my mind for more than 30 years so that when He presented me with the truth, I would be able to let go. Praise God for that. He is awesome.
Diana
Colleentinker
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Post Number: 1189
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Posted on Wednesday, January 05, 2005 - 9:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dennis, you are so right, and God is certainly using you in unique way.

Diana, I also feel a need to let non-SDAs know the truth as well as Adventists. I just received an email from a person (non-SDA) who has written an outstanding article re: the importance of sound doctrine. We're going to use in in Proclamation. He also sent me a MS of a paper he wrote in response to an Adventist friend who had been persistently trying to convert him to the Sabbath.

His paper is a very detailed, historical look at the "law" in the Bible, and he concludes that Jesus is the Living Torah and the entire text of the NT is the "law" we live by as Christians. It's a fascinating, well-thought-out article. In corresponding about it, he commented that while he thinks SDAs have cultic aspects, he would not classify them with Mormons and JWs.

Well, I see it differently. I think I'll put him on the Proc. mailing list...

It still surprises me that it's so hard to get Christians to believe us about what we know to be true!

Colleen
Susan_2
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Posted on Wednesday, January 05, 2005 - 10:02 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

At the Lutheran churches I've attended the Lutherans honestly believe the SDA church is a mainstream Protestant church only with a few different ways, such as meeting for services on Saturdays and some know the food rules, that's about it. The only person where I attend who fully undersands the intriciatices (sp?) of the SDA church like I do is one man who attends here who also was raised SDA. Between me and him we frequently have to explain different SDA beliefs and practices to the Lutherans. Most don't know the SDA church has their private profit. Valerie, it's great that yu found a church where the pastor used to be SDA. This is good because then if you aren't sure of something he can let you know if it's Bible or SDA doctrine.
Dd
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Posted on Wednesday, January 05, 2005 - 10:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Colleen,
My husband and I listened to an interesting interview yesterday on the radio. I don't even know what channel it was...I wish I did because I think we need to get you on this talk show! Anyway...it was a Mormon fellow talking about his transition from his many generational Mormon beliefs. It sounded just like a SDA experience! Exactly. From family rejection to feelings of guilt and fear. It was very, very interesting. It sounds like he has a ministry much like you and Dennis (though, I am not sure it is via the internet - we missed a great deal of the interview and only caught the last 7-8 minutes or so). He talked about the importance of supporting "former" Mormons on their transitions much like the support and encouragement we on this forum need in dealing with all the different aspects of our departure.
Praisegod
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Posted on Thursday, January 06, 2005 - 5:50 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yes, you can talk all you want about Adventism being a mainstream Christian denomination. But when you see how similar our experience of leaving is to those of more known cults, it becomes obvious the demonic nature of the guilt-based teachings.

It would be great to get Colleen or Dennis or others of our articulate speakers on air in some form. (TV-radio) But my concern is that first of all, we have to step up the plate and continue to teach and train pastors and leaders whom God puts in our path. I agree with Susan, SDAs are thought of as a bit eccentric, but otherwise normal Christianity. In light of that, would any broadcast touch the subject? Any one ever broached the subject with broadcasters?

Praise God...
Melissa
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Posted on Thursday, January 06, 2005 - 7:51 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

To me, it's where the rubber meets the road. They can try to say they're like us "evangelicals", (though B would never want to be called evangelical), reality is they would never go to church with "us". Unless and until they see their church as interchangeable with "our" church, it's us and them and that makes me put them in a cult. There is some identification by denomination out here in mainstream land, but not in the same tone as in adventism. So, when words are set aside, and actions speak, actions themselves prove they aren't "like" us as most would never consider going to a worship service with us in or venue on that beastly day. That's my experience anyway.
Melissa
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Posted on Thursday, January 06, 2005 - 7:53 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

correction....

...in OUR venue.....
Colleentinker
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Posted on Thursday, January 06, 2005 - 8:45 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

You're right, Melissa and Dd.

Dale Ratzlaff has had a few radio appearnces on a Christian station in Missouri, I think it is, that does see the need to expose Adventism.

I don't think most of the major Christian stations in signficant markets would be willing to really touch the subject, although I may be wrong.

I just cannot forget the event in 1997 when Hank Hanagraaf had Mark Martin on his show. He took calls, and Mark even went into a direct rsponse to a defensive challenge from an Adventist caller re: the Sabbath. (Those of you who ever read the posts on some of the other Christian forums dealing with Adventism will have a CLEAR idea how arrogant and stubborn and RIGHT they can sound!)

Mark said the show went really well, and Hank was definitely backing him up. He even promised that he would run a series of five of his shows in February of 1998 featuring Adventism.

Those five shows never happened. Meanwhile, Hank's whole tone about Adventism changed. Several people sent him current material about Adventism, both from the SDA presses and from formers. One person I know contacted him, learned he would be at a certain place on a cedrtain date, and personally handed him a stack of pertinent material to read. Others wrote/emailed him.

In short, he defends Adventism now as a heterodox Christian church (meaning they have a few unorthodox practices) but should be considered brothers in Christ.

After quite a bit of effort on the part of many people to communicate with Hank and get a real response from him about what was happening--and getting nothing back except pre-written responses by his staff, one well-known former wondered aloud if the Adventists had perhaps gotten to Hank--perhaps paid him off or made some other under the table deal--to get him to support them.

In other words, it might be hard to get a lot of stations to do programs about Adventism. On the other hand, more and more people are leaving, and more and more is becoming known. Perhaps the day will come...

Colleen
Jeremy
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Posted on Thursday, January 06, 2005 - 10:43 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hank Hanegraaff's statement on Seventh-day Adventism is simply horrifying. If anyone wants to read it, it's available here: http://www.equip.org/free/CP0602.pdf. Does he really not know that SDAs believe the Sabbath is the seal of God, Sunday-keeping is mark of the beast, and keeping the Sabbath (and the Ten Commandments) is necessary for salvation?? Of course a lot of them will SAY they believe in salvation by grace through faith, but Hank should know better than to just believe that they do, when he himself talks about how Mormons use Christian terms but mean something heretical by them.

Here is the product description of a cassette tape about Mormonism that Hank sells: "Since some evangelical and Mormon scholars have argued that the lines that have historically divided Christianity and Mormonism have nearly been obliterated, Hank uses the acronym M-O-R-M-O-N to clearly show that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints uses Christian terminology to spread a destructive and unbiblical message."

It's exactly the same with Adventism. I have to wonder if they are really that good at deceiving Hank, or if there is some other reason why he defends them.

Jeremy
Chris
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Posted on Thursday, January 06, 2005 - 11:18 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I think that one of the other philosophical items that keeps Hank from being appropriately tough on SDAs is that he essentially agrees with them on issues like the Law, the Covenants, the 10 commandments, and the Sabbath.

Based on my understanding of what Hank has said to callers, he believes:

1) The Law can be divided in civil, ceremonial, and moral aspects. Only the civil and ceremonial aspects were fulfilled and abrogated. The moral aspects of the Law are binding today.

3) The 10 commandments are part of the "Moral Law" and are the standard by which Christians live.

2) Making a clear distinction between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant creates a false dichotomy. All the moral aspects of the Old Covenant are incorporated into the New Covenant (inlcuding the 10 commandments). Even many of the more ceremonial aspects can been seen as "principles" that form a baseline for Christian behavior (tithing would be an example).

3) Although Christians aren't commanded to abstain from unclean foods, according to Hank, "many of us do" for health reasons.

4) The 4th commandment is binding on Christians today, but overtime God has changed the emphasis of the Sabbath. At one time the Sabbath emphasized creation, later it emphasized freedom from Egypt, in the church age God has placed the emphasis of the Sabbath on the resurrection.

I'm not attacking Hank, I like listening to him even though there are many topics I disagree with him on, but with views like these it is no wonder that Hank is highly sympathetic to SDAs.

Chris
Loneviking
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Posted on Thursday, January 06, 2005 - 11:39 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well, this last Tuesday at the mens Bible study class, I began what will be at least a 2 month study of Cults/Sects and False Teachings. I began with Adventism.

What is surprising is how many Christians figure that, except for a few oddball doctrines, they are othodox! I quickly wrecked that notion!

I really believe that one of the great callings for us, as formers, is to get the word out about SDA's. Over on Christianity.com several of us formers have really opened some folks eyes as to what SDA's teach. The SDA's over there keep saying that the SDA's don't teach this or that, that belief in E.G.White isn't required, that E.G. White has no doctrinal authority. Every time they do that, there are SDA sources to quote from that disprove them. In the process, plenty of everyday Christians come to understand just how UN-Orthodox SDA's are!

One thing I wonder about with the big controversy over the Old and New Covenant. Could it be that somehow this will be tied into an end time deception? Could God have allowed the SDA church to put together it's false doctrine, and allow us to come out of Adventism with a clear picture of the difference between the two covenants, to protect the church at large? I really don't know, but I do wonder about it.....

Bill
Colleentinker
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Posted on Thursday, January 06, 2005 - 5:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Your question about the covenants is interesting, Bill. You're right--the Christian church has great confusion about them. Intersting thought...

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